Post by: nddons on September 07, 2017, 11:57:03 AM
What the fuck is going on?
http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/07/report-trump-schumer-agree-to-pursue-debt-ceiling-repeal/
Post by: Lucifer on September 07, 2017, 12:54:21 PM
Ryan was talking a good game about tax reform and acting like he was all set to push it through, but let's be real, he and McConnell had no real intentions on letting that get by either.
And as for the debt ceiling? What a joke that has been, it's never worked. It's there, but congress constantly raises it. What we need is a constitutional amendment to make these jackasses balance the budget and NOT spend money we don't have.
And oh, by the way, no one seemed too upset when Ryan pushed through the democrats last big spending budget for Obama and actually gave them more than they requested. Just saying.
Post by: Little Joe on September 07, 2017, 01:04:55 PM
I would say that even if the effect of every "debt ceiling" fight hadn't made the Rs look like idiots and losers.
The time to fight over the debt is when budgets are passed. Not later when all they are doing is deciding whether we should pay our bills or not. The only reason the debt ceiling still exists is so that each party could use it to piss the other party off. I am glad Trump isn't playing that game.
Post by: Lucifer on September 07, 2017, 02:26:26 PM
I'd say his days are numbered as Speaker.
And I like the idea of bringing in a Speaker from outside the congressional ranks, but I'm realistic enough to know congress would never permit that to happen.
Post by: Lucifer on September 08, 2017, 05:51:17 AM
Post by: Anthony on September 08, 2017, 05:54:18 AM
Post by: Lucifer on September 08, 2017, 06:02:07 AM
Paul Ryan, and Mitch McConnell are HUGE disappointments, as are the rest of the Establishment Republicans. The Democrats never did this to Obama. They were LOCK step.
That's because Ryan and McConnell represent the republican wing of the democrat party.
Post by: Number7 on September 08, 2017, 08:30:44 AM
Post by: LevelWing on September 08, 2017, 08:42:26 AM
Just an observation here, but since the establishment republicans aren't working with him and were getting ready to use the hurricanes as yet another excuse to delay legislation, Trump out flanked them and took away a big part of their tactics.By working with Democrats to get rid of an Article I legislative power?
Ryan was talking a good game about tax reform and acting like he was all set to push it through, but let's be real, he and McConnell had no real intentions on letting that get by either.I agree that Ryan likely wasn't planning to actually get tax reform done. There's been no plans, negotiations, or really even much talk about what tax reform will look like. That being said, Ryan was correct when he said that Article I serves an important role. Now if he only did something about it instead of just talking about it.
Post by: Anthony on September 08, 2017, 10:06:27 AM
Ryan and McConell are the swamp// along with pelosi, schumer and waters,, etc.
I knew better, but chose to believe it could work. I thought that maybe the moneyed interests that back the Establishment Republicans, and Democrats were able to be overcome by the sheer will of the people, and the election of Trump. I was foolish, and naïve to even think that. Unless these career politicians are voted out (and they won't be) during the 2018 elections, Trump will have to compromise with the R's, and D's, and instead of draining the Swamp, will become part of the Swamp. We have already seen it start to happen.
God help us.
Post by: LevelWing on September 08, 2017, 10:11:19 AM
I knew better, but chose to believe it could work. I thought that maybe the moneyed interests that back the Establishment Republicans, and Democrats were able to be overcome by the sheer will of the people, and the election of Trump. I was foolish, and naïve to even think that. Unless these career politicians are voted out (and they won't be) during the 2018 elections, Trump will have to compromise with the R's, and D's, and instead of draining the Swamp, will become part of the Swamp. We have already seen it start to happen.He didn't negotiate with Democrats, he agreed to what they wanted.
God help us.
Post by: Anthony on September 08, 2017, 10:27:10 AM
He didn't negotiate with Democrats, he agreed to what they wanted.
One can only hope he got something in return. That's a big "hope". Of anyone, you'd they he'd be able to negotiate with these creeps the same we he did with crooked politicians to get his buildings approved.
Post by: Lucifer on September 08, 2017, 06:09:17 PM
He didn't negotiate with Democrats, he agreed to what they wanted.
He may have agreed to what they (D) want, but the republicans still control the house and the senate. Now we'll see how Ryan and McConnell handle it.
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 12:47:13 AM
He may have agreed to what they (D) want, but the republicans still control the house and the senate. Now we'll see how Ryan and McConnell handle it.Now you have faith that Congress will stop this?
The hurricane aid relief package, which included a 3 month debt ceiling increase, has been signed by Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/house-set-to-vote-today-on-harvey-aid-package-that-would-also-raise-debt-ceiling/2017/09/08/728ddce8-9494-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.28b037a22dabd478688d23b4_story.html&usg=AFQjCNGw3LXkXDhtaDe3tYreu0n-_zQNzg
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on September 09, 2017, 03:46:41 AM
Post by: Little Joe on September 09, 2017, 05:27:02 AM
Why is there a debt ceiling?Because it gives politicians one more thing to argue over and to use as bargaining chips.
It makes no other sense to me. The amount of debt we incur should be under consideration during the budgeting process, not afterwards.
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 05:30:33 AM
Now you have faith that Congress will stop this?
The hurricane aid relief package, which included a 3 month debt ceiling increase, has been signed by Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/house-set-to-vote-today-on-harvey-aid-package-that-would-also-raise-debt-ceiling/2017/09/08/728ddce8-9494-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.28b037a22dabd478688d23b4_story.html&usg=AFQjCNGw3LXkXDhtaDe3tYreu0n-_zQNzg
I don't know. I do know that the establishment republicans and democrats have stopped everything else Trump has asked for, and as of right now their still holding up appointments.
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
For a republican majority to hold the house, the senate and the WH yet unable to push forward an agenda is pure pathetic. The establishment has such a death grip on the legislative process.
Post by: Anthony on September 09, 2017, 05:31:17 AM
Because it gives politicians one more thing to argue over and to use as bargaining chips.
It makes no other sense to me. The amount of debt we incur should be under consideration during the budgeting process, not afterwards.
The "Budget" is meaningless. I create, and maintain a budget at work. I do the same for my home. If I make a habit of going over budget, and do not correct, then make up for it elsewhere, there are dire consequences. Not so for the Federal government. There needs to be accountability.
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 05:31:54 AM
Because it gives politicians one more thing to argue over and to use as bargaining chips.Except that we don't have any real budgeting process. The debt ceiling is designed to control and manage the amount of debt the U.S. incurs. Increased debt can destabilize our currency and economy. If we end up with too much debt that we can't repay, not only will the economy stagnate and lead to a recession (or depression eventually if it gets bad enough), but can also lessen the value of the dollar.
It makes no other sense to me. The amount of debt we incur should be under consideration during the budgeting process, not afterwards.
It's fine to have a small amount of debt, which should be a small percentage of the GDP, but it can't just exponentially increase, either. By removing the debt ceiling, there is no limit to the amount that we may borrow and no forcing mechanisms to make Congress look at what we're spending. It's a terrible idea to just remove the debt ceiling altogether. It's an even worse idea to think that we can just keep going like we are.
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 05:35:38 AM
Why is there a debt ceiling?
Strictly a political tool that has no real meaning to the budget.
What we desperately need is a balanced budget constitutional amendment along with term limits for congress as well as a repeal of the 17th amendment. Career politicians are using the treasury and credit of the US as their personal slush funds to buy votes and influence.
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 05:36:19 AM
I don't know. I do know that the establishment republicans and democrats have stopped everything else Trump has asked for, and as of right now their still holding up appointments.I tend to agree with this. Trump can be persuaded to sign conservative legislation, but it takes Congress passing that legislation first. Trump also has to tell Congress what he's willing to sign or not sign, otherwise Congress is just wasting their time.
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
For a republican majority to hold the house, the senate and the WH yet unable to push forward an agenda is pure pathetic. The establishment has such a death grip on the legislative process.
Siding with the Democrats is not the right answer, though. He should never make deals with Pelosi or Schumer. Trump is in month 8 of his presidency and he's had no major legislative victories. He's got a few small wins here and there, but that's about it. If he wants tax reform, he needs to release a proposal of what he wants. Give Congress something to work with.
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 05:38:42 AM
Except that we don't have any real budgeting process. The debt ceiling is designed to control and manage the amount of debt the U.S. incurs. Increased debt can destabilize our currency and economy. If we end up with too much debt that we can't repay, not only will the economy stagnate and lead to a recession (or depression eventually if it gets bad enough), but can also lessen the value of the dollar.
It's fine to have a small amount of debt, which should be a small percentage of the GDP, but it can't just exponentially increase, either. By removing the debt ceiling, there is no limit to the amount that we may borrow and no forcing mechanisms to make Congress look at what we're spending. It's a terrible idea to just remove the debt ceiling altogether. It's an even worse idea to think that we can just keep going like we are.
And how many times has congress actually used the debt ceiling to stop spending and cut the budget?
What's the use of having a debt ceiling if congress can go in and use it as a political football and keep raising it at will?
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 05:38:49 AM
Strictly a political tool that has no real meaning to the budget.This is an argument for an Article V convention. Good luck.
What we desperately need is a balanced budget constitutional amendment along with term limits for congress as well as a repeal of the 17th amendment. Career politicians are using the treasury and credit of the US as their personal slush funds to buy votes and influence.
I'd be for a balanced budget amendment if it had certain provisions in there. It would also have to have some sort of enforcement mechanism to make sure it actually happened. As it stands now, the Constitution is constantly violated and nobody seems to care and there doesn't seem to be many repercussions (read: states suing Trump for rescinding an executive order as the latest example). If anything does happen, it takes years for it to reach SCOTUS.
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 05:40:09 AM
And how many times has congress actually used the debt ceiling to stop spending and cut the budget?You're right that it's a political football. It's not meant to be, though.
What's the use of having a debt ceiling if congress can go in and use it as a political football and keep raising it at will?
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 05:46:21 AM
I tend to agree with this. Trump can be persuaded to sign conservative legislation, but it takes Congress passing that legislation first. Trump also has to tell Congress what he's willing to sign or not sign, otherwise Congress is just wasting their time.
Siding with the Democrats is not the right answer, though. He should never make deals with Pelosi or Schumer. Trump is in month 8 of his presidency and he's had no major legislative victories. He's got a few small wins here and there, but that's about it. If he wants tax reform, he needs to release a proposal of what he wants. Give Congress something to work with.
He has made proposals of what he wants, but the establishment doesn't want to give him any big victories in congress. The establishment still thinks if they drag their feet and delay then it will tank Trump and ruin his chance for reelection. I've said it many times before, the establishment is playing a long game here in order to get one of their own (either R or D) back into the WH so they can resume business as usual.
Trump is using the democrats as a leverage. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The media as usual is making a bigger deal over this than it really is. Personally I believe this will play right into Trump's hands, we'll have to wait and see.
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 05:53:41 AM
This is an argument for an Article V convention. Good luck.
I'd be for a balanced budget amendment if it had certain provisions in there. It would also have to have some sort of enforcement mechanism to make sure it actually happened. As it stands now, the Constitution is constantly violated and nobody seems to care and there doesn't seem to be many repercussions (read: states suing Trump for rescinding an executive order as the latest example). If anything does happen, it takes years for it to reach SCOTUS.
I have my doubts we'll see an Article V convention in my lifetime, if ever. We've let the swamp get to large and too entrenched and the voters are too apathetic. Couple that with the large amount of activist judges sitting on the bench and even with amendments would take years to work through the courts.
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 05:54:45 AM
He has made proposals of what he wants, but the establishment doesn't want to give him any big victories in congress. The establishment still thinks if they drag their feet and delay then it will tank Trump and ruin his chance for reelection. I've said it many times before, the establishment is playing a long game here in order to get one of their own (either R or D) back into the WH so they can resume business as usual.If that's truly the establishment's thought process then it's flawed because Trump's supporters will likely support him no matter what. I think this is only going to cause Congressional Republicans to face primary challengers and lose in a lot of cases (read: Eric Cantor -- not related to Trump, obviously).
Trump is using the democrats as a leverage. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The media as usual is making a bigger deal over this than it really is. Personally I believe this will play right into Trump's hands, we'll have to wait and see.That's just silly. Trump has been a Democrat nearly all of his life and then became a Republican only recently and ran for president. Many of his senior level folks are Democrats as well (Jared and Ivanka, Steve Mnuchin, etc.). That's not to say he doesn't have Republicans around him (Mike Pence, Tom Price, Betsy DeVoss, etc.) but we shouldn't pretend that he's somehow playing, as many have put it, some super deep level of underwater, multi-level, chess game.
Negotiating with Democrats has never worked for Republicans and it's not going to work now. Republicans capitulate to Democrats all the time. Republicans shouldn't need to negotiate right now anyway. They control both houses of Congress. They have the ability to pass whatever bill they want and send it to Trump. He's already said he'd sign a clean repeal of Obamacare. The Republicans have the ability to get their legislation through, establishment legislation or conservative legislation.
Post by: Little Joe on September 09, 2017, 06:00:11 AM
But the debt ceiling, as it is used today makes no sense. It is only used to determine if we pay down the debt we already decided to incur. We should not be incurring debt if it exceeds the "ceiling". If a disaster occurs that requires more debt, then the ceiling should be raised BEFORE we authorize that debt.
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 06:18:01 AM
That's just silly. Trump has been a Democrat nearly all of his life and then became a Republican only recently and ran for president. Many of his senior level folks are Democrats as well (Jared and Ivanka, Steve Mnuchin, etc.). That's not to say he doesn't have Republicans around him (Mike Pence, Tom Price, Betsy DeVoss, etc.) but we shouldn't pretend that he's somehow playing, as many have put it, some super deep level of underwater, multi-level, chess game.
Negotiating with Democrats has never worked for Republicans and it's not going to work now. Republicans capitulate to Democrats all the time. Republicans shouldn't need to negotiate right now anyway. They control both houses of Congress. They have the ability to pass whatever bill they want and send it to Trump. He's already said he'd sign a clean repeal of Obamacare. The Republicans have the ability to get their legislation through, establishment legislation or conservative legislation.
You clearly don't understand and can't see beyond partisan principles. So what you are wanting to see is Trump stand firm with the establishment republicans while they (establishment republicans) continue to throw him under the bus.
And looking at the latest move, congress voted 316-90 to approve it. Now if memory serves me correctly there are not 316 democrats in the house. So why aren't you pointing some of your anger at the republicans who supported this deal? And also it passed the senate as well, again a republican controlled entity. Where's your disdain for those republican senators? If this was such a bad deal why did so many republicans back it? After all, the republicans could have put forth their own version, ran it through both houses and given it to the president for signature. They could have leveraged him as well. But they didn't, they didn't even try. Ask yourself Why?
Your lame attempt to paint Trump as a democrat is, well, lame. Yep, his past has his dealings with democrats in it, and that's been hashed out ad nauseam. Reagan began his political life as a registered democrat, so what? What counted was what he did in office, not ancient history.
Here's a quote on what just happened:
Quote
Asked about Trump working so closely with Democrats on the legislation, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said: “I think that the president’s focus was doing what was best for the American people. I think the last thing we want to do is play partisan politics when we have people in places like Texas and Louisiana that need financial support through the federal government.”
Here's another interesting quote:
Quote
More moderate Republicans welcomed the bipartisan approach.
“If we can reach across the aisle, we can get things done and not be held hostage by 30 or 40 people,” said Representative Peter King. “You can’t just have one party govern.”
And here is our establishment republicans playing politics:
Quote
Some House Republicans balked at attaching the two crucial fiscal measures to the bill and called it a win for Democrats. Republicans had wanted to raise the debt ceiling for a longer period that would have extended past the 2018 midterm elections.
The way I see it you align yourself with the establishment republicans in wanting to see Trump fail so you can see one of their own back in office. The swamps "business as usual" is comfortable for folks like yourself and you can watch the establishment R's and D's fight their phony fights on the Hill and you feel good about politics again.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fiscal/congress-approves-trumps-aid-and-debt-deal-with-democrats-idUSKCN1BJ1V5
Post by: LevelWing on September 09, 2017, 06:30:24 AM
You clearly don't understand and can't see beyond partisan principles. So what you are wanting to see is Trump stand firm with the establishment republicans while they (establishment republicans) continue to throw him under the bus.Well I guess because you say I don't understand, I must not!
I would like to see Republicans in Congress act like actual Republicans (read: conservatives) and not the establishment. I won't hold my breath waiting. I would like to see Trump negotiate like he says he's so good at and not give in to Democrats.
And looking at the latest move, congress voted 316-90 to approve it. Now if memory serves me correctly there are not 316 democrats in the house. So why aren't you pointing some of your anger at the republicans who supported this deal? And also it passed the senate as well, again a republican controlled entity. Where's your disdain for those republican senators? If this was such a bad deal why did so many republicans back it? After all, the republicans could have put forth their own version, ran it through both houses and given it to the president for signature. They could have leveraged him as well. But they didn't, they didn't even try. Ask yourself Why?Please show me my post where I indicated that I was happy or pleased or satisfied or [insert adjective] that Congress passed that legislation.
The Republicans could have put forth their own legislation that did not tie hurricane relief to the debt ceiling, but they didn't. Why didn't Trump veto it? Simple for both entities: nobody wanted to be seen as denying hurricane relief to those in need.
Your lame attempt to paint Trump as a democrat is, well, lame. Yep, his past has his dealings with democrats in it, and that's been hashed out ad nauseam. Reagan began his political life as a registered democrat, so what? What counted was what he did in office, not ancient history.The fact that you're trying to separate his past as "dealings" with Democrats instead of being a Democrat is laughable. I understand Reagan was a Democrat prior to being president and I also understand what matters is what they do in office. If you disagree (and you haven't said yet, that I know of) with tying hurricane relief to raising the debt ceiling, then I'd like to know why you think Trump was right to sign it.
The way I see it you align yourself with the establishment republicans in wanting to see Trump fail so you can see one of their own back in office. The swamps "business as usual" is comfortable for folks like yourself and you can watch the establishment R's and D's fight their phony fights on the Hill and you feel good about politics again.This is, again, laughable. Just because I do not agree with Trump on everything does not mean that I align myself with establishment Republicans. I align myself with conservative principles, not one particular person or party. The Republicans have become less and less conservative over time. This was also a major concern of the "Never Trump" movement during the campaign. If Trump got elected, we'd see a move away from conservative principles even more than we already had up to that point.
Multiple things can be true on an issue. The Republicans control both houses of Congress and yet they passed that legislation. Trump signed it. If they wanted to do it correctly, they would've passed a clean hurricane relief package and have Trump sign that and then fight it out over the debt ceiling. The Democrats won, again.
Post by: Lucifer on September 09, 2017, 06:59:18 AM
Well I guess because you say I don't understand, I must not!
You tend to take a very pollyanish approach to politics.
The Republicans could have put forth their own legislation that did not tie hurricane relief to the debt ceiling, but they didn't.
Yep, so why didn't they?
Why didn't Trump veto it?
How can he veto something that never got put on his desk?
Simple for both entities: nobody wanted to be seen as denying hurricane relief to those in need.
Strange how the republican leadership never even attempted to put forth anything.
The fact that you're trying to separate his past as "dealings" with Democrats instead of being a Democrat is laughable.
What's laughable is watching you fall back to the same old lame argument over and over when you get butt hurt.
This is, again, laughable. Just because I do not agree with Trump on everything does not mean that I align myself with establishment Republicans. I align myself with conservative principles, not one particular person or party. The Republicans have become less and less conservative over time. This was also a major concern of the "Never Trump" movement during the campaign. If Trump got elected, we'd see a move away from conservative principles even more than we already had up to that point.
You say one thing but then indicate another. I'm nearly stating an ongoing observation. You seem to think their is this "pure conservative" out there who will come along and everyone will rejoice and follow. I take it you believe in unicorns as well.
Multiple things can be true on an issue. The Republicans control both houses of Congress and yet they passed that legislation. Trump signed it. If they wanted to do it correctly, they would've passed a clean hurricane relief package and have Trump sign that and then fight it out over the debt ceiling. The Democrats won, again.
Ryan and McConnell are the leadership of their respective bodies. They could have done exactly what you stated, but they didn't. Ask yourself why? Could it be they are more closely aligned with their democrat counterparts than they let on?
The only thing the republican leadership is hacked off about is they failed at getting the debt ceiling pushed back beyond the 2018 mid terms so it wouldn't come back on them politically.
Post by: Anthony on September 09, 2017, 11:49:34 AM
Post by: lowtimer on September 09, 2017, 03:12:16 PM
Post by: nddons on September 11, 2017, 07:51:08 AM
Why is there a debt ceiling?So politicians of both parties have to ask The People to spend money we don't have. That our elected representatives act like Sweet Sweet Connie when it comes to fellating special interests and spending money we don't have doesn't make the need to ask The People any less important.
If an Article V Convention of the States doesn't get a Balanced Budget Amendment, we are all fucked anyway.