PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Little Joe on May 01, 2017, 05:56:01 AM
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Ok, instead of telling me I am a naive idiot, tell me what you think is wrong with this plan and how you would tweak it.
This only indirectly affects the illegals that are already here, and the only "amnesty" is if they leave and come back legally.
First step, make immigration much much easier. If you apply, pass a background check for criminal activity and meet certain conditions, you can enter. Past illegal entry will not be held against them unless they had a criminal record while here.
Then:
1. You must exhibit minimal fluency in English, and you must demonstrate on an ongoing basis that your English is improving.
2. You must be able bodied and willing to work. It is not necessary to have "needed skills" because anyone that is able bodied can pick tomatoes and clean houses. But if they do have better skills, like carpentry or rocket science, so much the better.
3. You will be ineligible for government assistance for some time period (eg: 2 years).
4. You will have to pay an additional set of taxes (on top of all the taxes everyone else pays) until you are "Established" which I haven't defined yet, but it will take a couple of years. If illegals can send home half their illegal. "below minimum wage" salary back to Mexico, then they can pay half of that (or 25% total) to an immigration tax.
5. Employers will have to abide by all wage and hour laws required for citizens. Immigrants will have to compete for jobs on ability, not cheap labor rates.
6. When you register, (or with a short period of time) you must provide a contact address. And you must notify the government immediately if your contact address changes.
Hopefully, the cost of administering the agency that tracks immigrants will be offset by the savings in ICE.
Part of the reason I thought of this was that I have read several articles recently in local and national news that many business are having problems hiring labor. An article in today's paper said a lot of manufacturing companies and construction companies are missing deadlines because of insufficient labor while at the same time we are trying to run off a lot of laborers.
Ok, what don't you like about this?
Why?
And what do you suggest to improve the idea?
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The current laws with regards to immigration work just fine. The problem is they haven't been enforced.
Why keep reinventing the wheel?
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The current laws with regards to immigration work just fine.
Bull - Fucking - Shit!
The problem is they haven't been enforced.
Why keep reinventing the wheel?
Because the wheel is square and broken. The laws are not enforced because nobody wants to enforce them or follow them. That includes Dems and Reps. And the laws are fucked up.
Or do you just happen to like the way our government makes laws?
I guess you are happy with the status quo?
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Bull - Fucking - Shit!
So tell us what is wrong with the current laws on the books? Why wouldn't they work if enforced?
Because the wheel is square and broken. The laws are not enforced because nobody wants to enforce them or follow them. That includes Dems and Reps. And the laws are fucked up.
Or do you just happen to like the way our government makes laws?
Have you ever personally dealt with immigration?
And why is it no one wants to enforce the laws?
Please explain the laws pertaining to immigration, and exactly what makes them "fucked up" in your opinion.
I guess you are happy with the status quo?
Not at all. I want the laws ENFORCED and the borders PROTECTED.
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The current laws were written/ influenced by Ted Kennedy. A rewrite would be a good thing. That said, any law, not enforced is useless.
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The current laws were written/ influenced by Ted Kennedy. A rewrite would be a good thing.
Exactly what did Ted Kennedy "influence" that makes the current immigration laws a problem?
That said, any law, not enforced is useless.
Agreed. Our real problem is not the laws, but lack of enforcement.
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I'm very familiar with the immigration process as I have a family members that went through it. I've also lived outside the US and have participated in other countries immigration process as well.
For my family members we followed the laws in the US as written. Basically it went like this:
1) I made application to the US by filing out the form with my information and the information of the individuals I was applying for. I was granted an application with a distinct application ID.
2) I filled out another form that detailed my information, why I was applying for residency of the foreign nationals, detailed information on the individuals (address, names of parents, information on education, etc).
3) Another form I submitted had detailed financial information on me, to ascertain that I could financially support these immigrants. They also wanted to know if I had committed any crimes, been convicted, etc. Also I submitted names of my parents, siblings, place of birth, etc.
4) The immigrants submitted to a detailed physical exam including vaccination records to ascertain they were healthy and not bringing any disease into the country (exam done in home country at physician approved by US).
5) The immigrants also submitted from their home country a detailed background check by their local police as well as their version of the FBI. These reports were submitted to the US.
6) They underwent an interview at the US Embassy in their country to ascertain what was submitted was actually correct and there were no holes or concealment.
7) Once in the US, they were given biometrics and another interview. Green cards were issued. (from start until this point was 6 months)
8 ) This fall they will take their oaths and become citizens (after 5 years)
Above is just a brief synopsis of the process. Can someone explain to me what is so terribly wrong here?
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I'm very familiar with the immigration process as I have a family members that went through it. I've also lived outside the US and have participated in other countries immigration process as well.
For my family members we followed the laws in the US as written. Basically it went like this:
.
.
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That seems like a pretty rigorous process that is designed to keep many people out.
And we have quotas that further restrict people coming in. Why are they so low?
I knew people that went to college here and received their degree, had a job in management, but couldn't get their visa renewed and had to leave the country.
What would your family have had to do if you were not here to vouch for them?
The process doesn't always go as smoothly as it did for you.
The "legal" process needs to be fixed AND we need to crack down on the illegal entry problem.
The system is not "just fine".
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That seems like a pretty rigorous process that is designed to keep many people out.
What part? Let's see, the government wanted to see that I could financially support them, then they wanted to make sure they were healthy, they also wanted to see that they were not criminals or had a dubious background.
What part would you have the government do away with? And why?
And we have quotas that further restrict people coming in. Why are they so low?
Seriously? Watch this:
I knew people that went to college here and received their degree, had a job in management, but couldn't get their visa renewed and had to leave the country.
So tell us the rest of the story.
What would your family have had to do if you were not here to vouch for them?
Applied using the forms found online as well as instructions. Nothing is hidden.
As to if they would have been accepted? Can't say.
The process doesn't always go as smoothly as it did for you.
Now that's a bullshit statement. As in any process that involves millions, you will have a percentage that fuck up paperwork, lie on paperwork, not meet appointments, etc, etc.
For me, I did the process, I got in line, took a number and FOLLOWED THE LAW. What in the hell is the problem with that??
The "legal" process needs to be fixed AND we need to crack down on the illegal entry problem.
Why does it need to be fixed? You have yet to understand the process. Again, please tell us what is wrong with the "legal process"?
The system is not "just fine".
You have never used it nor experienced it, you are simply going on liberal hearsay and MSM fear mongering.
The liberals want open borders with minimal requirements. Our current laws (if enforced) use vetting to keep out undesirables and potential leeches on society.
Why not go back to enforcing the laws on the books and see what happens?
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This only indirectly affects the illegals that are already here, and the only "amnesty" is if they leave and come back legally.
While I agree with this, the immediate problem you run into is how to get the illegals that are currently in, out.
First step, make immigration much much easier. If you apply, pass a background check for criminal activity and meet certain conditions, you can enter. Past illegal entry will not be held against them unless they had a criminal record while here.
Past illegal immigration should absolutely be held against you and you should go to the back of the line. If it's not held against you, that isn't fair to those who are going through the correct process to get in.
2. You must be able bodied and willing to work. It is not necessary to have "needed skills" because anyone that is able bodied can pick tomatoes and clean houses. But if they do have better skills, like carpentry or rocket science, so much the better.
This is a slight deviation from immigration, but for those who live along the border, a better work visa program may be a better solution for the lower paying labor jobs. Often times people come across the border just to work for the day or the week and then return when done. A more robust work visa program would allow them to come in legally, earn wages, pay taxes and come and go as they see fit for the purpose of work or whatever their visa allows.
4. You will have to pay an additional set of taxes (on top of all the taxes everyone else pays) until you are "Established" which I haven't defined yet, but it will take a couple of years. If illegals can send home half their illegal. "below minimum wage" salary back to Mexico, then they can pay half of that (or 25% total) to an immigration tax.
I don't think anyone should be taxed twice. If they're already paying their taxes, how they choose to spend their income is their business, not mine. If they want to send it back to support their families, I see nothing wrong with that. If you're worried about the money not being spent on goods and services here in the U.S., I think this plan will backfire. No matter what, they're going to send that money back.
Ok, what don't you like about this?
Why?
And what do you suggest to improve the idea?
The problem with any form of immigration reform is that the Republicans always end up losing. The Democrats promise and agree to enhanced border security in exchange for amnesty and the Democrats always get the amnesty and there is never enhanced border security. This idea that we should just let the 11 million illegals stay because they're already here, as if we're just shrugging our shoulders and saying, "oh well" is moronic. There is a compromise that can be made and part of that likely involves a better work visa program.
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With luck I will stop posting here altogether, but I did want to share the one and only soapbox I did with my Genetics class. It was absolutely the only time, and the only time I have ever discussed my political views with one of my classes ever. But the subject matter was highly relevant to what we were discussing, and the subject has been a hot-button issue.
I was discussing population genetics, and the effect migration has on allele change under Hardy Weinberg equilibrium. We had just done a genetics problem showing an allele change to my own home town by a population of immigrants. The change in allele frequency was substantial, far greater than could be obtained by mutation, genetic drift, or selection.
My class has a number of foreign born students, and I asked if immigration to the US was facile or difficult. Those with the relevant experience said it was extremely difficult. I asked if they thought it was easier to immigrate illegally. Most thought not, due to the geographical and law enforcement barriers to entry.
I then asked what enabled a person to overcome such difficulties. Most of my students mentioned something about determination and ambition. I asked if those were good traits for Americans, and my students answered as a body yes. I then mentioned that many personality traits, such as perseverance and ambition, are genetic in origin. Those people are bringing in damn good alleles.
I then invoked the principle of selection, which biologists in the lab and breeders in the field use to isolate desirable alleles. You set of some sort of barrier to survival or fecundity, say by putting an antibiotic in bacterial medium. Only those bacteria resistant to the antibiotic can survive; this is the nature of drug selection. Immigration here has never been very easy, hence we've inadvertently and accidentally set up a selection for alleles promoting perseverance.
I then put in the one and only of my own personal views. I truly believe that what has made America the most powerful nation on Earth has been the election for these alleles. There are nations just as large, like Brazil, just as many natural resources that have never achieved what we have. I believe that it is because they never had the selection that we inadvertently set up here.
My one and only soapbox (beyond making the least bit of fun of the POTUS from time to time, but I make far more fun of myself). Like I said, most of it is based on very well understood science. Admittedly the last bit was my own thoughts. Those of you worried about immigration should worry about something else. So long as there are strong barriers against it immigration, whether legal or illegal, will bring us the sort of superlative alleles that will keep America and Americans great for generations to come.
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While I agree with this, the immediate problem you run into is how to get the illegals that are currently in, out.
Past illegal immigration should absolutely be held against you and you should go to the back of the line. If it's not held against you, that isn't fair to those who are going through the correct process to get in.
That thinking is part of the problem. If you allow them to re-enter without holding their previous illegal entry against them, many will get out on their own.
This is a slight deviation from immigration, but for those who live along the border, a better work visa program may be a better solution for the lower paying labor jobs. Often times people come across the border just to work for the day or the week and then return when done. A more robust work visa program would allow them to come in legally, earn wages, pay taxes and come and go as they see fit for the purpose of work or whatever their visa allows.
Ok, that could be part of solution. thanks.
I don't think anyone should be taxed twice. If they're already paying their taxes, how they choose to spend their income is their business, not mine. If they want to send it back to support their families, I see nothing wrong with that. If you're worried about the money not being spent on goods and services here in the U.S., I think this plan will backfire. No matter what, they're going to send that money back.
It wouldn't be taxing them twice. Think of it as more of an immigration fee.
The problem with any form of immigration reform is that the Republicans always end up losing. The Democrats promise and agree to enhanced border security in exchange for amnesty and the Democrats always get the amnesty and there is never enhanced border security. This idea that we should just let the 11 million illegals stay because they're already here, as if we're just shrugging our shoulders and saying, "oh well" is moronic. There is a compromise that can be made and part of that likely involves a better work visa program.
Agreed. But I'm not ready to give up.
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Those that want no limits, nor requirements for LEGAL immigration are essentially for OPEN BORDERS. This negates the United States being a country that is exceptional, and negates the opportunity for those that go through the legal process, and are vetted. With open borders we cease to be a country, but just become a territory with stuff in it. Infrastructure, jobs, places of learning, natural resources, religion, etc. will all degraded if we have open borders. We will become another Brazil, Mexico, or at the least like Europe, where hoards of immigrants are changing the countries for the worse, and depleting their resources, and overly taxing their inhabitants.
Immigration, by definition is a LEGAL process with vetting to keep the bad guys out. There is no such thing as illegal immigration, as that is an oxymoron, there is just illegal invasion. I, like most others, that believe in keeping our borders secure, are FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION with proper vetting, and a process for people to go through to become immigrants, and eventually citizens.
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Just so I am clear: are you under the impression that i am for no immigration quotas, no entrance requirements and no vetting?
Those that want no limits, nor requirements for LEGAL immigration are essentially for OPEN BORDERS. This negates the United States being a country that is exceptional, and negates the opportunity for those that go through the legal process, and are vetted. With open borders we cease to be a country, but just become a territory with stuff in it. Infrastructure, jobs, places of learning, natural resources, religion, etc. will all degraded if we have open borders. We will become another Brazil, Mexico, or at the least like Europe, where hoards of immigrants are changing the countries for the worse, and depleting their resources, and overly taxing their inhabitants.
Immigration, by definition is a LEGAL process with vetting to keep the bad guys out. There is no such thing as illegal immigration, as that is an oxymoron, there is just illegal invasion. I, like most others, that believe in keeping our borders secure, are FOR LEGAL IMMIGRATION with proper vetting, and a process for people to go through to become immigrants, and eventually citizens.
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Just so I am clear: are you under the impression that i am for no immigration quotas, no entrance requirements and no vetting?
No, not at all. I wasn't suggesting, nor inferring that. Correct me if I am wrong, you just want a streamlined, clear process, as do I.
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With luck I will stop posting here altogether, but I did want to share the one and only soapbox I did with my Genetics class. It was absolutely the only time, and the only time I have ever discussed my political views with one of my classes ever. But the subject matter was highly relevant to what we were discussing, and the subject has been a hot-button issue.
I was discussing population genetics, and the effect migration has on allele change under Hardy Weinberg equilibrium. We had just done a genetics problem showing an allele change to my own home town by a population of immigrants. The change in allele frequency was substantial, far greater than could be obtained by mutation, genetic drift, or selection.
My class has a number of foreign born students, and I asked if immigration to the US was facile or difficult. Those with the relevant experience said it was extremely difficult. I asked if they thought it was easier to immigrate illegally. Most thought not, due to the geographical and law enforcement barriers to entry.
I then asked what enabled a person to overcome such difficulties. Most of my students mentioned something about determination and ambition. I asked if those were good traits for Americans, and my students answered as a body yes. I then mentioned that many personality traits, such as perseverance and ambition, are genetic in origin. Those people are bringing in damn good alleles.
I then invoked the principle of selection, which biologists in the lab and breeders in the field use to isolate desirable alleles. You set of some sort of barrier to survival or fecundity, say by putting an antibiotic in bacterial medium. Only those bacteria resistant to the antibiotic can survive; this is the nature of drug selection. Immigration here has never been very easy, hence we've inadvertently and accidentally set up a selection for alleles promoting perseverance.
I then put in the one and only of my own personal views. I truly believe that what has made America the most powerful nation on Earth has been the election for these alleles. There are nations just as large, like Brazil, just as many natural resources that have never achieved what we have. I believe that it is because they never had the selection that we inadvertently set up here.
My one and only soapbox (beyond making the least bit of fun of the POTUS from time to time, but I make far more fun of myself). Like I said, most of it is based on very well understood science. Admittedly the last bit was my own thoughts. Those of you worried about immigration should worry about something else. So long as there are strong barriers against it immigration, whether legal or illegal, will bring us the sort of superlative alleles that will keep America and Americans great for generations to come.
Interesting take on a possible genetic explanation for American Exceptionalism, thanks for taking time to write it down Steingar.
'Gimp
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No, not at all. I wasn't suggesting, nor inferring that. Correct me if I am wrong, you just want a streamlined, clear process, as do I.
Actually as the law requires, it is a fairly clear process. The two problems we have are (a) the government enforcing the law and (b) people trying to circumvent the law.
Very simple, if someone is here illegally, they have broke the law. There are penalties already in place, enforce them.
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Interesting take on a possible genetic explanation for American Exceptionalism, thanks for taking time to write it down Steingar.
'Gimp
It's called a "moment of clarity"...........
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With luck I will stop posting here altogether, but I did want to share the one and only soapbox I did with my Genetics class. It was absolutely the only time, and the only time I have ever discussed my political views with one of my classes ever. But the subject matter was highly relevant to what we were discussing, and the subject has been a hot-button issue.
I was discussing population genetics, and the effect migration has on allele change under Hardy Weinberg equilibrium. We had just done a genetics problem showing an allele change to my own home town by a population of immigrants. The change in allele frequency was substantial, far greater than could be obtained by mutation, genetic drift, or selection.
My class has a number of foreign born students, and I asked if immigration to the US was facile or difficult. Those with the relevant experience said it was extremely difficult. I asked if they thought it was easier to immigrate illegally. Most thought not, due to the geographical and law enforcement barriers to entry.
I then asked what enabled a person to overcome such difficulties. Most of my students mentioned something about determination and ambition. I asked if those were good traits for Americans, and my students answered as a body yes. I then mentioned that many personality traits, such as perseverance and ambition, are genetic in origin. Those people are bringing in damn good alleles.
I then invoked the principle of selection, which biologists in the lab and breeders in the field use to isolate desirable alleles. You set of some sort of barrier to survival or fecundity, say by putting an antibiotic in bacterial medium. Only those bacteria resistant to the antibiotic can survive; this is the nature of drug selection. Immigration here has never been very easy, hence we've inadvertently and accidentally set up a selection for alleles promoting perseverance.
I then put in the one and only of my own personal views. I truly believe that what has made America the most powerful nation on Earth has been the election for these alleles. There are nations just as large, like Brazil, just as many natural resources that have never achieved what we have. I believe that it is because they never had the selection that we inadvertently set up here.
My one and only soapbox (beyond making the least bit of fun of the POTUS from time to time, but I make far more fun of myself). Like I said, most of it is based on very well understood science. Admittedly the last bit was my own thoughts. Those of you worried about immigration should worry about something else. So long as there are strong barriers against it immigration, whether legal or illegal, will bring us the sort of superlative alleles that will keep America and Americans great for generations to come.
I love immigration, once again you either ignore or miss the point completely. It is illegal immigration that is the problem. In your analysis did you consider extreme poverty, hunger and/or oppression might be stronger motivators to emigrate from an area than intelligence?
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I love immigration, once again you either ignore or miss the point completely. It is illegal immigration that is the problem. In your analysis did you consider extreme poverty, hunger and/or oppression might be stronger motivators to emigrate from an area than intelligence?
In order to make it seem like conservatives don't want ANY immigration, the liberal/progressives lump in illegal invasion with legal immigration. Thus they can make the conservatives look like they are racist, xenophobic knuckle draggers, and instead of having a reasonable discussion just try to make us look bad, and end the argument. It is a tried, and true primary tactic of the liberal/progressives, and, Michael as do others, use it all the time.
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In order to make it seem like conservatives don't want ANY immigration, the liberal/progressives lump in illegal invasion with legal immigration. Thus they can make the conservatives look like they are racist, xenophobic knuckle draggers, and instead of having a reasonable discussion just try to make us look bad, and end the argument. It is a tried, and true primary tactic of the liberal/progressives, and, Michael as do others, use it all the time.
You would think it would cause some self reflection on a progressive's own beliefs as to why it is necessary to misrepresent and dishonestly portray an opposing viewpoint in order to make an argument against it. Especially the intelligent ones.
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You would think it would cause some self reflection on a progressive's own beliefs as to why it is necessary to misrepresent and dishonestly portray an opposing viewpoint in order to make an argument against it. Especially the intelligent ones.
For the most part, liberalism is a system of oppression using sob stories to push their agenda.
The introduction of facts and the truth often waters down the position of progressives and therefore has become the enemy.
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For the most part, liberalism is a system of oppression using sob stories to push their agenda.
The introduction of facts and the truth often waters down the position of progressives and therefore has become the enemy.
Untrue sob stories, that why they need to made to provide examples of their sob stories, that's usually enough to make it fall apart.
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Actually as the law requires, it is a fairly clear process. The two problems we have are (a) the government enforcing the law and (b) people trying to circumvent the law.
Very simple, if someone is here illegally, they have broke the law. There are penalties already in place, enforce them.
Those two typically go hand in hand, it's just a matter to what degree. Under the previous administration, they had to try less hard to circumvent the law because they were essentially welcomed in with open arms. Now they'll have to start getting clever again knowing that we're ramping up our enforcement, especially with talk of the wall going up.
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That thinking is part of the problem. If you allow them to re-enter without holding their previous illegal entry against them, many will get out on their own.
I'm not sure that's true. Besides, you're rewarding bad behavior at that point and there's no longer an incentive for those who are trying to do it the right way to continue on knowing that they could just come here illegally, fill the paperwork out while here and then stay here. I think this would end up leading to de facto amnesty.
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For the most part, liberalism is a system of oppression using sob stories to push their agenda.
The introduction of facts and the truth often waters down the position of progressives and therefore has become the enemy.
That is a darn succinct definition if I ever saw one.
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I love immigration, once again you either ignore or miss the point completely. It is illegal immigration that is the problem. In your analysis did you consider extreme poverty, hunger and/or oppression might be stronger motivators to emigrate from an area than intelligence?
Keep in mind that where these impoverished people come from, the vast majority are staying in place despite the conditions. The reasons why can be multiple and varied, nonetheless I posit that what drove those who came here across forbidding landscape and scorching deserts to face an uncertain future and potential arrest is the ambition to do better, the drive to be better, which are inherently American sentiments.
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Keep in mind that where these impoverished people come from, the vast majority are staying in place despite the conditions. The reasons why can be multiple and varied, nonetheless I posit that what drove those who came here across forbidding landscape and scorching deserts to face an uncertain future and potential arrest is the ambition to do better, the drive to be better, which are inherently American sentiments.
But entering a country against it's laws is illegal, no matter how much you want to romance it.
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Keep in mind that where these impoverished people come from, the vast majority are staying in place despite the conditions. The reasons why can be multiple and varied, nonetheless I posit that what drove those who came here across forbidding landscape and scorching deserts to face an uncertain future and potential arrest is the ambition to do better, the drive to be better, which are inherently American sentiments.
I would say the legal process is much more daunting. That is why these criminals come the relatively, easy and fast way. The legal way requires thought, planning, investment, a non-criminal background, and the forethought to put in the time, and effort as the payback horizon is longer. In general, it requires a person of higher character, and ambition.
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I would say the legal process is much more daunting. That is why these criminals come the relatively, east and fast way. The legal way requires thought, planning, investment, a non-criminal background, and the forethought to put in the time, and effort as the payback horizon is longer. In general, it requires a person of higher character, and ambition.
The barrier one has to overcome in legal entry is cerebral, and involves things like patience and resource management (not to mention the ambition to emigrate in the first place, I will NOT in any way denigrate those who go through the legal conundrums to come to our shores). The barrier to many who come here illegally are physical, overcoming physical obstacles and conditions. I'm not saying we should have open borders. I like the prohibitions we have in place, like I said I think we've set up selection for something that works very well here. If someone's only crime is entering illegally, they've been able to stay out of trouble and are productive residents says me they're people we want, and we should find a way to keep them.
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If someone's only crime is entering illegally, they've been able to stay out of trouble and are productive residents says me they're people we want, and we should find a way to keep them.
That is contrary to our laws as written. We are simply rewarding criminal activity.
Where does it stop?
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If someone's only crime is entering illegally, they've been able to stay out of trouble and are productive residents says me they're people we want, and we should find a way to keep them.
So the ends justify the illegal means? Not buying it. The problem is there is no way to separate the ones that will stay out of trouble, and become productive without first vetting them. That means going through the legal process PRIOR to entry, not after when and if they commit a crime, or just leach off the system.
Do you try to prevent a parasitic, or destructive organism from entering your system, or are you careless, and just rely on eradicating them if you see the symptoms?
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With luck I will stop posting here altogether, but I did want to share the one and only soapbox I did with my Genetics class. It was absolutely the only time, and the only time I have ever discussed my political views with one of my classes ever. But the subject matter was highly relevant to what we were discussing, and the subject has been a hot-button issue.
I was discussing population genetics, and the effect migration has on allele change under Hardy Weinberg equilibrium. We had just done a genetics problem showing an allele change to my own home town by a population of immigrants. The change in allele frequency was substantial, far greater than could be obtained by mutation, genetic drift, or selection.
My class has a number of foreign born students, and I asked if immigration to the US was facile or difficult. Those with the relevant experience said it was extremely difficult. I asked if they thought it was easier to immigrate illegally. Most thought not, due to the geographical and law enforcement barriers to entry.
I then asked what enabled a person to overcome such difficulties. Most of my students mentioned something about determination and ambition. I asked if those were good traits for Americans, and my students answered as a body yes. I then mentioned that many personality traits, such as perseverance and ambition, are genetic in origin. Those people are bringing in damn good alleles.
I then invoked the principle of selection, which biologists in the lab and breeders in the field use to isolate desirable alleles. You set of some sort of barrier to survival or fecundity, say by putting an antibiotic in bacterial medium. Only those bacteria resistant to the antibiotic can survive; this is the nature of drug selection. Immigration here has never been very easy, hence we've inadvertently and accidentally set up a selection for alleles promoting perseverance.
I then put in the one and only of my own personal views. I truly believe that what has made America the most powerful nation on Earth has been the election for these alleles. There are nations just as large, like Brazil, just as many natural resources that have never achieved what we have. I believe that it is because they never had the selection that we inadvertently set up here.
My one and only soapbox (beyond making the least bit of fun of the POTUS from time to time, but I make far more fun of myself). Like I said, most of it is based on very well understood science. Admittedly the last bit was my own thoughts. Those of you worried about immigration should worry about something else. So long as there are strong barriers against it immigration, whether legal or illegal, will bring us the sort of superlative alleles that will keep America and Americans great for generations to come.
I think you're on to something. Some of the same characteristics that drove the original Pilgrims to cross the Atlantic are in those who attempt to get here illegally, and those characteristics make American people strong and contribute to our greatness as a nation. Plausible. And you are suggesting maybe those alleles may be a good addition to keep our population strong. Not saying I agree or disagree but worth pursuing.
I also agree though that does not justify excusing breaking the law, forgiving getting here illegally.
What might improve the genes of Americans over time might not necessarily outweigh the damage done by forgiving illegal entry. So I will not take a stand on what we "should" do about it, not at this time anyway. I have lots of thoughts but just came home from a three day vacation to a completely flooded house. Broken water pipe.
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The question is how serious do we think their crime (entering illegally) really is? Is it at the level of a misdemeanor? After all, who here hasn't sped on the highway, driven under a bit to much influence, inflated a loss or understated an earning on their taxes, or broken any one of the thousands of laws we have in the US? Or is it felonious, like murder or armed robbery?
Like I said, I honestly think that if they're here, productive and staying out of trouble we should find a way to keep them. That might involve some steep fines, or some community service, or some other punishment that lets them remain productive.
You can scream about what's fair and what isn't until you're blue in the face. What is far more important is what works in practice, not what your ideology tells you. These folks can make a serious addition to our nation, bringing in ambition and values, not to mention some really good alleles.
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The question is how serious do we think their crime (entering illegally) really is? Is it at the level of a misdemeanor? After all, who here hasn't sped on the highway, driven under a bit to much influence, inflated a loss or understated an earning on their taxes, or broken any one of the thousands of laws we have in the US? Or is it felonious, like murder or armed robbery?
Like I said, I honestly think that if they're here, productive and staying out of trouble we should find a way to keep them. That might involve some steep fines, or some community service, or some other punishment that lets them remain productive.
You can scream about what's fair and what isn't until you're blue in the face. What is far more important is what works in practice, not what your ideology tells you. These folks can make a serious addition to our nation, bringing in ambition and values, not to mention some really good alleles.
So if a guy robs a convenience store, is caught later and confesses he was only robbing it because he was broke and his family was hungry, should we just free him as well? I mean after all, it was his first offense and he was doing it for a noble cause, right?
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I'm very familiar with the immigration process as I have a family members that went through it. I've also lived outside the US and have participated in other countries immigration process as well.
For my family members we followed the laws in the US as written.
Process elided for brevity.
Above is just a brief synopsis of the process. Can someone explain to me what is so terribly wrong here?
Seems straightforward. I'm not familiar with immigration law, but my limited understanding is that family-based immigration rules differ enough from the employment immigration sought by illegals that your experience may not be entirely relevant.(1)
There is a per-country limit on immigration that is the same for every country, regardless of the size of each country. (1)(2)
Of course something like 1.4 million Mexicans were waiting to immigrate legally, yet those quotas only allowed something like 65,600 were allowed in during 2010. (3)
I would hazard a guess that the average Mexican who crosses the border illegally probably considers the crime the same way a lead-foot speeder thinks of temporarily exceeding the speed limit out in the middle of nowhere - nobody hurt, a means to an end.
(1) https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works (https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works)
(2) https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/country-limit (https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/country-limit)
(3) http://blog.al.com/breaking/2011/07/14_million_mexicans_waiting_to.html (http://blog.al.com/breaking/2011/07/14_million_mexicans_waiting_to.html)
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So if a guy robs a convenience store, is caught later and confesses he was only robbing it because he was broke and his family was hungry, should we just free him as well? I mean after all, it was his first offense and he was doing it for a noble cause, right?
A robbery creates a victim.
Who is the victim in the case of illegal immigration?
The libertarian philosophy has (or should have) a dim view of victimless crimes. Conservatives have long lists of victimless crimes they want enforced (or so it sometimes seems to me - trying to out-do liberals in criminalizing things, just from a different angle?)
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A robbery creates a victim.
Who is the victim in the case of illegal immigration?
The citizens of the United States, the taxpayers of the US.
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Process elided for brevity.
Seems straightforward. I'm not familiar with immigration law, but my limited understanding is that family-based immigration rules differ enough from the employment immigration sought by illegals that your experience may not be entirely relevant.(1)
There is a per-country limit on immigration that is the same for every country, regardless of the size of each country. (1)(2)
Of course something like 1.4 million Mexicans were waiting to immigrate legally, yet those quotas only allowed something like 65,600 were allowed in during 2010. (3)
I would hazard a guess that the average Mexican who crosses the border illegally probably considers the crime the same way a lead-foot speeder thinks of temporarily exceeding the speed limit out in the middle of nowhere - nobody hurt, a means to an end.
(1) https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works (https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works)
(2) https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/country-limit (https://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/country-limit)
(3) http://blog.al.com/breaking/2011/07/14_million_mexicans_waiting_to.html (http://blog.al.com/breaking/2011/07/14_million_mexicans_waiting_to.html)
When I had my business I also dealt with immigration in obtaining H1b visas. Again, follow the law and follow the rules and it's no big deal.
The laws we have actually work. The problem we have is previous administrations refusing to follow the laws, foreigners entering our country illegally and wanting the same treatment (or more) of a citizen and liberal progressives attempting to undermine our entire immigration process.
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The problem we have is previous administrations refusing to follow the laws, foreigners entering our country illegally and wanting the same treatment (or more) of a citizen and liberal progressives attempting to undermine our entire immigration process.
Democrats don't care about anything other than making more Democrats and being the "champions" for the immigrants is the way to do it. By resettling them all over the U.S. under the Obama administration it made it more difficult to remove them because they were harder to find. The hope was that there'd be some sort of amnesty deal and a pathway to citizenship which would've yielded a significant number more of Democrat voters. The Democrats are playing the long game.
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Democrats don't care about anything other than making more Democrats and being the "champions" for the immigrants is the way to do it. By resettling them all over the U.S. under the Obama administration it made it more difficult to remove them because they were harder to find. The hope was that there'd be some sort of amnesty deal and a pathway to citizenship which would've yielded a significant number more of Democrat voters. The Democrats are playing the long game.
Exactly true. That is why they want Open Borders, and allowed illegal aliens to flood over the border the last eight years under Obama. Create more Democrats ILLEGALLY. That should tell you all you need to know about the Democrats and what they think of the United States.
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The citizens of the United States, the taxpayers of the US.
That is correct. For example, illegal alien woman goes to ER in America and gets free OB care to deliver her baby. Or any illegal going to any ER for any reason gets free care, and all of the rest of us pay for it in higher medical costs.
There are also benefits from having illegals. You can get a maid to clean your house for $60 when the local blond American won't do it for less than $200.
The benefits are part of what drives keeping the effort to stop them only lukewarm at best. But IMO the biggest problem is Democrats knowing they will eventually be Democrat voting citizens if not themselves, their anchor babies will.
There is a mix of good and bad. In the long, long run, I mean evolutionary timescales, it will be good. Mixing different genes into a species gene pool tends to be beneficial. But in the short run, we have a country founded on certain laws. I don't care what we're like 10,000 years from now. I care what this country is like pretty much only in my lifetime and that of my children's children. And as far as I'm concerned illegal entry has a net NEGATIVE.
It may be viewed as only a misdemeanor by those entering illegally but crossing borders illegally has always been viewed as the gravest of deeds by nearly all human groups. We are a territorial species. It's our evolutionary instinct to kill on sight unwelcome strangers. Man must go through formal procedures to establish trading or marrying rights into neighboring tribes. They are breaking natural law as well as written law.
The only reason they view it as only a minor violation is because it has not been punished or enforced. They know deep down the seriousness of the crime, but between the stick of bad conditions at home and the carrot of possible better future in America, with the low risk of consequences, they go for it. I don't judge that; if I were them, I might do the same. I've never walked in their shoes in their pathetic homeland. But I'm not them, I'm a tax paying citizen of the U.S. so it's my right, and duty, to protect my own "tribe" if you will.
I don't have time right now to fully respond to OP's original question. My entire house is flooded, I need to go meet the insurance adjuster. But I will say this, I believe immigration is a GOOD thing, but must be legal and controlled. No one should be allowed to enter who is criminal, or who cannot pull their own weight in the economy. All illegals raising children here are a burden on public schools and other "free" entitlements. I am not yet convinced they contribute equal or more to the economy than what they take. As a general rule, the worse our economy is, and the more socialist it becomes, the more of a burden an illegal population is. The more free market and strong we can bring back the economy, the better chances immigrants have of getting real jobs and contributing in a positive way. I want to see our economy recover first, by removing government regulations and obstacles, such as minimum wage laws, and a return of more jobs than we have workers, then we can welcome LEGAL immigrants. But to continue to allow illegal crossings is not a sustainable policy, and will continue to erode our culture.
Because I see that as one of the biggest problems with entry into the U.S. today: failure to assimilate into our culture. Without loyalty to the idea that founded this nation, we are not gaining U.S. citizens, we are being invaded.
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I've lived and traveled the world for my adult life which means I've experienced immigration procedures of multiple countries.
Trust me, most countries do not view illegal entry as a "misdemeanor".
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Keep in mind that where these impoverished people come from, the vast majority are staying in place despite the conditions. The reasons why can be multiple and varied, nonetheless I posit that what drove those who came here across forbidding landscape and scorching deserts to face an uncertain future and potential arrest is the ambition to do better, the drive to be better, which are inherently American sentiments.
And after making the arduous trek, the first thing they want to do is go on the dole and expect the culture to change to their way of life.
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I've lived and traveled the world for my adult life which means I've experienced immigration procedures of multiple countries.
Trust me, most countries do not view illegal entry as a "misdemeanor".
In other countries, including Mexico, you will be treated harshly, and put in a very, very bad jail cell for an unknown amount of time until someone can pay whatever bribe they want.
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I guess entering the USA illegally is on the same level, as far as Steingar is concerned as a burglar stealing your wife's jewelry.
You should just stand by and let them steal from you because that's the liberal thing to do, you know.
Funny how liberals want to persecute conservatives over the silliest and downright most ignorant things, but they are not so much concerned with inconvenient laws when stealing votes is concerned.
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And after making the arduous trek, the first thing they want to do is go on the dole and expect the culture to change to their way of life.
What I've been told by people who've studied this (and have no source to back myself up) is that first generation immigrants do cost our society (social services and whatnot), but that it is well made up for by their second and third generation. The idea is these folks aren't generational welfare recipients. To be honest, I question whether any of them are long-term welfare recipients. Problem is the issue is so politicized that I don't trust very many sources to give me unfiltered information.
I guess entering the USA illegally is on the same level, as far as Steingar is concerned as a burglar stealing your wife's jewelry.
You should just stand by and let them steal from you because that's the liberal thing to do, you know.
Funny how liberals want to persecute conservatives over the silliest and downright most ignorant things, but they are not so much concerned with inconvenient laws when stealing votes is concerned.
First, I would happily stand band let anyone steal anything from me. I consider it folly to risk my life to protect insured property. My insurer would much rather I keep paying my premiums rather than die protecting my property.
Second, I didn't say I thought entering the US was on a par with stealing. I asked. I honestly don't know, though I feel it is in the balance of things a minor offense. A border is nothing more than a line drawn in the dirt. It corresponds to no natural law I can identify. Those who enter illegally victimize no one.
That is my own take on it. Yours might be otherwise, and that's fine. My point was not to make these folks instant citizens, that isn't right and even I agree. But I think we could figure out some penalty that they had to pay in order to rectify their transgression. There are all sorts of crimes where the perpetrator pays a fine in lieu of some other punishment. Most motor vehicle violations are handled this way, for example. The punishment has to fit the crime, or course. That's why I actually ask how bad a crime is it? I think not so much, you think its tantamount to murder. I'd like to think that we as Americans could come to some sort of compromise, a collective view that could be put into some sort of law making a path to citizenship for these folks.
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The punishment has to fit the crime, or course. That's why I actually ask how bad a crime is it? I think not so much, you think its tantamount to murder. I'd like to think that we as Americans could come to some sort of compromise, a collective view that could be put into some sort of law making a path to citizenship for these folks.
We already have laws in place that provide a legal immigration process, and path to citizenship.
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We already have laws in place that provide a legal immigration process, and path to citizenship.
Yep, we always have. Those who have committed crimes such as illegal entry should not be rewarded with citizenship, ever.
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We already have laws in place that provide a legal immigration process, and path to citizenship.
And I propose new laws, so someone who entered illegally but demonstrated good citizenship otherwise can remain.
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And I propose new laws, so someone who entered illegally but demonstrated good citizenship otherwise can remain.
We did that before under Reagan. It was called amnesty, and the Democrats in return promised to tighten up the border, and it never happened. No, I do not want to provide further incentive to break the law. The illegals can go home, and get in line with everyone else.
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And I propose new laws, so someone who entered illegally but demonstrated good citizenship otherwise can remain.
And after that, we can propose new laws that says if one commits a crime, but demonstrates good citizenship, no charges will be brought against the defender.
Sorry, rewarding criminal behavior is foolish.
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And I propose new laws, so someone who entered illegally but demonstrated good citizenship otherwise can remain.
So someone who robbed 7/11s as a 20 year old but has since been a model citizen gets no penalty?
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So someone who robbed 7/11s as a 20 year old but has since been a model citizen gets no penalty?
My first response was going to involve the statute of limitations. But I quickly realized those limitations would not apply as long as the person is still here illegally.
So in order for the past illegal entry to not be counted against them, they would have to leave the country for a period in excess of the Federal statutes, which in most cases is 5 years. That means that in my original post, those that are here illegally would have to leave the country, and not return or apply for legal immigration for at least 5 years.
I stand by the rest of my post, but the point I was trying to make was that while we close the borders to illegal entry, we increase the number of people allowed to legally enter, we reduce the time it takes AND we step up the monitoring efforts to keep people from disappearing and overstaying their visas.
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A robbery creates a victim.
Who is the victim in the case of illegal immigration?
The citizens of the United States, the taxpayers of the US.
You're confusing a law about the crossing of a political border with another completely different set of laws and regulations about taxes and government benefits.
With regard to the issue of government taxes and benefits - aren't legal immigrants also victimizing citizens and taxpayers of the United States? Other than the paperwork trail there seems no distinguishing difference between legal and illegal immigrants.
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A robbery creates a victim.
Who is the victim in the case of illegal immigration?
You're confusing a law about the crossing of a political border with another completely different set of laws and regulations about taxes and government benefits.
With regard to the issue of government taxes and benefits - aren't legal immigrants also victimizing citizens and taxpayers of the United States? Other than the paperwork trail there seems no distinguishing difference between legal and illegal immigrants.
The Logajan Twist reemerges.
Now try to make a coherent argument.
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The Logajan Twist reemerges.
Now try to make a coherent argument.
I twisted nothing - you introduced the irrelevant and vaguely defined victim(s).
If you cannot tell me why an illegal immigrant automatically creates victims while a legal immigrant automatically does not, then you are the one who is failing to make a coherent argument.
In the anti-illegal immigrant view, illegal immigrants somehow have the ability to not pay taxes and/or gain benefits from government that are somehow not possible to legal immigrants. Excuse me if I find that hard to swallow.
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I twisted nothing - you introduced the irrelevant and vaguely defined victim(s).
If you cannot tell me why an illegal immigrant automatically creates victims while a legal immigrant automatically does not, then you are the one who is failing to make a coherent argument.
In the anti-illegal immigrant view, illegal immigrants somehow have the ability to not pay taxes and/or gain benefits from government that are somehow not possible to legal immigrants. Excuse me if I find that hard to swallow.
Your reading comprehension sucks. Go back and read each post in this thread.....carefully.
And you are still twisting things in order to make some inane argument.
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A robbery creates a victim.
Who is the victim in the case of illegal immigration?
The victims are those of us who paid here to come legally, and also those of us that have to pay for a support system for criminals (illegal aliens). Our costs for health care, education, welfare, etc all go up when illegals use them.
With regard to the issue of government taxes and benefits - aren't legal immigrants also victimizing citizens and taxpayers of the United States? Other than the paperwork trail there seems no distinguishing difference between legal and illegal immigrants.
Legal immigrants are documented, can be tracked, and even can have their benefits reduced or removed. As legal immigrants, or citizens, they are entitled by law for those benefits.
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With regard to the issue of government taxes and benefits - aren't legal immigrants also victimizing citizens and taxpayers of the United States? Other than the paperwork trail there seems no distinguishing difference between legal and illegal immigrants.
When the population of a town increases, the services that town needs to provide also increases. That may be an increase in the police force, the fire department, the trash collection, water services, etc. If you've come to the country legally then you're paying taxes and contributing to those services. If you're here illegally then you're often times paid under the table in cash and are not paying any taxes yet still receiving the same services as those who are here and paying for them legally. Illegals will still go to an emergency room if they need immediate care and if they can't pay for it then either the hospital writes it off as a loss or the taxpayer picks up the bill. In either case, someone is losing money.
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So someone who robbed 7/11s as a 20 year old but has since been a model citizen gets no penalty?
Hows this. Someone applies to you for a job. Yeah, they robbed 7/11's as teenagers. They're now 30, have a completely clean record, have been working steadily and are involved in their community. What do you do?
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Hows this. Someone applies to you for a job. Yeah, they robbed 7/11's as teenagers. They're now 30, have a completely clean record, have been working steadily and are involved in their community. What do you do?
If he indeed robbed 7-11's as a teenager, we are concluding he was arrested, tried and convicted. He paid his debt to society and has cleaned up.
The illegal alien has not been arrested or tried for his crimes.
You keep advocating amnesty for the illegal alien, even when he has clearly broken laws. In your utopia shouldn't the 7-11 bandit get the same amnesty?
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If he indeed robbed 7-11's as a teenager, we are concluding he was arrested, tried and convicted. He paid his debt to society and has cleaned up.
The illegal alien has not been arrested or tried for his crimes.
You keep advocating amnesty for the illegal alien, even when he has clearly broken laws. In your utopia shouldn't the 7-11 bandit get the same amnesty?
Here's the thing. The thief can turn himself in, get a fair trail, do his time and get out. The illegal alien gets naught but deported. What does an illegal alien have to gain by turning themselves in? Nothing!
Moreover, once our wayward teenager stops robbing, he can go back to being a regular citizen. However, the illegal alien is illegal the whole time. There is no way for him or her to rectify the situation other than return to the situation he fled in the first place. Like I said, if they're here and doing well it may be they have the right stuff. Like the 7/11 robber there should be some sort of sanction or penalty, and it should hurt. You are correct, they broke the law. But it should be a sanction they can live with.
But you didn't answer the question. If someone like our wayward robber comes to you, do you hire him? He was guilty of some fairly serious offenses! Now we have people who intentionally broke the law some time ago. Yes they're illegal while they stay here, but there is less intent in that than robbing 7/11's. You have a very similar situation. The only real difference is the one was born on a different patch of dirt.
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Here's the thing. The thief can turn himself in, get a fair trail, do his time and get out. The illegal alien gets naught but deported. What does an illegal alien have to gain by turning themselves in? Nothing!
Moreover, once our wayward teenager stops robbing, he can go back to being a regular citizen. However, the illegal alien is illegal the whole time. There is no way for him or her to rectify the situation other than return to the situation he fled in the first place. Like I said, if they're here and doing well it may be they have the right stuff. Like the 7/11 robber there should be some sort of sanction or penalty, and it should hurt. You are correct, they broke the law. But it should be a sanction they can live with.
But you didn't answer the question. If someone like our wayward robber comes to you, do you hire him? He was guilty of some fairly serious offenses! Now we have people who intentionally broke the law some time ago. Yes they're illegal while they stay here, but there is less intent in that than robbing 7/11's. You have a very similar situation. The only real difference is the one was born on a different patch of dirt.
Personally in hiring, if I had multiple applicants I would screen them and take the one without a record. That's reality.
Once your illegal friends cross the border with the intent of breaking the laws, they are indeed criminals, no way around that. Rewarding criminal behavior doesn't solve anything, just opens more doors for more criminal behavior.
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Hows this. Someone applies to you for a job. Yeah, they robbed 7/11's as teenagers. They're now 30, have a completely clean record, have been working steadily and are involved in their community. What do you do?
Depends on the job, but if I need to depend on them I don't hire them.
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But there is also a statute of limitations. For bank robbery it's five years. So after five years the offender is free and clear. Would it be fair to do the same for illegal immigration which is arguably a lesser offense than bank robbery? Maybe keep his/her nose clean for two years and all is forgiven?
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Ok, instead of telling me I am a naive idiot, tell me what you think is wrong with this plan and how you would tweak it.
You are certainly not a naive idiot! Some good stuff there.
This only indirectly affects the illegals that are already here, and the only "amnesty" is if they leave and come back legally.
I am in favor of "amnesty" for those already here. Although I have to hold my nose to say so, they do deserve a chance at citizenship. It will be very difficult, expensive and fruitless to try to remove them. Spending additional tax dollars on the huge effort to identify them , round them up and deport them just doesn't make sense to me. Besides that, we need more younger workers on the tax roles. Our demographic is getting older, some new tax paying younger people will help that. That being said, there are a number of hoops they must jump through to stay.
First step, make immigration much much easier. If you apply, pass a background check for criminal activity and meet certain conditions, you can enter. Past illegal entry will not be held against them unless they had a criminal record while here.
OK, fair enough for new immigrants .
1. You must exhibit minimal fluency in English, and you must demonstrate on an ongoing basis that your English is improving.
Good, makes sense.
2. You must be able bodied and willing to work. It is not necessary to have "needed skills" because anyone that is able bodied can pick tomatoes and clean houses. But if they do have better skills, like carpentry or rocket science, so much the better.
OK, how would you apply that to children or the aged? A family might have a wide variety of "skills"
3. You will be ineligible for government assistance for some time period (eg: 2 years).
Would this also apply to children and their use of public schools?
4. You will have to pay an additional set of taxes (on top of all the taxes everyone else pays) until you are "Established" which I haven't defined yet, but it will take a couple of years. If illegals can send home half their illegal. "below minimum wage" salary back to Mexico, then they can pay half of that (or 25% total) to an immigration tax.
Someone else mentioned double taxation, don't see additional taxes as an option. Possibly a one-time fee?
5. Employers will have to abide by all wage and hour laws required for citizens. Immigrants will have to compete for jobs on ability, not cheap labor rates.
OK
6. When you register, (or with a short period of time) you must provide a contact address. And you must notify the government immediately if your contact address changes.
OK
Hopefully, the cost of administering the agency that tracks immigrants will be offset by the savings in ICE.
Part of the reason I thought of this was that I have read several articles recently in local and national news that many business are having problems hiring labor. An article in today's paper said a lot of manufacturing companies and construction companies are missing deadlines because of insufficient labor while at the same time we are trying to run off a lot of laborers.
Seen that as well. If they want to work, let them. Would have a condition that if convicted of a felony, they will be deported.
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http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/doj-one-four-federal-inmates-foreign-born/
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What I've been told by people who've studied this (and have no source to back myself up) is that first generation immigrants do cost our society (social services and whatnot), but that it is well made up for by their second and third generation. The idea is these folks aren't generational welfare recipients. To be honest, I question whether any of them are long-term welfare recipients. Problem is the issue is so politicized that I don't trust very many sources to give me unfiltered information.
This might be a good point, I hope it is true. It certainly has been true that immigrants from Asia for example tend to become extremely productive citizens. I agree that the issue is so polarized it might be hard to get actual true data, either way.
First, I would happily stand band let anyone steal anything from me. I consider it folly to risk my life to protect insured property. My insurer would much rather I keep paying my premiums rather than die protecting my property.
This attitude is what emboldens criminals to step up their game. Especially when anti-gunners disarm citizens so that they are safe to steal from you. Your attitude can only encourage people to steal from all of us. By being willing to use violence against theft you reduce the incentive to steal. You are hurting everyone by refusing to fight thieves with violence.
A border is nothing more than a line drawn in the dirt. It corresponds to no natural law I can identify.
In nature, it is not even a line in the dirt, it's completely invisible, yet it exists most definitely. Any number of species mark territory with urine or scent glands, or howling noises, and so on. The territorial boundaries are very real, and as according to natural law as anything in existence. For others to violate natural territorial boundaries risks a fight, often to the death. Mankind is NO different. Because we mark ours with fences, or just lines on a paper map (symbolically) doesn't make them any less real and we have every right to enforce them as virulently as any other mammal, reptile, insect, etc.
Those who enter illegally victimize no one.
That is my own take on it. Yours might be otherwise, and that's fine. My point was not to make these folks instant citizens, that isn't right and even I agree. But I think we could figure out some penalty that they had to pay in order to rectify their transgression. There are all sorts of crimes where the perpetrator pays a fine in lieu of some other punishment. Most motor vehicle violations are handled this way, for example. The punishment has to fit the crime, or course. That's why I actually ask how bad a crime is it? I think not so much, you think its tantamount to murder. I'd like to think that we as Americans could come to some sort of compromise, a collective view that could be put into some sort of law making a path to citizenship for these folks.
I would consider a path to citizenship only because of the logistics of trying to kick that many people out. Our mistake has been allowing it to happen all these decades. But that's no reason to continue the mistake. It's not true that it victimizes no one. It victimizes all the legal taxpayers, insurance premium payers, etc. in this country.
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But there is also a statute of limitations. For bank robbery it's five years. So after five years the offender is free and clear. Would it be fair to do the same for illegal immigration which is arguably a lesser offense than bank robbery? Maybe keep his/her nose clean for two years and all is forgiven?
Apples and oranges. The reason the "statute of limitations" exists for most crimes is that evidence and testimony gets stale and the cost to prosecute vs chance of conviction.
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Apples and oranges. The reason the "statute of limitations" exists for most crimes is that evidence and testimony gets stale and the cost to prosecute vs chance of conviction.
The statute of limitations doesn't kick in if the crime is ongoing. The illegal alien would have to leave the country for the period of the statute.
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The statute of limitations doesn't kick in if the crime is ongoing. The illegal alien would have to leave the country for the period of the statute.
But that's the crux of the issue. The 7/11 robber can get by a statute of limitations by not robbing for however many years. AN illegal alien can't no matter how above board they are. That's the sticking point you all seem to have. Like I said, so long as there is some sort of stiff penalty my hope is the illegals would prefer to be legals. Not he other hand if they want it that much why don't we make it work in our favor?
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The statute of limitations doesn't kick in if the crime is ongoing. The illegal alien would have to leave the country for the period of the statute.
Good point!
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But that's the crux of the issue. The 7/11 robber can get by a statute of limitations by not robbing for however many years. An illegal alien can't no matter how above board they are. That's the sticking point you all seem to have. Like I said, so long as there is some sort of stiff penalty my hope is the illegals would prefer to be legals. On the other hand if they want it that much why don't we make it work in our favor?
Well, they are continually breaking the law by being here. If they left and didn't come back, eventually they would be in the clear because they wouldn't be breaking the law any more. Think of an illegal immigrant as a guy who continually robs 7/11s and tries to claim the statute of limitations protects him because he committed his first robbery ten years ago. Doesn't make sense, does it?
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Agreed. But what is the crime? Illegally entering the country (a single event) or being in the country without proper documentation of legal entry (a continuing crime)?
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Agreed. But what is the crime? Illegally entering the country (a single event) or being in the country without proper documentation of legal entry (a continuing crime)?
All of the above. Many are identity thieves also, meaning they use another Social Security number to get stuff like driver's licenses, and whatever other benefits in which they can apply.
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The question is how serious do we think their crime (entering illegally) really is? Is it at the level of a misdemeanor? After all, who here hasn't sped on the highway, driven under a bit to much influence, inflated a loss or understated an earning on their taxes, or broken any one of the thousands of laws we have in the US? Or is it felonious, like murder or armed robbery?
Like I said, I honestly think that if they're here, productive and staying out of trouble we should find a way to keep them. That might involve some steep fines, or some community service, or some other punishment that lets them remain productive.
You can scream about what's fair and what isn't until you're blue in the face. What is far more important is what works in practice, not what your ideology tells you. These folks can make a serious addition to our nation, bringing in ambition and values, not to mention some really good alleles.
So why should we have any immigration laws? Let's just let anyone and everyone into the country willy-nilly. Drug dealers, terrorists, criminals, whoever. What could happen?
How many do you want to put up in your house?
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So why should we have any immigration laws? Let's just let anyone and everyone into the country willy-nilly. Drug dealers, terrorists, criminals, whoever. What could happen?
How many do you want to put up in your house?
The perfesser says borders are just imaginary lines anyway. Wonder how he would feel if an alien family built a shanty in his backyard and set up residence? They could tap into his electric and dig a latrine.
I mean, after all, they are just trying to better themselves, right?
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The perfesser says borders are just imaginary lines anyway. Wonder how he would feel if an alien family built a shanty in his backyard and set up residence? They could tap into his electric and dig a latrine.
I mean, after all, they are just trying to better themselves, right?
Good point. If you don't think borders mean much then you must not believe in private property rights. Without national borders our own personal land ownership is pretty meaningless.
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All of the above. Many are identity thieves also, meaning they use another Social Security number to get stuff like driver's licenses, and whatever other benefits in which they can apply.
If you're in California, you don't even need to steal someone's Social Security number or identity to get a driver's license since the state will just give you one:
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/24963-giving-drivers-licenses-to-illegal-aliens-makes-illegal-voting-a-real-possibility
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So why should we have any immigration laws? Let's just let anyone and everyone into the country willy-nilly. Drug dealers, terrorists, criminals, whoever. What could happen?
How many do you want to put up in your house?
I read a letter to the editor that proposed the idea that we eliminate immigration laws and instead put up turnstiles and sell tickets. $X for a one-day pass, or reduced daily rates for longer passes. You can extend your stay by buying more tickets. I would suggest that they also get a GPS locator bracelet like prisoners get that self actuate when their pass expires.
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Well so much for illegal aliens being a "VICTIMLESS CRIME". Let's recap, shall we?
Identity theft using other SS#'s.
Illegally getting driver's licenses (in some states) using false ID
Illegally getting healthcare, education, welfare, etc benefits
Destroying someone else's credit, and financial situation with identity theft
Some illegal aliens are hardened criminals, like being a gang member or drug dealer. MS-13, etc
Working illegally, and getting paid under the table. No taxes paid.
So, yeah, let's just let them in, and not care what happens to us.
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The perfesser says borders are just imaginary lines anyway. Wonder how he would feel if an alien family built a shanty in his backyard and set up residence? They could tap into his electric and dig a latrine.
I mean, after all, they are just trying to better themselves, right?
Actually, if they'd mow the damn yard I'd probably be down with it. ;D But I digress. No one wants a shanty in their back yard, that's where NIMBY comes form. My response would be to reach out to the social services in my community (paid for with my tax dollars) and get the folks the assistance they need so they don't have to live in a shanty. The Conservacrat approach is to sick INS on them.
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Actually, if they'd mow the damn yard I'd probably be down with it. ;D But I digress. No one wants a shanty in their back yard, that's where NIMBY comes form. My response would be to reach out to the social services in my community (paid for with my tax dollars) and get the folks the assistance they need so they don't have to live in a shanty. The Conservacrat approach is to sick INS on them.
Why would you try to get them to move? Are you not proud that they are there and trying to better themselves? The shanty will cost them nothing (they can scavenge your property for material, even cut and burn your trees for cooking and heat).
Don't they have a right to use your property?
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Why would you try to get them to move? Are you not proud that they are there and trying to better themselves? The shanty will cost them nothing (they can scavenge your property for material, even cut and burn your trees for cooking and heat).
Don't they have a right to use your property?
This is a real problem in border areas of Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico where ranchers get squatters all the time, and also vandals, and thieves that torment them regularly. The only solution is to be armed, as the law cannot anticipate the crimes, and are often very far away. It is a constant battle for them, and also expensive to keep themselves, and their property safe, and in good repair.
Maybe Michael would like a small family to move into his Mooney? Kids in back though! :)
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This is a real problem in border areas of Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico where ranchers get squatters all the time, and also vandals, and thieves that torment them regularly. The only solution is to be armed, as the law cannot anticipate the crimes, and are often very far away. It is a constant battle for them, and also expensive to keep themselves, and their property safe, and in good repair.
Maybe Michael would like a small family to move into his Mooney? Kids in back though! :)
That's a cost liberals are willing to endure, as long as it is someone else enduring it, far away.
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If you're in California, you don't even need to steal someone's Social Security number or identity to get a driver's license since the state will just give you one:
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/24963-giving-drivers-licenses-to-illegal-aliens-makes-illegal-voting-a-real-possibility
DL are a primary form of ID. How is the paper trail for identity enforced when you give an illegal a DL?
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DL are a primary form of ID. How is the paper trail for identity enforced when you give an illegal a DL?
California doesn't care. The entire state is a sanctuary state. They would rather provide benefits to illegals at taxpayer expense than fix the issues affecting their own state and their own residents.
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This is a real problem in border areas of Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico where ranchers get squatters all the time, and also vandals, and thieves that torment them regularly. The only solution is to be armed, as the law cannot anticipate the crimes, and are often very far away. It is a constant battle for them, and also expensive to keep themselves, and their property safe, and in good repair.
I would be very interested in the veracity and frequency of this claim. Reminds me of the Cheeto Jesus sourcing his alternative facts as "things he'd heard".
Maybe Michael would like a small family to move into his Mooney? Kids in back though! :)
They would have to be diminutive indeed to live in a Mooney. I'd probably be fine with it if they kept it nice and clean and got out when I wanted to fly.
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I would be very interested in the veracity and frequency of this claim. Reminds me of the Cheeto Jesus sourcing his alternative facts as "things he'd heard".
Which part are you interested in? I've lived in Arizona and ranchers really do have to deal with illegals on a regular basis. The counties in Arizona are large and depending on the part you're in, it can take a while for law enforcement to respond. Going hiking on trails throughout Arizona you will quite frequently find trash left behind from those who have crossed and are making their way further inland. Old milk jugs, blankets, backpacks, etc. It's a very real problem.
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Which part are you interested in? I've lived in Arizona and ranchers really do have to deal with illegals on a regular basis. The counties in Arizona are large and depending on the part you're in, it can take a while for law enforcement to respond. Going hiking on trails throughout Arizona you will quite frequently find trash left behind from those who have crossed and are making their way further inland. Old milk jugs, blankets, backpacks, etc. It's a very real problem.
If you say so, I find crap like that on my street in Ohio all the time.
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I would be very interested in the veracity and frequency of this claim. Reminds me of the Cheeto Jesus sourcing his alternative facts as "things he'd heard".
I took me all of 15 seconds of a google search to come up with a slew of articles. This was the first, and from NBC which is one of the top Democrat propaganda networks.
Wave after wave of Mexican drug and immigrant smugglers are crossing into the U.S., passing through the Arizona border where nearby ranchers say they feel unprotected by their own government. NBC's Mark Potter reports.
By Mark Potter, NBC News correspondent
ARIVACA, Ariz. -- Just before nightfall, 73-year-old rancher Jim Chilton hikes quickly up and down the hills on his rugged cattle-grazing land south of Tucson, escorting two U.S. Border Patrol agents.
He wants to show them the disturbing discovery he made earlier in the day: a drug-smugglers' camp on his private property. Stacked together under a stand of trees are blankets, jackets, food, water, binoculars and bales of marijuana from Mexico wrapped in burlap. The smugglers, themselves, are nowhere in sight and are believed to have fled the area, which is about 10 miles north of the Mexican border.
http://dailynightly.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/26/16047580-faced-with-gun-toting-drug-smugglers-arizona-ranchers-demand-security-at-the-border?lite
Michael, you just don't want to see the truth that busts your utopian bubble?
They would have to be diminutive indeed to live in a Mooney. I'd probably be fine with it if they kept it nice and clean and got out when I wanted to fly.
Yeah, maybe they could then come in and clean your house for free too! ;D
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I would be very interested in the veracity and frequency of this claim. Reminds me of the Cheeto Jesus sourcing his alternative facts as "things he'd heard".
Last year we moved to a town in Texas that is just 3 counties from Mexico. Yes, it is a big problem.
I don't know where you are steingar but it seems really hard for people who aren't near the border to grasp that it is a real invasion. I didn't myself when I lived in North Carolina, although we got illegals ending up there, mostly because it was easy to get a driver's license. Moving so close to the border has been eye opening.
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If you say so, I find crap like that on my street in Ohio all the time.
Steindunce
(http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/man-in-dunce-cap.jpg)
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Actually, if they'd mow the damn yard I'd probably be down with it. ;D But I digress. No one wants a shanty in their back yard, that's where NIMBY comes form. My response would be to reach out to the social services in my community (paid for with my tax dollars) and get the folks the assistance they need so they don't have to live in a shanty. The Conservacrat approach is to sick INS on them.
Nice. But do you support having immigration laws? Or do you want the borders uncontrolled?
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Another reason to own AR-15's, and standard issue 30 round magazines. (not advocating the use of force unless bodily harm, or life is threatened, but I know in Tejas it is justified for property)