PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: bflynn on July 13, 2016, 11:02:47 AM
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Serious question -
I'm working short term in Canada right now, in Calgary.
Last night I had some free time and took a walk, wound up at a Canadian Tire store. As I wondered around the store killing time, it occurred to me that I was looking at some serious equipment. Air compressors, welding equipment, all kinds of machining tools, a large hunting and fishing department and an even larger car parts store. Why? These people are doing some serious work.
It carries over to the people. These guys are talking about building and creating things. One guy goes out in the woods on weekends and is building a cabin by cutting down trees, that's after he cut a trail to get to the site. The favorite activity for vacation is a week hiking and camping vacation in Banff.
It's almost foreign to anything I see in the US. Has the US lost it's mojo and if so, how do we get it back?
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Sorry, no time to answer right now....playing Pokemon Go :D
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Serious question -
I'm working short term in Canada right now, in Calgary.
Last night I had some free time and took a walk, wound up at a Canadian Tire store. As I wondered around the store killing time, it occurred to me that I was looking at some serious equipment. Air compressors, welding equipment, all kinds of machining tools, a large hunting and fishing department and an even larger car parts store. Why? These people are doing some serious work.
It carries over to the people. These guys are talking about building and creating things. One guy goes out in the woods on weekends and is building a cabin by cutting down trees, that's after he cut a trail to get to the site. The favorite activity for vacation is a week hiking and camping vacation in Banff.
It's almost foreign to anything I see in the US. Has the US lost it's mojo and if so, how do we get it back?
Stop trying to feminize men. Men and women are different. Those that wish this weren't true need to get over it.
And outlaw Pokemon! And nobody under 18 should have a smart phone.
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It's almost foreign to anything I see in the US. Has the US lost it's mojo and if so, how do we get it back?
Why do you say this?
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Stop trying to feminize men. Men and women are different. Those that wish this weren't true need to get over it.
And outlaw Pokemon! And nobody under 18 should have a smart phone.
who the heck needs a smart phone?
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(https://www.mapi.net/sites/default/files/E-721_Table_1.png)
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Why do you say this?
Because I wonder about the gumption of our youth to get out and construct anything. Sure there are people who do. But how many?
I also wonder if the same thing isn't connected to the decline of the number of pilots. Too many people thinking "I could never do that" so they don't even try, and in some cases want to prevent others.
And also because I don't know anyone in the US who has any idea how to build a log cabin in the woods without googling "how do I build a log cabin in the woods" and then guessing at the steps. Or who has any idea how to replace the o-rings on a hydraulic log splitter. Or who has a clue how to heat metal bar stock in a coal forge and then hammer it into a shape. All of which has been topics of conversation this week during breaks. But it wasn't just one person, every Canadian had input to give on each topic and I was the only American who could even talk about the topics.
So, I wonder if America has lost it's mojo.
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The US out-manufactures Canada by something like an order of magnitude. Anyone worried about us vs. them is simply out of touch.
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Because I wonder about the gumption of our youth to get out and construct anything. Sure there are people who do. But how many?
I also wonder if the same thing isn't connected to the decline of the number of pilots. Too many people thinking "I could never do that" so they don't even try, and in some cases want to prevent others.
And also because I don't know anyone in the US who has any idea how to build a log cabin in the woods without googling "how do I build a log cabin in the woods" and then guessing at the steps. Or who has any idea how to replace the o-rings on a hydraulic log splitter. Or who has a clue how to heat metal bar stock in a coal forge and then hammer it into a shape. All of which has been topics of conversation this week during breaks. But it wasn't just one person, every Canadian had input to give on each topic and I was the only American who could even talk about the topics.
So, I wonder if America has lost it's mojo.
In a word, yes.
The very exceptionalism and rugged individualism that made America such a great place and a land of opportunity has been under constant assault for decades from nearly every direction, cultural, philosophical, educational, and governmental - we have regulated and PC'd ourselves into a pale imitation of the greatest generation and the current situation in the EU and UK is a grey foreshadowing of our future of managed decline and ever more limited personal liberty, all in exchange for 'the common good'.
It is very depressing and disheartening since we are willingly doing it to ourselves as a people when instead we should raging against the dying of the light.
'Gimp
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In a word, yes.
The very exceptionalism and rugged individualism that made America such a great place and a land of opportunity has been under constant assault for decades from nearly every direction, cultural, philosophical, educational, and governmental - we have regulated and PC'd ourselves into a pale imitation of the greatest generation and the current situation in the EU and UK is a grey foreshadowing of our future of managed decline and ever more limited personal liberty, all in exchange for 'the common good'.
It is very depressing and disheartening since we are willingly doing it to ourselves as a people when instead we should raging against the dying of the light.
'Gimp
I disagree.
What you're seeing is called the passing of time and modernization. We have many log cabins, log splitters, and forges, with many people who can use them. But we also have huge swaths of urban commerce centers where there is almost no need (not to be confused with no desire) for folks who know how to build log cabins or forge cutlery from stock. And the luxuries of modern life are such that, if we do need a log cabin builder, for example, we can contact them from thousands of miles away and negotiate a deal to have them come and build.
In fact, modern life continues to push away the need for individuals to know how to do the rugged things that people of the past had greater need to know. This is not necessarily good or bad if you take a broad view of it. It just simply is evidence of a changing world.
I think some of your view comes from a memory or cognitive bias of sorts. That is, a nostalgic preference and a tendency to look upon past events more favorably than those who experienced them, and more favorably than current or future events. There have been some studies on this effect, and the cause seemed to be related to our memory. This one (http://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2013/june/june26_nostalgicpreferences.html) from Carnegie Mellon attributes it this way:
"Memory seems to operate much like a record store, stocking the hits of the past, and both the hits and the duds of the present. Rather than recognize this bias, however, we mistakenly believe that what we remember is representative of the entire category of experiences, giving rise to nostalgic preferences," Morewedge explained.
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In a word, yes.
The very exceptionalism and rugged individualism that made America such a great place and a land of opportunity has been under constant assault for decades from nearly every direction, cultural, philosophical, educational, and governmental - we have regulated and PC'd ourselves into a pale imitation of the greatest generation and the current situation in the EU and UK is a grey foreshadowing of our future of managed decline and ever more limited personal liberty, all in exchange for 'the common good'.
It is very depressing and disheartening since we are willingly doing it to ourselves as a people when instead we should raging against the dying of the light.
'Gimp
Yep. This is no longer a nation of builders, it's a nation of users.
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Yep. This is no longer a nation of builders, it's a nation of users.
Mostly bullshit, with a grain of truth.
A century ago, we were a nation of farmers, with more than 50% of Americans making their living in agriculture. Not so much now, huh? Has the nation lost its farming mojo? Are we headed to certain destruction now that only 2% of us is involved in agriculture?
The passage of time and modernization strikes again. The US builds many things, as evidenced by the chart posted above by Steingar. It's just that changes in efficiency and in the types of things we manufacture have changed our manufacturing landscape, and consequently less of us work at making widgets all day.
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Yep. This is no longer a nation of builders, it's a nation of users.
Mostly bullshit, with a grain of truth.
Ok - so the "grain" of truth is the statement that we ARE a nation of users rather than a nation of builders, which is pretty much the statement.
What do you think the bullshit part is?
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Ok - so the "grain" of truth is the statement that we ARE a nation of users rather than a nation of builders, which is pretty much the statement.
What do you think the bullshit part is?
The part where we presuppose that being a nation of factory workers and farmers is right and good, and the current state of affairs is not.
The fact of the matter is that modern America no longer needs a substantial portion of the population to know how to build log cabins or work the factory line. We need people who can build software, circuit boards, and space ships, among others. This is not a sign we've lost our mojo, it's a sign of growth and modernization.
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In a word, yes.
The very exceptionalism and rugged individualism that made America such a great place and a land of opportunity has been under constant assault for decades from nearly every direction, cultural, philosophical, educational, and governmental - we have regulated and PC'd ourselves into a pale imitation of the greatest generation and the current situation in the EU and UK is a grey foreshadowing of our future of managed decline and ever more limited personal liberty, all in exchange for 'the common good'.
It is very depressing and disheartening since we are willingly doing it to ourselves as a people when instead we should raging against the dying of the light.
'Gimp
You aren't allowed to talk about American exceptionalism. Shame on you. Didn't you hear? Obama sees no difference between American exceptionalism and British exceptionalism and Greek exceptionalism. In other words, American exceptionalism doesn't exist.
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The part where we presuppose that being a nation of factory workers and farmers is right and good, and the current state of affairs is not.
The fact of the matter is that modern America no longer needs a substantial portion of the population to know how to build log cabins or work the factory line. We need people who can build software, circuit boards, and space ships, among others. This is not a sign we've lost our mojo, it's a sign of growth and modernization.
That would be fine; if it was reality. But its not. We can't do all those things you mentioned. We have to hire foreigners to help with the programming and building, as well as the picking of tomatoes. And we have to borrow money from China and other countries to support our non-productive segment in the style that we think they should be entitled to, since so many of them are incapable of supporting themselves.
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The truth is that America as a culture has chosen to make things easier for the next generation to the point that we have handcuffed anything that resembles individualism and self reliance. Exceptional outcomes are under constant attack because it ELEVATES those who choose to excel above those that do not.
Some do not excel for reasons of limited talent.
Some do not excel for reasons of limited skill.
Most do not excel because of limited drive which is being enhanced by people who need society of dependent lemmings to remain in power and continue to expand their power.
Every time I see a citizen break out of the pack there is a pack of nibbling idiots attacking them for their success.
Liberalism is based on the premise that no one BE ALLOWED to excel because that challenges the failed cooperative mentality that sustains liberals.
In a socialist society (which is all liberalism is) a small group of people become wildly wealthy and powerful, while everyone else barely sustains themselves. That is the target of our current regime in DC and other places. Failure is beautiful to them because it holds everyone down and allows the chosen few to feed off the pack forever.
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That would be fine; if it was reality. But its not. We can't do all those things you mentioned. We have to hire foreigners to help with the programming and building, as well as the picking of tomatoes. And we have to borrow money from China and other countries to support our non-productive segment in the style that we think they should be entitled to, since so many of them are incapable of supporting themselves.
Not accurate, as already shown in this thread.
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I'm working short term in Canada right now, in Calgary.
Strongly recommend: http://bottlescrewbill.com/
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The part where we presuppose that being a nation of factory workers and farmers is right and good, and the current state of affairs is not.
The fact of the matter is that modern America no longer needs a substantial portion of the population to know how to build log cabins or work the factory line. We need people who can build software, circuit boards, and space ships, among others. This is not a sign we've lost our mojo, it's a sign of growth and modernization.
Where the hell did I say that?
When I was a kid, we built go carts and and tree forts from scrap wood. We graduated to hot rods, chemistry sets and Heathkits. Now we have a generation that can't design themselves out of a paper bag, don't know what end of a hammer to hold. Now we have a generation of "smart" phone USERS who don't build anything and have absolutely no idea how any of it works, much less how to make anything. If it stops working, toss it, and buy a new one. If the one they have works fine, but the marketers shipped a shiny new one, toss the old reliable out.
BTW, we only need a few hundred thousand people to build software, circuit boards, and space ships, What's everyone else going to do?
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That would be fine; if it was reality. But its not. We can't do all those things you mentioned. We have to hire foreigners to help with the programming and building, as well as the picking of tomatoes. And we have to borrow money from China and other countries to support our non-productive segment in the style that we think they should be entitled to, since so many of them are incapable of supporting themselves.
NO WE DON'T.
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Oh gawd... it's that time of month again! ::) Old men, just like women, once a month seem to get moody, depressed and crabby. The old men start bitching about the "youth of today" and the "decline of America" with regularity. This much I have learned from the various pilot forums.
Unlike the women, the old men don't have a good reason to do all their bitching and moaning. Look around gents. Within 10 miles of me I have a Home Depot, a Lowes, an ACE hardware, an OSH hardware, a Fastenal store and they are building a Tractor Supply. Drive a little further and I also have a Graingers and specialty hardware and lumber stores. All these retail stores do exist just for professional contractors and of course the internet will deliver anything I need to build right to my door.
In short, Americans are building all kinds of crap everywhere!!
It's true, not many Americans know how to go into a forest, cut down trees and make a log cabin, but who cares??! That's a fucking stupid skill to have! That may have been a a bit too strong as I do admire folks that keep out dated technology alive, like forging medieval swords, building boats with wood and no metal fasteners, or rebuilding and operating steam engines, but at some point they are living history, hobbyists and a niche, not what make America strong.
If somebody needs something to help them get through the old man cramps, just go to YouTube and search for- "Man builds a...", or "Homemade..." I guarantee you will find some cool shit that Americans are doing right now. Not just old geezer America either, the kids really do like making stuff too. Now a days they are called "makers" and it's a badge of honor and pride. I find it amusing as I have been a "maker" all my life and we always thought of it as cheap bastard tinkering, but hey, the times they change.
The times ahead look good for American invention and innovation. With 3D printing, CAD design, CNC machining, 3D scanning and loads of new software, we no longer have to whittle stuff out of wood, or beat on metal with a hammer. The stuff the next generation will build will blow the log cabins away.
We may not be number one in manufacturing anymore, but we are well positioned to continue to dominate the creative building and designing of things all through the 21st century. Somebody mentioned smart phones earlier. That is a Made in America invention that has spread through out the world. Most here are now dependent on it. Every bit as important as the invention of the automobile, or even the log cabin. That's what I'm talking about!
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I dunno.
Oshkosh is coming up and I am missing the EAA 1114 breakfast this weekend. But odds are very low there will be a new build start and the average age of builders is very high. If the EAA is an accurate predictor, the youth are not interested in building things. As someone said early on, too busy playing pokemon go.
Are there people who build stuff? Sure, of course there are. But go through your house and ask yourself how many of those products are made by an American company. How many of them were designed by an American engineer? The answer is depressingly low. The manufacturing knowledge is being lost, the know how is owned in other countries.
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I dunno.
Oshkosh is coming up and I am missing the EAA 1114 breakfast this weekend. But odds are very low there will be a new build start and the average age of builders is very high. If the EAA is an accurate predictor, the youth are not interested in building things. As someone said early on, too busy playing pokemon go.
Are there people who build stuff? Sure, of course there are. But go through your house and ask yourself how many of those products are made by an American company. How many of them were designed by an American engineer? The answer is depressingly low. The manufacturing knowledge is being lost, the know how is owned in other countries.
The average age of an EAA member is 65. That being said I currently have a dozen young folks building an ultra-lite Pietenpol every Saturday for four hours. They earn credits to be used for flight training to get them to solo stage. Info and pictures available at http://youth.eaa690.net
On the other hand a lot of those guys shopping at Lowes HD, etc are hispanic and are the ones building our houses now.
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Most young people have a different sort of hobby, procreation. There are only so many that can take time out from their families and jobs to build aircraft. There are some, I've met them. But not that many. Lots of guys have trouble balancing flying and kids. The financial drain of a family is enormous, most people just can't justify the expense and I can't blame them.
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I dunno.
Oshkosh is coming up and I am missing the EAA 1114 breakfast this weekend. But odds are very low there will be a new build start and the average age of builders is very high. If the EAA is an accurate predictor, the youth are not interested in building things. As someone said early on, too busy playing pokemon go.
Are there people who build stuff? Sure, of course there are. But go through your house and ask yourself how many of those products are made by an American company. How many of them were designed by an American engineer? The answer is depressingly low. The manufacturing knowledge is being lost, the know how is owned in other countries.
The EAA is not at all an accurate predictor. How many full size FAA registered airplanes did you build when you were young? How in the world is a kid supposed afford to build one all by themselves now? What's a basic VFR Vans RV cost to build now, some thing like $70,000? That doesn't even include all the tools you'll have to buy and the fact that you have to have a place to actually build it and be able to have complete control of that space fro at least the next 5 years. Hell, old people aren't even starting new builds as much either.
A better use of a young person's time is working on a career and earning money to save for retirement. Building airplanes is what you do when you are retired. Short term building projects are what they should do and that's exactly what many are doing. They're building things like drones and a kid I know is into building battle bots to compete in competitions. Another guy I know is getting really good at one of the things I built as a kid, skateboard ramps.
As to the stuff around the house, don't blame the kids for that. That's the result of free international markets, capitalism and having everyone's retirement wealth tied to the stock market. The transition away from manufacturing began a generation ahead of me. I used to get mad that so much stuff I bought was made in Japan, little did I know back then the monster that was yet to come! :o
As people have pointed out here, America still "makes" as much stuff as it used to, it just most isn't 100 % American made anymore. We are still very much in the design game and we do a lot of research and development. Many of the successful foreign companies that built the things in your house were actually designed here by Americans working for those companies. Much of the tech in them was invented and made viable right here.
America is changing as it always has. As someone pointed out earlier, most of us don't plow our own fields anymore either. That was an earlier America and we aren't that America anymore.
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There's a Airdrome Aeroplane that can be built and flown for under 25k. That is still a good chunk of change, but well within the means of your average adult.
Perhaps it's tied into stratification of the middle class toward lower pay grades...that people don't take on these projects or the hobby of flying because it's beyond the means of their disposable income, because disposable income (inflation adjusted) has shrunk over the years.
I don't know what it is - I know that I see a much more robust and IMO a much more capable citizen in Canada than I know in the US. That isn't to say they're perfect and it's way too cold up here during the winters. They just seem much more capable of surviving without others doing things for them. Modernization creates dependencies.
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Dave has it right. Most of you are just old and struggling with the changing times. No offense, but that's what I get from this thread.
I live in a county that has a population larger than that of the entire state of Wyoming. I live 2 minutes from the county line and on the other side is Tampa, a single city with greater than half the population of Wyoming.
Despite the fact that this is an urban environment without a farm in sight, my county has 8 Home Depots, 5 Lowes, 9 Ace Hardwares, and 3 Harbor Freights, among lots of other crap. We also have multiple "Makerspaces". They are all always packed. There are lots of people making things here. Oh, and there is a log cabin company in Tampa.
If you're reminiscing about the days when most of the people you met could work with their hands in the traditional sense, to build a log cabin or what have you, that's fine. But those days are gone, and that void has been filled by other things. Coding, tinkering with hardware and software, 3-d printing, hacking, etc. And some people can still build things in the traditional sense, too.
I'm 35 and enjoy many things: I'm a pilot (though medical lapsed), I've fixed a jet ski, I laid my own floor in my new house, installed my own baseboard, I demo'd the entryway tile with a power demolition hammer, I'm building wall-mounted fold out desks for the kids' rooms. My next big project is a paver patio with wall seating and a grilling station. I also dabble in Python programming by way of an open-source toolkit (http://www.evennia.com/)for text-based multiplayer games. And guess what -- I used YouTube to help! No shame in that.
Younger folks still do things, just not necessarily the same things, or the same way, as you used to.
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I don't know what it is - I know that I see a much more robust and IMO a much more capable citizen in Canada than I know in the US. That isn't to say they're perfect and it's way too cold up here during the winters. They just seem much more capable of surviving without others doing things for them. Modernization creates dependencies.
You overheard people talking about building a log cabin and changing an o-ring on a log splitter. This is not broadly indicative of anything. I'm sure you could find areas in the US where people know the same. If you intend to broaden those conversations to the greater Canadian public, I am not sure why that knowledge among the broader public is a sign of being "more capable". It's a sign of being less modern, in my opinion. The modern US has extremely little need for log cabin builders and small-time log splitter handymen.
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Most young people have a different sort of hobby, preventing procreation.
FTFY
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You overheard people talking about building a log cabin and changing an o-ring on a log splitter. This is not broadly indicative of anything. I'm sure you could find areas in the US where people know the same. If you intend to broaden those conversations to the greater Canadian public, I am not sure why that knowledge among the broader public is a sign of being "more capable". It's a sign of being less modern, in my opinion. The modern US has extremely little need for log cabin builders and small-time log splitter handymen.
As I said - more modern = more dependent. These are independent people, they take care of themselves and they are responsible for their own lives. If you want to deride that as less "modern" then you're applying a personal preference.
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As I said - more modern = more dependent.
Alright, but this is a statement about how the world has worked for thousands of years. Humans used to be solely hunters and gatherers until the rise of agriculture allowed them to settle in large communities. In relatively short order, with the help of technological advancement, individuals within those communities began to specialize. The first potter's wheel was invented around 6,000 BC. Individuals began to specialize in pottery, and before long you went to the potter and traded some food in return for a quality pot.
The same thing happens today. Some people specialize in log cabin building. But the vast majority of people have no need for it, or can hire the few companies that specialize in it. Way of the world, and all that.
These are independent people, they take care of themselves and they are responsible for their own lives. If you want to deride that as less "modern" then you're applying a personal preference.
You're ascribing derision to my words that does not exist.
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Take a look at country clubs, at aircraft clubs, at most of the conventional social clubs. Look at the membership and age demographic.
I think it's indicative of two things: younger people do different things with their spare time, and younger people also lack the disposable income to dispense the amount of money required to participate in such activities.
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Take a look at country clubs, at aircraft clubs, at most of the conventional social clubs. Look at the membership and age demographic.
I think it's indicative of two things: younger people do different things with their spare time, and younger people also lack the disposable income to dispense the amount of money required to participate in such activities.
I think it's always been that way.
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There's a Airdrome Aeroplane that can be built and flown for under 25k. That is still a good chunk of change, but well within the means of your average adult.
Perhaps it's tied into stratification of the middle class toward lower pay grades...that people don't take on these projects or the hobby of flying because it's beyond the means of their disposable income, because disposable income (inflation adjusted) has shrunk over the years.
I don't know what it is - I know that I see a much more robust and IMO a much more capable citizen in Canada than I know in the US. That isn't to say they're perfect and it's way too cold up here during the winters. They just seem much more capable of surviving without others doing things for them. Modernization creates dependencies.
How many planes have you built? Maybe you just live in a lame part of the country because there are lots of people building stuff where I live. I live on the water, and about a year ago a local guy drove by my dock with a home built steam powered boat. Now that's dedication! I have a video of it on my phone, but it's hassle to attach it here.
There's also a kid down the street from me in his '20s that has resurrected a barn find ratty old Model A Ford and drives it around the neighborhood. Now I want one!! ;D My only concern is, he drives way too fast for the crappy mechanical brakes it has!
Maybe it's just a California thing. I've never lived in another state. Here some people are always building things and working on projects. Of course there are lots of folks like my brother in law that really aren't sure which end of the hammer to use and hire everything done, but he makes over 3x I do in income working as financial planner and broker for Fidelity. I can build a deck, repaint a car, weld, machine, and build a house if need be, but I can not for the life of me make the money he does.
I just don't see the worthless America you do where you live I guess.
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I just don't see the worthless America you do where you live I guess.
I agree with that, but I understand the point.
I also understand the point people make about every generation complaining about the younger generation. There is a written history about that going back to Ceaser's time.
But here is where I see the difference. (at least in my own opinion). For most of time, people blamed the kids. Today, I blame the over-protective "helicopter parents". In the past, kids got rebellious and at least thought they were thinking for themselves. Today's kids have not been taught how to do anything for themselves (yes, I know that generalizations are always wrong,so I don't mean ALL kids).
Yes, kids are taught HOW to do things, and when the don't pick it up right away, they get trophies anyway and told how great they are. But kids don't really learn important things, like how to overcome failure or setbacks. Even in the schools, they are taught how to pass tests, not how to think through problems.
I have employed hundreds of wonderful, hardworking kids. But they don't seem to be able to take the least bit of criticism.
Oh, and I was in Lowes today. Almost everyone was over 50.
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The most cutting-edge stuff the US does is filled with young people. Everything will be alright, folks.
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The most cutting-edge stuff the US does is filled with young people. Everything will be alright, folks.
yep, feel free to ignore all evidence to the contrary
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yep, feel free to ignore all evidence to the contrary
Shaking your cane at whippersnappers, overhearing Paul Bunyan in a Canadian outdoor store, and describing how the world has always worked, are not evidence of anything out of the ordinary.
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Time will tell. I think as pilots we are not a representative slice.
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yep, feel free to ignore all evidence to the contrary
Such as?
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Such as?
Most of us no longer churn our own butter. This world is going to shit.
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Such as?
do you understand what a helicopter mom is?
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A mix of hyperbole and fear mongering, so is that what has you hot and bothered?
I tell ya, I have three small kids, and I have yet to meet a single parent in my age bracket that is a "helicopter parent." If that's all you've experienced, then I pity you.
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The US out-manufactures Canada by something like an order of magnitude. Anyone worried about us vs. them is simply out of touch.
Per Capita? Really Michael?
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Per Capita? Really Michael?
I missed where he said "per capita", but even on a per capita basis, the US still out manufactures Canada.