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Messages - Little Joe

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7621
Spin Zone / Re: The problem with liberals.
« on: March 18, 2016, 12:47:00 PM »
Quote from: asechrest on March 18, 2016, 11:51:23 AM
Do you suggest that babies, toddlers, and primary-school aged children have an ability to "make choices" that will lift their families out of poverty? Do you reject the idea that being brought up in poverty causes structural and biological deficiencies that may affect social mobility? And since studies have shown that those brought up with wealth have a far greater chance of maintaining wealth in their own adulthood (and vice versa), do we conclude that there is a causal link between the amount of money your parents have and how lazy you will be later in life?
No.  I don't reject those things at all.  Poverty is definitely an obstacle that needs to be overcome.  But overcoming obstacles takes effort.  That may require effort over generations so that each new generation has more opportunities than their previous generation.  Making excuses for failure makes failure easier.

I remember when I was a kid and my widowed mother with three boys would depend on our church to bring groceries.  I remember my mother working two or three jobs, usually coming home as we were waking up.  I remember buying a 50 cent bag of cheetos and a box of baggies and selling a dozen bags of cheetos at school for a dime each so I could buy lunch. 

So dont' tell me about poverty.  I lived it. I know about safety nets and what they are good for.

I remember pumping gas, waiting tables and making pizzas between classes so I could graduate from a good State school while paying in-state tuition.  Yes, it took me eight years to get my 4 year degree.  And yes, I know tuition is higher now than it was.  But I earned it and I am proud of it.  And I do know kids today that are working and going to school without running up tons of debt.

I know other kids that chose a different path.  They thought they were cool because they dropped out of school.  Some of them even got a job.  The lucky ones are still working that same job and complaining about how the rich keep getting richer and they are still poor.

Yeah, being born into poverty sucks.  Some people are happy to use that as an excuse.  It takes work to get out of poverty.  But if you don't have to put in the effort, you will never get out of it.

7622
Spin Zone / Re: The problem with liberals.
« on: March 18, 2016, 11:57:07 AM »
Quote from: asechrest on March 18, 2016, 11:51:23 AM
Do you suggest that babies, toddlers, and primary-school aged children have an ability to "make choices" that will lift their families out of poverty? Do you reject the idea that being brought up in poverty causes structural and biological deficiencies that may affect social mobility? And since studies have shown that those brought up with wealth have a far greater chance of maintaining wealth in their own adulthood (and vice versa), do we conclude that there is a causal link between the amount of money your parents have and how lazy you will be later in life?
Do you reject that government programs that pay single women to have more and more babies, and penalizes them if they actually do get a job, doesn't contribute to the "generational poverty" that is rampant?

Safety nets = good.
Government enabling and encouraging of poverty = bad.


7623
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 10:53:52 AM »
Quote from: JeffDG on March 18, 2016, 10:38:55 AM
If nobody was offering money, there'd be no reason to hold the hand out.

Without the briber, there's no bribe to take.
You are grabbing at straws Jeff. I am tempted to say you are blaming the victim.

7624
Spin Zone / Re: The problem with liberals.
« on: March 18, 2016, 10:36:31 AM »
Quote from: asechrest on March 18, 2016, 10:26:57 AM
Did I say rich people never go broke?
Well you did say "poverty begets poverty and rich begets rich" (or something like that).  That sort of suggests that rich people don't get poor.  But then again, I am the one that rants against people changing other people's words around.

7625
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 10:07:09 AM »
Quote from: LevelWing on March 18, 2016, 10:02:10 AM
The same could be said for putting someone like Trump into the White House as well. Electing him could set back conservatism for a long time.
Just to play the devil's advocate here, how could Trump set conservationism back if nobody thinks he is conservative?

7626
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 10:05:23 AM »
Quote from: nddons on March 18, 2016, 09:59:39 AM
But he played a part in that disease!  And they weren't all "business" necessities either.
Lots of businesses make decisions that are based strictly on tax consequences instead of business necessities.  You play the cards you are dealt.  If the dealer is crooked, hang the dealer.  If the player cheats, hang the cheater.

I'm not saying Trump is lilly white, but he played by the rules as they are defined.

7627
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 10:00:23 AM »
Quote from: LevelWing on March 18, 2016, 09:52:17 AM
Liking one candidate does not necessarily equate to hating another. Conservatives want a true conservative, which Trump is not.
The fact that Jeff likes Cruz isn't what causes me to think he hates Trump.  What causes me to think Jeff hates trump is all of all the things he has said about Trump, and the "Trumpkins".

I'd like to have a true conservative candidate too.  And there are millions of true conservatives.  But there are no true conservatives running that I think would make an effective leader.  If we put a true conservative in the whitehouse that turns out to be an incompetent president, THAT would spell the death of the conservative movement.

7628
Spin Zone / Re: The problem with liberals.
« on: March 18, 2016, 08:54:47 AM »
Quote from: asechrest on March 18, 2016, 07:59:36 AM
This does not accurately portray the difficulty of upward social and economic mobility. Poverty begets poverty (and riches beget riches) for a large percentage of the population. In fact, we've fallen significantly behind as the Land of Opportunity. And it's not just because all those poverty-stricken babies are making poor choices.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, because the rich keep doing the things that make them rich, and the poor keep doing the things that make them poor.

And government subsidies make it possible, and often preferable, for people to continue to do the things that make them poor and prevent them from doing the things to make them rich (or at least self sufficient).

I know a woman who's daughter is pregnant with her 4th child from a 4th father.  When asked how she is able to afford it, the answer was a predictable "government subsidies".  In fact, she is eligible for a larger apartment because of the extra kid.
This is what begets poverty.



7629
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 08:47:27 AM »
Quote from: nddons on March 18, 2016, 08:39:50 AM
I find it difficult for Trump to have rolled in the same shit as the politicians, and then claim to smell like a rose.

Is he more pure because he was doing the buying instead of the selling?
Yes.

He used the system that was in place.  That is no different than businesses that use legitimate tax law and then have the libs complain about "loopholes" and tax cheats. Were any of his contributions illegal?

Politicians that accept "donations" (bribes) and dispense favors in return are the disease that we need to exorcise.


7630
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 08:25:07 AM »
Quote from: JeffDG on March 18, 2016, 06:40:04 AM
Trump knows how corrupt the Establishment is because he did the corrupting.  Their only fear is that they'll be cut out as the middle-man.
Cause and effect?  Which is which?
Politicians have been corrupt since way before Trump learned to use the system that was in place.

7631
Spin Zone / Re: The problem with liberals.
« on: March 18, 2016, 08:22:09 AM »
Quote from: Steingar on March 18, 2016, 07:48:23 AM
Being born poor is not a life choice.
But remaining poor, largely is.

7632
Spin Zone / Re: Question for the Cruz supporters.
« on: March 18, 2016, 08:20:42 AM »
Quote from: nddons on March 18, 2016, 07:43:51 AM
It's pretty easy to find, but I'll give you a few off the top of my head:

Cruz clerked for Chief Justice William Rehnquist.  In legal circles, that's some rarified air right there.

Cruz has authored 70 USSC briefs, presented 43 oral arguments, including 9 before the USSC while Solicitor General of the state of Texas. He won 5 and lost 4 of those cases.

He authored the amicus brief in District of Columbia v Heller that was signed by 31 state Attorneys General. 

In the Senate, Cruz actually kept his promises to his constituents and pushed back against the "Surrender Caucus" led by McConnell, who promptly gave Obama everything they wanted. He called out McConnell for lying to him by hiding the reauthorization in another bill, and tried to hold other Senators to their conservative promises.

To date he has authored 25 bills, including prohibiting the use of drones to kill US citizens, a bill to permit states to require proof of citizenship for registering to vote, etc.

He was also in private law practice for a number of years.
That is all good stuff, and it would probably be good experience for some sort of support position, like cabinet member, adviser or even Supreme Court Justice.  But I don't seen any sort of evidence of leadership potential.  I feel if he gets to be President, it would be the ultimate evidence of the Peter Principle.

7633
Spin Zone / Re: Question for the Cruz supporters.
« on: March 18, 2016, 07:34:26 AM »
Thanks 'Gimp

From your link:
Quote
Over nine trips to the Supreme Court, Cruz clearly lost four cases and won two. The other three rulings were less clear-cut.

I too wanted to like him, and to find something that may remotely qualify him to be President, but so far I have come up empty.

7634
Spin Zone / Question for the Cruz supporters.
« on: March 18, 2016, 06:52:54 AM »
Tell me something that Cruz has accomplished that might make me respect him, or make me think that he can improve anything in any way.

Has he ever been in charge of anything that was a success?  Has he accomplished anything positive?

You guys speak of Trump's "angry white" supporters.  Who is any whiter or angrier than Cruz supporters?

Yeah, he talks a good game.  He had good grades in  college.  But what besides the scripted words that come out of his mouth make him any better than Obama?

I'm, willing to listen in case you can show me something I don't know about him.

7635
Spin Zone / Re: Trump vs. Clinton
« on: March 18, 2016, 06:38:42 AM »
Quote from: JeffDG on March 18, 2016, 06:33:41 AM
Trump is the establishment.  He's built and funded the establishment from both parties.


Now he's playing his supporters like a fiddle.
I guess it depends on how you define the word "the"!

According to my definition, "the" establishment is scared to death of Trump because he knows how corrupt they are, which is why he was able to use that to his advantage.  Is that a bad thing?  Maybe; maybe not.  I don't think so.  I think "the" establishment needs a little fear thrown their way.

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