PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Jaybird180 on June 14, 2016, 09:17:00 AM
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http://newobserveronline.com/another-holocaust-survivor-hoax-exposed/
Yet another famous “Holocaust survivor” in the US, 90-year-old Joseph Hirt, who has spent fifteen years lecturing schools about his “escape from Auschwitz,” has been shown to be a fantasist liar who invented everything.
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What's your point?
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http://newobserveronline.com/another-holocaust-survivor-hoax-exposed/...
Do you deny that the Holocaust occurred?
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What's your point?
Because "Jooos."
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I knew some real holocaust survivors when I was a kid. Their stories were really awful. A pity this guy lied about something like that to get attention.
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et another famous “Holocaust survivor” in the US, 90-year-old Joseph Hirt, who has spent fifteen years lecturing schools about his “escape from Auschwitz,” has been shown to be a fantasist liar who invented everything.
Was his name Brian Williams?
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http://newobserveronline.com/another-holocaust-survivor-hoax-exposed/...
Sometimes I pity you.
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What's your point?
Do you deny that the Holocaust occurred?
Come on, JB. We have some questions we'd like you to address.
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Finally had a chance to read the article
He also said he came “face to face with the so-called Angel of Death, Dr. Josef Mengele, while at Auschwitz,” and that he had also “attended the Olympics in 1936 in Berlin with his father where he saw Adolf Hitler refuse to shake hands with American Olympian Jesse Owens. ‘The thing is that made me a witness to history. I was there. I saw it,’ Hirt said.”....
Reid also said Hirt falsely claimed that he attended the 1936 Olympics in Germany and was sitting close enough to hear Hitler disparage gold medalist Jesse Owens, something that all historians now know did not happen.
Yes, it is now known that Jesse Owens had a photograph (now lost) of Hitler shaking his hand out of public view.
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Come on, JB. We have some questions we'd like you to address.
Although I'm somewhat a WWII buff I'm no expert on Nazi Germany. But if your questions are answerable and lead to us all gaining knowledge then I'll go along.
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Sometimes I pity you.
Your comments have a value below any acceptable threshold. If I could delete it, I would.
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Although I'm somewhat a WWII buff I'm no expert on Nazi Germany. But if your questions are answerable and lead to us all gaining knowledge then I'll go along.
The questions are directly related to your opinion on this matter so they should be answerable, if you wish to answer.
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Never known you to hold your proverbial tongue.
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Never known you to hold your proverbial tongue.
And Iv'e never know you to do an Aunt Peggy-level drive by.
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Never known you to hold your proverbial tongue.
I think he is trying to ask you if you are a holocaust denier. There are those that believe that the holocaust was all faked and made up for propaganda reasons.
As to the article in the OP, there are lots of folks over the years who have falsely claimed to be war heroes, decorated veterans, high ranking military, etc just to get attention and respect from other people. This is the same phenomenon.
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http://newobserveronline.com/another-holocaust-survivor-hoax-exposed/...
Guys have claimed to be airline pilots when they only had a private pilot's license. It doesn't mean that there are no airline.
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Guys have claimed to be airline pilots when they only had a private pilot's license. It doesn't mean that there are no airline.
or.... Guys have claimed to be women. Thank God that doesn't mean there are no women.
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or.... Guys have claimed to be women. Thank God that doesn't mean there are no women.
Sometimes (just sometimes), I have to disagree with this. ;)
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Your comments have a value below any acceptable threshold. If I could delete it, I would.
Of course you would. Progressives LOVE censorship.
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And Iv'e never know you to do an Aunt Peggy-level drive by.
I don't know what that means, but for some reason it's funny.
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I think he is trying to ask you if you are a holocaust denier. There are those that believe that the holocaust was all faked and made up for propaganda reasons.
As to the article in the OP, there are lots of folks over the years who have falsely claimed to be war heroes, decorated veterans, high ranking military, etc just to get attention and respect from other people. This is the same phenomenon.
I have no reason to think it didn't happen. I do know that there are people that advance that idea and they get pushback.
I also know that the pushback has been so strong that in some countries it's illegal to question the official storyline. I don't agree with that - scholarly dialogue should always be open to allow the ability to revisit any topic and reinterpret the posterity.
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I don't know what that means, but for some reason it's funny.
Post an article and run. Don't answer questions. Post another article and run. Don't answer questions.
That was her style.
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Of course you would. Progressives LOVE censorship.
It's not censorship that I like. I loathe personal attacks devoid of any real value; and that's all you seem to do. You attack the messenger and fail to address the message. Get with the program or get out!
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Post an article and run. Don't answer questions. Post another article and run. Don't answer questions.
That was her style.
Oh, I'm actually at work and working...I'd forgotten about the thread and didn't want to comment until I'd had a chance to read the article. But I did want to see some opinions before commenting which is why I posted it and intended to come back to it later; later was just longer than I expected.
AND the fact that I didn't yet see anything meriting a comment...
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I have no reason to think it didn't happen. I do know that there are people that advance that idea and they get pushback.
I also know that the pushback has been so strong that in some countries it's illegal to question the official storyline. I don't agree with that - scholarly dialogue should always be open to allow the ability to revisit any topic and reinterpret the posterity.
They get push back because they are either bat shit crazy, Neo Nazis, or anti semetic Jew haters. This didn't happen 1000 years ago, it is very recent. There is mountains of physical evidence including official Nazi documents, equipment, work orders and the camps themselves. There were thousands of eye witnesses from the US, Britain, Russia and Germany upon liberation. There were thousands of documented survivors. Remember, these people were tattooed with serial numbers so they do correspond to the paperwork. Lastly, there are thousands of photographs and films.
If somebody can make a valid argument that the holocaust didn't happen, then they could also make the argument that WWII didn't happen and it would be just as valid.
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They get push back because they are either bat shit crazy, Neo Nazis, or anti semetic Jew haters. This didn't happen 1000 years ago, it is very recent. There is mountains of physical evidence including official Nazi documents, equipment, work orders and the camps themselves. There were thousands of eye witnesses from the US, Britain, Russia and Germany upon liberation. There were thousands of documented survivors. Remember, these people were tattooed with serial numbers so they do correspond to the paperwork. Lastly, there are thousands of photographs and films.
If somebody can make a valid argument that the holocaust didn't happen, then they could also make the argument that WWII didn't happen and it would be just as valid.
I think one of the arguments of the, as you say "bat shit crazy" people is that the scale of the holocaust was exaggerated. IMO that's worthy of a scholarly debate. Once it's debated and if it prevails, then the motive for the hyperbole (which is another word for lie) can be ascertained.
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I guess whether or not there were any moon landings is also worthy of a scholarly debate.
::)
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I guess whether or not there were any moon landings is also worthy of a scholarly debate.
::)
Your attempt at sarcasm to throw salt on a serious topic of discussion is noted. I had higher esteem for you than this.
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Your attempt at sarcasm to throw salt on a serious topic of discussion is noted. I had higher esteem for you than this.
That's because it's not a serious topic. It is a pathetically transparent attempt to change well documented history.
My dad didn't say much about his WWII experience, but after he died we found a picture he had with a concentration camp prisoner standing next to a gallows. On the back of the picture was one word: "Buchenwald."
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Your attempt at sarcasm to throw salt on a serious topic of discussion is noted. I had higher esteem for you than this.
I think you'll find that most would react unfavorably to a question of whether the Holocaust was exaggerated. This is because the documented truth of it is so horrific that it needs no exaggeration to be one of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated on a people. There is (was, actually) some scholarly debate over whether it should be considered "unique" and set apart from other genocides. But as far as I am aware, people who suggest the facts are significantly overstated, especially with respect to the number of Jews exterminated, are squarely in the realm of Holocaust deniers.
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I think one of the arguments of the, as you say "bat shit crazy" people is that the scale of the holocaust was exaggerated. IMO that's worthy of a scholarly debate. Once it's debated and if it prevails, then the motive for the hyperbole (which is another word for lie) can be ascertained.
Here's the thing, one of the things the Nazis did well was keep records. Once the "final solution to the Jewish problem" was fully implemented and operational, they kept a detailed inventory of all the victims, mostly so they could identify processing problems in the system and become more and more efficient. Spreadsheets of people brought in and "processed" and the associated costs, resources involved. Nearly all of it survived the war and was captured by US, British and Russian forces.
It is true that the victims that were dealt with prior to the death camps and those randomly dispatched by the military, police, paramilitary and ordinary citizens is not accurately known, but many, many people in numerous countries, not all of them Jews, have made it their life's work to piece this stuff together and come up with the best estimates possible for a grand total. There is serious study that has gone into this history and all of it is available for ordinary people to see for themselves.
Let's say the 6 million number is grossly overstated because it's just an estimate put together by a bunch of biased Jews. Would 3 million make it less horrible and more palatable? 2 million? That's why I say the people that deny history and come up with these theories, or claims are either bat shit crazy, or have an agenda.
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I think you'll find that most would react unfavorably to a question of whether the Holocaust was exaggerated. This is because the documented truth of it is so horrific that it needs no exaggeration to be one of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated on a people. There is (was, actually) some scholarly debate over whether it should be considered "unique" and set apart from other genocides. But as far as I am aware, people who suggest the facts are significantly overstated, especially with respect to the number of Jews exterminated, are squarely in the realm of Holocaust deniers.
Here's where a caveat is needed. I'd agree that it was "one of the worst atrocities...", provided that the underlined word is observed. It is being calculated that the African Holocaust may have been in the numbers of 400-600 million lives lost.
To add insult to injury, you "good" people here continue to chant, "get over it", "that was a long time ago", " ancient history"...and my personal favorite: "that's victim mentality" allthewhile (yes, that's a word) keeping the German Holocaust uppermost in your minds and discussions. I say: hypocrite much cognitive dissonance much? I say: you do this to continue to devalue Black Life and justify to yourselves so you can sleep at night at the injustices that we see everyday, right here on American soil, where "All men are Created Equal" GTFOH.
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Here's the thing, one of the things the Nazis did well was keep records. Once the "final solution to the Jewish problem" was fully implemented and operational, they kept a detailed inventory of all the victims, mostly so they could identify processing problems in the system and become more and more efficient. Spreadsheets of people brought in and "processed" and the associated costs, resources involved. Nearly all of it survived the war and was captured by US, British and Russian forces.
It is true that the victims that were dealt with prior to the death camps and those randomly dispatched by the military, police, paramilitary and ordinary citizens is not accurately known, but many, many people in numerous countries, not all of them Jews, have made it their life's work to piece this stuff together and come up with the best estimates possible for a grand total. There is serious study that has gone into this history and all of it is available for ordinary people to see for themselves.
Let's say the 6 million number is grossly overstated because it's just an estimate put together by a bunch of biased Jews. Would 3 million make it less horrible and more palatable? 2 million? That's why I say the people that deny history and come up with these theories, or claims are either bat shit crazy, or have an agenda.
Why only one side would have an agenda?
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It is being calculated that the African Holocaust may have been in the numbers of 400-600 million lives lost.
Huh? Calculated by whom?
Africans are still killing each other (and enslaving each other) at a huge rate. Sometimes genocidal.
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Here's where a caveat is needed. I'd agree that it was "one of the worst atrocities...", provided that the underlined word is observed. It is being calculated that the African Holocaust may have been in the numbers of 400-600 million lives lost.
No caveat is needed since I put the qualifying word there already.
To add insult to injury, you "good" people here continue to chant, "get over it", "that was a long time ago", " ancient history"...and my personal favorite: "that's victim mentality" allthewhile (yes, that's a word) keeping the German Holocaust uppermost in your minds and discussions. I say: hypocrite much cognitive dissonance much? I say: you do this to continue to devalue Black Life and justify to yourselves so you can sleep at night at the injustices that we see everyday, right here on American soil, where "All men are Created Equal" GTFOH.
And I say you're clueless and don't know most (any?) of us. If your belief that the government is using vaccines to give black kids autism is any sign, though, I can't say I'm surprised that you jumped the shark here to a wild and unfounded supposition.
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Here's where a caveat is needed. I'd agree that it was "one of the worst atrocities...", provided that the underlined word is observed. It is being calculated that the African Holocaust may have been in the numbers of 400-600 million lives lost.
To add insult to injury, you "good" people here continue to chant, "get over it", "that was a long time ago", " ancient history"...and my personal favorite: "that's victim mentality" allthewhile (yes, that's a word) keeping the German Holocaust uppermost in your minds and discussions. I say: hypocrite much cognitive dissonance much? I say: you do this to continue to devalue Black Life and justify to yourselves so you can sleep at night at the injustices that we see everyday, right here on American soil, where "All men are Created Equal" GTFOH.
You are pathetic. Who brought up the Holocaust? YOU DID!!! None of US are keeping the Holocaust "upmost in our minds and discussions." But YOU ARE!
And it's interesting that the ACTUAL survivors of the Holocaust have "gotten over it." Certainly it remains in their minds and souls, but it doesn't keep them from fully participating in the mainstream of society, and having a rich and fulfilling life.
Contrast that to the racial identity of American blacks, many of whom cannot trace their lineage to actual slaves, who use slavery of 150-250 years ago as an excuse for their inability as a group to be productive member of society.
Pathetic.
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Huh? Calculated by whom?
Africans are still killing each other at a huge rate. Sometimes genocidal.
http://www.africanholocaust.net/html_ah/holocaustspecial.htm
The African Holocaust represents an existential threat to the peoplehood and agency of African people for the last 500 Years of world history. Africa is the most exploited continent in the history of humanity; more human victim's have been procured from Africa than all the continents of the world combined.
The African Holocaust is the greatest continuing tragedy the world has ever seen. It was also the most impacting social event in the history of humanity. Not only in terms of scale but also in terms of legacy and horror. It is a Holocaust which is constantly denied, mitigated and trivialized. The African Holocaust is white-washed and Africans denied their human value and treated as a people only suitable for slavery.
However, It is estimated that 40 -100 million people were directly affected by slavery via the Atlantic, Arabian and Trans-Saharan routes.
Some historians conclude that the total loss in persons removed, those who died on the arduous march to coastal slave marts and those killed in slave raids, exceeded the 65–75 million inhabitants remaining Africa at the trade's end. Over 10 million died as direct consequences of the Atlantic slave trade alone. But no one knows the exact number
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You are pathetic. Who brought up the Holocaust? YOU DID!!! None of US are keeping the Holocaust "upmost in our minds and discussions." But YOU ARE!
And it's interesting that the ACTUAL survivors of the Holocaust have "gotten over it." Certainly it remains in their minds and souls, but it doesn't keep them from fully participating in the mainstream of society, and having a rich and fulfilling life.
Contrast that to the racial identity of American blacks, many of whom cannot trace their lineage to actual slaves, who use slavery of 150-250 years ago as an excuse for their inability as a group to be productive member of society.
Pathetic.
Get this clear:
It's not chattel slavery that is the problem. That's easy. But when you take away the very identity of a people and then leave them with little recourse to get along in a society that rejects them, you set them up for failure. This wasn't 15-200 years ago, there are still laws on the books today (though many of them were removed as late as the late 1960's) it takes more than one generation to undo the damage done.
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I wonder if Jaybird understands that African slaves were captured and sold by people native to....
wait for it...
Africa.
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I wonder if Jaybird understands that African slaves were captured and sold by people native to....
wait for it...
Africa.
No, that's a "false flag"- LOL
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Why only one side would have an agenda?
The other side with an agenda was the Germans! Seriously, people from all over the world have seen the evidence and see it for what it was, a colossal human tragedy. This includes the Soviets, who really had no love for Jews and absolutely zero interest in a Zionist state in the Middle East.
I am assuming the basis for holocaust skepticism is the state of Israel existing in the lands previously known as a Palestinian territory. I'm guessing the idea is, that by inflating victim counts, that sympathy among western countries would cause them to support the idea of a new Jewish state. However, the Zionist movement was well underway decades before there was a Hitler. With British withdrawal from the region, the Jews living there took advantage of a power vacuum and basically took the area on their own with very little assistance from anyone.
Then after the fighting, western powers found Israel easier to deal with and an anchor point in the Middle East. I suppose there was also a silly idea of spreading democracy and modern thinking in the Middle East. Goofy I know.
Well, anyhow, with or without sympathy and support, the numbers, the evidence, artifacts was and most still is all there for the world to see. The state of Israel no doubt has benefitted from the horrors of the holocaust, but I don't think there is a lot evidence that it was built because of it.
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I wonder if Jaybird understands that African slaves were captured and sold by people native to....
wait for it...
Africa.
Yes, I know that our own sold us to....
Wait for it.....
Whites, Arabs and.....
Wait for it.....
Jews.
Of all the groups who participated, Jews are the only ones that publicly (through representative groups) stood up and denied any involvement or profiteering from the Slave Trade.
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Yes, I know that our own sold us to....
Wait for it.....
Whites, Arabs and.....
Wait for it.....
Jews.
Of all the groups who participated, Jews are the only ones that publicly (through representative groups) stood up and denied any involvement or profiteering from the Slave Trade.
ah yes, the muslims are pissy about the Jews being the chosen people and getting the better inheritance.
pathetic
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Who, today, still practices chattel slavery?
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It's not censorship that I like. I loathe personal attacks devoid of any real value; and that's all you seem to do. You attack the messenger and fail to address the message. Get with the program or get out!
I am waiting for you to declare that the entire black lives matter movement is based on lies because a couple of black students lied about being insulted and abused. Your never ending racist drivel is nothing but sound bites and bullshit, so stop playing the victim sport. It won't wash.
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I think one of the arguments of the, as you say "bat shit crazy" people is that the scale of the holocaust was exaggerated. IMO that's worthy of a scholarly debate. Once it's debated and if it prevails, then the motive for the hyperbole (which is another word for lie) can be ascertained.
That's as worthwhile as debating the existence of the moon and sun.
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That's as worthwhile as debating the existence of the moon and sun.
Or as much of a waste of time in trying to find an original, substantive thought in one of your posts, never mind something that is real and about aviation.
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Or as much of a waste of time in trying to find an original, substantive thought in one of your posts, never mind something that is real and about aviation.
How cute. The progressive is angry at the conservative because he refuses to speak politically correct stupidity and never misses a chance to prove how closed minded and shallow she is.
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Here's where a caveat is needed. I'd agree that it was "one of the worst atrocities...", provided that the underlined word is observed. It is being calculated that the African Holocaust may have been in the numbers of 400-600 million lives lost.
The difference is Africans were not stripped of their property and citizenship and herded in to concentration camps just because they were black. I do agree that enslaving them was one of the world's great wrongs, and that the conditions under which they were kept were utterly deplorable. However, African slaves gave birth to a race of people that have now populated many nations of the world including ours. The victims of the Holocaust just died.
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The difference is Africans were not stripped of their property and citizenship and herded in to concentration camps just because they were black. I do agree that enslaving them was one of the world's great wrongs, and that the conditions under which they were kept were utterly deplorable. However, African slaves gave birth to a race of people that have now populated many nations of the world including ours. The victims of the Holocaust just died.
I may have to agree with Jaybird. The institution of what we think of as black slavery was probably the worst atrocitiy in modern times.
But there were examples of Slavery going back into history that may have been worse. And the fact that much of the black slavery of the past few centuries was perpetrated upon blacks by blacks doesn't mitigate the damage that was done.
And it doesn't excuse some of the attitudes and behavior we see today. At some point, wounds need to heal. Most whites are making an active effort to help heal the wounds. Of course though, racism will never be eliminated in humans of any color. But blacks need to make organized and concerted efforts to help heal the wounds. They have to stop picking the scab.
Here is one example of the kinds of things that can help:
http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/20160719/prayer-service-in-daytona-to-honor-support-local-police
In light of the recent killings of policemen in Dallas and Baton Rouge, local clergy will hold a gathering to show law enforcement that they are supported and appreciated.
A prayer service is scheduled for Thursday night at 7 at Master's Domain Church of God In Christ, 511 Fremont Ave.
The service will be held by the Black Clergy Alliance and will include praying over attending officers and laying hands on them.
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ah yes, the muslims are pissy about the Jews being the chosen people and getting the better inheritance.
pathetic
That's a Theological (and archeological and historical) argument, to which I have an opposing view. But we also need a working definition of "Jew" in order to properly discuss.
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I may have to agree with Jaybird. The institution of what we think of as black slavery was probably the worst atrocitiy in modern times.
But there were examples of Slavery going back into history that may have been worse. And the fact that much of the black slavery of the past few centuries was perpetrated upon blacks by blacks doesn't mitigate the damage that was done.
And it doesn't excuse some of the attitudes and behavior we see today. At some point, wounds need to heal. Most whites are making an active effort to help heal the wounds. Of course though, racism will never be eliminated in humans of any color. But blacks need to make organized and concerted efforts to help heal the wounds. They have to stop picking the scab.
Here is one example of the kinds of things that can help:
http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/20160719/prayer-service-in-daytona-to-honor-support-local-police
Chattel Slavery (which has existed in many cultures) is not the core issue expressed in grievance. It's the total annihilation of our identity as a people and it is THAT that is at the root of why we cannot make substantive progress, or more properly - that progress is easily derailed.
It is NOT true that we have made NO progress since 1863 in America, we have. If I have errantly understated that, I correct my error. More properly, there always seems to be setbacks cloaked in benevolence in this country, because we don't know what is really in our best interest and we often choose wrongly.
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Chattel Slavery (which has existed in many cultures) is not the core issue expressed in grievance. It's the total annihilation of our identity as a people and it is THAT that is at the root of why we cannot make substantive progress, or more properly - that progress is easily derailed.
It is NOT true that we have made NO progress since 1863 in America, we have. If I have errantly understated that, I correct my error. More properly, there always seems to be setbacks cloaked in benevolence in this country, because we don't know what is really in our best interest and we often choose wrongly.
Understood. To avoid any further confusion, benevolence is now finished. Good luck.
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That's a Theological (and archeological and historical) argument, to which I have an opposing view. But we also need a working definition of "Jew" in order to properly discuss.
A member of the Jewish faith is either born to a Jewish mother or converted under the supervision of an ordained rabbi.
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Chattel Slavery (which has existed in many cultures) is not the core issue expressed in grievance. It's the total annihilation of our identity as a people and it is THAT that is at the root of why we cannot make substantive progress, or more properly - that progress is easily derailed.
It is NOT true that we have made NO progress since 1863 in America, we have. If I have errantly understated that, I correct my error. More properly, there always seems to be setbacks cloaked in benevolence in this country, because we don't know what is really in our best interest and we often choose wrongly.
If I understand what you are saying, I agree completely. Liberal white guilt is killing your people. Their patronizing and condescending attitude that infers the idea that a black man cannot overcome hurdles without their help is a self fulfilling prophesy. Given the resources, and the incentive, I believe black people can succeed in much larger numbers than we are seeing today.
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Chattel Slavery (which has existed in many cultures) is not the core issue expressed in grievance. It's the total annihilation of our identity as a people and it is THAT that is at the root of why we cannot make substantive progress, or more properly - that progress is easily derailed.
Could you flesh that out for me. What do you mean by the "total annihilation of our identity as a people"? When did that happen and is it still ongoing in your view?
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The difference is Africans were not stripped of their property and citizenship and herded in to concentration camps just because they were black. I do agree that enslaving them was one of the world's great wrongs, and that the conditions under which they were kept were utterly deplorable. However, African slaves gave birth to a race of people that have now populated many nations of the world including ours. The victims of the Holocaust just died.
Thatt is quite true and being swept under the progressive rug of political correctness.
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Could you flesh that out for me. What do you mean by the "total annihilation of our identity as a people"? When did that happen and is it still ongoing in your view?
There are volumes on the subject of how the African was broken and turned into a Nigger. This was necessary to make a perpetual slave. Slavery is no longer physical but it is economic in its tie. Black and White are subject to its yoke but the social order was arranged to make what the Kerner Commission called "a permanent underclass". That study outlined several steps that MUST be taken to avoid what we see today and none of its recommendations were taken. What do you call that? Willful negligence?
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The difference is Africans were not stripped of their property and citizenship and herded in to concentration camps just because they were black. I do agree that enslaving them was one of the world's great wrongs, and that the conditions under which they were kept were utterly deplorable. However, African slaves gave birth to a race of people that have now populated many nations of the world including ours. The victims of the Holocaust just died.
I'm going to give you an opportunity to clarify that.
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I'm going to give you an opportunity to clarify that.
Of course. First, the slavery to which Africans were (and still are) subjected was horrible. I won't deny that. However, you yourself are likely a result of that transgression. Thus the wrong done your ancestors still resulted in something decent.
When my own relatives were fed into the gas chambers at Treblinka they simply died.
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Of course. First, the slavery to which Africans were (and still are) subjected was horrible. I won't deny that. However, you yourself are likely a result of that transgression. Thus the wrong done your ancestors still resulted in something decent.
When my own relatives were fed into the gas chambers at Treblinka they simply died.
1. There are many of my cousins that aren't here in the same manner (albeit not gas).
2. I don't see the connection between the original statement and your clarification
Perhaps I'm missing something?
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Perhaps I'm missing something?
You are indeed. Your ancestors were pressed into slavery, though many were pressed in by their own race cognitives, and many others by Arab traders. By the way, Muslims are still the only people who practice the sort of chattel slavery that occurred here in previous centuries. There are other forms of slavery practiced in the West, but they are illegal and practiced in a very different fashion.
Your ancestors were valued for the work they could do. That is why they were oppressed, so they could work of those more socioeconomically well off. They were't killed off in an industrial capacity just because of their heritage. That's what happened to my people. There is a profound difference, and if you cannot recognize that you should really think about some inner reflection.
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You are indeed. Your ancestors were pressed into slavery, though many were pressed in by their own race cognitives, and many others by Arab traders. By the way, Muslims are still the only people who practice the sort of chattel slavery that occurred here in previous centuries. There are other forms of slavery practiced in the West, but they are illegal and practiced in a very different fashion.
Your ancestors were valued for the work they could do. That is why they were oppressed, so they could work of those more socioeconomically well off. They were't killed off in an industrial capacity just because of their heritage. That's what happened to my people. There is a profound difference, and if you cannot recognize that you should really think about some inner reflection.
Hold on a minute cowboy! Don't start waving the Anti-Semite flag yet!
Yes, there's a difference between the two events, no introspection required. I've been erudited on it my whole life.
With that said and what's somewhat not allowed (even amongst scholars) are the economic policies that drove Nazi Germany's leadership to head-nod. I've not read the whole of Mein Kampf (or maybe it was another book), but the small sections that I've read made an attempt to outline specific grievances that the author felt merited (indiscriminate) expulsion. As a student of history and human anthropology, I wanted to understand this aspect of WWII in context. My study of that is yet complete.
I don't think gassing people was the right move (maybe I should have started the post with this statement?). FWIW, I personally took a delegation of University of Islam students (Elementary through HS) to the Holocaust museum in DC in about 1994-ish. Although it wasn't discussed in MSM, certainly there was an impact in the Museum's leadership as evidenced by the conversations we had - but that's a topic for another time. It was unfortunate that it didn't encourage further dialogue that could have abated the 3rd party accusation wars of the 90's. Knowing what I know now, I would have promoted that action better and possibly forced discussion.
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There are volumes on the subject of how the African was broken and turned into a Nigger. This was necessary to make a perpetual slave. Slavery is no longer physical but it is economic in its tie. Black and White are subject to its yoke but the social order was arranged to make what the Kerner Commission called "a permanent underclass". That study outlined several steps that MUST be taken to avoid what we see today and none of its recommendations were taken. What do you call that? Willful negligence?
I don't have time in my life to read 400+ pages of that report which is nearly 50 years old. I am sure it has some nuggets of truth and there are also criticisms that it assumed too much about the effect of racism. I don't know if you can break a people. You can break a person, but I don't see any examples of a broken people. Even if Africa, where tribalism may not be called racism, the horrible atrocities committed by one tribe against another does not seem to have broken any people.
While I recognize that there are racial -- probably even more important economic -- barriers to succeeding. However, it seems to be that even a black kid growing up in the inner city projects has more of a chance than most of the kids in Nigeria, etc. So I just don't understand how African-Americans can be "broken", 50 years after institutionalized slavery/serfdom ended.
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I don't have time in my life to read 400+ pages of that report which is nearly 50 years old. I am sure it has some nuggets of truth and there are also criticisms that it assumed too much about the effect of racism. I don't know if you can break a people. You can break a person, but I don't see any examples of a broken people. Even if Africa, where tribalism may not be called racism, the horrible atrocities committed by one tribe against another does not seem to have broken any people.
While I recognize that there are racial -- probably even more important economic -- barriers to succeeding. However, it seems to be that even a black kid growing up in the inner city projects has more of a chance than most of the kids in Nigeria, etc. So I just don't understand how African-Americans can be "broken", 50 years after institutionalized slavery/serfdom ended.
If you think what you see is normal, then perhaps you need a new paradigm.
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There are volumes on the subject of how the African was broken and turned into a Nigger. This was necessary to make a perpetual slave. Slavery is no longer physical but it is economic in its tie. Black and White are subject to its yoke but the social order was arranged to make what the Kerner Commission called "a permanent underclass". That study outlined several steps that MUST be taken to avoid what we see today and none of its recommendations were taken. What do you call that? Willful negligence?
😡
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If you think what you see is normal, then perhaps you need a new paradigm.
I really haven't a clue as to what you mean by that.
What I see is not normal. What we have in America is not normal. Normal is famine, civil wars, and oppressive dictators. Where do minorities have a better chance than here? While we can and should be better, is there a model that does do better?
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Hold on a minute cowboy! Don't start waving the Anti-Semite flag yet!
I am not and have not. I have simply made a very, very clear and important delineation between events.
Yes, there's a difference between the two events, no introspection required. I've been erudited on it my whole life.
Then the source of your questioning becomes less than transparent.
With that said and what's somewhat not allowed (even amongst scholars) are the economic policies that drove Nazi Germany's leadership to head-nod. I've not read the whole of Mein Kampf (or maybe it was another book), but the small sections that I've read made an attempt to outline specific grievances that the author felt merited (indiscriminate) expulsion. As a student of history and human anthropology, I wanted to understand this aspect of WWII in context. My study of that is yet complete.
There is no context that excuses genocide.
I don't think gassing people was the right move
That's awfully charitable of you.
FWIW, I personally took a delegation of University of Islam students (Elementary through HS) to the Holocaust museum in DC in about 1994-ish. Although it wasn't discussed in MSM, certainly there was an impact in the Museum's leadership as evidenced by the conversations we had - but that's a topic for another time. It was unfortunate that it didn't encourage further dialogue that could have abated the 3rd party accusation wars of the 90's. Knowing what I know now, I would have promoted that action better and possibly forced discussion.
I will not accuse you of antisemitism, but one of its last homes in the US is within the African American community. You know this is true was well as I. It actually surprises me to a large degree. The Jewish story is one of subjugation, within the religion it is held that God delivered the Jewish people from bondage. A religious Jew can do no less for other subjugated peoples, it is commanded by God. That's one of the reasons Jews were at the forefront of the civil rights movement in the US.
Moreover, Judaism and Islam are far more similar than any other religions. We venerate many of the same prophets (save Mohammed), largely share dietary restrictions, and even share hold languages. A good example is the name of the President, Barak. This is an arabic word meaning "blessed". In Hebrew it is Baruch, and proceeds most Jewish prayers.
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I really haven't a clue as to what you mean by that.
What I see is not normal. What we have in America is not normal. Normal is famine, civil wars, and oppressive dictators. Where do minorities have a better chance than here? While we can and should be better, is there a model that does do better?
I completely agree.