PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Little Joe on December 01, 2016, 06:14:05 AM
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I feel like a liberal now, because this is based on emotion, but I think it should be illegal to burn the American Flag on American soil.
And while the press is crucifying Trump for saying that, they mostly ignore the fact that HRC said the same thing in 2005.
I agree wholeheartedly with "Freedom of Speech", but I am less enthralled with "Freedom of Actions". Perhaps if the Constitution said "Freedom of Expression" it would be different, but it didn't. Why not?
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Trump is having fun, no way he would outlaw flag burning even if he could. We haven't been hearing too much about Trump's cabinet selection process lately have we?
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Don't pass a law making flag burning a crime. Make a law that states that those who kick the living shit out of the flag burners get a free pass. Problem will fix itself pretty damn fast, IMHO.
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“If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." - Justice William Brennan
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I'm pretty conservative on most issues. I hate the idea of burning the flag, and think it is disgusting, however I would not be in favor of any sort of law that made it illegal.
I lump it into the KKK having the right to march, etc. Disgusting stuff, but I firmly believe it is there right to do so.
-Dan
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"Well, OK, I'll pass on doing anything about flag burning, but you have to give in on something too".
You're not going to believe the deals that he makes. The other day I heard a liberal on NPR complain that if Trump pulls out of the Paris global warming agreement then other countries might have to attach those policies to trade agreements in the future. So if Trump unilaterally cancels Obama's agreement, we can then use some of the lesser items in the agreement as bargaining chips in future trade negotiations to secure better trade deals for America? Well that sounds like churning butter out of air.
When you know that your opponent wants it so bad that they will never walk away, you've already won.
Trump's supporters will do well to remember that.
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I guess some liberterian is showing, but I can't see making flag burning illegal.
However, freedom of speech doesn't excuse destruction of public property or property belonging to individuals... or the hazard created by burning something without proper safety (e.g., fire extinquishers, etc)
But I must admit to having unchristian thoughts when a flag-burner accidently sets themself on fire.
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“If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." - Justice William Brennan
Except when the guy in Florida decided to burn a Koran...
Funny how liberals can work both sides of the mouth with equal ferocity.
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I must be in a tiny minority when it comes to flag burning: it doesn't elicit any emotion from me at all. It is just cloth to me. There are many other actions that move me emotionally, just not any that come to mind that relate to social or political symbols.
With respect to free speech, such that it exists and can be preserved, I think:
The SCOTUS was right when it ruled flag burning was protected by the first amendment.
It was also right in its first amendment ruling in the Citizens United ruling.
P.S. Supposing flag burning was against the law - would or should a moving GIF image showing a flag burning also be against the law? (Such gif images do exist.)
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I must be in a tiny minority when it comes to flag burning: it doesn't elicit any emotion from me at all. It is just cloth to me.
No surprise there.
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No surprise there.
(http://blog.onemodelplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Firemen-Raise-Flag1.jpg)
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No surprise there.
Same with women burning their bras - their cloth to burn.
Same with people burning their books - their paper to burn.
If you want to get angry at any of these - great on you. I think you're being played.
But if they mess with other people's stuff or their lives or physical well being, then I agree that's worth getting angry about and passing laws against (fortunately that is already the case.)
People want to outlaw an action that would otherwise be legal - if it weren't for the symbolism involved - precisely because the idea expressed elicits angry emotions. "Unclear on the concept" of the first amendment comes to mind.
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Same with women burning their bras - their cloth to burn.
Same with people burning their books - their paper to burn.
If you want to get angry at any of these - great on you. I think you're being played.
But if they mess with other people's stuff or their lives or physical well being, then I agree that's worth getting angry about and passing laws against (fortunately that is already the case.)
People want to outlaw an action that would otherwise be legal - if it weren't for the symbolism involved - precisely because the idea expressed elicits angry emotions. "Unclear on the concept" of the first amendment comes to mind.
you wrote this pearl of wisdom:
I must be in a tiny minority when it comes to flag burning: it doesn't elicit any emotion from me at all. It is just cloth to me.
That piece of "just cloth" doesn't mean anything to you (to which no one would be surprised) but to many it is a symbol of our great country.
My family dates back to the early 1700's in this country. I've had members of my family fight, and some die, in every major war this country has fought including the Revolutionary War. I've traveled the world over my life and have seen where that flag flies the respect it's given, even if on foreign soil. It's an enduring symbol of prosperity and freedom, not just to Americans but many around the globe.
But to simpletons such as yourself, it's just a piece of cloth.
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I must be in a tiny minority when it comes to flag burning: it doesn't elicit any emotion from me at all. It is just cloth to me. There are many other actions that move me emotionally, just not any that come to mind that relate to social or political symbols.
I was going to reply to this earlier, but I couldn't find the right words.
I still can't.
Talk about irreconcilable differences!
Suppose someone peed on a picture of your mother while uttering hateful words. I guess that wouldn't bother you either because it is just paper.
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People want to outlaw an action that would otherwise be legal - if it weren't for the symbolism involved - precisely because the idea expressed elicits angry emotions. "Unclear on the concept" of the first amendment comes to mind.
How do you feel about "Hate Crimes"?
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you wrote this pearl of wisdom:
That piece of "just cloth" doesn't mean anything to you (to which no one would be surprised) but to many it is a symbol of our great country.
My family dates back to the early 1700's in this country. I've had members of my family fight, and some die, in every major war this country has fought including the Revolutionary War. I've traveled the world over my life and have seen where that flag flies the respect it's given, even if on foreign soil. It's an enduring symbol of prosperity and freedom, not just to Americans but many around the globe.
But to simpletons such as yourself, it's just a piece of cloth.
Why would you call him a simpleton?
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you wrote this pearl of wisdom:
That piece of "just cloth" doesn't mean anything to you (to which no one would be surprised) but to many it is a symbol of our great country.
My family dates back to the early 1700's in this country. I've had members of my family fight, and some die, in every major war this country has fought including the Revolutionary War. I've traveled the world over my life and have seen where that flag flies the respect it's given, even if on foreign soil. It's an enduring symbol of prosperity and freedom, not just to Americans but many around the globe.
But to simpletons such as yourself, it's just a piece of cloth.
That certainly is interesting but pretty much misses the entire point of this thread. You should be careful throwing around insults like "simpleton" since you are acting like one yourself.
Your forebears, along with mine, risked (and sometimes lost) their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor to protect principles such as "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..." and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
We get to own weapons and you get to use a GIF of a firing handgun while using a nom de guerre as a handle on this forum thanks both to the rules of the forum owner and the overlying government laws and constitution. And yet you get all huffy about someone else exercising their right to burn their American flag. That seems pretty disingenuous.
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That certainly is interesting but pretty much misses the entire point of this thread. You should be careful throwing around insults like "simpleton" since you are acting like one yourself.
Your forebears, along with mine, risked (and sometimes lost) their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor to protect principles such as "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech..." and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
We get to own weapons and you get to use a GIF of a firing handgun while using a nom de guerre as a handle on this forum thanks both to the rules of the forum owner and the overlying government laws and constitution. And yet you get all huffy about someone else exercising their right to burn their American flag. That seems pretty disingenuous.
I agreed with most of Lucifer's post, which is why I "liked" it. I do however question his calling you a Simpleton. Not only do I think it was unwarranted, but I don't believe it is true.
However, I fervently disagree with you that the symbol of our country is "just a piece of cloth". It is a piece of cloth that means a whole lot to a whole lot of people. Those marines on Iwo Jima did NOT just raise a piece of cloth.
I maintain my respect for you, but I am greatly disappointed in you.
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I do however question his calling you a Simpleton. Not only do I think it was unwarranted, but I don't believe it is true.
It's my opinion. After all, don't we have rights to our opinions?
However, I fervently disagree with you that the symbol of our country is "just a piece of cloth". It is a piece of cloth that means a whole lot to a whole lot of people. Those marines on Iwo Jima did NOT just raise a piece of cloth.
Agreed.
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Suppose someone peed on a picture of your mother while uttering hateful words. I guess that wouldn't bother you either because it is just paper.
Funny you should bring that up, because it is a more direct and personal threat to someone I care about (she just had her 96th birthday, BTW) and YET THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST THEIR ACT.
So are you proposing there should be a law against desecration of any picture or symbol that anyone may hold dear or considers threatening? I'm just trying to figure out what underlying principle you are starting from and what you think it should lead to.
Just to be clear, what I do concern myself with isn't the act of flag burning but rather the avowed motive and claims of the flag burner. The whole point of flag burning is to get people's attention and riled up. I'm not interested in giving them that satisfaction.
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It's my opinion. After all, don't we have rights to our opinions?
Agreed.
It's an ad hominem Luc and it seriously detracts from your points, which are usually spot on. More effective without them.
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It's an ad hominem Luc and it seriously detracts from your points, which are usually spot on. More effective without them.
It's my opinion of JL as I feel opinions as he wrote here are foolish, hence "simpleton".
No apologies.
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It's my opinion of JL as I feel opinions as he wrote here are foolish, hence "simpleton".
No apologies.
No apologies needed here.
I don't mind insults at all - shucks, I've been known to answer to someone yelling "Hey stupid!" with "Um, yeah?"
On the other hand, when someone does fire first with their opinion of my mental abilities I do sometimes like to use it as an opening to fire back in kind. Though after 28 some years of being on online forums I know that kind of response is eventually counterproductive.