PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: bflynn on March 02, 2021, 05:08:40 PM
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A PSA, because you won't see this on POA.
The Archdiocese of New Orleans, in light of guidance from the Vatican, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, and The National Catholic Bioethics Center affirm that though there was some lab testing that utilized the abortion-derived cell line, the two vaccines currently available from Pfizer and Moderna do not rely on cell lines from abortions in the manufacturing process and therefore can be morally acceptable for Catholics as the connection to abortion is extremely remote.
It is under the same guidance that the archdiocese must instruct Catholics that the latest vaccine from Janssen/Johnson & Johnson is morally compromised as it uses the abortion-derived cell line in development and production of the vaccine as well as the testing.
https://nolacatholic.org/news/a-statement-regarding-the-janssen-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine
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In December the Vatican saw differently from that Archdiocese:
"All vaccinations recognised as clinically safe and effective can be used in good conscience with the certain knowledge that the use of such vaccines does not constitute formal co-operation with the abortion from which the cells used in production of the vaccines derive," the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith announced in a statement on Monday.
The text, which was approved by Pope Francis, also said there was "a moral imperative" to ensure that poorer countries received access to effective vaccines.
Quoted from this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693)
Also, a while back I ran across the fact that “Human embryonic kidney (HEK)293T/17” were used during the testing of the Pfizer vaccine (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1.full.pdf (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1.full.pdf)). According to Wikipedia “circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that it [the HEK 293 line] came from an elective abortion. In the context of Catholic teaching, this presents ethical difficulties for using HEK 293 and derivative products, such as vaccines.” From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEK_293_cells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEK_293_cells)
That wikipedia entry also states:
Additionally, pro-life medical ethicists have said that since the cell lines are immortal, receiving the COVID-19 vaccine does not increase demand for abortion. Therefore, in their view, getting the COVID-19 vaccine is consistent with a pro-life position.[citation needed]
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Either way, one reason I left the Catholic Church was because I make my moral decisions myself, I don't look to a Pope or anyone else to tell me what's right and wrong. I'm not getting the vaccine anyway so that saves me the trouble of wrangling over this one.
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In December the Vatican saw differently from that Archdiocese:
Quoted from this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693)
Also, a while back I ran across the fact that “Human embryonic kidney (HEK)293T/17” were used during the testing of the Pfizer vaccine (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1.full.pdf (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1.full.pdf)). According to Wikipedia “circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that it [the HEK 293 line] came from an elective abortion. In the context of Catholic teaching, this presents ethical difficulties for using HEK 293 and derivative products, such as vaccines.” From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEK_293_cells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEK_293_cells)
That statement is consistent with the Archdioceses statement. They agree that material used in the early testing is sufficiently disconnected.
The new information is that the J&J vaccine uses aborted fetal cells in the production of the virus. What is injected into your body is the result of interaction with cells from a murdered baby. If you're morally OK with that, then it isn't an issue for you.
The Vatican has not yet commented on the new information about the J&J vaccine.
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That statement is consistent with the Archdioceses statement. They agree that material used in the early testing is sufficiently disconnected.
The new information is that the J&J vaccine uses aborted fetal cells in the production of the virus. What is injected into your body is the result of interaction with cells from a murdered baby. If you're morally OK with that, then it isn't an issue for you.
The Vatican has not yet commented on the new information about the J&J vaccine.
Although I was baptized into the Catholic church and attended a Catholic grade school and junior high, since high school I have considered myself an atheist, so the Catholic church’s position is not immediately relevant to me. Also, I’ve already had the first shot of the Pfizer vaccine (it was the only choice) so the ethics of getting the J&J vaccine is not something I need to worry about.
That out of the way, here’s my view of the ethical considerations:
If they needed a supply of cells from aborted fetuses to make the vaccine, I would not take it.
But the cell lines in this case are from “cell lines created from two abortions that occurred, one in the 1970s and one in the 1980s.” No woman that I’m aware of who chose to have an abortion did so with any thought as to supplying medical research with fetal tissue, nor did any doctor do it with that intention. So IMHO lines derived from such decisions made decades ago are not, therefore, morally compromised nor did their use form any incentive for further abortions. (If you can find me a woman who chose an abortion for such a reason I’d be interested in learning of it.)
A similar moral question arises in the use of results of NAZI medical experiments on concentration camp prisoners, many who were killed by the experiments. Are the results morally compromised and therefore should not be used? (One article on that subject discussing some of those experiments: https://allthatsinteresting.com/nazi-research (https://allthatsinteresting.com/nazi-research))
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Yes. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are considered acceptable because they don’t use cell lines in the manufacture of the vaccine.
The J&J vaccine does. That isn’t a Nazi type moral question, it’s closer to the use of slave labor in production. Or in this case, the use of dead bodies in production.
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The polio vaccine was developed using the HeLa cell line. These cells were unethically obtained from a poor black woman without her knowledge or consent. Anyone have a problem getting the polio vaccine?
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The polio vaccine was developed using the HeLa cell line. These cells were unethically obtained from a poor black woman without her knowledge or consent. Anyone have a problem getting the polio vaccine?
Did the doctor kill her to get them?
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Did the doctor kill her to get them?
No, but doctors don’t abort babies to get cells either. I agree with your point though, there are gradations of evil. There is a line where accepting some evil is okay, beyond which it is not okay.
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No, but doctors don’t abort babies to get cells either. I agree with your point though, there are gradations of evil. There is a line where accepting some evil is okay, beyond which it is not okay.
Much of the abortion industry is about federal and state funds, but the other and even more evil part is about fetal cells. Those fucking democrat nazis just love the power of death and cant imagine passing up a chance to get money while indulging their sickness.
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Much of the abortion industry is about federal and state funds, but the other and even more evil part is about fetal cells. Those fucking democrat nazis just love the power of death and cant imagine passing up a chance to get money while indulging their sickness.
One could argue that there is moral justification if this tissue use resulted in curing cancer or saving thousands of lives but it seems to me most of it is used for research of dubious quantifiable benefit. For example, 2nd trimester aborted fetuses in California were tested for levels of PBDE contamination, not to see if it was there at all, because we know it always is, but for the purpose of discovering whether some racial groups had higher levels than others. (Result: blacks had higher levels than other groups).
California has higher levels than other states. What is PBDE you ask? A flame retardant and for 30 years California had the strictest flammability laws in the world, therefore resulting in the highest prenatal exposures of this chemical.
So here’s what happened:
1. California’s insanely strict flammability standards resulted in high environmental contamination with PBDE
2. People finally noticed the stuff is terrible for developing babies, disrupting prenatal hormones and resulting in lowering of IQ by up to 8 points
3. So now California bans the stuff
4. And researchers are using aborted babies to conclude that blacks (associated with lower socioeconomic status) are affected most, which is a surprise to exactly nobody. We could have gone with that as a working assumption and spent that research money on oh I don’t know, maybe buying PBDE-free furniture for people in low income neighborhoods and hauling away their poisonous sofas.
So here we have California playing around with funding and aborted babies to ostensibly try to fix an environment disaster of their own making. The result of this study having zero direct benefit that I can see for anybody.
So I see your point. On the other hand, vaccines do save lives. My position is it’s an ethical dilemma if the use of such cells results in saving thousands or millions of lives. Happily for this case, I’m not in a dilemma because I don’t believe the covid vaccine does any such thing. It’s like TSA, feel good window dressing, because 99.8% of people that get covid survive anyway.