PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Becky (My pronouns are Assigned/By/God) on April 07, 2021, 03:38:54 PM
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United Airlines.
“Our flight deck should reflect the diverse group of people on board our planes every day. That’s why we plan for 50% of the 5,000 pilots we train in the next decade to be women or people of color. Learn more and apply now.”
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/united-airlines-diversity-goal-mocked-slammed
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"Nobody is so committed to 'diversity' that they'd willingly choose to board a plane piloted by someone who got the job through affirmative action,”
Don't be so sure of that. There are plenty of absolutely stupid people.
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"Nobody is so committed to 'diversity' that they'd willingly choose to board a plane piloted by someone who got the job through affirmative action,”
Don't be so sure of that. There are plenty of absolutely stupid people.
Liberals would and they would force you at gunpoint to do so, too if given the chance.
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Becky, you need to apply!
;)
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Since women have made up about 12% (+/- 1%) of student pilots the last 10 years, they’ll need to do some serious discriminating. I went to look at UA’s flight academy entrance requirements:
https://unitedaviate.com/aviate-program-career-paths/united-aviate-academy/admissions-program-details (https://unitedaviate.com/aviate-program-career-paths/united-aviate-academy/admissions-program-details)
“Submit your application – Complete a brief online application with basic information about yourself
Video interview – Add some color to your application by recording answers to interview questions
Assessments – Take a series of online assessments so we can learn about you — your strengths, your thinking style and how you prefer to work
Conditional acceptance – Celebrate the first milestone in your pilot career — conditional acceptance into United Aviate Academy. The conditions are:
Achieve the required score on the FAA knowledge test — study for the FAA knowledge test using a free prep kit we’ll provide
Obtain a FAA First Class Medical certificate — required before starting training
Pass background checks
Pass a drug screen
Provide physical proof of U.S. citizenship in the form of 1) a valid U.S. passport OR 2) an original or certified copy of your birth certificate along with a government-issued photo ID”
None of these are discriminatory and the number of women who seek to earn a pilot license (excuse me, certificate) is more a reflection of personal choice. Whether the gender difference is due to cultural or genetic factors, UA knows they aren’t doing anything new that hasn’t been tried before - this a clear case of virtue signaling from on high.
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Since women have made up about 12% (+/- 1%) of student pilots the last 10 years, they’ll need to do some serious discriminating. I went to look at UA’s flight academy entrance requirements:
https://unitedaviate.com/aviate-program-career-paths/united-aviate-academy/admissions-program-details (https://unitedaviate.com/aviate-program-career-paths/united-aviate-academy/admissions-program-details)
“Submit your application – Complete a brief online application with basic information about yourself
Video interview – Add some color to your application by recording answers to interview questions
Assessments – Take a series of online assessments so we can learn about you — your strengths, your thinking style and how you prefer to work
Conditional acceptance – Celebrate the first milestone in your pilot career — conditional acceptance into United Aviate Academy. The conditions are:
Achieve the required score on the FAA knowledge test — study for the FAA knowledge test using a free prep kit we’ll provide
Obtain a FAA First Class Medical certificate — required before starting training
Pass background checks
Pass a drug screen
Provide physical proof of U.S. citizenship in the form of 1) a valid U.S. passport OR 2) an original or certified copy of your birth certificate along with a government-issued photo ID”
None of these are discriminatory and the number of women who seek to earn a pilot license (excuse me, certificate) is more a reflection of personal choice. Whether the gender difference is due to cultural or genetic factors, UA knows they aren’t doing anything new that hasn’t been tried before - this a clear case of virtue signaling from on high.
Bingo on all counts. Corporations are now politicians. They can SAY whatever they want. Words, Actions and RESULTS are totally different.
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"Nobody is so committed to 'diversity' that they'd willingly choose to board a plane piloted by someone who got the job through affirmative action,”
Don't be so sure of that. There are plenty of absolutely stupid people.
As an example look at how many people were elected to office or appointed to cabinet/other high level gov positions based on their race/sex/wackadoodleness this last election cycle.
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So if I apply and don't get hired, I can sue for discrimination? Or doesn't it work that way since I'm a white male?
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So if I apply and don't get hired, I can sue for discrimination? Or doesn't it work that way since I'm a white male?
you can sue.
you won't win
but you can sue
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This is not new for UAL. Several years ago they got on the same kick, and went out and hired minorities and women. Problem was, they couldn't get the numbers they wanted, so for those two groups they lowered the requirements to get more bodies.
Fast forward a few years, when many in that seniority segment were eligible to upgrade, and they started seeing high failure rates. The "lower the requirement" to accept anyone in a demographic that had a pulse came back to bite them hard.
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Becky, you need to apply!
;)
You noticed! 🤣
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Can you imagine being a person of color and a capable pilot? You’d forever be under the stigma of being a diversity hire, even if you weren’t.
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Can you imagine being a person of color and a capable pilot? You’d forever be under the stigma of being a diversity hire, even if you weren’t.
I forgot who it was but there’s a black guy that does YouTube videos. He said the horrible result of this is that if he needed surgery he would prefer a white surgeon because of the chance the black surgeon was hired for diversity purposes and was not in fact the most qualified.
The theory is, you have two equally qualified candidates, one white and one black and the white is chosen because racism so this needs to be corrected for. Yes that definitely has happened, especially in the past. But the correction, mandating diversity, is an insane solution. It assumes you will have a sufficient number of equally qualified black (or whatever minority) candidate and the reality is you simply do not. It is a solution based on an incorrect premise.
Now the reasons you don’t may have roots in racism. Lack of opportunity for education for example. In the case of women, they simply prefer not to do certain careers. But if you have to show diversity and you don’t have qualified candidates then you must lower the bar and accept someone less qualified. This does nobody any favors.
The actual solution in the case of blacks is to solve the poverty problems that result in a shortage of qualified candidates in the first place. In the case of women why the hell can’t we just accept that women are temperamentally different than men.
Right now diversity requirements are resulting in active discrimination against white males even when they are more qualified than other candidates. This damages everyone.
It damages the minority hire because people think he got the job because of his or her race or gender, even if he was the most highly qualified. If he was less qualified he ends up not doing well with his job performance, not getting good evaluations and being resented by his coworkers.
It damages the white male if he doesn’t get a job he is actually the most qualified for, for no reason other than his race (i.e. racism). If he is actually less qualified he may blame diversity for not getting the job and that creates resentment toward minorities.
It damages the company because they are getting lower performance for their money because of lowering the bar for hiring.
It damages all of society and the economy because of artificially directing resources to less productive hires.
Let’s get real. In the case of blacks there is a problem no one wants to talk about. They, on average, score lower on IQ tests, have less access to higher education, more poverty, poorer nutrition, and lack a father in the home. The result is fewer blacks who are on the high end of the IQ scale, go through college, have a stable healthy upbringing and end up as high quality candidates. So those blacks who do get hired because they are are actually superior now have the stigma that they got hired because of their skin color! And the less qualified ones who get hired end up having poor job performance issues. Meanwhile we aren’t solving the causes of the problems bringing down the “average” black and preventing him from participating in the higher level jobs.
Nobody wants to talk about the IQ difference which is highly correlated to profession. More intelligence is required for the higher paying professions, it’s a fact. It’s my theory that poor nutrition due to poverty during fetal development is probably the main cause of lower average IQ scores among blacks. Michelle Obama tried to improve nutrition in the inner cities but it turns out to be easier said than done but she was right about it being a core cause of poor outcomes in adulthood. Unprocessed healthy organic foods are expensive and often hard to get in these communities yet there’s always McDonald’s.
Women have an IQ issue too. While women’s average IQ is the same as men’s, they have a steeper bell curve, meaning more women are closer to the mean, and fewer are on the high or the low end. This results in fewer females at the high end of the IQ scale and so, like blacks, fewer candidates who are intellectually capable of being pilots, surgeons, lawyers, etc.
I have no idea what the cause of the different shaped bell curve in women is, but woman also are temperamentally less inclined than men to dedicate the kind of focus to a career that is required of high level jobs. On average, before you bash me about the exceptions.
We are ignoring the real cause of the disparities in high level jobs and making it a political issue of hatred and bigotry.
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Rush, did you read the book “The Bell Curve”? I ask because your points regarding IQ are pretty much a summary of the points made in that book. I read it about 10 years ago. Found a copy while at a book fair - saw it was about intelligence and thought it would be a smart purchase. Only found out later how controversial it was.
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Rush, did you read the book “The Bell Curve”? I ask because your points regarding IQ are pretty much a summary of the points made in that book. I read it about 10 years ago. Found a copy while at a book fair - saw it was about intelligence and thought it would be a smart purchase. Only found out later how controversial it was.
I don’t know if I’ve read it or not. If I have it was a long time ago.
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The problem is assuming that opportunity = success. A better formula might be Determination + Preparation + Opportunity = Success. If you are not prepared for the opportunity that is in front of you, then you have disqualified yourself.
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POA thread
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/this-is-a-really-bad-idea-imo.131588/
what's the over/under on the number of "IBTL" posts? (I'm disqualified because I did one of the IBTL posts)
what's the over/under on how soon the thread gets locked?
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The problem is assuming that opportunity = success. A better formula might be Determination + Preparation + Opportunity = Success. If you are not prepared for the opportunity that is in front of you, then you have disqualified yourself.
Another huge problem is assuming every person has the potential to be in high paying professional jobs. There are people who literally cannot, ever, in their lifetime, no matter how much you try to educate them, be an airline pilot, nor would you want them to be. Someone with an IQ of 70 will never end up with an IQ of 120, you can’t make it happen. No one wants a 70 IQ airline pilot. But it’s “racist” to even mention this. But this applies to whites also. The racial IQ difference is an average only. You can’t infer anything about any one individual.
So no matter how much determination, preparation and opportunity you provide, there is an envelope of potential you won’t escape. Telling people that if only you want it bad enough and work hard enough you can be anything only gives false hope to those on the bottom part of the bell curve. It’s cruel. You set them up for failure.
Note that there is no push for diversity in low paying labor. For example, where are the woke SJWs when companies hire Hispanics instead of blacks for these jobs? It’s one of the biggest reasons for the increased black male support for Trump. Illegal Hispanics filling jobs that traditionally were available to blacks.
If IQ is related to prenatal nutrition and maternal health, and if one of the dreams of black descendants of slaves is to go to college and join the middle and upper classes, then if a black father could have a job, any paying job, this increases the chance of better brain development and better opportunities for his children. If he himself can’t qualify to be a brain surgeon, then there need to be jobs he can qualify for, then maybe his children or grandchildren will climb the ladder higher.
Increasing diversity in high paying jobs only helps the individuals far to the right on the bell curve. It does absolutely nothing for those on the left of the curve trapped in the inner cities or Appalachia (whites have this same issue) where globalization killed the jobs.
So this diversity bullshit only helps those blacks least in need of help and does absolutely nothing for those most in need.
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POA thread
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/this-is-a-really-bad-idea-imo.131588/
what's the over/under on the number of "IBTL" posts? (I'm disqualified because I did one of the IBTL posts)
what's the over/under on how soon the thread gets locked?
aaaaaaand, it's locked (without comment from the MC).
SURPRISE!
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The problem is assuming that opportunity = success. A better formula might be Determination + Preparation + Opportunity = Success. If you are not prepared for the opportunity that is in front of you, then you have disqualified yourself.
That’s exactly correct.
My FIL was a professor in the College of Education at Illinois State University. He was a classic liberal, not a leftist, and had a lot of common sense.
He was disgusted by the push to send “everyone” to college. ISU was about 2 hours from Chicago, and the influx of people who were almost forced to attend college due to affirmative action, misguided guidance counselors and societal expectations.
He had too many people in class that didn’t have the desire or work ethic or preparation to make it as a teacher, yet he was a lone voice in the deans office, where his colleagues “celebrated” having all those people in the college of education.
He always said not everyone should go to college.
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POA thread
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/this-is-a-really-bad-idea-imo.131588/
what's the over/under on the number of "IBTL" posts? (I'm disqualified because I did one of the IBTL posts)
what's the over/under on how soon the thread gets locked?
20. Very, very, very soon. ;D ;D ;D
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aaaaaaand, it's locked (without comment from the MC).
SURPRISE!
How pathetic. Is there no better forum for that type of discussion than POA?
By the way, I had to look up what “IBTL” meant. Pretty funny.
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I'll admit my degree hasn't done squat for me. I only got it because the GI Bill paid for it, and the money leftover after paying tuition funded my flying lessons.
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Another huge problem is assuming every person has the potential to be in high paying professional jobs.
Not everyone can do it but anyone could. Setting aside roles that require legitimate high IQ - everyone has the potential to do anything because we all have potential to grow. But relatively few have the desire to develop their potential and therefore most people cannot do certain jobs.
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The problem is assuming that opportunity = success. A better formula might be Determination + Preparation + Opportunity = Success. If you are not prepared for the opportunity that is in front of you, then you have disqualified yourself.
I have a friend at work, she and her husband are Bosnian. They fled their country during the Bosnia/Herzegovina/Croatia wars, having little in their pockets. They arrived in Germany, lived with friends, cleaned houses, and saved enough for airfare to the USA. They arrived here with $20 in their pockets and stayed with friends. They knew little english, she started cleaning houses, he had car mechanic experience and got hired at an indy auto shop. They took courses to improve their english, she then started here, and over the past 23 years worked up to now being our lead documentation control specialist.[1] After the auto repair shop he got hired on as a mechanic at a large printing company, and is now the manager over facilities and maintenance.
As for living, they lived with the friend until they had enough to get a loan on a duplex in a bad part of town, but to them even the bad part of town in the US was heaven compared to the war torn hell they fled. They rented the second half of the duplex, paid it off, and bought a nice conservative home in solid middle class neighborhood. They kept the duplex and now rent out both halves.
Last year their first son graduated highschool, and they were so proud to be able to send him to college. It's stories like these that show me it's not where you came from, but where you're driven to go.
[1] Imagine that, a shy little 22year old girl who could hardly speak a word of english is now in charge of our entire documentation system. And she does a damned good job because she's a hard worker, holds her self to an incredibly high standard, and does not tolerate sloppy work.
Edit: Oh, they also went thru the official naturalization classes and tests, and now are dual citizens.
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I’m loving this discussion. Posted a new thread at POA inviting participation here to those stymied by the axe the MC gave to their United diversity thread.
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They deleted my thread almost instantly. Wow. Nothing against the rules in it, I would think.
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They deleted my thread almost instantly. Wow. Nothing against the rules in it, I would think.
LOL!!!
Cancel culture is alive and well in the MC...........
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Put up another one and they deleted it instantly too.
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But yet when that idiot that started the pilot's place forum went there, ran multiple post advertising his new forum not a word was said, and they didn't remove his post.
Oh wait......that guy is a leftist idiot........ nevermind.
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Not everyone can do it but anyone could. Setting aside roles that require legitimate high IQ - everyone has the potential to do anything because we all have potential to grow. But relatively few have the desire to develop their potential and therefore most people cannot do certain jobs.
IQ being equal, that’s true, although some personality characteristics make it much easier to succeed and they too are if not inborn, set very early in life. Being high in conscientiousness is associated with success in life. I believe being high in neuroticism is inversely associated. We all have potential to better ourselves but not all of us have potential to be the top of the heap, even if we do have high intelligence.
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Put up another one and they deleted it instantly too.
oh my.
Was the 2nd thread identifying the UAL nonsense too?
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Put up another one and they deleted it instantly too.
did they say anything to you or just silently delete them?
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oh my.
Was the 2nd thread identifying the UAL nonsense too?
Yes, I just said the discussion could continue here, and didn’t even give the name of our thread (controversial) but said it easily could be found in our Spin Zone.
No notice, no email, no warning. Just gone within about a minute.
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My guess is that some of their MC lurk here, see intelligent discussion, and can’t allow any crossover at all.
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I added "(www.pilotspin.com)" to my sig on POA - any bets on when that gets noticed and changed?
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Well darn them. I wanted to become informed about what UAL is doing and they deleted the information.
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The Soviet Union propagandaists would be proud.
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I added "(www.pilotspin.com)" to my sig on POA - any bets on when that gets noticed and changed?
how long?
not long, less than 2 hours.
I just checked and "(www.pilotspin.com)" was removed from my sig.
Even on this forum, i won't express my view of the current POA MC.
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how long?
not long, less than 2 hours.
I just checked and "(www.pilotspin.com)" was removed from my sig.
Even on this forum, i won't express my view of the current POA MC.
Next they will start removing PS members from POA membership rolls.
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Obviously someone is lurking here.
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Probably that pathetic snowflake Mari, or Bryan with a Y.
Let’s face it , liberals LOVE to be forced to think, do, and say whatever they are told, and HATE those of us that aren’t pussy, cowardly, submissive, tear-shedding twats
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Obviously someone is lurking here.
I totally agree.
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They deleted my thread almost instantly. Wow. Nothing against the rules in it, I would think.
POA got started in large part because of the heavy-handed moderation and ultimate closure of the AOPA forums.
Despite all the problems with that forum, discussions like the United Airlines thing would have been allowed.
POA is now much worse than the forum that gave birth to POA.
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My guess is that some of their MC lurk here, see intelligent discussion, and can’t allow any crossover at all.
Which violates the original intent, purpose and creation of Pilot Spin in the first place. It was supposed to be an "off site" Spin Zone for POA users and others of course. I don't visit POA anymore, but someone should address this with the MC. Wasn't there a Pilot Spin tab somewhere on POA people could click to come here?
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but someone should address this with the MC.
Thou Shall Not Question the MC!
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Luckily I saw one of the posts before it was removed, and now have a new forum to lurk on. ;D
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Luckily I saw one of the posts before it was removed, and now have a new forum to lurk on. ;D
Welcome aboard to the world of free speech and zero moderation.
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Luckily I saw one of the posts before it was removed, and now have a new forum to lurk on. ;D
Enjoy the ridiculous amount of alternative view points shared where the twits, twats and trolls have no power.
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Luckily I saw one of the posts before it was removed, and now have a new forum to lurk on. ;D
Cool! Welcome to the fight! Against tyranny that is.
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Luckily I saw one of the posts before it was removed, and now have a new forum to lurk on. ;D
Welcome. Please feel free to contribute.
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UAL is breaking ground once again!
https://genesiustimes.com/breaking-united-airlines-now-hiring-blind-people-to-be-pilots/
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UAL is breaking ground once again!
https://genesiustimes.com/breaking-united-airlines-now-hiring-blind-people-to-be-pilots/
Well why not? If they are motivated and try hard enough, they can do or be anything; right? Why discriminate against certain people because they have a condition that isn't their fault?
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UAL is breaking ground once again!
https://genesiustimes.com/breaking-united-airlines-now-hiring-blind-people-to-be-pilots/
If I remember right some years ago UAL was sued by 2 women who were legally blind for not hiring them as pilots. Said it was discrimination against the handicapped. I'll try to find that.
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If I remember right some years ago UAL was sued by 2 women who were legally blind for not hiring them as pilots. Said it was discrimination against the handicapped. I'll try to find that.
Interesting. What kind of reasonable accommodation did they expect? And how were they even pilots?
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If I remember right some years ago UAL was sued by 2 women who were legally blind for not hiring them as pilots. Said it was discrimination against the handicapped. I'll try to find that.
This story is suspiciously close, except they weren’t blind, so might not be what you were referring to:
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jan/20/twin-sisters-sue-airlines-over-sight-rule-spokane/ (https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jan/20/twin-sisters-sue-airlines-over-sight-rule-spokane/)
I’ll take a guess and suggest that it is indeed where your story originated but the eyesight details were corrupted somewhere in transit.
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Did a bit of extra searching and found that the women (twin sisters) flew for regionals but suffered severe myopia (worse than 20/200, but correctable to 20/20) while the airline’s uncorrected threshold was 20/100. Their case went to the SCOTUS and they lost - details here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-1943.ZS.html (https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-1943.ZS.html)
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Did a bit of extra searching and found that the women (twin sisters) flew for regionals but suffered severe myopia (worse than 20/200, but correctable to 20/20) while the airline’s uncorrected threshold was 20/100. Their case went to the SCOTUS and they lost - details here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-1943.ZS.html (https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-1943.ZS.html)
Wow. I’m okay with that. My vision is worse than that but correctable with lenses. But your glasses can fall off your face and get crushed. I wouldn’t want an airline pilot in a plane I’m in seeing worse than 20/100 if that happened. He/she would still reasonably be able to see instruments and distant images albeit blurred.
But why didn’t those twins just get lasik?
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Wow. I’m okay with that. My vision is worse than that but correctable with lenses. But your glasses can fall off your face and get crushed. I wouldn’t want an airline pilot in a plane I’m in seeing worse than 20/100 if that happened. He/she would still reasonably be able to see instruments and distant images albeit blurred.
But why didn’t those twins just get lasik?
Looks like Lasik wasn’t approved by the FDA until sometime in 1995 but it looks like the lawsuit was filed January 1996. So at the time they applied at UAL and were rejected, Lasik might not have been an option.
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Looks like Lasik wasn’t approved by the FDA until sometime in 1995 but it looks like the lawsuit was filed January 1996. So at the time they applied at UAL and were rejected, Lasik might not have been an option.
Ah that explains it.
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Ah that explains it.
I just found out that as of 2007 the military was accepting pilot candidates who had PRK or LASIK surgery to bring their uncorrected vision within acceptable range. Previously such surgery would disqualify them from flight school.
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BFOQ 'Bona fide occupational qualification' covers companies for hiring physically more qualified people.
It can be race related, like hiring only oriental people for front of house work in a Chinese food restaurant.
It can be that a fireperson has to be able to dead lift a certain weight to show the physical strength to pick something up.
It can be that a pilot has to have 20/20 vision.
Most companies do not want to hire less qualified people to do a job.
I do not know if UAL is going to do that now or not, I can say I was not hired a few times due to the fact that I am white and have a penis. I can add that I went on to start my own business and make a s*** ton more money.
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I can say I was not hired a few times due to the fact that I am white and have a penis. I can add that I went on to start my own business and make a s*** ton more money.
I used to want to play pro basketball, but I felt I was discriminated against because I was short and white. I guess I did ok in my alternate careers, but nothing like an NBA player makes.
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I used to want to play pro basketball, but I felt I was discriminated against because I was short and white. I guess I did ok in my alternate careers, but nothing like an NBA player makes.
That's vertically challenged and lacking in pigmentation.............