PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Jaybird180 on May 09, 2016, 04:56:20 PM
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/there-was-no-wave-of-compassion-when-addicts-were-hooked-on-crack/
I have mixed feelings about the way the current Opiod scourge is being handled.
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/there-was-no-wave-of-compassion-when-addicts-were-hooked-on-crack/
I have mixed feelings about the way the current Opiod scourge is being handled.
The problem on looking at the change in the way things are handled 30 years ago with now, through a racial lens, is that there are a number of other significant differences. One is that crack was never legal and had no medicinal purpose. Two, the country has slowly been coming to an understanding that the War on Drugs is not all it was cracked up to be. IMO, it has been a financial and civil rights disaster, but I don't think most of the rest of the country agrees with me yet. Three, the sheer numbers of people with opioid addictions rules out locking them all up as there are literally not enough prison cells to get anywhere near locking everyone up.
All that being said, I am sure that there was a racial element in all of it, but to focus solely on that is to distort the picture. However, if that is what it takes to get the politicians to rethink the War on Drugs and the unnecessarily harsh sentences for minor drug users, then it will have some good.
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What a crock. Not a single mention of pushers and dealers (who were and are locked up for dealing crack, or heroin) and users (who were not locked up just for being users.)
Leave it to Judy Woodruff not to make that point.
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The problem on looking at the change in the way things are handled 30 years ago with now, through a racial lens, is that there are a number of other significant differences. One is that crack was never legal and had no medicinal purpose. Two, the country has slowly been coming to an understanding that the War on Drugs is not all it was cracked up to be. IMO, it has been a financial and civil rights disaster, but I don't think most of the rest of the country agrees with me yet. Three, the sheer numbers of people with opioid addictions rules out locking them all up as there are literally not enough prison cells to get anywhere near locking everyone up.
All that being said, I am sure that there was a racial element in all of it, but to focus solely on that is to distort the picture. However, if that is what it takes to get the politicians to rethink the War on Drugs and the unnecessarily harsh sentences for minor drug users, then it will have some good.
Opiod was rampant in the Black Community in the 60s-70s in the form of Heroin and nobody cared. To solve the 'not enough jails' problem, they privatized the prison industry and made a profit off of blacks going to jail. To ensure that the plot of the crack epidemic took root, the 80s nightly news showed Black crack babies and "crack heads", and then the latest robberies and murders over the drug wars. Sentencing regulations were disparate - mandatory minimum sentencing for possession of crack but judicial discretion for possession of powdered cocaine (the main ingredient of which crack is made).
You know that what I'm saying is the truth.
Since we're not growing opioids in America (to my knowledge), how is it getting into the country, except by the government's permission (aka feigned inability to prevent)? How did Black America get addicted to Crack? Ask LtCol Oliver North, it's in his book, Under Fire. With orders from the Commander in Chief, drugs were sold in major black cities to raise money for a foreign war that Congress didn't appropriate for nor approve. It became known as the Iran-Contra Affair. Left out of the nightly news was the drug trafficking in Los Angeles and DC that was part of their economic cycle.
Two, the country has slowly been coming to an understanding that the War on Drugs is not all it was cracked up to be.
While I hope that's the full and complete answer, I need a bit more convincing that it is the full and complete answer. Call me skeptical.
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Horse Manure
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Opiod was rampant in the Black Community in the 60s-70s in the form of Heroin and nobody cared.
Lots packed in here. I will take that one first. Heroin use today differs a bit in the public perception because people are getting into it because they got hooked on the prescription painkillers that were prescribed by their doctor. When the doctors cut them off or the prescription drug becomes too expensive or they loss medical coverage, heroin becomes a cheaper alternative.
To solve the 'not enough jails' problem, they privatized the prison industry and made a profit off of blacks going to jail.
Doubtless tempting to look at this as entirely a racial problem, but I lived through that era in a very white, northern city. The narrative there was that it as white, hippie, trash doing this stuff. While that does not negate a racial element, it also tells me that there is a class element overlaying it. The class element may be why we are more alarmed now as this addiction path is starting in the middle class.
To ensure that the plot of the crack epidemic took root, the 80s nightly news showed Black crack babies and "crack heads", and then the latest robberies and murders over the drug wars. Sentencing regulations were disparate - mandatory minimum sentencing for possession of crack but judicial discretion for possession of powdered cocaine (the main ingredient of which crack is made).
Those laws did have a disparate impact on blacks. There is no question about that. It was also wrong, and certainly race was an element, but I think class was likely as big an element as race.
Since we're not growing opioids in America (to my knowledge), how is it getting into the country, except by the government's permission (aka feigned inability to prevent)?
Prescription opioids like hydrocodone and oxycodone are synthetic. They are made in labs. The opioids that are natural there are pharmaceutical firms that have a license to import the raw ingredients or perhaps they grow it here.
The hysteria about it is somewhat interesting to me and I think that to the degree that this addiction is a real problem it is driven as much by economic factors as the drug itself. When I had my shoulder reconstructed I was taking enough of that stuff to stun a small horse. If it were that addictive I should be under a bridge with a heroin needle stuck in me. As the pain subsided I had no interest in the drugs and they got in the way of other things I wanted to do. They talk about this addiction and it seems to be centered in the population who have lost their jobs and lost their hope. My treating this as a problem with the drug, we are ignoring the real problem, IMO.
How did Black America get addicted to Crack? Ask LtCol Oliver North, it's in his book, Under Fire. With orders from the Commander in Chief, drugs were sold in major black cities to raise money for a foreign war that Congress didn't appropriate for nor approve. It became known as the Iran-Contra Affair. Left out of the nightly news was the drug trafficking in Los Angeles and DC that was part of their economic cycle. While I hope that's the full and complete answer, I need a bit more convincing that it is the full and complete answer. Call me skeptical.
I am not sure of the details of the Iran/Contra deal and whether that had an impact on drug availability in the U.S. If your hypothesis is that it was a plot to get African-Americans hooked, you will need some pretty sound evidence. I have my doubts as I don't see the money angle. All real conspiracies have money at the root and I am not sure where there is significant money in it for any such plotters with the power to carry out such a plot. Call me skeptical. :)
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Read North's book. He took credit for his part in increasing drug sales through shell companies. Also take a look at the documentary on Rayful Edmond, he was the drug kingpin on the East Coast. He ran literally semi-trucks full of cash up and down I-95 because he ran into problems that he couldn't get rid of the money fast enough.
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The 'war' on drugs was nothing but a sham program to increase government funding and power. The rest was just a sideshow much like the war on terror.
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The 'war' on drugs was nothing but a sham program to increase government funding and power. The rest was just a sideshow much like the war on terror.
Exactly. Another power, and money grab to expand government. BATFE, DEA, DHS, FBI, CIA, and more all expanded for the war on drugs, and war on terror.
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Right now the number of American's dying each year from opioid overdoes exceeds that number the die in car crashes. The fault is truly all of ours. It is a blindingly simple thing. Everyone cannot live a life free of pain.
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Right now the number of American's dying each year from opioid overdoes exceeds that number the die in car crashes. The fault is truly all of ours. It is a blindingly simple thing. Everyone cannot live a life free of pain.
So what are you saying? Make it legal so that MORE people kill themselves? I'm not sure I follow.
There is a heroin problem in Wisconsin. The saddest part is the high school kids who OD and die before their life barely takes wing.
Illegal drug use is not victimless.
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So what are you saying? Make it legal so that MORE people kill themselves? I'm not sure I follow.
There is a heroin problem in Wisconsin. The saddest part is the high school kids who OD and die before their life barely takes wing.
Illegal drug use is not victimless.
The opioid epidemic has emerged from America's medical establishment, the vast majority of folks (including Prince, by the way) get hooked on these things while being treated for pain. Opioid addiction can lead to heroin abuse.
There are two different things going on. The first is over reliance on opioids by America's doctors. That needs to be stopped within the medical establishment, and I think change is underway. The second is America's War on Drugs. We've decided on interdiction. There are societies who treat heroin addiction by giving addicts a save place to inject, making certain they have clean needles and don't overdose. They can also receive drug cessation therapy at such places. Drug use may not be victimless, but the answer clearly isn't incarceration and interdiction.
Moreover, we as a society have shunned cannabis, yet THC can effectively treat many painful conditions. That, and not everyone can live free of pain.
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The opioid epidemic has emerged from America's medical establishment, the vast majority of folks (including Prince, by the way) get hooked on these things while being treated for pain. Opioid addiction can lead to heroin abuse.
There are two different things going on. The first is over reliance on opioids by America's doctors. That needs to be stopped within the medical establishment, and I think change is underway. The second is America's War on Drugs. We've decided on interdiction. There are societies who treat heroin addiction by giving addicts a save place to inject, making certain they have clean needles and don't overdose. They can also receive drug cessation therapy at such places. Drug use may not be victimless, but the answer clearly isn't incarceration and interdiction.
Moreover, we as a society have shunned cannabis, yet THC can effectively treat many painful conditions. That, and not everyone can live free of pain.
Ok. Thanks.
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The opioid epidemic has emerged from America's medical establishment, the vast majority of folks (including Prince, by the way) get hooked on these things while being treated for pain. Opioid addiction can lead to heroin abuse.
There are two different things going on. The first is over reliance on opioids by America's doctors. That needs to be stopped within the medical establishment, and I think change is underway. The second is America's War on Drugs. We've decided on interdiction. There are societies who treat heroin addiction by giving addicts a save place to inject, making certain they have clean needles and don't overdose. They can also receive drug cessation therapy at such places. Drug use may not be victimless, but the answer clearly isn't incarceration and interdiction.
Moreover, we as a society have shunned cannabis, yet THC can effectively treat many painful conditions. That, and not everyone can live free of pain.
I think that one major point is being overlooked. Addition is worse where unemployment is the highest. When folks don't have a job and run out of unemployment, then they apply for disability, especially when they are old enough that something is hurting. They end up with a prescription for pain meds and not much else to do. One things lead to another. If more folks had a job, there would likely be a lot less addiction to this stuff. Despite the claim that it is universally addictive, there is at least one exception. After my shoulder was rebuilt, I had enough prescription opiates to put down a pony. As the pain went away, so too did any desire for them. In truth, I never got a much of a buzz. Scotch has always worked better for that.
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It's been shown worldwide universal: Crime stats and Poverty stats are directly correlatable.
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There was a study where they gave rats a choice of drugs or a fun rat playground with lots to learn and do. When they had the playground they shunned the drugs. When just confined to a cage they took the drugs. So I think Kristin is right, a large part of the drug problem is people in unpleasant circumstances and the worse the economy, the greater that problem.
Another big contributor, America is unhealthy due to our very bad diet, leading to disorders that lead to the prescriptions. Then when they get addicted and can't afford the legal prescription or are cut off by the growing restrictiveness of getting them, they turn to cheap, available heroin.
And steingar is also right, it's nuts that we don't use the extremely safe and effective natural herb cannabis for certain conditions. The medical establishment also shuns many other safe alternative treatments for example, kava is very effective for anxiety and way, way, way safer than benzodiazepines. Valerian root and many other herbs are extremely effective sleep aids and much safer than Ambien. I could go on and on.
That article is very narrow, with a grain of truth but falls way short of painting the whole picture. The black inner city community has complications that led then and still lead it's inhabitants to "need" to turn to the illegal drug market to earn money and gain status. It's not like the small business community and job opportunities are thriving there. I think it's not so much racism but simply that the larger general community didn't care as much until it hit them personally. That's human nature.
The opiate problem is hitting the wider community now because of the bad economy, bad diet and health, the baby boom bump aging into the sick years of diabetes and surgeries. It's unfair just to say doctors are overprescribing as the main cause when all these more distal reasons exist. Also the legal restrictions contribute to the horrible outcomes. Addicts turn to impure heroin and the needle when cut off from pills. Addicts escalate dosage of pills containing acetaminophen because they're more common than pure opiate pills, and then destroy their livers. Addicts overdose on an opiate usually after getting clean whether by choice or forced cold turkey because of inability to obtain the drug, and then relapsing and mistakenly going immediately back to the old dose. They die from combining opiates with alcohol or benzodiazepines. Addicts sink farther into addiction and die because they don't seek help for fear of jail. Jailing them and giving them a criminal record creates a situation where it's harder for them to get a job when they get out, and now you're back to the unpleasant economic circumstance and the cycle repeats itself.
Cracking down on doctors' supplying pills is ineffective at curbing addiction. However, it is very effective at making it difficult for non-addict pain patients to get the care they need. The addicts just turn to heroin and you will never stop the supply of that until you lock down the borders. That may or may not actually happen under Trump. The solution at its most basic is first to fix the economy in general. Also on my wish list but it'll never happen, is fix our food supply. Healthy food is a happier brain that is less likely to seek drugs. Drug addiction is largely an attempt to self medicate the brain diseases of our culture such as depression, anxiety, and ADHD, all of which begin in childhood when we give our kids sodas from a young age (combined with a genetic predisposition. You could argue that sugar is a far more toxic drug than any opiate in terms of total cost to society from disease, suffering and death.) Next, education and treatment should be the focus, not criminal incarceration. Damaging a person's ability to get and keep a job will never help them stay clean.
Our society is broken right now. Drug addiction is a symptom and a result, not the cause, if the rat experiment is to be believed.
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Good TED Talk, mirroring much of what Rush and others have put forth:
https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en (https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en)
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It's been shown worldwide universal: Crime stats and Poverty stats are directly correlatable.
otoh - wealth does not prevent people from becoming criminals
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There was a study where they gave rats a choice of drugs or a fun rat playground with lots to learn and do. When they had the playground they shunned the drugs. When just confined to a cage they took the drugs. So I think Kristin is right, a large part of the drug problem is people in unpleasant circumstances and the worse the economy, the greater that problem.
counter examples: "stars" like Charlie Sheen, rock "stars"
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The opioid epidemic has emerged from America's medical establishment, the vast majority of folks (including Prince, by the way) get hooked on these things while being treated for pain. Opioid addiction can lead to heroin abuse.
I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I will ask if you have any evidence to back that up. The few addicts I have known, including a loved family member, got hooked because of bad decisions and life choices. They never set foot in a hospital prior to the tragedies that accompany hard drug use. If I had a little less self control and restraint, I would probably have tried to kill the couple that got my sister hooked, and even encouraged her use after she had been arrested and gone through rehab, and re-arrested. It finally took a two year prison sentence (actually a 5 year sentence with early release for good behavior) to get her straightened out.
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I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I will ask if you have any evidence to back that up. The few addicts I have known, including a loved family member, got hooked because of bad decisions and life choices. They never set foot in a hospital prior to the tragedies that accompany hard drug use. If I had a little less self control and restraint, I would probably have tried to kill the couple that got my sister hooked, and even encouraged her use after she had been arrested and gone through rehab, and re-arrested. It finally took a two year prison sentence (actually a 5 year sentence with early release for good behavior) to get her straightened out.
I agree, I don't know if it's the majority of folks. I don't have any statistics but I perceive there are three basic types of addicts. First, the youth who become addicted after experimenting recreationally. Second, people (at any age) whose addictions start with legitimate treatment for an injury or surgery and third, older people who "accidentally" get addicted while being treated for chronic pain conditions. I don't know what the relative percentages are though.
I'm glad your sister got straightened out. I'm of two minds about incarceration, on the one hand it does often force them to get and stay clean but on the other hand, it also can make things worse as I said above, especially for those who cannot afford rehab and treatment. I have a family member who got very involved with an addict, that one didn't turn out well.
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My only real experience with drugs was my uncle who eventually committed suicide by crack OD, which I'm told is very difficult to do, which is why it was ruled suicide. He served in Vietnam as a Huey mechanic. He left as a straight arrow, straight A student and came home a recreational drug user. He became a Metrorail mechanic which was a job he loved so much that I get teary-eyed typing this right now.
Over the years, he used various drugs more (mostly marijuana) until he got addicted to crack.
He fought for years for the VA to help him with his addiction, a standard benefit but they constantly denied his claims and he sought to soothe his rejection with more drugs. When he was finally acknowledged the VA sent him a letter that he was being admitted into the treatment program and was given various benefits to include medical care and a stipend with backpay for the years of administrative fighting - IIRC it was about $60,000. With the first check, he bought a car and gave some money to his 3 daughters (2 were adults), his estranged wife and his mother. His plan with the 2nd check was to use as a downpayment for a Big Rig where he would become a long-haul truck driver, clean up his financial life and send money to his 3rd daughter. He was supposed to drive for a couple years, pay off the truck, buy a home and a Corvette. But alas, it was with this 2nd and large installment check that he bought the crack that killed him. I put a model Corvette on his casket, for that was the closest he'd ever come to his dream car.
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It's been shown worldwide universal: Crime stats and Poverty stats are directly correlatable.
Huh. Is there an inverse correlation between poverty and free will, or "doing the right thing"?
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Huh. Is there an inverse correlation between poverty and free will, or "doing the right thing"?
Huh? Do you live in a bubble?
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Huh? Do you live in a bubble?
That's not an answer.
I'm trying to expose the excuse making for criminal behavior. Frankly I'm sick of it.
Milwaukee has had either a democrat or socialist mayor for over 100 years. In some Milwaukee schools high school graduation rates are 50%. A month ago a girl was shot in the head while sitting with her grandfather in her living room watching TV, because there was a shootout going on down the street. She just died last week. The democratic mayor's response? Speak in churches and coin a "Ceasefire Sabbath."
Was she killed because of "poverty?" Is that a proper justification?
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That's not an answer.
I'm trying to expose the excuse making for criminal behavior. Frankly I'm sick of it.
Milwaukee has had either a democrat or socialist mayor for over 100 years. In some Milwaukee schools high school graduation rates are 50%. A month ago a girl was shot in the head while sitting with her grandfather in her living room watching TV, because there was a shootout going on down the street. She just died last week. The democratic mayor's response? Speak in churches and coin a "Ceasefire Sabbath."
Was she killed because of "poverty?" Is that a proper justification?
Stan, this may be difficult for you to digest and frankly... I have work to do, but: Here's a parable: A bullet didn't kill that girl, a sick society did.
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Stan, this may be difficult for you to digest and frankly... I have work to do, but: Here's a parable: A bullet didn't kill that girl, a sick society did.
Was that sickness caused by a Bilderberg vaccine infection or chemtrails?
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Was that sickness caused by a Bilderberg vaccine infection or chemtrails?
I can't tell if your sarcasm has a genuine interrogatory embedded.
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It's been shown worldwide universal: Crime stats and Poverty stats are directly correlatable.
True, but straight up crime stats are a bit over inclusive when we are talking about addiction to prescription drugs which may, or may not be a crime.
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Good TED Talk, mirroring much of what Rush and others have put forth:
https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en (https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en)
Wow that is a good talk.
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Good TED Talk, mirroring much of what Rush and others have put forth:
https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en (https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en)
Good watch/listen.
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I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I will ask if you have any evidence to back that up. The few addicts I have known, including a loved family member, got hooked because of bad decisions and life choices. They never set foot in a hospital prior to the tragedies that accompany hard drug use. If I had a little less self control and restraint, I would probably have tried to kill the couple that got my sister hooked, and even encouraged her use after she had been arrested and gone through rehab, and re-arrested. It finally took a two year prison sentence (actually a 5 year sentence with early release for good behavior) to get her straightened out.
Family of pharmacists, and there's lots of literature to back me up. Heck, there were recent pieces on CNN. Rush is right though, we have real problems in our society. You can't have a healthy society with a sizable disenfranchised fraction, something's gotta give. That's why we have massive drug and gang problems, folks haven't anything better to do. If they did, they'd be doing it.
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Family of pharmacists, and there's lots of literature to back me up. Heck, there were recent pieces on CNN. Rush is right though, we have real problems in our society. You can't have a healthy society with a sizable disenfranchised fraction, something's gotta give. That's why we have massive drug and gang problems, folks haven't anything better to do. If they did, they'd be doing it.
Lots of counterexamples (e.g., Charlie Sheen, etc).
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Family of pharmacists, and there's lots of literature to back me up. Heck, there were recent pieces on CNN. Rush is right though, we have real problems in our society. You can't have a healthy society with a sizable disenfranchised fraction, something's gotta give. That's why we have massive drug and gang problems, folks haven't anything better to do. If they did, they'd be doing it.
If you correct that to "folks haven't anything easier to do", then I'd agree with you. There are better things to do, they just take a bit of hard work, getting up in the morning, not staying out late at night, being cordial to customers, etc...the adult things. But to say that people are criminals because there are not other opportunities for them is just not believable.
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If you correct that to "folks haven't anything easier to do", then I'd agree with you. There are better things to do, they just take a bit of hard work, getting up in the morning, not staying out late at night, being cordial to customers, etc...the adult things. But to say that people are criminals because there are not other opportunities for them is just not believable.
To say they just don't have anything better to do (steingar's words) is kind of misstating it but I know what he means. The way you put it in your last sentence is more accurate, they do it because there are not other opportunities. I'm talking about the poverty stricken inner city folks. At its most basic, people do what is most rational for their particular circumstance. The deeply disenfranchised may actually, literally, have NO other opportunity. Heck if I had zero job prospects, zero chance of a college education, had a low IQ from whatever drug my welfare mom did when I was a fetus, and whatever poor nutrition I was raised on, and lived with cockroaches, I might escape into drug using and drug pushing too.
I used to believe that inner city blacks were completely at fault for their own circumstance. Personal accountability and all that. And I still believe in personal accountability as a guiding principle, but a person can be accountable for only what is within the limit of their potential, their environment and their circumstance. The things that got them trapped in the ghetto in the first place are forces beyond their control and so strong only those endowed with unusual intelligence and drive, plus no small amount of luck, escape. For the rest, at this point, many generations deep in that culture and lifestyle, it becomes almost a virtual impossibility to be anything different. THIS is the core problem that the Black Lives Matter movement is trying to express, although they are deeply stupid, criminal, misguided and evil. The police are NOT the problem and not the enemy but they're too stupid to figure it all out.
For example, one major reason there are no jobs is that manufacturing vanished from the cities. So what about entrepreneurs and small business? Desegregation allowed the smarter, more ambitious blacks (the ones who started small businesses and the professionals, the doctor, lawyers and teachers) to move away. It was a good thing for them, but a bad thing for those left behind, who no longer could benefit from the jobs that the ambitious blacks provided when they were confined to black areas of town AND from the stabilizing influence of those "higher quality" individuals in a neighborhood. Segregation is evil and it was right to end it but this was one of the unintended consequences. No, railing against the police, who more than anything protect blacks against crime committed by blacks against their own selves is to COMPLETELY miss the point. They should be railing against our trade policies that killed industry in the U.S., over regulation that has strangled small business, welfare and housing programs that have ruined the family and created generations of fatherless kids, raised without male discipline (who then turn to gang leaders as their alpha male role models), and last but not least, the insane "War on Drugs", a dismal failure on every front and possibly THE most damaging factor in all this mess, sending most of the males to prison before they have any chance at becoming a decent MAN.
So that's the black inner cities. What about everybody else? In addition to the SAD making brains unhappy, I believe our culture has collectively become enablers. In this I completely agree with you. It's taking the easy way out to just do drugs instead of working for your next meal. Assuming there IS a job out there for you, if it's not a fun job, and your parents let you live in the basement rent free, then why flip burgers? I think this pretty much defines the typical white middle class drug addict (excluding elderly disabled "accidental" addicts).
As for the rich Charlie Sheen types, drug addiction among celebrities is pandemic. What on earth makes people believe being rich and famous equates to being happy?? Those people are MISERABLE. Ever put yourself in their shoes? Being a famous musician or actor has got to be one of the most high pressure jobs possible, living under a microscope with the whole world judging you. Throw in any kind of complication such as being bipolar or having been abused as a child, and then being steeped in the partying scene and expected to be "on" for people all the time would make it very difficult to "just say no".
So it IS believable some people do it because there are just no opportunities, but others do it because the opportunities just aren't good enough to be worth it, and those I think are being enabled. If you have a job that is very meaningful and rewarding, you're less likely to do drugs but if you get your engineering degree and can't find a job other than flipping burgers, and someone enables you by paying your rent and groceries, you escape worrying about your dismal career prospects by doing drugs.
A lot of it is the work ethic is no longer being transmitted to the younger generations. Our whole culture is too soft on them, bubble wrapping them and making them expect robots and technology to do all the labor and all their thinking for them. So I agree with you that the lack of work ethic is also a big contributing factor.
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Hate to see such horrible generalizations about young people. They're no different from old people or anyone else. There are ones dedicated to making themselves and the world around them better, and there are ones who are somewhat less dedicated. Its been the same since the invention of young people.
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Hate to see such horrible generalizations about young people. They're no different from old people or anyone else. There are ones dedicated to making themselves and the world around them better, and there are ones who are somewhat less dedicated. Its been the same since the invention of young people.
I agree (mostly).
I tend to blame the shortcomings of a generation on the generation that raised them.
I'm not sure how long now that I have been hearing the phrase "helicopter parents", parents that hover over their kids every activity. Kids today (in general) have no concept of what it is like to take responsibility for what they do. Every minute of their lives seem to be controlled, and any consequences that come their way are intercepted and thwarted by their parents. How can you blame the kids for that?
When I was a kid, I was what is now called a "free range kid". We went out to play after school (and homework) and came home when it was too dark to play ball or when we got hungry. If we were too late, my parents locked the doors and I either knocked loud enough to wake them, knowing I would get yelled at, or I would sleep in the carport.
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Hate to see such horrible generalizations about young people. They're no different from old people or anyone else. There are ones dedicated to making themselves and the world around them better, and there are ones who are somewhat less dedicated. Its been the same since the invention of young people.
Not true. The game changer has been technology, and social media. It has been very destructive to the last few generations as they lack a lot of problem solving skills, and social capability. This is NOT your Hippie generation Michael.
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Not true. The game changer has been technology, and social media. It has been very destructive to the last few generations as they lack a lot of problem solving skills, and social capability. This is NOT your Hippie generation Michael.
There is a whole lot of truth to that, as long as you understand that it is not the kids fault. They are (as much as I hate to say this) victims. And society will wind up paying the price.
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Family of pharmacists, and there's lots of literature to back me up. Heck, there were recent pieces on CNN. Rush is right though, we have real problems in our society. You can't have a healthy society with a sizable disenfranchised fraction, something's gotta give. That's why we have massive drug and gang problems, folks haven't anything better to do. If they did, they'd be doing it.
The greatest contributor to anti-social behavior in the modern age is how easy it is to behave that way. In the age of liberals desperate to excuse any behavior no matter how disgusting, hanging off of every tree and willing to play the make believe race card every time someone questions their idiotic conclusions, failure has become not the norm but the preferred outcome, lest you be attacked for succeeding.
Kick their little snowflake asses when they need it, instead of blaming their bad habits on everyone else, particularly those evil hard working folks, and the younger generation will grow up. Keep making up stupid excuses and creating spaces to avoid any challenge to the echo chamber of assholes in academia, and it will happen quicker.
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Not true. The game changer has been technology, and social media. It has been very destructive to the last few generations as they lack a lot of problem solving skills, and social capability. This is NOT your Hippie generation Michael.
Gotta pull rank on you on this one, I interact with more young people than anyone here. Yeah, connectivity is different, more on screen, less face to face. But they're still no different than any other generation. To put in another way:
“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”
― Socrates
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So what you're saying is that it's an old problem that each generation complains about.
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You know that what I'm saying is the truth.
Just for the record, I pretty much count on what you say to be twisted and to bear only a passing resemblance to reality. What I do read pretty much gets flushed because I find issues at a deep level and then dismiss everything else as derived from the diseased tree.
But you put a lot of effort into writing it and I encourage that as it keeps you busy. Keep it up!
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Gotta pull rank on you on this one, I interact with more young people than anyone here. Yeah, connectivity is different, more on screen, less face to face. But they're still no different than any other generation. To put in another way:
The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”
― Socrates
Nonsense, our generation was never like that!
I do disagree. As far as I can tell, no previous generation would pull out a gun and shoot you for bumping into them at the mall. Or pull out a gun and shoot their teacher in school for being mouthy...
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Gotta pull rank on you on this one, I interact with more young people than anyone here. Yeah, connectivity is different, more on screen, less face to face. But they're still no different than any other generation. To put in another way:
The only game changer is the plethora of people willing - even desperate - to excuse bad behavior because of skin color instead of honesty. Racism has become the great shroud that hides truly bad behavior of a generation of spoiled, entitlement whiners. Occupy Wall Street called attention to how disconnected from reality this segment of the culture has become and Black Lives Matter is the real clear example of stupidity, entitlement and race politics at it's worst.
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Nonsense, our generation was never like that!
I do disagree. As far as I can tell, no previous generation would pull out a gun and shoot you for bumping into them at the mall. Or pull out a gun and shoot their teacher in school for being mouthy...
The violent crime rate peaked in the 90s and has been reducing steadily ever since. As I recall, crime rates today are similar to those in the 1960s.
I think you are probably suffering from Good Old Days Syndrome. We tend to romanticize the past, but what we are often seeing is either the same as it always was, or new ways to do the same old things.
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You've got some horrible prejudices in here that I'm going to challenge because I see these preconceived notions about people as why you and they give up.
The things that got them trapped in the ghetto in the first place are forces beyond their control
The thing that has them trapped is their own mind. There is not a single person that could not walk out of that ghetto today and get help to move up to something better. There are job assistance programs out there that will help you move up, assuming you blew your first chance in primary school.
But that's the issue, I'm defining "better" in a way they don't. To them, better is Obama paying their mortgage and free cell phones and that just isn't sustainable. Who perpetuates the idea that living off freebies from others forever is even categorized as good?
They are not trapped, they are making a choice to take free stuff because we continue to make the free stuff available to them.
...most damaging factor in all this mess, sending most of the males to prison before they have any chance at becoming a decent MAN.
"Most" males don't go to prison before they become decent men, the number is high at 35% and that includes the entire lifetime of adult males. They go to prison BECAUSE they fail to become decent men and BECAUSE they break laws.
Assuming there IS a job out there for you, if it's not a fun job,
Where do you have the idea that a job should be fun? Work is a four letter word and you don't get paid to do what you want to do, you get paid to do what needs to be done. A job doesn't have to be fun, some of them really suck.
And there ARE jobs out there. There are job training programs out there for anyone who wants it. The trouble I see is that government has made being idle tolerable or even comfortable. It should never be a tolerable choice, it should be uncomfortable in order to very strongly encourage everyone to work and to gain the self respect of self sufficiency.
Being a famous musician or actor has got to be one of the most high pressure jobs possible
Sorry, but "famous musician" doesn't make anybody's list of most high pressure jobs. Firefighter, police, military, pilot, LEO, teacher, corporate executive, heck even taxi drivers have more stressful jobs.
If you have a job that is very meaningful and rewarding, you're less likely to do drugs but if you get your engineering degree and can't find a job other than flipping burgers, and someone enables you by paying your rent and groceries, you escape worrying about your dismal career prospects by doing drugs.
There are a lot of people with engineering degrees doing drugs rather than flipping burgers? Here, http://www.engineerjobs.com (http://www.engineerjobs.com), 300,000 engineering job in the United States. If you want to complain that the standards are too high, then complain to businesses, I have the same complaint. But the jobs are there and it's a matter of marketing yourself correctly to get them.
If you don't like that, then there ARE jobs flipping burgers. Or driving the garbage truck. Or even sweeping up the barbershop floor. Every single person has the ability to contribute something and if they choose not to because they'd rather hang out then I really don't have sympathy for them.
There are lots of places that I place the blame, but one is social promotion in schools. If a kid hasn't learned what they need to know then passing them to the next grade tells them that knowledge is irrelevant when the exact opposite is true. I don't care if you get 18 year olds in the 4th grade because they can't master the material. Set the standard and require that people meet it to advance. That's the best lesson they can learn in school, achievement matters.
Then take away the free stuff, there is nothing more disrespectful than to suggest to someone that they're worthless and cannot do anything. Everyone contributes.
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The violent crime rate peaked in the 90s and has been reducing steadily ever since. As I recall, crime rates today are similar to those in the 1960s.
I think you are probably suffering from Good Old Days Syndrome. We tend to romanticize the past, but what we are often seeing is either the same as it always was, or new ways to do the same old things.
You think that I"m romanticizing it? I know that nobody pulled guns in school. There were no drive by shootings that killed 5 year olds. A drug problem was when you ran out of cough syrup on a Saturday night. Yes, crime existed but the rate was relatively low. The crime rate today is more like the late 70s than the 60s. We would have to to reduce it to about 1/3 the current rate to have a crime rate like the 60s.
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You think that I"m romanticizing it? I know that nobody pulled guns in school.
You apparently don't know (http://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states#.V07jpP7mqmw) what you don't know.
There were no drive by shootings that killed 5 year olds. A drug problem was when you ran out of cough syrup on a Saturday night. Yes, crime existed but the rate was relatively low.
Please support these assertions. "I don't remember any" is not good enough, given how Good Old Days Syndrome works.
The crime rate today is more like the late 70s than the 60s. We would have to to reduce it to about 1/3 the current rate to have a crime rate like the 60s.
Not accurate. The current violent crime rate is similar to late 60s and early 70s rates. Go here (http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm) to run some numbers if you'd like. It only runs to 2012, but violent crime rates have reduced further since then.
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You've got some horrible prejudices in here that I'm going to challenge because I see these preconceived notions about people as why you and they give up.
The thing that has them trapped is their own mind. There is not a single person that could not walk out of that ghetto today and get help to move up to something better. There are job assistance programs out there that will help you move up, assuming you blew your first chance in primary school.
But that's the issue, I'm defining "better" in a way they don't. To them, better is Obama paying their mortgage and free cell phones and that just isn't sustainable. Who perpetuates the idea that living off freebies from others forever is even categorized as good?
They are not trapped, they are making a choice to take free stuff because we continue to make the free stuff available to them.
"Most" males don't go to prison before they become decent men, the number is high at 35% and that includes the entire lifetime of adult males. They go to prison BECAUSE they fail to become decent men and BECAUSE they break laws.
Where do you have the idea that a job should be fun? Work is a four letter word and you don't get paid to do what you want to do, you get paid to do what needs to be done. A job doesn't have to be fun, some of them really suck.
And there ARE jobs out there. There are job training programs out there for anyone who wants it. The trouble I see is that government has made being idle tolerable or even comfortable. It should never be a tolerable choice, it should be uncomfortable in order to very strongly encourage everyone to work and to gain the self respect of self sufficiency.
Sorry, but "famous musician" doesn't make anybody's list of most high pressure jobs. Firefighter, police, military, pilot, LEO, teacher, corporate executive, heck even taxi drivers have more stressful jobs.
There are a lot of people with engineering degrees doing drugs rather than flipping burgers? Here, http://www.engineerjobs.com (http://www.engineerjobs.com), 300,000 engineering job in the United States. If you want to complain that the standards are too high, then complain to businesses, I have the same complaint. But the jobs are there and it's a matter of marketing yourself correctly to get them.
If you don't like that, then there ARE jobs flipping burgers. Or driving the garbage truck. Or even sweeping up the barbershop floor. Every single person has the ability to contribute something and if they choose not to because they'd rather hang out then I really don't have sympathy for them.
There are lots of places that I place the blame, but one is social promotion in schools. If a kid hasn't learned what they need to know then passing them to the next grade tells them that knowledge is irrelevant when the exact opposite is true. I don't care if you get 18 year olds in the 4th grade because they can't master the material. Set the standard and require that people meet it to advance. That's the best lesson they can learn in school, achievement matters.
Then take away the free stuff, there is nothing more disrespectful than to suggest to someone that they're worthless and cannot do anything. Everyone contributes.
While I agree that mentality is 80%+ of the game it's more complex and nuanced than that. The problem is that because your experience in America is so far removed from my own that you don't have the capacity to understand when I tell you that YOU'RE WRONG!
Do I have the mindset of success, YES. But I had a WHOLE LOT of DIVINE INTERVENTION in getting me where I am. What you don't understand is that I'm a statistical anomaly. I'm not typical of a black man in America that made something of himself. When I speak to my brethren, MOST of them have experiences similar to my own to the degree that I can say, "there but for the Grace of God go I". White Supremacy is ever-present as a labyrinth of mazes that must be negotiated consistently. The moment I forget that, then my loss is assured. You think I talk about racism because I'm worried about someone calling me a name???? That's small potatoes, and I couldn't care less.
Simply put sir, you errantly reduce the problem to lack of will by reason of mental disease or defect. And it's wrong.
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While I agree that mentality is 80%+ of the game it's more complex and nuanced than that. The problem is that because your experience in America is so far removed from my own that you don't have the capacity to understand when I tell you that YOU'RE WRONG!
Do I have the mindset of success, YES. But I had a WHOLE LOT of DIVINE INTERVENTION in getting me where I am. What you don't understand is that I'm a statistical anomaly. I'm not typical of a black man in America that made something of himself. When I speak to my brethren, MOST of them have experiences similar to my own to the degree that I can say, "there but for the Grace of God go I". White Supremacy is ever-present as a labyrinth of mazes that must be negotiated consistently. The moment I forget that, then my loss is assured. You think I talk about racism because I'm worried about someone calling me a name???? That's small potatoes, and I couldn't care less.
Simply put sir, you errantly reduce the problem to lack of will by reason of mental disease or defect. And it's wrong.
I'm going to agree with you when you say that racism is alive and well and is an omnipresent factor in the growth and development, or lack thereof, of young black men and women.
But I submit that racism goes both ways and individually in equal amounts. It is just more obvious and punishing when it is displayed by the numerically dominant segment.
That said, the way to deal with the effects of racism, such as economic failure, is not to subsidize that failure but rather to reward and celebrate the exceptions, such as yourself. I agree with bflynn that social promotion is a giant failure in that it rewards failure and erodes the concept of striving for success, just as the "social safety nets" that have morphed into something more like a comfortable hammock rather than a net removes the motivation to strive harder.
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I'm going to agree with you when you say that racism is alive and well and is an omnipresent factor in the growth and development, or lack thereof, of young black men and women.
But I submit that racism goes both ways and individually in equal amounts. It is just more obvious and punishing when it is displayed by the numerically dominant segment.
That said, the way to deal with the effects of racism, such as economic failure, is not to subsidize that failure but rather to reward and celebrate the exceptions, such as yourself. I agree with bflynn that social promotion is a giant failure in that it rewards failure and erodes the concept of striving for success, just as the "social safety nets" that have morphed into something more like a comfortable hammock rather than a net removes the motivation to strive harder.
As I thought about this, it reminded me of another discussion about how and why White Supremacy supports the current American economic ebbs and flows and in fact is necessary to be in place in order to "Make America Great (Again)", the thought of it is nauseating. There's a book covering the subject and I can't think of the title right now.
I've got an engagement to run to and will discuss more of it later and/or perhaps will remember the title of the book instead.
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You've got some horrible prejudices in here that I'm going to challenge because I see these preconceived notions about people as why you and they give up.
The thing that has them trapped is their own mind. There is not a single person that could not walk out of that ghetto today and get help to move up to something better. There are job assistance programs out there that will help you move up, assuming you blew your first chance in primary school.
But that's the issue, I'm defining "better" in a way they don't. To them, better is Obama paying their mortgage and free cell phones and that just isn't sustainable. Who perpetuates the idea that living off freebies from others forever is even categorized as good?
They are not trapped, they are making a choice to take free stuff because we continue to make the free stuff available to them.
"Most" males don't go to prison before they become decent men, the number is high at 35% and that includes the entire lifetime of adult males. They go to prison BECAUSE they fail to become decent men and BECAUSE they break laws.
Where do you have the idea that a job should be fun? Work is a four letter word and you don't get paid to do what you want to do, you get paid to do what needs to be done. A job doesn't have to be fun, some of them really suck.
And there ARE jobs out there. There are job training programs out there for anyone who wants it. The trouble I see is that government has made being idle tolerable or even comfortable. It should never be a tolerable choice, it should be uncomfortable in order to very strongly encourage everyone to work and to gain the self respect of self sufficiency.
Sorry, but "famous musician" doesn't make anybody's list of most high pressure jobs. Firefighter, police, military, pilot, LEO, teacher, corporate executive, heck even taxi drivers have more stressful jobs.
There are a lot of people with engineering degrees doing drugs rather than flipping burgers? Here, http://www.engineerjobs.com (http://www.engineerjobs.com), 300,000 engineering job in the United States. If you want to complain that the standards are too high, then complain to businesses, I have the same complaint. But the jobs are there and it's a matter of marketing yourself correctly to get them.
If you don't like that, then there ARE jobs flipping burgers. Or driving the garbage truck. Or even sweeping up the barbershop floor. Every single person has the ability to contribute something and if they choose not to because they'd rather hang out then I really don't have sympathy for them.
There are lots of places that I place the blame, but one is social promotion in schools. If a kid hasn't learned what they need to know then passing them to the next grade tells them that knowledge is irrelevant when the exact opposite is true. I don't care if you get 18 year olds in the 4th grade because they can't master the material. Set the standard and require that people meet it to advance. That's the best lesson they can learn in school, achievement matters.
Then take away the free stuff, there is nothing more disrespectful than to suggest to someone that they're worthless and cannot do anything. Everyone contributes.
I agree completely. One of the first paths to poverty is not finishing high school. Graduation rates in parts of Milwaukee are 50% or less. That is in everyone's control, and if they chose to drop out, they have likely sentenced THEMSELVES to poverty. Society did not "do" that to them.
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As I thought about this, it reminded me of another discussion about how and why White Supremacy supports the current American economic ebbs and flows and in fact is necessary to be in place in order to "Make America Great (Again)"
You're saying our economic system depends on white supremacy? What economic system is better for everyone?
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You're saying our economic system depends on white supremacy? What economic system is better for everyone?
There are ebbs and flows (for example) in residential real estate that are predicated upon it. From there comes the tax base, political influence and lack thereof, shared services (fire, police, ambulance, roads, schools, utilities) to the larger segments of society. The economics move with the tide.
We have a silly rule about redistricting every (12years?) in my county. I am working on pulling at that thread, but was it effectively does is ensure that the investments made in one's district do not stay in that district. Schools that once thrived (and the students) get moved to another school along with funding. It's an engineered failure. We have one of the wealthiest (per capita income and net worth) counties for Blacks in the US, yet our schools continually falter on academic excellence. Redistricting is part of the problem. About 40 years ago, the county was majority White, then 30 years ago, it began to change over. Now it's swinging back the other way and investments are coming with it. But for now I'm paying the upfront cost to fund these great improvements that I won't benefit from if I leave the County or sell my home.