PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Rush on February 06, 2022, 11:13:02 AM
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Do y’all remember a while ago one of us posted the Awaken with JP video about guns? It was one of the first ones we posted and if I recall we all piled on about what an idiot he was. Terrible gun handling and figured he was a liberal. But over time his videos evolved until it became clear he isn’t a leftist at all. He has turned out to be one of the most brilliant mockers of the left on social media.
Now he admits he was wrong about guns. I’ve got a lot of respect for that.
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His original video pissed me off to no end, and I don't believe his apology. Sounds like Zumbo.
Tim
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His original video pissed me off to no end, and I don't believe his apology. Sounds like Zumbo.
Tim
What or who is a Zumbo? You don’t think he is sincere now?
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What or who is a Zumbo? You don’t think he is sincere now?
Jim Zumbo was a hunting and firearms writer, writing mostly for Outdoor Life. He also hosted a hunting-oriented TV show. Anyway, he went off one time (in 2007) about how evil AR15s were, and how nobody needed one, etc. He caused quite a stir and was fired from Outdoor Life and his TV show. Ironically, Ted Nugent visited him and supposedly got him straightened out, whereupon he apologized profusely for being ignorant and short-sighted.
I never believed Zumbo's apology, and I don't believe this guy's either.
Tim
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Jim Zumbo was a hunting and firearms writer, writing mostly for Outdoor Life. He also hosted a hunting-oriented TV show. Anyway, he went off one time (in 2007) about how evil AR15s were, and how nobody needed one, etc. He caused quite a stir and was fired from Outdoor Life and his TV show. Ironically, Ted Nugent visited him and supposedly got him straightened out, whereupon he apologized profusely for being ignorant and short-sighted.
I never believed Zumbo's apology, and I don't believe this guy's either.
Tim
Well I hate to stereotype people, and assume they have all the same positions as expected on a political side, but if his other politics are any indication, he is very much not a leftist or a Democrat or a liberal or authoritarian or other gun control types. On the contrary he seems like a constitutional conservative or libertarian or populist, and being pro second amendment fits with those types. So unless all his other positions are also fake, I’ve got to believe he’s sincere.
I’m guessing he wasn’t raised with guns, and may be from an urban area and may have come from urban liberal culture and evolved from there. He’s into yoga and alternative medicines and hippie yippie stuff like that. So maybe he just started out being anti-gun until he got into politics and decided he wasn’t going to follow the peacenik hippies into fascist authoritarianism like Neil Young apparently has. Did a little homework and learned about constitutional rights and got straightened out.
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well, there are some registered democrats that actually like guns... so....
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The AR-15 is a .22. It shoots a small game round. It's a varmint gun with the ability to accept standard capacity magazines of 2, 3, 5, 10, 20, 30, etc. It is no more lethal than any other firearm except it looks scary to the unknowing bedwetters and MEDIA who wants to only disarm the law abiding to further subjugate them. That's all.
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The AR-15 is a .22. It shoots a small game round. It's a varmint gun with the ability to accept standard capacity magazines of 2, 3, 5, 10, 20, 30, etc. It is no more lethal than any other firearm except it looks scary to the unknowing bedwetters and MEDIA who wants to only disarm the law abiding to further subjugate them. That's all.
The 5.56nato round is soooooo lethal that the military is switching to larger caliber rounds to get better performance.
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The AR-15 is a .22. It shoots a small game round. It's a varmint gun with the ability to accept standard capacity magazines of 2, 3, 5, 10, 20, 30, etc. It is no more lethal than any other firearm except it looks scary to the unknowing bedwetters and MEDIA who wants to only disarm the law abiding to further subjugate them. That's all.
It shoots a small game round - technically, 5.56mm or .273, but it isn’t the caliber that should concern anyone, it’s the velocity. The higher velocity means higher inertia, which is what does the damage. ~1000 fps (feet per second) is a normal range for .22LR, but 5.56 will reach up to 3500 fps. The round goes so fast it loses aerodynamics and tumbles, so in addition to a much larger shockwave when it hits, you don’t get a .273 hole, you get something larger. With a .22, you have to hit something important. With an AR, you have to hit near something important.
That is why it is also a good hunting rifle. At long ranges you can miss because of wind and sighting. Being able to stay on target and shoot again quickly is an advantage. And when you do hit, you’re unlikely to leave a wounded animal to run off.
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It shoots a small game round - technically, 5.56mm or .273, but it isn’t the caliber that should concern anyone, it’s the velocity. The higher velocity means higher inertia, which is what does the damage. ~1000 fps (feet per second) is a normal range for .22LR, but 5.56 will reach up to 3500 fps. The round goes so fast it loses aerodynamics and tumbles, so in addition to a much larger shockwave when it hits, you don’t get a .273 hole, you get something larger. With a .22, you have to hit something important. With an AR, you have to hit near something important.
That is why it is also a good hunting rifle. At long ranges you can miss because of wind and sighting. Being able to stay on target and shoot again quickly is an advantage. And when you do hit, you’re unlikely to leave a wounded animal to run off.
The round does not tumble before entering. That's called "keyholing" and it's BULLSHIT. You're wrong. There are many other better rounds, especially for hunting larger game. It's illegal to hunt DEER with a 5.56/.223 round, in many states, including my state.
My credentials? Former 01 FFL holder and gunsmith. Reloader for 35 years. Yes, I reload for the 5.56 round.
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The round does not tumble before entering. That's called "keyholing" and it's BULLSHIT. You're wrong. There are many other better rounds, especially for hunting larger game. It's illegal to hunt DEER with a 5.56/.223 round, in many states, including my state.
My credentials? Former 01 FFL holder and gunsmith. Reloader for 35 years. Yes, I reload for the 5.56 round.
faux conservatives and liberals LOVE to lie about the AR-15. I don't know what it is that makes them so obsessed with lying about the gun.
I guess it is just a combination of the brainwashing from the media and their lying ass teachers in school.
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It shoots a small game round - technically, 5.56mm or .273, but it isn’t the caliber that should concern anyone, it’s the velocity. The higher velocity means higher inertia, which is what does the damage. ~1000 fps (feet per second) is a normal range for .22LR, but 5.56 will reach up to 3500 fps. The round goes so fast it loses aerodynamics and tumbles, so in addition to a much larger shockwave when it hits, you don’t get a .273 hole, you get something larger. With a .22, you have to hit something important. With an AR, you have to hit near something important.
That is why it is also a good hunting rifle. At long ranges you can miss because of wind and sighting. Being able to stay on target and shoot again quickly is an advantage. And when you do hit, you’re unlikely to leave a wounded animal to run off.
Yes, higher velocity means more energy (all other things being equal)
Not many .223 rounds will have a muzzle velocity of 3500 fps (don't try to get that with a 77gr or 80gr or 90gr bullet)
Tumbing is caused by insufficient twist for the length of the bullet. It has absolutely nothing to do with "goes so fast"
Exercise for the student: why are the HPBT bullets like the Sierra matchking not recommended for hunting?
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Tumbing is caused by insufficient twist for the length of the bullet. It has absolutely nothing to do with "goes so fast"
Exercise for the student: why are the HPBT bullets like the Sierra matchking not recommended for hunting?
Insufficient twist, or also passing through the trans-sonic region, where the bullet goes from supersonic to sonic. This is a known problem for M14/M1A shooters who try to shoot long range with SMK 168s. They just can't push those bullets with enough beans to stay supersonic all the way to the target. I've never tried it, but I guess the thing to do is go to 175s (or larger).
SMKs are technically "hollow points", but just because the manufacturing process naturally leaves a little hole at the tip. They are not hunting-style hollow points that are designed to expand on impact with game.
Tim
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faux conservatives and liberals LOVE to lie about the AR-15. I don't know what it is that makes them so obsessed with lying about the gun.
I guess it is just a combination of the brainwashing from the media and their lying ass teachers in school.
They do not even flinch when told there’s no such thing as an “assault weapon” and not a single military would use an AR-15, so it cannot be a “weapon of war.” (The current popular term for something that looks scary to them.)
It is so ingrained that they don’t care that they are continuing to speed outright lies.
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Insufficient twist, or also passing through the trans-sonic region, where the bullet goes from supersonic to sonic. This is a known problem for M14/M1A shooters who try to shoot long range with SMK 168s. They just can't push those bullets with enough beans to stay supersonic all the way to the target. I've never tried it, but I guess the thing to do is go to 175s (or larger).
SMKs are technically "hollow points", but just because the manufacturing process naturally leaves a little hole at the tip. They are not hunting-style hollow points that are designed to expand on impact with game.
Tim
Exactly. At least two other people here understand ballistics. For general shooting I use bulk M193, 55gr. and M855 62 gr
because at least in the past I could get it inexpensively. For more serious stuff I use my reloads. In my Colt M4 both of them work well, but the longer 62 gr is slightly more accurate in the 1/7 barrel twist rate.
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I used to do my own reloading. It was good therapy but I was never a good enough shot to see any difference between my reloads and store-bought ammunition. And the delta in price wasn't enough to keep me doing it. I do see that for maximum precision and getting the last little bit out of bullet it's great. For me, no. Maybe someday I'll get back into long range precision shooting.
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I used to do my own reloading. It was good therapy but I was never a good enough shot to see any difference between my reloads and store-bought ammunition. And the delta in price wasn't enough to keep me doing it. I do see that for maximum precision and getting the last little bit out of bullet it's great. For me, no. Maybe someday I'll get back into long range precision shooting.
store-bought match ammo is definitely more expensive than reloads (once you get beyond the reloading equipment)
and some of us shoot "obsolete" calibers ... then reloading is our only option.
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Ever since shoulder surgery, I'm a lot more recoil sensitive. Especially with my 300 wsm. Reloading lets me work up lighter loads. And it gives me something to do if I get bored and have an hour to kill.
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Well I hate to stereotype people, and assume they have all the same positions as expected on a political side, but if his other politics are any indication, he is very much not a leftist or a Democrat or a liberal or authoritarian or other gun control types. On the contrary he seems like a constitutional conservative or libertarian or populist, and being pro second amendment fits with those types. So unless all his other positions are also fake, I’ve got to believe he’s sincere.
I’m guessing he wasn’t raised with guns, and may be from an urban area and may have come from urban liberal culture and evolved from there. He’s into yoga and alternative medicines and hippie yippie stuff like that. So maybe he just started out being anti-gun until he got into politics and decided he wasn’t going to follow the peacenik hippies into fascist authoritarianism like Neil Young apparently has. Did a little homework and learned about constitutional rights and got straightened out.
I watched the video, and I believe him. The reason I believe that he’s changed his beliefs is because he didn’t use the lame “reasons” for the second amendment, such as John F’ing Kerry from snooty Massachusetts walking into a gas station asking, on camera of course, “Is this where I kin get me a huntin’ license?”
He shows some fundamental knowledge of all the pertinent purposes for 2A, how his gun handling and character assassination was wrong and stupid, and he was pretty self-deprecating.
Lastly, I think the changes in this world and this country over the last two years have made him take stock of his perception of freedom and liberty.
Thanks for posting it.
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I watched the video, and I believe him. The reason I believe that he’s changed his beliefs is because he didn’t use the lame “reasons” for the second amendment, such as John F’ing Kerry from snooty Massachusetts walking into a gas station asking, on camera of course, “Is this where I kin get me a huntin’ license?”
He shows some fundamental knowledge of all the pertinent purposes for 2A, how his gun handling and character assassination was wrong and stupid, and he was pretty self-deprecating.
Lastly, I think the changes in this world and this country over the last two years have made him take stock of his perception of freedom and liberty.
Thanks for posting it.
He also mentioned that back then the girl was just his fiancé. Now she is his wife and he has a son. Now he has something to protect.
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Shooter has not yet been apprehended. I frequent this store.
https://www.columbian.com/news/2022/feb/07/police-respond-to-report-of-shooting-in-richland-fred-meyer/
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Tumbling is caused by insufficient twist for the length of the bullet. It has absolutely nothing to do with "goes so fast"
It’s about inertia. When it hits something, the end yaws over. That makes the round tumble into the target. Or is there another reason my range targets never had round holes like my pistol rounds do?
Btw, there is one drawback to high velocity rounds. That tumbling will tear what it hits, so you can lose meat from contamination, especially if you are shooting in the mid body.
BTW, not illegal to hunt with an AR in NC. 12 states do not permit hunting with an AR, another 10 have restrictions. The remaining 28 have no restrictions, meaning most states allow ARs for hunting.
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. . . it isn’t the caliber that should concern anyone, it’s the velocity.
p=mv, so caliber does count.
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It’s about inertia. When it hits something, the end yaws over. That makes the round tumble into the target. Or is there another reason my range targets never had round holes like my pistol rounds do?
If your bullets were tumbling before hitting the target, something was drastically wrong. Don't know what that might have been (other than twist, as mentioned) but if shooting paper, one should see nothing but nice round bullet holes.
Tim
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Shooter has not yet been apprehended. I frequent this store.
https://www.columbian.com/news/2022/feb/07/police-respond-to-report-of-shooting-in-richland-fred-meyer/
I’m sure he didn’t shoot anybody. He’s wearing a face masks so obviously he’s a covid compliant good citizen.
No, it was the gun. The gun walked into the store and shot someone. Be prepared to have your guns taken away so they too don’t walk into the store to shoot someone.
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It’s about inertia. When it hits something, the end yaws over. That makes the round tumble into the target. Or is there another reason my range targets never had round holes like my pistol rounds do?
Btw, there is one drawback to high velocity rounds. That tumbling will tear what it hits, so you can lose meat from contamination, especially if you are shooting in the mid body.
BTW, not illegal to hunt with an AR in NC. 12 states do not permit hunting with an AR, another 10 have restrictions. The remaining 28 have no restrictions, meaning most states allow ARs for hunting.
You got something seriously wrong with your rifle if you are getting rounds that are tumbling into the target without them hitting something first. Most high velocity rounds will go right through bones/flesh. Green tip 5.56 will tumble after it hits something because it's designed not to expand on contact, but it will go right through a lot of things without tumbling.
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Shooter has not yet been apprehended. I frequent this store.
https://www.columbian.com/news/2022/feb/07/police-respond-to-report-of-shooting-in-richland-fred-meyer/
Glad you’re okay.
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It’s about inertia. When it hits something, the end yaws over. That makes the round tumble into the target. Or is there another reason my range targets never had round holes like my pistol rounds do?
What bullet are you shooting and what twist on the rifle?
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BTW, not illegal to hunt with an AR in NC. 12 states do not permit hunting with an AR, another 10 have restrictions. The remaining 28 have no restrictions, meaning most states allow ARs for hunting.
Just out of curiosity, by AR, do you mean:
Automatic Rifle?
or any rifle made by American Rifle Company?
(Does this show my ignorance on the subject?)
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Just out of curiosity, by AR, do you mean:
Automatic Rifle?
or any rifle made by American Rifle Company?
(Does this show my ignorance on the subject?)
Yes, that show a particular level of knowledge
AR Armalite. was that, now the AR-15 is owned by Colt (if I understand correctly)
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Just out of curiosity, by AR, do you mean:
Automatic Rifle?
or any rifle made by American Rifle Company?
(Does this show my ignorance on the subject?)
Armalite Rifle model 15.
I have 2 AR7 rifles. They are take down rifles that the gun mechanisms store in the stock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-7)
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Armalite Rifle model 15.
Or some generic copy of the Armalite. It's a style of rifle, kind of how the 1911 is made by so many different companies.
BTW, we shot M-16s in the Navy, several times a year. Harder to find a public range nearby that lets you shoot an AR anymore.
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I have one of these.
AR-30. Chambered for a 7.62
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.guns.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2Farmalite_ar-50a11.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
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You got something seriously wrong with your rifle if you are getting rounds that are tumbling into the target without them hitting something first. Most high velocity rounds will go right through bones/flesh. Green tip 5.56 will tumble after it hits something because it's designed not to expand on contact, but it will go right through a lot of things without tumbling.
I didn't say they tumbled in the air, or at least I didn't intend to. When one of the low grain rounds hits something, the front slows, the back end keeps going and the round skews then tumbles.
Or did the Navy and my own eyes lie to me again?
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I didn't say they tumbled in the air, or at least I didn't intend to. When one of the low grain rounds hits something, the front slows, the back end keeps going and the round skews then tumbles.
Or did the Navy and my own eyes lie to me again?
Trying to undertand the context of what you are saying. I've seen plenty of green tip 5.56 in the Marines tumble. Usually a bad shot hit the berm on the range. Then you get the oblong hole in the target. But that's the only time, and most shots were at an angle to the berm. An outside force acted to make it tumble. The round itself didn't tumble in flight all on it's own, which it sounds like you are claiming. But even with green tips, not all shots will tumble.
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I didn't say they tumbled in the air, or at least I didn't intend to. When one of the low grain rounds hits something, the front slows, the back end keeps going and the round skews then tumbles.
Or did the Navy and my own eyes lie to me again?
I think you aren't giving all of the context.
And I don't believe "low grain rounds hits something, the front slows, the back end keeps going and the round skews then tumbles." is an accurate (no pun) description of what happens when a 52gr .223 round hits something.
Were you talking about tumbling when hitting paper? or hitting something more solid?
btw - the Sierra HPBT bullets are bad for hunting because they don't transfer as much energy to an animal as regular hunting bullets.
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Trying to undertand the context of what you are saying. I've seen plenty of green tip 5.56 in the Marines tumble. Usually a bad shot hit the berm on the range. Then you get the oblong hole in the target. But that's the only time, and most shots were at an angle to the berm. An outside force acted to make it tumble. The round itself didn't tumble in flight all on it's own, which it sounds like you are claiming. But even with green tips, not all shots will tumble.
If a projectile hits a berm, it becomes a ricochet. It could be going through a perfectly round hole backwards at that point.
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Or some generic copy of the Armalite. It's a style of rifle, kind of how the 1911 is made by so many different companies.
BTW, we shot M-16s in the Navy, several times a year. Harder to find a public range nearby that lets you shoot an AR anymore.
Didn’t they close the Wake County police range to the public? We used to be able to go there. Many years ago now.
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Didn’t they close the Wake County police range to the public? We used to be able to go there. Many years ago now.
It is closed at the moment for covid, but normally open. There's a club range over by the airport, otherways Lee or Harnett counties.
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Well apparently everyone here here knows more than my armorer did.
Here's a picture from the web - we got holes like this in our targets and they didn't come from ricochets. We shot 50 and 100 yards on 200+ yard ranges, so unless the bullet bounced off the berm and came back 100 yards, that's no good. Unreasonable to say they came off the ground either, we always had someone looking for the "dust shot" because that round probably went over the berm and kept going - need to retrain.
Potentially a military round with a higher powder to bullet weight ratio? Possibly the rounds we shot did have a higher muzzle velocity than what you load or shoot?
(http://www.pilotspin.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6197.0;attach=2508)
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We believe you, just not that it should be normal. Something isn't right there. What's your barrel lenght nd twist? What brand rifle? Where you shooting 5.56 out of a .223 barrel?
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Well apparently everyone here here knows more than my armorer did.
Here's a picture from the web - we got holes like this in our targets and they didn't come from ricochets. We shot 50 and 100 yards on 200+ yard ranges, so unless the bullet bounced off the berm and came back 100 yards, that's no good. Unreasonable to say they came off the ground either, we always had someone looking for the "dust shot" because that round probably went over the berm and kept going - need to retrain.
Potentially a military round with a higher powder to bullet weight ratio? Possibly the rounds we shot did have a higher muzzle velocity than what you load or shoot?
Shoot a 75gr bullet out of an M16 with a rifle twist of 1:14 and it *will* trumble.
perhaps you armorer didn't understand the relationship between barrel twist and bullet length needed to prevent tumbling.
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Shoot a 75gr bullet out of an M16 with a rifle twist of 1:14 and it *will* trumble.
perhaps you armorer didn't understand the relationship between barrel twist and bullet length needed to prevent tumbling.
We were shooting milspec m16s with milspec ammo. I don’t think the armorer had much influence on that.
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We were shooting milspec m16s with milspec ammo. I don’t think the armorer had much influence on that.
"milspec m16s" - well, that was my assumption.
But the M-16 barrel had different twists depending of year and model. Original was 1 in 14. It's my understanding the current models are 1:7.
What year? short-barrel M-16? 20" barrel M-16?
Which "milspec ammo"?
I don't think the original M-16 (1 in 14 twist) could handle even a 69gr bullet.... even a 52gr bullter
The military quickly realized that the 1:14 twist was crap.
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"milspec m16s" - well, that was my assumption.
But the M-16 barrel had different twists depending of year and model. Original was 1 in 14. It's my understanding the current models are 1:7.
What year? short-barrel M-16? 20" barrel M-16?
Which "milspec ammo"?
I don't think the original M-16 (1 in 14 twist) could handle even a 69gr bullet.... even a 52gr bullter
The military quickly realized that the 1:14 twist was crap.
I didn't order them, I don't know. But it was ~30 years ago, so let's assume it's an older one. Accuracy seemed pretty good.
What was crap? That the rounds would tumble when they hit something?
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What was crap? That the rounds would tumble when they hit something?
The 1:14 twist was wrong wrong wrong. Insufficient twist for accuracy.
and no no no no no, the rounds don't "tumble when they hit something" ... that's not how bullets work.
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and no no no no no, the rounds don't "tumble when they hit something" ... that's not how bullets work.
So what causes oblong holes?
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So what causes oblong holes?
the bullet tumbling while in flight. And what causes a bullet to tumble? insufficient barrel twist for the length of the bullet.
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the bullet tumbling while in flight. And what causes a bullet to tumble? insufficient barrel twist for the length of the bullet.
And/or when the bullet nears or reaches Insufficient velocity to spin enough to remain stabilized in flight. Also, a defective barrel or round that is mis-sized (too small) for the barrel being used. Try shooting a Russian 5.45 bullet through a 5.56 barrel.
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And/or when the bullet nears or reaches Insufficient velocity to spin enough to remain stabilized in flight.
yup. tho at the distance bflynn was referencing (200yds - iirc), that shouldn't be a factor.
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yup. tho at the distance bflynn was referencing (200yds - iirc), that shouldn't be a factor.
Agreed.