Post by: Little Joe on December 14, 2017, 11:51:03 AM
Post by: LevelWing on December 14, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Post by: bflynn on December 14, 2017, 12:54:45 PM
Post by: Lucifer on December 14, 2017, 05:47:28 PM
Post by: nddons on December 14, 2017, 06:05:38 PM
I met with a client today and basically just told him they are making this shit up as they go along.
The ONLY thing that is happening is maneuvering as to how this can fall within the Byrd rule so they don’t have to use 60 votes to pass it.
If anyone says this is simplification, I’m going to kick them in the ass. This is anything from it. It is also NOT the panacea tax cut the republicans are frothing over. Yes, businesses will get the lions share of the benefits, and it will be paid for by tax increases on the people making $100k - $400k that don’t happen to own a business. No one is talking about that.
And my take is not lib talking points. It comes from reading the bills, and seeing notices come to my email every two hours.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 14, 2017, 08:05:23 PM
Never underestimate the republicans to screw this up as well. Remember, on the Obamacare repeal McCain told people he would vote yes, then strolled into the chamber and voted no.He hates Trump more than he loves America.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 14, 2017, 08:11:40 PM
The Republicans have already screwed the pooch. In an effort to just “get something done”, they have cobbled together a giant pile of shit. Just yesterday things leaked out about JCT agreements on things that weren’t in either the House or Senate Bills, such as a 37% individual rate.
I met with a client today and basically just told him they are making this shit up as they go along.
The ONLY thing that is happening is maneuvering as to how this can fall within the Byrd rule so they don’t have to use 60 votes to pass it.
If anyone says this is simplification, I’m going to kick them in the ass. This is anything from it. It is also NOT the panacea tax cut the republicans are frothing over. Yes, businesses will get the lions share of the benefits, and it will be paid for by tax increases on the people making $100k - $400k that don’t happen to own a business. No one is talking about that.
And my take is not lib talking points. It comes from reading the bills, and seeing notices come to my email every two hours.
I fully expect to take it in the shorts. I'm squarely in the "I pay so you don't have to" bracket.
Post by: nddons on December 15, 2017, 07:35:54 AM
I fully expect to take it in the shorts. I'm squarely in the "I pay so you don't have to" bracket.I’ve done some projections for my clients, and many of them will be getting tax increases.
That being said, I met with a client yesterday who will save $275,000 in taxes if his 2017 S Corp business income is the same in 2018, and the JCT version matches the Senate bill. Of course he nets $250,000 per month in his chemical business. I don’t begrudge him one bit, I just want to point out who is winning here.
Post by: acrogimp on December 15, 2017, 07:49:28 AM
The real problem here is Trump operates from a belief that like most businesses, people will not knowingly and willingly take decisions and actions that go against their own best interests - politicians and deep state wonks have demonstrated more clearly than ever over the last 2 years or so that they are only interested in their own power and they will not tolerate interlopers from the great unwashed masses getting into their business.
Truly a disappointment, but at least we are getting to see that it really is as Limbaugh has said, the ruling class vs. the rest of us. Unfortunately, not much we can do about it shy of watering the tree of liberty.
'Gimp
Post by: nddons on December 15, 2017, 07:59:12 AM
I doubt it will pass, and as it has mutated it probably shouldn't. Not a reflection on Trump IMO, he did his bit, this is 100% owned by McConnell and Ryan who just continue to underwhelm and disappoint. The establishment has the long knives out for Trump and will not give him any wins, whoever said McConnell would rather be Minority Leader was spot on, the Republicans are like battered wives.Spot on. And I’m the one who stated that McConnell wants to be the minority leader.
The real problem here is Trump operates from a belief that like most businesses, people will not knowingly and willingly take decisions and actions that go against their own best interests - politicians and deep state wonks have demonstrated more clearly than ever over the last 2 years or so that they are only interested in their own power and they will not tolerate interlopers from the great unwashed masses getting into their business.
Truly a disappointment, but at least we are getting to see that it really is as Limbaugh has said, the ruling class vs. the rest of us. Unfortunately, not much we can do about it shy of watering the tree of liberty.
'Gimp
Liberty is diminishing on a daily basis, even with GOP “leadership” in DC. Pathetic.
Post by: Lucifer on December 15, 2017, 09:02:40 AM
Spot on. And I’m the one who stated that McConnell wants to be the minority leader.
Liberty is diminishing on a daily basis, even with GOP “leadership” in DC. Pathetic.
It looks as if Paul Ryan is going to "retire" in the near future according to news reports. I think he sees that he will run a real chance of not getting re-elected. And Mr. Turtle doesn't stand a chance at re-election either.
Post by: nddons on December 15, 2017, 09:21:08 AM
It looks as if Paul Ryan is going to "retire" in the near future according to news reports. I think he sees that he will run a real chance of not getting re-elected. And Mr. Turtle doesn't stand a chance at re-election either.He’s denied it, and he will get elected. He’s Wisconsin’s second favorite son after Scott Walker. His district fits him perfectly.
Post by: Lucifer on December 15, 2017, 09:26:40 AM
He’s denied it, and he will get elected. He’s Wisconsin’s second favorite son after Scott Walker. His district fits him perfectly.
He's been a disaster as Speaker.
And the news reports are reporting it both ways, so who knows at this point.
Post by: Anthony on December 15, 2017, 09:51:01 AM
Post by: Gary on December 16, 2017, 04:00:40 PM
Shame, there was an opportunity for truly meaningful reform of the tax code, didn't happen. Does settle one thing though, the Republicans are no different than the Democrats as far as controlling the Federal deficit.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 16, 2017, 05:12:54 PM
How much did you make over $25K single / $50K joint? Send us 10%. No deductions, no credits. Everyone pays.
Post by: Lucifer on December 16, 2017, 05:16:31 PM
Should have been on a postcard:
How much did you make over $25K single / $50K joint? Send us 10%. No deductions, no credits. Everyone pays.
Absolutely!
Post by: PaulS on December 17, 2017, 08:03:36 AM
Post by: Little Joe on December 17, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
It's going to pass, it will be very interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years after it does. I think great things will happen with the cut in corporate rates.Perhaps this will help answer the question: "Does supply side economics work"?
But in reality, what will happen is that the Democrats will take the results and see failure while Republicans will take the same results and see success.
Boy, are those Democrats dumb. Or liars. Or both.
Post by: Anthony on December 17, 2017, 11:41:19 AM
JFK
P.S. I think Kennedy commanded two boats in WWII. One of them sunk. :)
Post by: bflynn on December 18, 2017, 05:38:27 AM
Should have been on a postcard:
I agree. What they have is a change, probably a positive one, but it cannot be called reform.
Post by: nddons on December 18, 2017, 06:06:45 AM
Post by: LevelWing on December 18, 2017, 06:19:22 AM
McCain will miss the vote. He’s heading back to Arizona according to today’s headline.The bill should pass with Rubio's support.
Stan, most of what I've read says that this is a definite improvement in the tax structure in the country, but by no means perfect. I know you've taken issue with some of it, but on the whole, what are your thoughts?
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on December 18, 2017, 06:21:50 AM
Post by: Little Joe on December 18, 2017, 07:11:21 AM
We keep tinkering around the edges and adding more pages to an already unwieldly system, when are we actually going to rewrite the sucker?When we get every last damn incumbent out of office and set term limits for their replacements.
Post by: Anthony on December 18, 2017, 07:21:16 AM
When we get every last damn incumbent out of office and set term limits for their replacements.
^^^^^^This. The game is rigged due to the emergence over decades (or more) of the career politician, which is the equivalent of Royalty today. They are often untouchable due to the power incumbency, and pork politics brings. We will not have meaningful tax reform, healthcare reform, or anything else until these politicians of BOTH parties are replaced, and their tail feathers removed.
Post by: nddons on December 18, 2017, 03:07:11 PM
The bill should pass with Rubio's support.Thanks for asking. I’m fairly satisfied with the Conference Bill, all things being equal. The 1,097 page bill was dropped on our desk by Congress at 5:06 PM CST, so I missed our office’s holiday party to scan the bill. It is a far cry better than the House Bill, with which I was so critical. The Conference was making this up as they went along, and in many instances made a bill that didn’t reflect EITHER the House or Senate bill. For example, the House top individual rate was 39.6%. The Senate top rate was 38.5%. The Conference top rate was 37%. I’m glad, but holy cow. Where did that come from. Likewise, a number of throngs were put back in at the last minute, like the Work Opportunity Tax Credit, etc etc.
Stan, most of what I've read says that this is a definite improvement in the tax structure in the country, but by no means perfect. I know you've taken issue with some of it, but on the whole, what are your thoughts?
There is zero simplification in this bill. Zero. They took away the state and local tax deduction except for $10,000, but then kept in the AMT with larger exemptions. The AMT requires a business keep a second set of depreciation records just for AMT purposes, with longer lives or less accelerated deductions. Ridiculous.
Also, most of this bill will expire in 8-10 years, thanks to the GOP unwillingness to work with Dems. If this could pass with normal order, they wouldn’t have had to put up with the Byrd rule, and more of this could be permanent. Instead, it’s become the Accountant’s Full Employment Act.
Knowing my luck, we’ll go to a full consumption tax the day after I retire.
Post by: Little Joe on December 18, 2017, 03:20:21 PM
Just a question: Wouldn't the doubling of the standard deduction, resulting in more people filing the short form rather than itemizing constitute simplification for many people? And those are the people who probably had the most difficulty filling out the long form, or paying someone like yourself to do it for them.
There is zero simplification in this bill. Zero.
I agree with you and others that said this isn't really "reform" as I imagine reform. It is just change. But I think the bottom line is that the change will be good for America.
btw, two more Republican Congress critters (Senators Mike Lee and Susan Collins) are on board now: That leaves Arizona (Flake and the other flake) unknown.
Post by: Number7 on December 18, 2017, 06:31:09 PM
McCain will miss the vote. He’s heading back to Arizona according to today’s headline.
Since he’s unpopular his votes on killing obamacare and other things, i wonder if his sudden illness is his way of voting NO without voting...
Post by: nddons on December 18, 2017, 08:40:04 PM
Just a question: Wouldn't the doubling of the standard deduction, resulting in more people filing the short form rather than itemizing constitute simplification for many people? And those are the people who probably had the most difficulty filling out the long form, or paying someone like yourself to do it for them.I don’t do low end returns, now just advise business owners. However, many people that filed low end returns just didn’t bother minimizing their taxes; they just filed using the standard deduction. So sure, now some people don’t have to go through that exercise.
I agree with you and others that said this isn't really "reform" as I imagine reform. It is just change. But I think the bottom line is that the change will be good for America.
btw, two more Republican Congress critters (Senators Mike Lee and Susan Collins) are on board now: That leaves Arizona (Flake and the other flake) unknown.
It’s also more simple if your boss pays some of your moving expenses, and you pay the rest yourself. The good news is that you don’t have total up your moving expenses, because they’re no longer deductible. Oh, but the reimbursement is no longer tax free, so they get added to your W-2.
My point is that in reading the final Bill, as well as the House and Senate Bills, it is clear that in order to meet the Byrd rule, the loss of deductions (“simplification”) and the loss of tax exemptions for some income (“simplification”) are really revenue raisers being obfuscated as simplification, so that other areas like C Corporations can enjoy a large rate reduction.
I don’t begrudge that. I get the economics of economic growth. I just am offended that the public was sold a bill of goods in order to support the bill.
Today a local conservative talk radio host in
Milwaukee was bitching because having seven rate brackets is not simplification. How stupid. Unless you have a single bracket, 2 or 20 brackets doesn’t make a bit of difference. Interestingly, he was a Yuuuge propagandist of Paul Ryan’s “Everyone gets a tax cut” until his ox got gored on Friday when the single rate brackets got compressed and he found out he may be paying taxes at a higher rate.
Post by: nddons on December 18, 2017, 08:40:31 PM
Since he’s unpopular his votes on killing obamacare and other things, i wonder if his sudden illness is his way of voting NO without voting...I was thinking the same thing.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 18, 2017, 09:37:13 PM
We keep tinkering around the edges and adding more pages to an already unwieldly system, when are we actually going to rewrite the sucker?
The fact that absolutely no one understands the whole tax code and the fact that much of it is open to "interpretation" makes the income tax a soft tyranny.
Post by: nddons on December 18, 2017, 09:41:44 PM
The fact that absolutely no one understands the whole tax code...Speak for yourself!
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 18, 2017, 09:53:34 PM
Speak for yourself!
Present company excepted.
Post by: Mr Pou on December 19, 2017, 05:16:17 AM
I was thinking the same thing.
Yes, he's taking the cowards way out.
Post by: PaulS on December 19, 2017, 07:00:18 AM
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on December 19, 2017, 11:21:09 AM
Speak for yourself! (http://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji41.png)
Stan,
Do you really feel you understand the entire tax code? Serious question, since you're in the biz.
Post by: LevelWing on December 19, 2017, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: NBC News
WASHINGTON — The House passed a sweeping $1.5 trillion tax bill on Tuesday that slashes tax rates for corporations, provides new breaks for private businesses and reorganizes the individual tax code.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republican-tax-bill-house-senate-trump-n831161
The Senate is expected to vote on the bill tonight and send it to the President for signature.
Post by: jb1842 on December 19, 2017, 02:01:00 PM
Post by: Little Joe on December 19, 2017, 02:04:22 PM
And tomorrow all the crybabies will be throwing a fit.No, just the liberals.
Oh, that's what you said.
Post by: jb1842 on December 19, 2017, 02:15:32 PM
No, just the liberals.
Oh, that's what you said.
And since a large number of them don't work, the protests should start soon.
Post by: Rush on December 19, 2017, 06:05:47 PM
The jury is still out as to whether I get a tax cut or not if this is voted through, time will tell.
Same here. I asked my accountant today and he says, he doesn't know yet. Way too many variables still.
Post by: Little Joe on December 19, 2017, 06:27:30 PM
If this tax legislation is successful, then most people will be paying more taxes.
Same here. I asked my accountant today and he says, he doesn't know yet. Way too many variables still.
Because more people will be earning more.
Liberals are pissing and moaning because those in the bottom brackets may have to actually start paying some tax. But IMNSHO, that is a good thing. Hopefully enough of them will get jobs and earn enough that almost everybody will have to pay taxes. Around 40% pay nothing now. How is that a good thing?
Post by: bflynn on December 20, 2017, 02:45:32 AM
Looks like this will happen today. I would not call this reform by s long shot. But if my taxes wind up lower that would be nice. I am not hopeful.
Post by: LevelWing on December 20, 2017, 03:55:01 AM
Post by: Lucifer on December 20, 2017, 04:40:29 AM
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 20, 2017, 07:45:53 AM
Well, I think everyone still should go through the exercise of figuring deductions, it’s just that fewer will find itemizing to be better for them.
Looks like this will happen today. I would not call this reform by s long shot. But if my taxes wind up lower that would be nice. I am not hopeful.
Agree on all points. But at least the ObamaTax is gone. Who knows what that will do to premiums, but most OC hasn't been a hit for healthy young people and the
Post by: nddons on December 20, 2017, 11:06:48 AM
Winter/Spring 2018 will be my 35th tax season. I’ve been around the block, and have been through most of the Code and related Regulations in some depth.
Stan,
Do you really feel you understand the entire tax code? Serious question, since you're in the biz.
That being said, no. No one can understand the entire Code. There are parts where I’m a mile deep, but there are parts where I’m necessarily a mile wide but only an inch deep.
Here’s a good exercise. Open up the index to the Internal Revenue Code: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26
Then open up the first Subtitle - Subtitle A - Income Taxes.
Then open up the first Chapter - Chapter 1 - Normal Taxes and Surtaxes.
Then open up the first Subchapter - Subchapter A. Determination of Tax Liability.
Then see the Sections below each of those.
That’s a large body of information. I’m pretty well versed in Chapters 1, 2, 6, 11, 12, 14, 21, 23, 24, 25, 61, 62, etc. My point is that some areas are just outside of my client base and thus outside of my expertise. You can’t possibly know it all.
Post by: nddons on December 20, 2017, 11:18:58 AM
https://townhall.com/columnists/terryjeffrey/2017/12/20/30417609-paid-0-income-taxes-got-896-billion-back-n2424825One of the largest producers of taxpayers who pay zero income taxes was first George W Bush tax cuts. You can see how well that benefitted his political career.
Post by: nddons on December 20, 2017, 11:21:48 AM
Agree on all points. But at least the ObamaTax is gone. Who knows what that will do to premiums, but most OC hasn't been a hit for healthy young people and theThe mandate penalty “tax” (thanks a lot, John fucking Roberts) is gone, but other Obamacare Taxes such as the 3.8% net investment income tax remains. Thanks, GOP.finetax is not that bad if you're below some minimum.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on December 20, 2017, 11:23:17 AM
One of the largest producers of taxpayers who pay zero income taxes was first George W Bush tax cuts. You can see how well that benefitted his political career.
"There were 30,417,609 filers who did not pay income taxes and received $89,614,869,000 in cash back from the federal government.
"In other words, they got $89,614,869,000 in welfare payments."
Post by: nddons on December 20, 2017, 11:27:09 AM
"There were 30,417,609 filers who did not pay income taxes and received $89,614,869,000 in cash back from the federal government.Yep. And then scream like stuck pigs that they didn’t “get any” of the tax cuts that just passed.
"In other words, they got $89,614,869,000 in welfare payments."
That’s OK. The media will surely set those people straight with the facts. Or better yet, the GOP with their magnificent messaging skills will explain it to the voting public in nice, easy to understand language so they realize they are already getting a good deal.
Post by: Little Joe on December 20, 2017, 12:18:18 PM
Understanding the tax code, and memorizing every line are two different things.
Stan,
Do you really feel you understand the entire tax code? Serious question, since you're in the biz.
Over the years, I have hit my CPA up with many questions that I thought were obscure, and he knew most of the answers off the top of the head. The rest of the time, he knew just where to look, and when he read a regulation that was Greek to me, he was able to explain it and it's repercussions.
He didn't know every line of every reg, but I always felt like he had an understanding of the entire code".
Post by: nddons on December 20, 2017, 12:22:32 PM
Understanding the tax code, and memorizing every line are two different things.Yes. When I got my Master of Science in Taxation, we become known as Code Heads.
Over the years, I have hit my CPA up with many questions that I thought were obscure, and he knew most of the answers off the top of the head. The rest of the time, he knew just where to look, and when he read a regulation that was Greek to me, he was able to explain it and it's repercussions.
He didn't know every line of every reg, but I always felt like he had an understanding of the entire code".
. Probably right around the time Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin were Cone Heads on SNL.
Post by: LevelWing on December 20, 2017, 12:34:11 PM
https://apnews.com/2d9e099660064f2b8a8fc2237b4e7e4e/It's-a-done-deal:-Congress-wraps-up-massive-tax-package
Post by: Anthony on December 20, 2017, 12:42:39 PM
The mandate penalty “tax” (thanks a lot, John fucking Roberts) is gone, but other Obamacare Taxes such as the 3.8% net investment income tax remains. Thanks, GOP.
I always thought the Administration must have had some dirt on Roberts to be able to make him rule the way he did. One of the most obvious signs of corruption in my lifetime. It goes against all the reasons he was appointed in the first place. Corruption has always existed to a degree, but the difference today is that it is blatant, and obvious, and the corrupt are no longer held accountable.
Post by: Number7 on December 20, 2017, 01:52:10 PM
I always thought the Administration must have had some dirt on Roberts to be able to make him rule the way he did. One of the most obvious signs of corruption in my lifetime. It goes against all the reasons he was appointed in the first place. Corruption has always existed to a degree, but the difference today is that it is blatant, and obvious, and the corrupt are no longer held accountable.
Because they have trash like Sessions to keep them safe.