PILOT SPIN
Pilot Zone => Pilot Zone => Topic started by: Anthony on May 11, 2017, 09:47:36 AM
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As most of you know, I have a pretty jaded view of government regulations, and their impact on freedoms, liberties on our Rights as Human Beings. That being said, the Experimental aircraft route seems to be an avenue to pursue to avoid some of this, and actually travel by airplane for "possibly" lower costs.
I am somewhat familiar with the Vans line of experimentals, and have looked at various models for sale in Trade a Plane. Costs for ones that are decently equipped, seem to rival certificated planes of similar performance. Is the real play here to build, and then maintain your own plane? Is there a way to acquire an already built experimental, and then add avionics as you see fit, for lower costs.
My question is what is the most economical way to get an experimental that can travel at decent speeds (130 - 150 KTAS), carry two people and light bags, that will cost around $40- $50K? However, for this money would it be better to just buy a Mooney M20C?
I am not at all interested in Light Sport.
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If you want experimental, Vans is probably the way to go. Perhaps an older RV-6 may be something to consider though I don't know if you can get the equipment you want for the price you listed (I haven't looked, though). The advantage of experimentas is that you can put experimental avionics in the panel for a fraction of the cost. I believe you still need an IFR certified GPS to file /G though.
I'm biased but a M20C will certainly meet your needs and can easily be found around the price you listed. You'll need to spend some time looking for the right one, obviously, but it can be found. The only thing mine didn't have was an IFR certified GPS, otherwise it's got everything else I need. You'll likely need to upgrade to be ADS-B compliant on almost any aircraft you buy. Just something to keep in mind.
If you decide to go the Mooney route, check out http://www.mooneyspace.com. It's a great community with a lot of knowledgeable people. Feel free to ask me any questions you have as well, either here or PM. Steingar also has a Mooney.
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Ask Jay Honeck on PoA. He loves his RV.
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If you want experimental, Vans is probably the way to go. Perhaps an older RV-6 may be something to consider though I don't know if you can get the equipment you want for the price you listed (I haven't looked, though). The advantage of experimentas is that you can put experimental avionics in the panel for a fraction of the cost. I believe you still need an IFR certified GPS to file /G though.
I'm biased but a M20C will certainly meet your needs and can easily be found around the price you listed. You'll need to spend some time looking for the right one, obviously, but it can be found. The only thing mine didn't have was an IFR certified GPS, otherwise it's got everything else I need. You'll likely need to upgrade to be ADS-B compliant on almost any aircraft you buy. Just something to keep in mind.
If you decide to go the Mooney route, check out http://www.mooneyspace.com. It's a great community with a lot of knowledgeable people. Feel free to ask me any questions you have as well, either here or PM. Steingar also has a Mooney.
Thanks. Yes, I'd like to file /G, and get the basics to be able to do that, then use other technology to better navigate. I know there is a lot out there right now that is less expensive to use "VFR only", but is really practical for IFR "situational awareness". A lot depends on what I want. Fast, and nimble, but less stable, vs a traditional, more stable IFR platform. I'll need to put some thought into it, and then see if I can fly examples of both, and what puts a smile on my face.
Yes, I know Jay likes his RV-8A. I like the RV-6/7/8 series A LOT. However, they seem to command a premium when being sold already built. It is not practical for me to build, so, I won't consider that.
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My wife and I build an RV-9A.
I'd be happy to answer questions, but a few things:
It is about the same to build as buy. I could probably sell my 9A for a few bucks more than I have in it, but only if my time has 0 value. I wanted to build, and I wanted the exact plane I wanted.
I have close to 100K in my plane, but I have a 150knt TAS plane at less than 7.5 GPH. I have an AP and glass panel system that rivals any certified plane on the market at 3-5x the cost.
With the speed and economy I can go a lot of places in a reasonable amount of time. It will haul me, my wife, 100 pounds of cargo and full fuel and jump off my grass strip in less than 500 feet on a hot texas summer day.
Bang for your buck in the RV world the RV-6/A is the best bet. They are great planes, but people prefer and pay a premium for the 7/A.
Let me know if you have other questions I can answer.
Oh, and flying an RV is like driving a sports car. No comparison to the certified planes in anything close to the same price range.
-Dan
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RV's, Glasair, Lancair, and don't forget the venerable Thorpe T-18 - all would do your stated mission easily - hell I sometimes travel in my Yak (even with WifeyGimp every now and then).
Once you purchase an Experimental you can do whatever you want to it, just like a certified plane - but unless you have the repairman certificate (from building it) you give up the ability to perform the majority of the maintenance yourself which is a potentially major cost savings.
Dollar for dollar older certifieds are the best value IMO, dollar for performance is another story - there are no certified aircraft comparable to an RV-6/7 or a Glasiar II or III - they simply do not exist.
An RV-6 or maybe a Glasair I/early Lancair could be had for that budget that would be a fun practical flyer, maybe not IFR, so save your sheckles for a year or two while you really learn the plane and then go whole hog for about 1/3 to 1/4 the costs of doing the same thing to a Cherokee or a Cardinal.
Double that budget though and now you can just get a decent Bonanza or Skywagon or Saratoga/Lance and have a lot of capabilty, or a really nice 2-seat experimental (think show winner) - just depends on what you really want, deep down.
My next plane will be a practical/travel aircraft (compared to the Yak), probably a Cessna 180 or 185 to include camping and backwoods capability - although a Bo' or a 'Toga would be nice to have.
'Gimp
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^^^^^^Thanks Gimp. I really have to decide what type of flying I want to do in the future. I used my Tiger to travel a lot, and it was great, but when I saw my first RV's I was really hooked. I am leaning towards a VFR RV-6/7/8 at this point, which I could add a box to become IFR cert just in case I needed to use it. I don't see my primary flying to be long cross countries, and/or hard IFR, so am leaning toward something fun to fly that can do day or weekend hops.
Make sense?
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Once you purchase an Experimental you can do whatever you want to it, just like a certified plane - but unless you have the repairman certificate (from building it) you give up the ability to perform the majority of the maintenance yourself which is a potentially major cost savings.
'Gimp
Not true. Even without the repairman certificate you can do all maintenance and modifications yourself. The only thing a repairman certificate gets you is the ability to sign off is your own condition inspection. Without it you need an A&P (not A/I) to sign off.
-Dan
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Not true. Even without the repairman certificate you can do all maintenance and modifications yourself. The only thing a repairman certificate gets you is the ability to sign off is your own condition inspection. Without it you need an A&P (not A/I) to sign off.
-Dan
What you say is true by letter of the law but impractical in my experience where I personally know many pilots who own used Experimentals that they didn't build who don't feel comfortable going in and pulling wires, designing and fabricating wiring harnesses, installing high value avionics boxes, setting up a new EFIS from scratch, troubleshooting all the little integration gremlins that come up, etc., all things they would have done while building the plane had they built it - those jobs, and the conditional which they would not be able wit do without the repairman certificate, all end up being done by an A&P with the attendant cost.
I do nearly all of my own maintenance on my Yak (Experimental-Exhibition), and assist with my Conditional, but there may be jobs that I wouldn't feel necessarily qualified to do having not built the plane or seen/done them before (can't think of many off hand but there are probably a few, e.g., engine overhaul, etc).
'Gimp
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My question is what is the most economical way to get an experimental that can travel at decent speeds (130 - 150 KTAS), carry two people and light bags, that will cost around $40- $50K? However, for this money would it be better to just buy a Mooney M20C?
I am not at all interested in Light Sport.
Just curious - why no LSA? Is it because of the sea level speed limit of 120 kts or something else?
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Just curious - why no LSA? Is it because of the sea level speed limit of 120 kts or something else?
Speed, and useful load limits, although I don't need too much. It may be an outside consideration if lower costs can justify it.
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What you say is true by letter of the law but impractical in my experience where I personally know many pilots who own used Experimentals that they didn't build who don't feel comfortable going in and pulling wires, designing and fabricating wiring harnesses, installing high value avionics boxes, setting up a new EFIS from scratch, troubleshooting all the little integration gremlins that come up, etc., all things they would have done while building the plane had they built it - those jobs, and the conditional which they would not be able wit do without the repairman certificate, all end up being done by an A&P with the attendant cost.
I do nearly all of my own maintenance on my Yak (Experimental-Exhibition), and assist with my Conditional, but there may be jobs that I wouldn't feel necessarily qualified to do having not built the plane or seen/done them before (can't think of many off hand but there are probably a few, e.g., engine overhaul, etc).
'Gimp
But you can make that statement about anything. Of course you should get help or not do jobs you aren't comfortable with, but my point was you can do a lot more (legally) with an EAB than a certificated plane. If you are competent, or want to do the work is another story.
As an aside, how limiting do you find the Exhibition category? I have been fighting with the FAA and Piper for almost a year on my grandfathers J-3 cub. The current hangup is they are complaining that a fuselage replacement that was done in October of 1946 is stopping them from issuing a new data plate (apparently the one I have isn't original). Even though the replacement was done according to a letter from piper to the CAA and I have all of the logs and 337's. The FAA guy is trying to push me towards making the plane an E-Exhibition. I'd rather not, but I'd also like to fly the plane while my 90 year old grandmother is still alive.
Thanks,
-Dan
-Dan
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But you can make that statement about anything. Of course you should get help or not do jobs you aren't comfortable with, but my point was you can do a lot more (legally) with an EAB than a certificated plane. If you are competent, or want to do the work is another story.
As an aside, how limiting do you find the Exhibition category? I have been fighting with the FAA and Piper for almost a year on my grandfathers J-3 cub. The current hangup is they are complaining that a fuselage replacement that was done in October of 1946 is stopping them from issuing a new data plate (apparently the one I have isn't original). Even though the replacement was done according to a letter from piper to the CAA and I have all of the logs and 337's. The FAA guy is trying to push me towards making the plane an E-Exhibition. I'd rather not, but I'd also like to fly the plane while my 90 year old grandmother is still alive.
Thanks,
-Dan
-Dan
Dan, Experimental-Exhibition is only as limiting as the Operating Limitations that YOU elect to put in your Operating Limitations - the old proficiency area is gone so if you craft a really relaxed set of Operating Limitations and define the places you're likely to go in your annual Program Letter to the FSDO it is a total non-event. Frankly, the Program Letter would be the only difference from a regular certification once the OpLimits are approved. Even if you decide to go somewhere not on your list you INFORM the FAA, it is not asking permission, usually an e-mail or a FAX is all it takes.
'Gimp
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Speed, and useful load limits, although I don't need too much. It may be an outside consideration if lower costs can justify it.
One reason I asked is because your criteria - "an experimental that can travel at decent speeds (130 - 150 KTAS), carry two people and light bags, that will cost around $40- $50K" is not unlike my own for buying a plane when I near retirement (2 to 4 years from now.) Though a sea-level 120 kt speed is fine for me since some models, like the CH-650, claim to cruise at a TAS just under 140 kt at 8000 ft.
Of course my wife and I add up to under 320 lbs, so more options available even with models with lower useful load.
Except for its seemingly small size, even a Sonex with a 80 HP engine would meet my modest requirements.
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One reason I asked is because your criteria - "an experimental that can travel at decent speeds (130 - 150 KTAS), carry two people and light bags, that will cost around $40- $50K" is not unlike my own for buying a plane when I near retirement (2 to 4 years from now.) Though a sea-level 120 kt speed is fine for me since some models, like the CH-650, claim to cruise at a TAS just under 140 kt at 8000 ft.
Of course my wife and I add up to under 320 lbs, so more options available even with models with lower useful load.
Except for its seemingly small size, even a Sonex with a 80 HP engine would meet my modest requirements.
I have to look at LSA's and their capabilities. I may have my head in the sand on that one.
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My decision was simple. There was no way I could fit a week's worth of Mrs. Steingar's luggage in an RV. I probably couldn't fit mine. I bought an airplane for travel, and I don't travel without some shit. If you mission is to bore holes in the sky, RVs are wonderful airplanes, and you can even do aerobatics on most. But if your mission is to travel, they come up short in my opinion. I still think the Mooney M20C/E are teh best bang for your buck in aviation.
If your big deal is you want to work on your own airplane, then yes experimental is the way to go no matter what.
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My decision was simple. There was no way I could fit a week's worth of Mrs. Steingar's luggage in an RV. I probably couldn't fit mine. I bought an airplane for travel, and I don't travel without some shit. If you mission is to bore holes in the sky, RVs are wonderful airplanes, and you can even do aerobatics on most. But if your mission is to travel, they come up short in my opinion. I still think the Mooney M20C/E are teh best bang for your buck in aviation.
If your big deal is you want to work on your own airplane, then yes experimental is the way to go no matter what.
For almost the same reasons that Steingar stated, I bought a Bonanza. I have never had much trouble finding parts, and I have not had many big maintenance items, because they don't break. The exception was that during the pre-buy we found a lot of "deferred" maintenance that I took care of right away.
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My decision was simple. There was no way I could fit a week's worth of Mrs. Steingar's luggage in an RV. I probably couldn't fit mine. I bought an airplane for travel, and I don't travel without some shit. If you mission is to bore holes in the sky, RVs are wonderful airplanes, and you can even do aerobatics on most. But if your mission is to travel, they come up short in my opinion. I still think the Mooney M20C/E are teh best bang for your buck in aviation.
If your big deal is you want to work on your own airplane, then yes experimental is the way to go no matter what.
All good points. I travel lightly. I ask whomever my female travel partner is at the time to not pack steamer trunks full of hair care products, make up, shoes, clothes for every black tie event, etc. A bikini, a few short skirts, and a tube top is fine. Yes, many have been high maintenance, and we've left several make-up Command Centers in the hangar because of it. If I need to get out the scale I do. So a two place plane that can handle a couple of small/mid size back packs is fine. That is essentially how I used the Tiger. Two place, and bags in the back seat.
Right now the M20C seems like the plane to beat for $$$/usefulness, only because to get a good RV is more money. I may change my mind when I get to fly and RV. We shall see. Michael, you chose wisely.
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My decision was simple. There was no way I could fit a week's worth of Mrs. Steingar's luggage in an RV. I probably couldn't fit mine. I bought an airplane for travel, and I don't travel without some shit. If you mission is to bore holes in the sky, RVs are wonderful airplanes, and you can even do aerobatics on most. But if your mission is to travel, they come up short in my opinion. I still think the Mooney M20C/E are teh best bang for your buck in aviation.
If your big deal is you want to work on your own airplane, then yes experimental is the way to go no matter what.
UPS is your friend.
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UPS is your friend.
Try sending UPS to the highland of Guatemala.
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Try sending UPS to the highland of Guatemala.
Do you fly your Mooney to Guatamala? Do you overfly the Gulf or track down the length of Mexico? Or perhaps Island Hop over Cuba?
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Do you fly your Mooney to Guatamala? Do you overfly the Gulf or track down the length of Mexico? Or perhaps Island Hop over Cuba?
What he said, plus, why the hell would anyone want to go there?
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I've owned and flown a bunch of EXP planes. If you want to go somewhere, and don't have to land on soft or short strips this is the exact plane you need:
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1256498_1993+Rutan+Long+Ez+-+Beautiful.html
I've flown this plane, and it's very well put together. It has all the upgrades and improvements you want, and it flies great. It'll do about 135Kts on 6GPH. It will go faster with a cruise prop. The only thing they don't do well is soft/short runways. Great deal too.
The other plane that is a ton of fun, and strong as hell is the Hiperbipe.
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_779598_Hiperbipe.html
Gobs of fun, and comfy for small folk. Not as efficient but you can do limited acro, land on unimproved strips.
These are the two I would choose if you want to go somewhere and still have fun. Strange, their both yellow...
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Hmmm. Never considered a Long EZ.
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52 Gal, about 50 useable. If you throttle back and fly high in the EZ you can go for 10 hours(not fun) and about 1200 miles. It was designed to go a long time(hence the name). Of course, you can just put 25 gal in and do 3 hours at high throttle. I deliver(no relation).
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Right now the M20C seems like the plane to beat for $$$/usefulness, only because to get a good RV is more money. I may change my mind when I get to fly and RV. We shall see. Michael, you chose wisely.
In my experience the Mooney is a very solid plane, ours has been pretty much trouble free the 11 years we've owned.
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What he said, plus, why the hell would anyone want to go there?
I will fly the Mooney there my next trip. I hate airlines. As far as why would I want to go there, shows what you know. My holiday there last month was the most fun I've ever had in my life period.
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My holiday there last month was the most fun I've ever had in my life period.
You must not get out much.
Does the place have a Ritz nearby?
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You must not get out much.
Does the place have a Ritz nearby?
I don't fucking care about expensive hotels. For me, a hotel is a place in which to sleep. I consider them entirely overrated. You would consider the place in which I stayed to be a shack, and it was fine by me. The most gorgeous mountain lake I've ever seen, extinct volcanoes and mountains everywhere, perfect weather, an incredible indigenous population, motorcycling on third world roads, swimming, canoeing, diving and all sorts of other activities. Good food on the cheap, live music every night, beautiful girls everywhere.
The ones who don't get out much is you lot. Fine by me, I doubt any of you could have kept up.
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The ones who don't get out much is you lot. Fine by me, I doubt any of you could have kept up.
Wow. Don't generalize too much, huh? Tsk, tsk, so much anger. Join me on one of my backpacking trips. See if you can keep up. ;)
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For me, "roughing it" is a night at the Hampton Inn.
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Wow. Don't generalize too much, huh? Tsk, tsk, so much anger. Join me on one of my backpacking trips. See if you can keep up. ;)
It's on. I walk 6 miles a day, every day, under light pack. In Guatemala I hiked straight up a mountain (after riding a motorcycle all day on third world mountain roads). We'll see who can keep up.
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I've owned and flown a bunch of EXP planes. If you want to go somewhere, and don't have to land on soft or short strips this is the exact plane you need:
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1256498_1993+Rutan+Long+Ez+-+Beautiful.html
I've flown this plane, and it's very well put together. It has all the upgrades and improvements you want, and it flies great. It'll do about 135Kts on 6GPH. It will go faster with a cruise prop. The only thing they don't do well is soft/short runways. Great deal too.
The other plane that is a ton of fun, and strong as hell is the Hiperbipe.
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_779598_Hiperbipe.html
Gobs of fun, and comfy for small folk. Not as efficient but you can do limited acro, land on unimproved strips.
These are the two I would choose if you want to go somewhere and still have fun. Strange, their both yellow...
I have no experience with a Long Ez, however my C Model Mooney will go faster on 8GPH, so not much more. Granted the Long Ez has the option of cheaper avionics upgrades which is always a bonus.
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Wow. Don't generalize too much, huh? Tsk, tsk, so much anger. Join me on one of my backpacking trips. See if you can keep up. ;)
Where do you backpack and what kind of load do you take?
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Where do you backpack and what kind of load do you take?
When I lived in Colorado, it was the foothills, and mountains, now that I am back in PA I go up state towards Williamsport mostly, or some other locations around the state. I stay in PA mostly, as I have a CCW permit (LTCF) here, but I do have reciprocity with OH, and WV, so may check out WV sometime. I have a Gregory internal frame pack, and usually carry around 40 lbs depending on the length of the trip.
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I have no experience with a Long Ez, however my C Model Mooney will go faster on 8GPH, so not much more. Granted the Long Ez has the option of cheaper avionics upgrades which is always a bonus.
I'm fine with the OP getting an M20C. Nice plane, decent speed, pretty good flyer. Just giving options. Doubt he will find a plane nearly as nice as that EZ for $25k. I would guess a nice clean M20C would be closer to $40k or so. Plus 2GPH extra to get somewhere.
Meh - lots of choices.