PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Jaybird180 on February 05, 2016, 08:35:49 AM
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"Genetic changes stemming from the trauma suffered by Holocaust survivors are capable of being passed on to their children, the clearest sign yet that one person’s life experience can affect subsequent generations (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes). "
Yet Black people are bombarded with the mantra of 'let it go, that was in the past'.
I've read some estimates that put African losses at 600 million.
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"Genetic changes stemming from the trauma suffered by Holocaust survivors are capable of being passed on to their children, the clearest sign yet that one person’s life experience can affect subsequent generations (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes). "
Yet Black people are bombarded with the mantra of 'let it go, that was in the past'.
I've read some estimates that put African losses at 600 million.
What do you propose to do about helping the people that were kept as slaves?
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"Genetic changes stemming from the trauma suffered by Holocaust survivors are capable of being passed on to their children, the clearest sign yet that one person’s life experience can affect subsequent generations (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes). "
Yet Black people are bombarded with the mantra of 'let it go, that was in the past'.
I've read some estimates that put African losses at 600 million.
I wonder when the people in Africe who captured the slaves and sold them will be held accountable...
btw - did you read this "It’s not clear whether the gene changes found in the study would permanently affect the children’s health, nor do the results upend any of our theories of evolution."
you do understand that many factors effect health of children and adults, yes?
another btw - the study is hardly conclusive.
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Bob- (tongue in cheek) this is a case of finding evidence to support "crazy moon-bat" theories.
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I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I SAY! Shocked that an article about the Holocaust immediately turns to slavery.
As I said in a different thread, Jaybird has tapped into this subculture that denies ML King's call for a colorblind society, and calls whites racist for even suggesting that as a goal.
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I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I SAY! Shocked that an article about the Holocaust immediately turns to slavery.
As I said in a different thread, Jaybird has tapped into this subculture that denies ML King's call for a colorblind society, and calls whites racist for even suggesting that as a goal.
That MLK called for a colorblind society is a myth.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-martin-luther-king/2016/01/15/4094b44a-ba62-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-martin-luther-king/2016/01/15/4094b44a-ba62-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html)
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What do you propose to do about helping the people that were kept as slaves?
I'm guessing gene therapy. To have their DNA modified.
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That MLK called for a colorblind society is a myth.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-martin-luther-king/2016/01/15/4094b44a-ba62-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-martin-luther-king/2016/01/15/4094b44a-ba62-11e5-829c-26ffb874a18d_story.html)
In your opinion.
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I'm guessing gene therapy. To have their DNA modified.
Maybe REPERATIONS should be paid. The Obamas will donate theirs to Solyndra. Oh wait.
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I'm 110% in favor of making restitution to any surviving released American slaves.
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In your opinion.
To say such a thing is a perversion of what he advocated. Only those who fear or stand to lose standing as whites become the numerical minority advocate colorblindness.
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To say such a thing is a perversion of what he advocated. Only those who fear or stand to lose standing as whites become the numerical minority advocate colorblindness.
Dude, the fact that it's still being discussed means that it wasn't a myth when he said it. It's an interpretation of what he meant, and there are many people in the world who took it to be his vision. In fact, that's actually what he said:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Dream = vision.
Who the hell are you (as well as this author) to tell me what King's dream was, and declare my understanding to be a myth? Did you talk to him? He didn't say it WAS a colorblind society. Far from it, though that's the straw man developed in the article.
Ugh.
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Dude, the fact that it's still being discussed means that it wasn't a myth when he said it. It's an interpretation of what he meant, and there are many people in the world who took it to be his vision. In fact, that's actually what he said:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Dream = vision.
Who the hell are you (as well as this author) to tell me what King's dream was, and declare my understanding to be a myth? Did you talk to him? He didn't say it WAS a colorblind society. Far from it, though that's the straw man developed in the article.
Ugh.
Color blind means that we ignore the identity of people. Dr. King meant that we evaluate people based on their behavior and actions and not by defacto White = Right or the corollary Black = Guilty.
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Color blind means that we ignore the identity of people.
um no. That's not what it means.
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Color blind means that we ignore the identity of people. Dr. King meant that we evaluate people based on their behavior and actions and not by defacto White = Right or the corollary Black = Guilty.
Who the hell said that he meant a "defacto White = Right or the corollary Black = Guilty"?
You are seriously delusional on this point, JB. I'm sorry you have such hatred for white people. I guess in your world we can never live together and act like a color blind society. Segregation, separation, "equal but separate" forever more. In planetary terms, that's called "retrograde motion."
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"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
As an editor and English major, I cannot find anything in that statement to counter the impression that he is referring to "colorblindness." In fact, he is shifting the focus to character, where it belongs. He is not saying color does not matter, but that it is not a factor by which to judge someone.
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You are seriously delusional on this point, JB. I'm sorry you have such hatred for white people. I guess in your world we can never live together and act like a color blind society. Segregation, separation, "equal but separate" forever more. In planetary terms, that's called "retrograde motion."
You are delusional on what I said. I never anywhere said that I hate anyone of any race, color, class or creed, religious preference, social status, sexual orientation or whatever. That in your vanity and weak argument speaking because you dislike what I say, so you turn it around and make a strawman argument out of what I have said to try and defeat the truth of what I say because it doesn't favor your narrow view.
Who the hell said that he meant a "defacto White = Right or the corollary Black = Guilty"?
What else do you propose as the substance behind his words? Was he just saying it because it was clever, or was there existing a society that automatically favored white over black, regardless of the circumstances. That, my friend is called injustice. I propose to you it is the same injustice that we face today, as evidence by your stating that the twisting of his words is still be perpetuated and believed by wanna-be progressive whites, given to you as a sedative to calm your nerves. Dr King writes this:
Letter from a Birmingham Jail (http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html):
I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”
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"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
As an editor and English major, I cannot find anything in that statement to counter the impression that he is referring to "colorblindness." In fact, he is shifting the focus to character, where it belongs. He is not saying color does not matter, but that it is not a factor by which to judge someone.
BECKY is on the bullseye.
To further drive home what I was thinking Friday before I typed my last messag: ya'll fake, hypocritical lovers of Dr. King need to come off it. You edify his 1963 "I have a dream speech" and while ignoring everything that he said before and after it - because it's convenient. It was part of the anti-black movement agenda of the Federal Government to pit the two (apparent) prevailing methodologies of Dr. King's movement against Malcolm X (representing The Honorable Elijah Muhammad) and present the appearance of a mutually exclusive binary choice in the fervent hopes that the masses of the people (black and white) would choose (past and present) Dr. King's non-violent postulate over Malcolm and (certainly the Black Panther Party's) less or lack of concern for the aftermath after having their demands met.
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The science of Genetics involves the four letter nucleic acid code found in the chemical structure of deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. The science of epigenetic, a relative newcomer, involves all the other changes in DNA, which include methylation. The enzyme DNA methyltransferase can attach methyl groups to the nucleotide cytosine, in us it is most often a signal to reduce gene expression. There are well known examples of epigenetic phenomena in humans, including genomic imprinting and dosage compensation through X-inactivation.
The thought that environmental conditions can cause this sort of epigenetic programming is new, and not terribly well substantiated. The data in the paper report DNA methylation events, but do not show these events translating into relevant changes in gene expression or any sort of phenotypic change. Mice are very, very similar to humans on the genetic level and genetically tractable, if this could be observed mice would be the right model organism in which to look.
To be honest, such a mechanism makes sense in an evolutionary context. Darwin postulated that nature acted on extant genetic variation to confer fitness. That said, if makes some sense for an organism to be able to alter its genetic material in the face of environmental pressure to increase the fitness of its offspring.
All this said, it is very hard to believe that such epigenetic marks would persist for generations after the events that caused them. I think there are plenty feasibly identifiable social and economic factors that explain the plight of America's African-derived population without alluding to dubious epigenetic alterations.
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The science of Genetics involves the four letter nucleic acid code found in the chemical structure of deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. The science of epigenetic, a relative newcomer, involves all the other changes in DNA, which include methylation. The enzyme DNA methyltransferase can attach methyl groups to the nucleotide adenine, in us it is most often a signal to reduce gene expression. There are well known examples of epigenetic phenomena in humans, including genomic imprinting and dosage compensation through X-inactivation.
The thought that environmental conditions can cause this sort of epigenetic programming is new, and not terribly well substantiated. The data in the paper report DNA methylation events, but do not show these events translating into relevant changes in gene expression or any sort of phenotypic change. Mice are very, very similar to humans on the genetic level and genetically tractable, if this could be observed mice would be the right model organism in which to look.
To be honest, such a mechanism makes sense in an evolutionary context. Darwin postulated that nature acted on extant genetic variation to confer fitness. That said, if makes some sense for an organism to be able to alter its genetic material in the face of environmental pressure to increase the fitness of its offspring.
All this said, it is very hard to believe that such epigenetic marks would persist for generations after the events that caused them. I think there are plenty feasibly identifiable social and economic factors that explain the plight of America's African-derived population without alluding to dubious epigenetic alterations.
So you're saying:
Darwin makes sense (that what you were taught) though the science doesn't support the explanation per Darwin. You think that sociology and economics is a better pursuit as to why there are disparages in our society.
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So you're saying:
Darwin makes sense (that what you were taught) though the science doesn't support the explanation per Darwin. You think that sociology and economics is a better pursuit as to why there are disparages in our society.
Actually, Darwin makes perfect sense. I'm simply saying that if the study in question is correct (I am far from convinced it is) it would make good sense evolutionarily.
I went further in employing Occam's Razor, which posits that one should accept the simplest explanation for any given observation. I think that the social and economic conditions that have existed in this nation are more than enough to account for the deplorable socioeconomic condition of African Americans in this country, without resorting to some mythical epigenetic explanation.
Indeed I have to go just a bit further. If African Americans were indeed affected by such epigenetic phenomena, they would be biologically distinct from other non-African populations. At that point their deplorable condition today could be directly attributed to their biology, and not their horrible treatment at the hands of others. Moreover, one could posit that any attempt to redress their deplorable socioeconomic condition would be bound for failure due to the epigenetically altered biology.
I really like the simpler explanation better.
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Can I quote you on that?
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..... I think that the social and economic conditions that have existed in this nation are more than enough to account for the deplorable socioeconomic condition of African Americans in this country, without resorting to some mythical epigenetic explanation....
So what exactly are those "deplorable socioeconomic condition of African Americans in this country" besides the massive redistribution of wealth that has occurred since the war on poverty began a half century ago?
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So what exactly are those "deplorable socioeconomic condition of African Americans in this country" besides the massive redistribution of wealth that has occurred since the war on poverty began a half century ago?
and how different are the "deplorable socioeconominc conditions" for the poor of other races?
hint: people of every race are part of the population of poor.
of course, if you want to see really poor people, go to Haiti or Columbia.
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What if white people in America, who have been traumatized by our culture, have genes, too? Do White Genes Matter? When it comes to our behavior? Might as well let all hominoid bipeds off the hook here.
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So what exactly are those "deplorable socioeconomic condition of African Americans in this country" besides the massive redistribution of wealth that has occurred since the war on poverty began a half century ago?
Are you really so clueless that I have to answer this?
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Are you really so clueless that I have to answer this?
Spoken like a true educated idiot.
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or FC. :D
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Are you really so clueless that I have to answer this?
Michael. What has the "war on poverty", and the "Great Society" done for America in our lifetimes?
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This thread reminds me of a scenario we have seen in the animal world.
If a nice, sweet domesticated cat escapes into the wild, it will quickly become feral. If at some point, the cat is returned to a household situation, it can take time, but it can re-adapt.
If that cat has kittens in the wild, those kittens will be feral. But if the kittens are adopted into a loving home at an early age, they "may" be domesticated and become good pets.
But if those feral kittens have kittens, there is almost no chance those kittens will be domesticated. AND if those kittens are raised in a sheltered environment and they have kittens, those kittens will also be almost impossible to domesticate.
BUT, after a generation or two, those kitten's offspring can be fully domesticated.
I don't know if this is genetic mutation or sociological conditioning. But it does seem to be a trait that is passed to future generations. But it can also be reversed in relatively short order.
I can see how this would be translated in humans. A human that is taken out of their normal environment and put into a situation such as brutal slavery could possibly have an impact on some near-term future generations. But if the analogy holds, this should be lessened in a few generations. The holocaust was only a few generations ago. Slavery was many generations ago, but the continued discrimination could have slowed the recovery.
So I do believe there is some basis for Jaybird's hypothesis. But I think that rationale lessens (or should lessen) with each generation. I sincerely hope that we are nearing a time when that old trauma is truly weeded out. I think we are very close. But we aren't there yet.
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What do you propose to do about helping the people that were kept as slaves?
That was a very disrespectful post. I'll just leave it there.
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That was a very disrespectful post. I'll just leave it there.
Why , because it challenges your underlying premise?
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Michael. What has the "war on poverty", and the "Great Society" done for America in our lifetimes?
Created a very vibrant, very visible, but painfully small African American middle class.
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This thread reminds me of a scenario we have seen in the animal world.
If a nice, sweet domesticated cat escapes into the wild, it will quickly become feral. If at some point, the cat is returned to a household situation, it can take time, but it can re-adapt.
If that cat has kittens in the wild, those kittens will be feral. But if the kittens are adopted into a loving home at an early age, they "may" be domesticated and become good pets.
But if those feral kittens have kittens, there is almost no chance those kittens will be domesticated. AND if those kittens are raised in a sheltered environment and they have kittens, those kittens will also be almost impossible to domesticate.
BUT, after a generation or two, those kitten's offspring can be fully domesticated.
I don't know if this is genetic mutation or sociological conditioning. But it does seem to be a trait that is passed to future generations. But it can also be reversed in relatively short order.
What you're describing fits perfectly for epigenetic phenomena. Let me ask, how do you know this? Not trying to gainsay this, just curious how well documented and widespread a phenomena this is. I could never tell the difference between a stray and a "domesticated" cat, they all act the same as far as I can see.
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Created a very vibrant, very visible, but painfully small African American middle class.
What? The Black community was on the up rise in the 1950's, and then the Federal Government stepped in and in 1964 LBJ created the Great Society to keep them ENSLAVED. Government replaced the husband, and head of the household and rewarded having kids out of wedlock, and not working. It has destroyed the Black community. You are delusional if you believe the Black community has improved in the last fifty years.
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What you're describing fits perfectly for epigenetic phenomena.
Sure, but what he describes sure sounds more Lamarckian than Darwinian.
I have trouble seeing how essentially random genetic variation over just two generations could affect the genetics of domestic/feral cats in just two generations.
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If, as he claims, Jaybird is actually concerned about slavery, then why is there no plethora of posts about Muslim slave trading, Muslim sex slave trade, and Muslim slave holding in the current age?
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If, as he claims, Jaybird is actually concerned about slavery, then why is there no plethora of posts about Muslim slave trading, Muslim sex slave trade, and Muslim slave holding in the current age?
Because ... RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sure, but what he describes sure sounds more Lamarckian than Darwinian.
I have trouble seeing how essentially random genetic variation over just two generations could affect the genetics of domestic/feral cats in just two generations.
I could not. What I was thinking is a possible epigenetic pathway that responds to some sort of environmental stimulus. Take the example of the cats. Once stray, it is possible that some of the genes necessary for domestication are "shut off" by epigenetic phenomena. These would be expected to remain silenced in the immediate offspring of the feral cats, thus the offspring would stay feral in behavior. My hypothesis is that once the stimulus is removed, the epigenetic ground state should reassert itself within a couple generations, behavior shown by the cats in the poster's example. That's why I was asking after the veracity, it really does fit. Moreover, such a hypothesis is quite testable with today's methodology. There are some examples of epigenetic phenomena contributing to behavior, so this is not at all far-fetched.
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What? The Black community was on the up rise in the 1950's, and then the Federal Government stepped in and in 1964 LBJ created the Great Society to keep them ENSLAVED. Government replaced the husband, and head of the household and rewarded having kids out of wedlock, and not working. It has destroyed the Black community. You are delusional if you believe the Black community has improved in the last fifty years.
While I agree with you, unfortunately this only describes one segment of Black population but your broad brush make it appear that all of Black America was subject to and victim of Welfare.
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If, as he claims, Jaybird is actually concerned about slavery, then why is there no plethora of posts about Muslim slave trading, Muslim sex slave trade, and Muslim slave holding in the current age?
Let's agree that the world is pretty big place and there's suffering all over.
Accept the idea that the issues that interest me are purposeful and the purpose is more than entertainment.
If 1 + 2 are accepted then perhaps you may see a pattern.
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I could not. What I was thinking is a possible epigenetic pathway that responds to some sort of environmental stimulus. Take the example of the cats. Once stray, it is possible that some of the teens necessary for domestication are "shut off" by epigenetic phenomena. These would be expected to remain silenced in the immediate offspring of the feral cats, thus the offspring would stay feral in behavior. My hypothesis is that once the stimulus is removed, the epigenetic ground state should reassert itself within a couple generations, behavior shown by the cats in the poster's example. That's why I was asking after the veracity, it really does fit. Moreover, such a hypothesis is quite testable with today's methodology. There are some examples of epigenetic phenomena contributing to behavior, so this is not at all far-fetched.
I'll save you from saying that you were a bit hasty before.
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While I agree with you, unfortunately this only describes one segment of Black population but your broad brush make it appear that all of Black America was subject to and victim of Welfare.
While I agree with you, unfortunately this only describes one segment of White population but your broad brush makes it appear that all of White America was guilty of trading in and keeping slaves.
I think my Russian ancestors were likely not involved, so forgive me if I feel no guilt.
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While I agree with you, unfortunately this only describes one segment of White population but your broad brush makes it appear that all of White America was guilty of trading in and keeping slaves.
I think my Russian ancestors were likely not involved, so forgive me if I feel no guilt.
I am American, but of Italian decent. I would think my ancestors were probably Roman slaves of some sort. Yes, I need to get reparations from the Romans. Track down Julius, and let him know I'm coming after him, and that damn eagle of his! ;D
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Anthony brings up a point that will need to be addressed elsewhere. But suffice to say that free labor isn't the grippe (thought that is egregious).
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Let's agree that the world is pretty big place and there's suffering all over.
Accept the idea that the issues that interest me are purposeful and the purpose is more than entertainment.
If 1 + 2 are accepted then perhaps you may see a pattern.
I don't accept your premise, except as a way to shift the light off of my observation about CURRENT day slave taking, selling, and abuse, so as to avoid criticizing the Muslims that appear to be the major purveyor of that practice, currently.
If you want to bang the drum about slave owing in the 1600 - 1861 period, then be honest and bang the drum about slave taking, and selling by Africans that made it all possible, and the fact that untold millions of white Americans suffered and died to end the practice, which changes your inevitable complaints into something far more reasonable.
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I criticize whoever I want whenever I want and don't have to answer to you for when that is. BOOM!
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I criticize whoever I want whenever I want and don't have to answer to you for when that is. BOOM!
In other words you know you have lost your argument.
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You have a reading comprehension problem.
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This thread reminds me of a scenario we have seen in the animal world.
If a nice, sweet domesticated cat escapes into the wild, it will quickly become feral. If at some point, the cat is returned to a household situation, it can take time, but it can re-adapt.
If that cat has kittens in the wild, those kittens will be feral. But if the kittens are adopted into a loving home at an early age, they "may" be domesticated and become good pets.
But if those feral kittens have kittens, there is almost no chance those kittens will be domesticated. AND if those kittens are raised in a sheltered environment and they have kittens, those kittens will also be almost impossible to domesticate.
BUT, after a generation or two, those kitten's offspring can be fully domesticated.
I don't know if this is genetic mutation or sociological conditioning. But it does seem to be a trait that is passed to future generations. But it can also be reversed in relatively short order.
I can see how this would be translated in humans. A human that is taken out of their normal environment and put into a situation such as brutal slavery could possibly have an impact on some near-term future generations. But if the analogy holds, this should be lessened in a few generations. The holocaust was only a few generations ago. Slavery was many generations ago, but the continued discrimination could have slowed the recovery.
So I do believe there is some basis for Jaybird's hypothesis. But I think that rationale lessens (or should lessen) with each generation. I sincerely hope that we are nearing a time when that old trauma is truly weeded out. I think we are very close. But we aren't there yet.
As someone who has done a lot of cat rescue, what you type I really can't agree with at all. I can only speak to domestic house cats and know nothing about large cats.
Domesticated cats that have only known an indoor life and are dumped outside on their own often fail in the wild. Depending on character, some do survive, but a lot don't. Malnutrition and infection usually get them. People just want to believe this so they can feel better about ditching their pets when they move.
As to feral kittens, any feral kitten can be made into a great house pet and domesticated if you get them early enough as easy as those born in captivity. I have rescued dozens and successfully found them homes. I don't care what generation they are. Depending on character, even some adult feral cats can be domesticated although they are much, much more of a challenge than kittens. It should also be pointed out that a very small percentage of kittens just grow up wrong no matter how hard you try and don't make good pets.
To bring this discussion back to the topic of "genetic trauma" and not about cat rearing, I believe that if there is any passed on trauma, it is very unlikely that it has a much impact on over all development, or success of that person.
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I am American, but of Italian decent. I would think my ancestors were probably Roman slaves of some sort. Yes, I need to get reparations from the Romans. Track down Julius, and let him know I'm coming after him, and that damn eagle of his! ;D
How do you know? Your ancestors may have been the perpetrators and slave owners. You may seriously owe reparations to millions of people everywhere!! More DNA study will be required...
Now my ancestors where English, French and German, so I'm good. ;)
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I criticize whoever I want whenever I want and don't have to answer to you for when that is. BOOM!
That was a pretty good red tail imitation. Are you two in cahoots?
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That was a pretty good red tail imitation. Are you two in cahoots?
Like Batman and Bruce Wayne.
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That was a pretty good red tail imitation. Are you two in cahoots?
Well about damn time that SOMEBODY around here has a sense of humor.
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Like Batman and Bruce Wayne.
Best you can do is ride on someone else's joke tails? Go away.
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Best you can do is ride on someone else's joke tails? Go away.
Bruce Vain.
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Okay, nice acquittal.