PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: President-Elect Bob Noel on July 13, 2016, 04:30:42 AM
-
http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/11/no-racial-bias-police-shootings-study-harvard-prof/
extract from article:
“On the most extreme use of force — officer-involved shootings — we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account,” said Harvard economics professor Roland G. Fryer Jr. in the abstract of the July 2016 paper.
Mr. Fryer, who is black, told The New York Times that the finding of no racial discrimination in police shootings was “the most surprising result of my career.”
At the same time, the study found blacks and Hispanics were more than 50 percent more likely to experience physical interactions with police, including touching, pushing, handcuffing, drawing a weapon, and using a baton or pepper spray.
---end extract---
Note that the "50 percent" quoted from the report is adjusted (down) in the report due to a number of factors. However, overall, there are still signficantly higher "physical interactions" for blacks and hispanics. IIRC, the number is more like 25 percent.
-
So Blacks are killed at the same rate, just beat up more often. Is that about right?
-
So Blacks are killed at the same rate, just beat up more often. Is that about right?
No, the data suggests that encounters between blacks and police typically end up in more physical scuffles but fewer actual shootings (even though blacks commit more crime statistically, they are actually shot at a rate that is substantially lower than would track to their percentage of crime).
It is you and other who describe it as the cops 'beating up blacks'. The data does not provide a rationale for why/how the encounters end up getting physical (e.g., resisting arrest, fleeing, following a high speed chase, or would-be KKK cops who like nothing better than to rough up innocent blacks just walking down the street minding their own business ::)).
The fundamental FACT that should be taken from this study is that the actual data does not in any way support the 'open season on black men' MYTH.
Further, data suggest that cops are considerably more likely to be shot by a black suspect than any other race, and that is before the domestic terror group BLM and their ilk declared open season on LEO's. See The War on Cops by Heather MacDonald for real, dispassionate, fact-based information.
The baseless and divisive rhetoric that have spewed forth from the likes of Sharpton, Jackson, Farrakhan, Lynch, Holder and the Obama's themselves has led directly and inexorably to what happened last week.
Unless and until the black community recognizes it is being played by race-hustlers and is being kept down by the very party that says it cares nothing will change, except the current violence will beget reactions from LEO's and the rest of the country that nobody will enjoy.
'Gimp
-
No, the data suggests that encounters between blacks and police typically end up in more physical scuffles but fewer actual shootings (even though blacks commit more crime statistically, they are actually shot at a rate that is substantially lower than would track to their percentage of crime).
It is you and other who describe it as the cops 'beating up blacks'. The data does not provide a rationale for why/how the encounters end up getting physical (e.g., resisting arrest, fleeing, following a high speed chase, or would-be KKK cops who like nothing better than to rough up innocent blacks just walking down the street minding their own business ::)).
The fundamental FACT that should be taken from this study is that the actual data does not in any way support the 'open season on black men' MYTH.
Further, data suggest that cops are considerably more likely to be shot by a black suspect than any other race, and that is before the domestic terror group BLM and their ilk declared open season on LEO's. See The War on Cops by Heather MacDonald for real, dispassionate, fact-based information.
The baseless and divisive rhetoric that have spewed forth from the likes of Sharpton, Jackson, Farrakhan, Lynch, Holder and the Obama's themselves has led directly and inexorably to what happened last week.
Unless and until the black community recognizes it is being played by race-hustlers and is being kept down by the very party that says it cares nothing will change, except the current violence will beget reactions from LEO's and the rest of the country that nobody will enjoy.
'Gimp
You guys are really destroying JB's racial whining arguments. In fact he was upset that we didn't ask him how he was doing after one of these shootings, and why we didn't provide him a safe space.
-
You guys are really destroying JB's racial whining arguments. In fact he was upset that we didn't ask him how he was doing after one of these shootings, and why we didn't provide him a safe space.
I am honestly so tired of the racial divisiveness, especially when so much of it is a lie. Hands-up don't shoot NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED, it was a lie, a bald-faced lie.
The political prosecution/persecution of the Freddie Gray cops was a racially motivated circus, Mosby should be impeached and disbarred.
If the system was even remotely as biased as it is misrepresented as being there would be no prosecutions, we'd never hear about it, and yet we do in fact hear about it on the limited times when it happens, and that is because the system largely works.
Don't want to get shot by police? Don't break the fucking the law, don't fucking resist arrest, don't fucking cop an attitude, don't fucking run, in short, don't be fucking stupid.
Blacks are not the only ones who tell their kids to obey the law and to be respectful if stopped by the police, every fucking good parent regardless of color gives the same fucking advice. I gave that advice to my daughter as soon as she was old enough to start hanging out with friends who could drive.
I truly pity people for whom skin color is the only or primary filter for their view of life, it is so incredibly limiting and dis-empowering. Same goes for LGBTQ or other 'identity' politics groups/victims.
'Gimp
-
At the same time, the study found blacks and Hispanics were more than 50 percent more likely to experience physical interactions with police, including touching, pushing, handcuffing, drawing a weapon, and using a baton or pepper spray.
Does the study explain why they are 50% more likely to experience physical interactions? Could it be a Chris Rock factor? That is, when the police says to put your hands up, they are not putting their hands up?
The guy in Baton Rouge that got shot at the convenience store...he had a record of physical interactions with police and it happened because he didn't cooperate. In his first arrest 3 years ago, they asked him if he had a gun...he didn't answer. The officer had him resting against the car when he reached into his pocket and a pistol fell out of his waist band. A physical interaction ensued.
-
I am honestly so tired of the racial divisiveness, especially when so much of it is a lie.
While I respect your view, I have my own experiences and the experiences of many law-abiding Black Americans that disagree. And none of this happens in a vacuum. We have 461 years of history supporting our viewpoint.
Cases in point:
I talked with a female friend recently who in passing conversation told me about a situation wherein she was rear-ended by an older white woman. The Caucasian lady was very apologetic and offered to call the police, give her insurance information, etc, etc.. and did so. They were discussing the matter when the cop came on scene and immediately determined that physically restraining my friend was appropriate. When she tried to explain that she was the victim, the cop responded, "Shut the F*** Up!" and the Caucasian woman began to cry at the sight of what she was seeing. It took her sobbing protests to get the officer to disengage....with no apology mind you, and no repercussions on him.
I've had my own experience with police. Most of it decent but once it was bad. A cop rear-ended me while I was on my motorcycle at a red-light, then justified it with perjury UNDER OATH in court with the County attorney painting me as a motorcycle hooligan who normally outruns the police on my "crotch-rocket". Bad policing or racial bias? How do you decide?
-
While I respect your view, I have my own experiences and the experiences of many law-abiding Black Americans that disagree. And none of this happens in a vacuum. We have 461 years of history supporting our viewpoint.
Cases in point:
I talked with a female friend recently who in passing conversation told me about a situation wherein she was rear-ended by an older white woman. The Caucasian lady was very apologetic and offered to call the police, give her insurance information, etc, etc.. and did so. They were discussing the matter when the cop came on scene and immediately determined that physically restraining my friend was appropriate. When she tried to explain that she was the victim, the cop responded, "Shut the F*** Up!" and the Caucasian woman began to cry at the sight of what she was seeing. It took her sobbing protests to get the officer to disengage....with no apology mind you, and no repercussions on him.
I've had my own experience with police. Most of it decent but once it was bad. A cop rear-ended me while I was on my motorcycle at a red-light, then justified it with perjury UNDER OATH in court with the County attorney painting me as a motorcycle hooligan who normally outruns the police on my "crotch-rocket". Bad policing or racial bias? How do you decide?
JB, I respect that you attempt to discuss these things, but I have to say that you and your lady friend are ascribing a reason for her detention or your own experience that is colored (pun not intended) by your own biases.
Could it be there are/were other legitimate reasons for the cops action with your lady friend, maybe a policy or other guidance? You will never actually know for certain why any other human being does anything they do, either they tell you why and you take it at face value, or you choose what to ascribe their action to, either you give them the benefit of the doubt or you don't.
Seems like many people of color choose to ascribe ill motive when LEO's are involved and simply reject the possibility there are other legitimate reasons for their actions. Worse, they seem to assume that whites and other non-blacks don't experience the same issues.
I've been asked rather aggressively if I was drinking at a sobriety stop and had the cop argue with me about my being a non-drinker (never had alcohol of any kind, ever). Was it because I am white? Because I am an amputee? Because I was in a Dodge? Or could it be because he was at a sibreity checkpoint in Albuquerque NM and had been finding drunk after drunk that night?
I have had my own experience regarding motorcycles and the police, and while not exactly the same as yours most cops don't like bikers in my experience and give us a hard time period, and when you are armored up and under a helmet they can't tell what color you are.
This is the problem I see with what strikes me as a victim mentality where one always assumes the worst and ascribes the most base and awful motive to anything their fellow man does.
'Gimp
-
JB, I respect that you attempt to discuss these things, but I have to say that you and your lady friend are ascribing a reason for her detention or your own experience that is colored (pun not intended) by your own biases.
Could it be there are/were other legitimate reasons for the cops action with your lady friend, maybe a policy or other guidance? You will never actually know for certain why any other human being does anything they do, either they tell you why and you take it at face value, or you choose what to ascribe their action to, either you give them the benefit of the doubt or you don't.
Seems like many people of color choose to ascribe ill motive when LEO's are involved and simply reject the possibility there are other legitimate reasons for their actions. Worse, they seem to assume that whites and other non-blacks don't experience the same issues.
I've been asked rather aggressively if I was drinking at a sobriety stop and had the cop argue with me about my being a non-drinker (never had alcohol of any kind, ever). Was it because I am white? Because I am an amputee? Because I was in a Dodge? Or could it be because he was at a sibreity checkpoint in Albuquerque NM and had been finding drunk after drunk that night?
I have had my own experience regarding motorcycles and the police, and while not exactly the same as yours most cops don't like bikers in my experience and give us a hard time period, and when you are armored up and under a helmet they can't tell what color you are.
This is the problem I see with what strikes me as a victim mentality where one always assumes the worst and ascribes the most base and awful motive to anything their fellow man does.
'Gimp
This I can agree with.
But I cannot ignore the constant barrage of story after story and make apologies for it considering our history here with brushes with the State.
-
I ran the article in the OP by a friend who's a professor and this is what she had to say:
I'd like to know more about the methodology. The study concentrated on large police departments for example, in Ca, Fl, and Texas. Many of the most egregious incidents have happened in smaller cities, think Ferguson, Baton Rouge, the Minnesota suburb, Long Island, ect...the article at least doesn't explain why the researchers elected to focus only on large departments. Also, I'd like to know the demographics of the departments studied. It could be that the bigger departments are more racially diverse and that accounts for the results. In my limited time as an academic, I've learned that numbers can and do lie. I've also learned the value of trusting my own eyes and even anecdotal evidence to a certain degree. Methodology matters a lot. Stats can be manipulated or misread in many ways, especially if you're just looking at the raw numbers and not the social/political context.
-
I ran the article in the OP by a friend who's a professor and this is what she had to say:
I'm sure your friend can find these things. This was a study done by a Harvard economics professor, I believe.
-
I ran the article in the OP by a friend who's a professor and this is what she had to say:
in the OP was also the url for the study itself. Perhaps your friend would find the answers she seeks if she read the study.
-
I had not previously sent the study. Good idea guys!
-
Later today, I'll post something about my conversations with my next door neighbor- US Park Police Lieutenant, 22yrs on force.
-
Sorry, I've seen study after study documenting racial bias in just about everything but the law. Seen it through my own eyes. One guy publishing one thing in a journal of which I've never heard does not convince me of anything.
-
Sorry, I've seen study after study documenting racial bias in just about everything but the law. Seen it through my own eyes. One guy publishing one thing in a journal of which I've never heard does not convince me of anything.
Well, if you can't dispute the findings, might as well shoot the messenger...
-
Well, if you can't dispute the findings, might as well shoot the messenger...
There is an element of that in critical thinking. Is the person or entity reporting the new facts in a position to actually know what he or she is reporting? This is important in Science, but even more so in intelligence. I haven't said anything about the author of the study, didn't even look the dude up. Just that the journal isn't one of which I'm familiar (which doesn't mean that much since social sciences aren't my bag. That said, if his study was really that tight he could have published it in Science or Nature. This kind of stuff makes it in). Moreover, the paper in the link isn't the DC paper I read. Because of all this it smells.
-
JB, I respect that you attempt to discuss these things, but I have to say that you and your lady friend are ascribing a reason for her detention or your own experience that is colored (pun not intended) by your own biases.
Could it be there are/were other legitimate reasons for the cops action with your lady friend, maybe a policy or other guidance? You will never actually know for certain why any other human being does anything they do, either they tell you why and you take it at face value, or you choose what to ascribe their action to, either you give them the benefit of the doubt or you don't.
Seems like many people of color choose to ascribe ill motive when LEO's are involved and simply reject the possibility there are other legitimate reasons for their actions. Worse, they seem to assume that whites and other non-blacks don't experience the same issues.
I've been asked rather aggressively if I was drinking at a sobriety stop and had the cop argue with me about my being a non-drinker (never had alcohol of any kind, ever). Was it because I am white? Because I am an amputee? Because I was in a Dodge? Or could it be because he was at a sibreity checkpoint in Albuquerque NM and had been finding drunk after drunk that night?
I have had my own experience regarding motorcycles and the police, and while not exactly the same as yours most cops don't like bikers in my experience and give us a hard time period, and when you are armored up and under a helmet they can't tell what color you are.
This is the problem I see with what strikes me as a victim mentality where one always assumes the worst and ascribes the most base and awful motive to anything their fellow man does.
'Gimp
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes an asshole cop is just an asshole cop.
-
Sorry, I've seen study after study documenting racial bias in just about everything but the law. Seen it through my own eyes. One guy publishing one thing in a journal of which I've never heard does not convince me of anything.
of course it wouldn't
I had no expectations to the contrary
-
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes an asshole cop is just an asshole cop.
Speaking only from personal observation it would be easy to describe asshole cops as one-offs.
What I mean is that assholes are assholes. An asshole cop is that way to everyone, not just he protected race in question.
-
There is an element of that in critical thinking. Is the person or entity reporting the new facts in a position to actually know what he or she is reporting? This is important in Science, but even more so in intelligence. I haven't said anything about the author of the study, didn't even look the dude up. Just that the journal isn't one of which I'm familiar (which doesn't mean that much since social sciences aren't my bag. That said, if his study was really that tight he could have published it in Science or Nature. This kind of stuff makes it in). Moreover, the paper in the link isn't the DC paper I read. Because of all this it smells.
(http://www.campusreform.org/img/CROBlog/7819/Abrams-Fig-1.jpg)
A research study confirms that professors are overwhelmingly more liberal than the national population, and growing more out of sync with each passing year.
http://www.campusreform.org/img/CROBlog/7819/Abrams-Fig-1.jpg