PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: nddons on January 12, 2016, 08:46:22 PM
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I just got done reading the June 2015 American Rifleman (yes, I'm behind a few months) and they interviewed Sgt./Maj. Kyle Lamb about this topic. His endorsement of using the AR is very compelling.
What say you?
(And by the way, I have no idea where topics like this should go. Maybe we should just have the Spin Zone and Aviation Stuff.)
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Joe Biden says you should go out on the balcony and shoot off a couple rounds from your shotgun.
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I just got done reading the June 2015 American Rifleman (yes, I'm behind a few months) and they interviewed Sgt./Maj. Kyle Lamb about this topic. His endorsement of using the AR is very compelling.
What say you?
(And by the way, I have no idea where topics like this should go. Maybe we should just have the Spin Zone and Aviation Stuff.)
sure, if you don't mind losing your hearing and having rounds go through walls. :-/
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In home? I prefer a 12ga short barrel for in home defense. I like my Beretta 1201FP.
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Yes, I prefer a pistol for home defense as noise, and muzzle blast from a 5.56 round indoors would be harsh. You can solve the penetration issue with the proper ammo, but there is still the other issues. A suppressed SBR AR-15 in .300 Blackout would be ideal.
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I just got done reading the June 2015 American Rifleman (yes, I'm behind a few months) and they interviewed Sgt./Maj. Kyle Lamb about this topic. His endorsement of using the AR is very compelling.
What say you?
(And by the way, I have no idea where topics like this should go. Maybe we should just have the Spin Zone and Aviation Stuff.)
sure, if you don't mind losing your hearing and having rounds go through walls. :-/
His answer on the noise is that guns are loud. All of them. One benefit is that since most ARs have threaded barrels, they are well suited for suppressors if legal in your state.
As for penetration, he says with the right ammo, the 5.56 won't penetrate much more than handgun ammo.
He also says regardless of what you shoot, if you have a kid in the next room, you'd better not miss. Virtually every shooter will put a round on target with a carbine more accurately than with a handgun, especially in a high stress environment.
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His answer on the noise is that guns are loud. All of them. One benefit is that since most ARs have threaded barrels, they are well suited for suppressors if legal in your state.
As for penetration, he says with the right ammo, the 5.56 won't penetrate much more than handgun ammo.
He also says regardless of what you shoot, if you have a kid in the next room, you'd better not miss. Virtually every shooter will put a round on target with a carbine more accurately than with a handgun, especially in a high stress environment.
Yes a suppressed AR would be fine especially an SBR (short barreled rifle) that requires a NFA stamp, along with a suppressor that also requires a stamp. I recently bought a USGI M1 Carbine. Always wanted one, and I think it is a dandy HD carbine, and with soft point ammo, penetration is not an issue. No kids in the house though.
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His answer on the noise is that guns are loud. All of them. One benefit is that since most ARs have threaded barrels, they are well suited for suppressors if legal in your state.
As for penetration, he says with the right ammo, the 5.56 won't penetrate much more than handgun ammo.
He also says regardless of what you shoot, if you have a kid in the next room, you'd better not miss. Virtually every shooter will put a round on target with a carbine more accurately than with a handgun, especially in a high stress environment.
my solution is frangible ammo. Sure, it doesn't have the stopping power of the same weight bullet, but I don't have to worry as much about what happens if I miss.
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In home? I prefer a 12ga short barrel for in home defense. I like my Beretta 1201FP.
His thoughts on shotguns were limited number of rounds, some unreliability in semiauto shotguns if you can't get the stock to your shoulder, and ... something else. (Sorry, I'll check the article again.)
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His answer on the noise is that guns are loud. All of them. One benefit is that since most ARs have threaded barrels, they are well suited for suppressors if legal in your state.
As for penetration, he says with the right ammo, the 5.56 won't penetrate much more than handgun ammo.
He also says regardless of what you shoot, if you have a kid in the next room, you'd better not miss. Virtually every shooter will put a round on target with a carbine more accurately than with a handgun, especially in a high stress environment.
my solution is frangible ammo. Sure, it doesn't have the stopping power of the same weight bullet, but I don't have to worry as much about what happens if I miss.
His thoughts on 5.56 ammo and the "lack of stopping power" is that tens of thousands of jihadists apparently never read the gun blog criticisms of the 5.56 before they were dispatched by the round. :)
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His thoughts on 5.56 ammo and the "lack of stopping power" is that tens of thousands of jihadists apparently never read the gun blog criticisms of the 5.56 before they were dispatched by the round. :)
The ballistic performance of 5.56 out of a rifle or carbine is far superior to a pistol round. I have no problem with the round. but my Colt M4 (LE6920) is for the most part a range toy. Things would have to get REALLY ugly should I have to use that for HD. It would probably take the marauding disenfranchised to come over the hill en masse.
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His answer on the noise is that guns are loud. All of them. One benefit is that since most ARs have threaded barrels, they are well suited for suppressors if legal in your state.
As for penetration, he says with the right ammo, the 5.56 won't penetrate much more than handgun ammo.
He also says regardless of what you shoot, if you have a kid in the next room, you'd better not miss. Virtually every shooter will put a round on target with a carbine more accurately than with a handgun, especially in a high stress environment.
my solution is frangible ammo. Sure, it doesn't have the stopping power of the same weight bullet, but I don't have to worry as much about what happens if I miss.
His thoughts on 5.56 ammo and the "lack of stopping power" is that tens of thousands of jihadists apparently never read the gun blog criticisms of the 5.56 before they were dispatched by the round. :)
my point was about the difference in stopping power of frangible ammo- a 9mm frangible bullet vs a standard 9mm bullet. I wasn't referring to the stopping power of the .223rem/5.56 nato.
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Chances are he wrote the article to make his advertisers happy and sell more AR clones and parts. The gun industry now partly lives on the popularity of ARs. They don't just sell you a gun, they now sell you a whole hobby unto itself.
The whole topic of HD in gun magazines I think is just to play on your fears and get you to buy more stuff. I'd like to see an article on the subject based on actual crime statistics over a long period. I'd like to know-
- How many people actually ran out of ammo, or had to reload?
- How many people came up short in stopping power and were overcome by a wounded intruder?
- How many people ended up killing, or wounding someone in another room?
- Ultimately, how many people were never even able to get to and use their trick, custom rig with fancy bullets?
IMO, all you need is something that is easy to get to, easy to wield and point and shoot and goes bang every single time. The rest is just selling you stuff and filling the pages on gun magazines with content.
It's like statistics with airplanes. Sure, there may be the statistical anomaly where the Mexican drug cartel mistakes your home for another and you end up running out of bullets in a bun battle, or the Sumo wrestler on PCP that keeps coming even after you empty the mag, or the stray bullet that hits the baby in the head the next house over, but the vast majority of home invasions where the home owner can actually get to a gun and prepare, end in 1-5 shots and the intruders either running away, or on the ground. Most use ordinary guns as best I can tell.
Like I said though, I would like to see a real statistical analysis on the subject broken down kind of like the Nall Report.
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One of the realistic scenarios with regards to needing a carbine is for home invasions with multiple assailants. As others have said people in general shoot rifles much better than pistols. When you shoulder an AR carbine it naturally points, and you have a more stable platform. I train with handguns for SD/HD a lot more than rifles, but I can see there advantage That is one reason I bought the old M1 Carbine as it is a rifle, but really uses more of a magnum pistol round so yes it will be loud, but not like a 5.56. I don't fire any firearm without ear, and eye protection, but when things go bump in the night, you're not going to have that stuff.
The ideal home defense weapon would be an AR-15 SBR with a suppressor in a caliber that lends itself to an effective sub sonic round like .300 BLK. I may go that route someday.
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Chances are he wrote the article to make his advertisers happy and sell more AR clones and parts. The gun industry now partly lives on the popularity of ARs. They don't just sell you a gun, they now sell you a whole hobby unto itself.
The whole topic of HD in gun magazines I think is just to play on your fears and get you to buy more stuff. I'd like to see an article on the subject based on actual crime statistics over a long period. I'd like to know-
- How many people actually ran out of ammo, or had to reload?
- How many people came up short in stopping power and were overcome by a wounded intruder?
- How many people ended up killing, or wounding someone in another room?
- Ultimately, how many people were never even able to get to and use their trick, custom rig with fancy bullets?
IMO, all you need is something that is easy to get to, easy to wield and point and shoot and goes bang every single time. The rest is just selling you stuff and filling the pages on gun magazines with content.
It's like statistics with airplanes. Sure, there may be the statistical anomaly where the Mexican drug cartel mistakes your home for another and you end up running out of bullets in a bun battle, or the Sumo wrestler on PCP that keeps coming even after you empty the mag, or the stray bullet that hits the baby in the head the next house over, but the vast majority of home invasions where the home owner can actually get to a gun and prepare, end in 1-5 shots and the intruders either running away, or on the ground. Most use ordinary guns as best I can tell.
Like I said though, I would like to see a real statistical analysis on the subject broken down kind of like the Nall Report.
You sound like such an expert, I'm sure you can pull together the statistics that your looking for. It looks like you're already on it with your "knowledge" of things ending in 1-5 shots. :rolleyes:
Also, they merely mention the interviewee's name. No website, mailing address, or anything else.
You may call it "play on your fears." I call it being prepared. There are many ways to accomplish that. Knock yourself out. Unless your plan is to lie prostrate on the ground waiting for the bad guy to put a bullet in your brain. I chose not to do that. But whatever floats your boat.
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Maybe Jose C can come over from POA and tell us all about shooting anything and anyone...
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Unless your plan is to lie prostrate on the ground waiting for the bad guy to put a bullet in your brain. I chose not to do that. But whatever floats your boat.
Straw Man is a fallacy - look it up.
He just made the point that the fact that you are armed for home defense is the major factor, and that the exact choice of firearm is far less important that the decision to be armed in the first place.
Which I agree with.
Also to be competent with whatever one's choice of firearm is, but that should go without saying.
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Unless your plan is to lie prostrate on the ground waiting for the bad guy to put a bullet in your brain. I chose not to do that. But whatever floats your boat.
Straw Man is a fallacy - look it up.
He just made the point that the fact that you are armed for home defense is the major factor, and that the exact choice of firearm is far less important that the decision to be armed in the first place.
Which I agree with.
Also to be competent with whatever one's choice of firearm is, but that should go without saying.
So what is "playing on your fears"? A factual statement?
Reread the first paragraph of his post.
And it wasn't a straw man. I was a retort to his dismissal of home invasion or self-defense as fear mongering.
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Not really a dismissal.
He said, "IMO, all you need is something that is easy to get to, easy to wield and point and shoot and goes bang every single time." That's a long way from, "...your plan is to lie prostrate on the ground waiting for the bad guy to put a bullet in your brain.", which is a perfect example of straw-manning his stance through exaggeration.
What he called "fear mongering" was the need for wretched excess in this regard. That's what I agree with.
For home defense, I feel fine with a 9mm or a .45 - or maybe a 12 ga.
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Not really a dismissal.
He said, "IMO, all you need is something that is easy to get to, easy to wield and point and shoot and goes bang every single time." That's a long way from, "...your plan is to lie prostrate on the ground waiting for the bad guy to put a bullet in your brain.", which is a perfect example of straw-manning his stance through exaggeration.
What he called "fear mongering" was the need for wretched excess in this regard. That's what I agree with.
For home defense, I feel fine with a 9mm or a .45 - or maybe a 12 ga.
Oh, goodie. A POA-type you said/he said debate. Maybe we could get a few pages out of this. :rolleyes:
Whatever, Eddie. I told you what I was responding to. You're talking about what you think I was responding to.
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Well, since I'm late back to this thread, I'll say that Eddie pretty much summed up my response to John's response. To clarify since I guess I need to, "playing on your fears" in my context was about the gun enthusiast media and also the gun industry in general when they write these articles that usually leave the impression on the reader that if you don't have a specialized gun with all the attachments, loaded with special ammo, at the ready, you could be very sorry.
Then I went on to try t point out how the subject is kind of like airplane accident statistics. Some in aviation will say that only a turbine twin is safe enough to carry your family at night, or over water. Others will say that any ol' Cherokee is just fine. With aviation there are statistics that are assembled into a report that allows the pilot to make up their own mind as to how much risk they take on with the piston single.
If there is a comprehensive report, I'd love to read it. I'm no expert by any means and all I know is the great number of news excerpts that American Rifleman reprints in every magazine as well as stories that come up time to time in my local news. I've also read a number of magazine articles on this subject over the years. They all give the impression that a typical "gun battle" is over quickly and with just limited rounds fired. In my only personal experience with using a gun for self defense, no shots were fired at all. The mere sight of the gun made the perpetrator flee.
The point being that I am throwing out my opinion on the matter and would like to see some data if there is any in a digestible form. If you don't like my opinion, well... that's just a normal day around here. ;)
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In home? I prefer a 12ga short barrel for in home defense. I like my Beretta 1201FP.
His thoughts on shotguns were limited number of rounds, some unreliability in semiauto shotguns if you can't get the stock to your shoulder, and ... something else. (Sorry, I'll check the article again.)
OK, maybe I'll buy some of that, but if I wanted to use a carbine I'd use my CX-4 storm that is chambered in 9mm, thus I could load it with the same personal defense ammo I use in my carry 9mm pistol.
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They all give the impression that a typical "gun battle" is over quickly and with just limited rounds fired. In my only personal experience with using a gun for self defense, no shots were fired at all. The mere sight of the gun made the perpetrator flee.
The scenario above is often what happens. No shots are fired. However, like buying insurance, sometimes it is a good thing to have some firepower. There are home invasions, with multiple assailants, and a five or six shot revolver, while a great option may not be enough. My preference is for a semi auto pistol of at least a 15 round magazine, and a spare mag. However I do have a carbine, which I can employ if necessary.
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They all give the impression that a typical "gun battle" is over quickly and with just limited rounds fired. In my only personal experience with using a gun for self defense, no shots were fired at all. The mere sight of the gun made the perpetrator flee.
The scenario above is often what happens. No shots are fired. However, like buying insurance, sometimes it is a good thing to have some firepower. There are home invasions, with multiple assailants, and a five or six shot revolver, while a great option may not be enough. My preference is for a semi auto pistol of at least a 15 round magazine, and a spare mag. However I do have a carbine, which I can employ if necessary.
The revolver buys you time to get to your big iron.
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The revolver buys you time to get to your big iron.
Claymores?
;D
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The revolver buys you time to get to your big iron.
No, what actually buys you time is the doors to your house. People considering spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on a HD gun should first consider how strong are the doors to your house? Your fancy gun will be useless and actually out on the street committing crimes if you don't have time to get to it.
The average exterior door on an typical American house with a locking knob and a one deadbolt can be kicked in about two seconds. You're sitting on the couch watching TV with your wife, remote in hand and your hear a big bang and suddenly there are three strange men in your house. You never had a chance at getting your big boom stick.
To make matters worse, about 90% of locks protecting America's houses can be opened in under 10 seconds with a skilled person and a bump key. You can buy a set of bump keys that will open all the popular lock brands on the internet for about $8. If you don't have the $8, you can watch videos on YouTube on how to make and use a bump key for nothing.
Money well spent in HD is on fortified doors, better locks, securing windows, lighting and maybe even cameras and an alarm. I lived in Oakland, CA for 20 years and all my neighbors surrounding me were robbed over those years. I never was. Not that they didn't try, the shoe prints left on my back door was testament to that. My doors were just too strong.
I have since moved out to a more rural area that is considered to have a very low crime rate. Well, over the Christmas break, my next-door neighbor here was robbed. They kicked his side garage door in. I did not know it, but he was robbed many years before the same way, long before I moved here and he nailed that door shut. Didn't work. They still got in.
Sadly for me... paradise is lost and I need to get building. :'(
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^^^^^And why are you separated from your carry firearm just because you are in your house?
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Here is the article in its entirety (I didn't know you could find it online too):
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion/
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Dav8or makes some good points on hardening your doors, and windows to keep people out or delay them as much as possible. That's a great idea, in addition to a security system, and dog. My dog always would growl if he heard a weird noise, or felt and unusual vibration.
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^^^^^And why are you separated from your carry firearm just because you are in your house?
Even if I owned a piece, I doubt I would carry it around with me in my house, unless I lived in a really, really high crime neighborhood. But in that case, I would move.
Actually, I do own a couple of handguns, but about the only action they see is when I clean and oil them every year or so, whether they need it or not. Then they go back in storage.
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Even if I owned a piece, I doubt I would carry it around with me in my house, unless I lived in a really, really high crime neighborhood. But in that case, I would move.
Actually, I do own a couple of handguns, but about the only action they see is when I clean and oil them every year or so, whether they need it or not. Then they go back in storage.
Bad things happen in good neighborhoods. I carry outside, and inside. I just keep it on when I come in as it doesn't bother me to wear it. I live in a very good area, and their was a home invasion not to long ago in the next township. Its just as nice if not nicer than hear in a semi rural but more suburban environment. Two guys who had done some work in the house, and saw some valuables, and later went back broke in, beat up the homeowner terribly and stole his stuff. They could have killed him.
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I carry 24/7 too, even at home. I really don't even notice. 20 years ago there had been zero home invasions since way before I was born. Now we have at least a dozen a year (I live in an average town of 130K or so). About half of them are hoodrats knocking off other hoodrats. But several years ago one of my neighbors, a VN vet in a chair had a group of teens bust in and beat him and his wife all day, trashed their house and stole their car. It didn't surprise me to read recently that one of them was arrested for another shooting incident. Apparently none of them did much time.
Even though I live in a nice neighborhood of $250K-$450K homes I still have mine on me. I hate to sound like a fear monger, because I'm not. I honestly don't think I'll ever have to remove it from the holster. But nothing is 100%.
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You guys that carry 24/7 must feel really, really vulnerable when you take a shower. ;)
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You guys that carry 24/7 must feel really, really vulnerable when you take a shower. ;)
Its the same feeling as when I let my home owners insurance lapse. ::)
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You guys that carry 24/7 must feel really, really vulnerable when you take a shower. ;)
Anyone who has seen Psycho feels really, really vulnerable when taking a shower!
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I feel a lot of things when taking a shower.
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I feel a lot of things when taking a shower.
OK, I'm all for free speech, but I demand this thread be locked before he elaborates.
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I feel a lot of things when taking a shower.
OK, I'm all for free speech, but I demand this thread be locked before he elaborates.
I have so reported both of you! One for indecency and the other for intolerance!!! ;)
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I have so reported both of you! One for indecency and the other for intolerance!!! ;)
Reported for excessive reporting!
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I have so reported both of you! One for indecency and the other for intolerance!!! ;)
Reported for excessive reporting!
Now I am scared our POA overlords will retaliate!
Moderators, please delete problem solved!