PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Ron22 on December 12, 2018, 02:56:21 PM
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http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/audience/david-whitley/os-ae-florida-teacher-fired-for-giving-zeros-david-whitley-20180925-story.html
Best part
Tirado said she asked administrators what the score should be if a student doesn’t turn anything in.
“We give them a 50,” she was told.
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Participation trophy's?
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I always thought it was up to the teacher to decide how they grade?
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Good for her. There are likely a lot of Catholic schools that would take her in a minute.
If I were in that town I would have a word with the school board.
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I always thought it was up to the teacher to decide how they grade?
You are showing your age.
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You are showing your age.
And lately been feeling it as well. lol!
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Just untucking believable.
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I guess just showing up really is half the battle, even if you show up empty handed and don’t do anything. But even 50% would be a failing F on most grade scales so I’m uncertain if it’s a battle worth fighting for the teacher. Hopefully other school systems will recognize her worth.
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I teach a high school engineering program. It is a second career for me, I have an engineering degree, and worked in private industry for about 15 years before I taught.
This is very common in districts from what I have seen. Fortunately, in Texas the state legislature passed a law about 8 years ago (?) explicitly saying that the teacher, and only the teacher has the right to give a student the grade in a class. I.e. the district policy of mandating a minimum grade (50) was no loner allowed.
Having said that if I flunk a kid I had better have it documented 27 different ways how I did everything in the world to make them pass. Call parents, beg them, etc. But if I give a kid a 100 no one questions anything. Guess what happens a lot...
To clarify, that doesn't happen with me. I'm stubborn (dumb) enough to flunk them if they deserve it. I had a freshman class a few years ago. 24 kids, 16 failed for the semester, and they didn't fail with a 68, 69, or even a 60. It was 6, 7, 8. Single digit averages. They literally would sit in class and stare at the wall for 90 minutes. They refused to do anything.
-Dan
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To clarify, that doesn't happen with me. I'm stubborn (dumb) enough to flunk them if they deserve it. I had a freshman class a few years ago. 24 kids, 16 failed for the semester, and they didn't fail with a 68, 69, or even a 60. It was 6, 7, 8. Single digit averages. They literally would sit in class and stare at the wall for 90 minutes. They refused to do anything.
-Dan
This is the era of 'participation awards'. Kids think that all they have to do is show up (sometimes) and get a passing grade. I hear the same from a neighbor who teaches in a local high school.
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Thank you Tee Ball...
Noah W
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Why are schools not preparing our children for real life anymore? What motivates school districts, administrators, and teachers to want to hamper children without the necessary skills, and attitudes for success?
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Why are schools not preparing our children for real life anymore? What motivates school districts, administrators, and teachers to want to hamper children without the necessary skills, and attitudes for success?
Parents. (or lack of parenting).
A school trying to motivate some students is like pushing water up a hill unless the parents push too.
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It's not just kids in grade school and high school either. Recently in my department we considered giving a senior undergrad an incomplete if they failed the final exam so they could earn a D-, to keep alive their hope of graduating this spring. Then someone mentioned that this was against policy. Fortunately (?) the student in question earned their D- already with a (barely) passing final exam.
The incentives for bending the rules and outright grade inflation are HUGE in university departments, not just in primary and secondary schools. The student is considered to be the customer and is therefore "always right". One can't offend or upset the customer in any way, and the evidence (course evals) are available to the P and T committee and used in their deliberations. The object is to ensure that the business (the university) stays alive. The quality of the product? Much less important. :(
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It's not just kids in grade school and high school either. Recently in my department we considered giving a senior undergrad an incomplete if they failed the final exam so they could earn a D-, to keep alive their hope of graduating this spring. Then someone mentioned that this was against policy. Fortunately (?) the student in question earned their D- already with a (barely) passing final exam.
The incentives for bending the rules and outright grade inflation are HUGE in university departments, not just in primary and secondary schools. The student is considered to be the customer and is therefore "always right". One can't offend or upset the customer in any way, and the evidence (course evals) are available to the P and T committee and used in their deliberations. The object is to ensure that the business (the university) stays alive. The quality of the product? Much less important. :(
How sad to hear that coming from the inside. Thank you for sharing it.
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I know a bunch of current and former local college professors.
Some can't talk about their experience with the regents once they decided that federal and state grant money was far more important than teaching anything at all.
One was an English Lit professor and was ordered to give every student at least a "B" even the ones who couldn't write a single sentence on their own. They had to keep the students above a specific GPA to insure that the grant money kept flowing in. To do that they were very happy to churn out illiterate parasites.
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It's not just kids in grade school and high school either. Recently in my department we considered giving a senior undergrad an incomplete if they failed the final exam so they could earn a D-, to keep alive their hope of graduating this spring. Then someone mentioned that this was against policy. Fortunately (?) the student in question earned their D- already with a (barely) passing final exam.
The incentives for bending the rules and outright grade inflation are HUGE in university departments, not just in primary and secondary schools. The student is considered to be the customer and is therefore "always right". One can't offend or upset the customer in any way, and the evidence (course evals) are available to the P and T committee and used in their deliberations. The object is to ensure that the business (the university) stays alive. The quality of the product? Much less important. :(
Azure,
If I am a homophobe, as my liberal in-laws claim, why am I so enamored of you?
I also wonder why you and Asechrest happen to be two of my favorite people on this board. What is wrong with me?
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Azure,
If I am a homophobe, as my liberal in-laws claim, why am I so enamored of you?
I also wonder why you and Asechrest happen to be two of my favorite people on this board. What is wrong with me?
I didn't realize Asechrest was Gay, but it all makes sense now. How evolved!
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I didn't realize Asechrest was Gay, but it all makes sense now. How evolved!
I don't think he's gay. I think he is a transitioning liberal.
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I didn't realize Asechrest was Gay, but it all makes sense now. How evolved!
Did you just assume that sexuality is binary and not completely fluid?
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The incentives for bending the rules and outright grade inflation are HUGE in university departments, not just in primary and secondary schools. The student is considered to be the customer and is therefore "always right". One can't offend or upset the customer in any way, and the evidence (course evals) are available to the P and T committee and used in their deliberations. The object is to ensure that the business (the university) stays alive. The quality of the product? Much less important. :(
I make it clear to my students at the start of the semester that they are the product. My customers are their future employers. My job is to give my customers the best product possible. I also make it clear that I don't give grades. Grades are earned. I have no quota to achieve. If everyone in class fails to meet minimum standards, then everyone in the class will fail. If everyone exceeds my expectations then everyone in the class will earn an A. My expectations are very high. And every semester the students push each other to do amazing things. It's a joy to watch them wake up and run.
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I make it clear to my students at the start of the semester that they are the product. My customers are their future employers. My job is to give my customers the best product possible. I also make it clear that I don't give grades. Grades are earned. I have no quota to achieve. If everyone in class fails to meet minimum standards, then everyone in the class will fail. If everyone exceeds my expectations then everyone in the class will earn an A. My expectations are very high. And every semester the students push each other to do amazing things. It's a joy to watch them wake up and run.
Are you a tenured college professor?
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Are you a tenured college professor?
Yes. And that was my teaching philosophy even before tenure.
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Did you just assume that sexuality is binary and not completely fluid?
I don't know. Ask my girlfriend.
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I don't know. Ask my girlfriend.
As soon as you re-inflate her, I promise to ask.
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Yes. And that was my teaching philosophy even before tenure.
I'd love to hear you and Azure talk about the experience. You say the students' future employers are the customers. But I have trouble figuring that out.
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I make it clear to my students at the start of the semester that they are the product. My customers are their future employers. My job is to give my customers the best product possible. I also make it clear that I don't give grades. Grades are earned. I have no quota to achieve. If everyone in class fails to meet minimum standards, then everyone in the class will fail. If everyone exceeds my expectations then everyone in the class will earn an A. My expectations are very high. And every semester the students push each other to do amazing things. It's a joy to watch them wake up and run.
What field are you in, and what are your students majoring in?
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As soon as you re-inflate her, I promise to ask.
She's a high quality inflatable, so keeps her air usually. Not a cheap date either.
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What field are you in, and what are your students majoring in?
I'm information systems on the more technical side teaching masters-level analytics and artificial intelligence in the college of business. Before that I taught a lot of database and data management and project management. We're a PhD granting Carnegie I university. I do field research all over so I fly myself to wherever to collect data. This has the added bonus of keeping me up to date with the latest and greatest what's happening in the real world.
I find that undergraduate students really don't know what they want and are kind of clueless about how the world works, so students as customers doesn't really work. But their future employers know exactly what kind of employee they want. With them as the customer I give the students what they need to compete and be successful in the real world.
On the other hand, graduate students are much more focused and know what they want and need. Most have been out there with real jobs or are military. They are still product, but I'm able to customize the product to fit.
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If you're teaching masters level students then your experience is likely very different from mine. But I assume you've taught service courses in the past to freshman and sophomores... how did you find that experience?
Though the fact that you have the freedom to tell your students that they're the product not the customer suggests that the environment you work in is quite different from mine. That philosophy is utterly against the administration's paradigm here (4-year private college), and though not explicitly stated as such, it was de facto quite different from my former institution's as well, which was indeed a level 1 research university. There, as here, I was even strongly discouraged from pressing academic dishonesty charges against cheating students.
I have no experience in IS so it may depend greatly on the field. My department is physics (and astronomy). Most of my students are engineering and other science majors for whom calculus-based physics is required for the major. A few are non-science majors seeking a commission with the U.S. Navy. All have extensive extracurricular activities that take priority over academics, much to our (faculty) chagrin. A few are truly stellar students, and I see students each term that do amazing things. But they are in the minority. Most try to get away with the least possible work, and it shows in their performance on exams.
Or you may simply be a truly exceptional teacher! But my colleagues and I all do our best to push our students with challenging assignments and in-class activities. All of us feel the pressure to lower standards. I recently learned that one of the departments in our college essentially grades on a "graduate" scale, i.e. unacceptable work is given a C. I cannot imagine anyone teaching in a STEM field today not experiencing similar pressures, except maybe at the most selective universities.
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If you're teaching masters level students then your experience is likely very different from mine. But I assume you've taught service courses in the past to freshman and sophomores... how did you find that experience?
This university is a little different. The students get all their general ed (liberal arts, etc.) classes as freshmen and sophomores. We get them as dedicated upper division majors. The service courses are a little easier since I'm not trying to teach IT to english majors and computer science majors. I have a homogeneous bunch of business majors but split between marketing, management, finance, and accounting. 300 students in a huge hall. But what made it tolerable and even fun was the self-selected top students who would sit in the front row and really engage in the material. They would keep the bar high and show what's possible. The rest of the class could keep up or change majors. If someone was truly struggling I would do everything possible to help out. But those who didn't care and just wanted their ticket punched earned the grade they received. The real world is even less kind.
I think my transformation in teaching happened when I asked the undergraduates what they wanted out of the class. They all (except a wonderful few) said they wanted an A. Wrong answer. I asked employers what they wanted and they were very clear that they wanted the students to know x, y, and z, but also be able to think, solve problems, and so on. Cool. That's what they get.
Graduate students are more focused and know why they are there. And it's usually on their own dime.
However, I see a big split between the professional schools, the sciences, and liberal arts. The professional schools (business, law, medicine, engineering) tend to be more conservative and let the students sink or swim on their own merits. Liberal arts is all happy feely everyone passes. I'm not as familiar with the sciences in general but those professors there seem to fall into one camp or the other. I think its the split between primarily service classes to everyone or specific classes to chemistry, etc. majors.
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Pardon the ignorance, but how does a college make money? Is it not substantially by tuition dollars? If it is, then aren't the students the real customer? I can't at all connect how the future employers are the customers of the college. They don't pay the college, and it isn't even known who they will be during a student's education.
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You're right. Students pay tuition and get an education in return. Technically they are the customer. But there's more to it than that. We're a state university so a large chunk of our expenses are paid by the taxpayers. I see my responsibility to give them maximum value for their investment. Both students and taxpayers.
But students enter with skulls full of mush with no real clue about how the world works or what they will need to survive and prosper out there. By focusing on the employer as customer I can shape the product to what they need and everyone benefits.
I see your problem being a private university. The only source of income is student tuition and so they truly are the customer. A private university's survival depends on happy students which leads to a lot of pressure from the administration to keep them happy and coming back. I have a great luxury in that I don't care if my students are happy. But it turns out that I get emails and letters five and ten years down the road as they report that they are far better prepared than those around them.
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But students enter with skulls full of mush with no real clue about how the world works or what they will need to survive and prosper out there. By focusing on the employer as customer I can shape the product to what they need and everyone benefits.
And that is as it should be, because as you say, students are not really in a position to judge the quality of the education they are getting. Course evals are next to worthless as a gauge of teaching effectiveness, yet in some departments, they are the only gauge available to P & T committees because schedules often do not permit colleagues to sit in on each other's classes. We lost a faculty member this last year to that process, a good experimental physicist with a decent publication record and a very good record mentoring students in his research. The sole factor against him was poor evaluations from students in service courses. I was not able to sit in on his classes more than once, but he seemed to have good communications skills and I know from our discussions that he was quite sharp. But he was slightly eccentric, a little rigid in demeanor, and he refused to lower his standards until it was too late.
I see your problem being a private university. The only source of income is student tuition and so they truly are the customer. A private university's survival depends on happy students which leads to a lot of pressure from the administration to keep them happy and coming back. I have a great luxury in that I don't care if my students are happy. But it turns out that I get emails and letters five and ten years down the road as they report that they are far better prepared than those around them.
It's partly that we're a private university, but only partly, I think. It's also because we have a 60% acceptance rate (at my previous university it was even worse, a hair under 80%). At more selective universities it might be possible to keep the standards high and still have mostly happy students. The best students like to be challenged. But when they're in the tiny minority, the only way to keep the majority happy is to pitch the course to the middle.