PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: bflynn on July 08, 2016, 02:54:57 PM
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OMG, Those kids are just so adorable! The way they killed the Israeli guard, shot mortar shells, blew up the tank and then took that Israeli hostage!
So cute! If the kids are this adorable, imagine what kind of wonderful fathers they must have! We should bring more and more of their fathers over here to the US, what could possibly go wrong?
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If you are looking for some kind of equivalence, there is none.
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Do you have a point with this video? Or is the Palestinian kids play about killing Jews just fine with you?
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oh yeah, that's exactly the same. ::) ::) ::) ::)
Are you a snowflake?
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How about these parents?
(http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/imagecache/page/images/54868.jpg)
Or these parents?
(http://www.worldwar42.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Kid-holding-gun.jpg)
Or these parents?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/acb8OFaKtvY/hqdefault.jpg)
Or these parents?
(http://vacationworld.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/kid%20with%20machine%20gun.jpg?itok=3-dRHZyN)
Or these?
(http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/PL/2014/140829/2ndAmendment.jpg)
You can go on all day as these kinds of images are super easy to come up with? OMG, Those kids are just so adorable! ::)
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How about these parents?
(http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/imagecache/page/images/54868.jpg)
Or these parents?
(http://www.worldwar42.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Kid-holding-gun.jpg)
Or these parents?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/acb8OFaKtvY/hqdefault.jpg)
Or these parents?
(http://vacationworld.us/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/kid%20with%20machine%20gun.jpg?itok=3-dRHZyN)
Or these?
(http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/DS/PL/2014/140829/2ndAmendment.jpg)
You can go on all day as these kinds of images are super easy to come up with? OMG, Those kids are just so adorable! ::)
Bringing kids to the range has any relevance to a play about killing Jews? You are as off base as Jaybird in this matter.
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Bringing kids to the range has any relevance to a play about killing Jews? You are as off base as Jaybird in this matter.
Not really. It's all about instilling values on the kids. One is teaching their kids to be ready to face some kind of imaginary, or hypothetical danger and the other is preparing them to face a very real and inevitable danger. The Israeli, Palestinian conflict has now been going on for generations and some of those kids will grow up to face the Israeli army.
It's all a matter of perspective. To us here in the states, It seems all so clear and simple, but to people that live there and grew up in it, it's very different. Don't get me wrong, I fully support the Israelis in this issues, but I am not so blind to not be sympathetic to the Palestinian people that are stuck in this mess. Religion really isn't the cause here, but it does make it worse for sure.
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Palestinian kids are indoctrinated in hatred of Israelis. They have cartoon characters that tell them it's a good thing to go kill Jews.
All this bad blood is really a pity. Judaism and Islam have pronounced similarities.
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Not really. It's all about instilling values on the kids. One is teaching their kids to be ready to face some kind of imaginary, or hypothetical danger and the other is preparing them to face a very real and inevitable danger. The Israeli, Palestinian conflict has now been going on for generations and some of those kids will grow up to face the Israeli army.
It's all a matter of perspective. To us here in the states, It seems all so clear and simple, but to people that live there an drew up in it, it's very different. Don't get me wrong, I fully support the Israelis in this issues, but I am not so blind to not be sympathetic to the Palestinian people that are stuck in this mess. Religion really isn't the cause here, but it does make it worse for sure.
Sorry, Dave. But that's bullshit. In one instance, the target at the range is a piece of paper, or a piece of metal. Period. In the other, the target is real human beings of a different religion.
As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, show me where the Israelis commit unprovoked and random violence against Palestinians. Please, show me. The "real, inevitable" danger is not inevitable, and is dictated by the terrorists in their midst. Those terrorists may likely be the fathers and mothers who send their kids to these indoctrination "schools," which, by the way, we American citizens probably fund through "humanitarian aid."
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It is illuminating about the OP that he would equate target practice and gun safety education with palestinian children being indoctrinated to KILL people of a different religion just because they practice a different faith.
Your racism knows very little bounds and has no anchor in reality.
Other than as a reminder of how idiotic the black racist movement really is, your posts have no value.
um, bflynn was the OP
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It is illuminating about the OP that he would equate target practice and gun safety education with palestinian children being indoctrinated to KILL people of a different religion just because they practice a different faith.
Your racism knows very little bounds and has no anchor in reality.
Other than as a reminder of how idiotic the black racist movement really is, your posts have no value.
I take it you meant JB. I posted the video to illustrate Steiner's point - the violence is not inevitable, it is created by indoctrinating the children at an early age to do it. Equally illuminating was the number of parents who sat in the audience and endorsed the presentation.
If the Palestinians unilaterally disarmed, there would be peace. If Israel unilaterally disarmed, they would cease to exist. Who is the aggressor?
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Sorry, Dave. But that's bullshit. In one instance, the target at the range is a piece of paper, or a piece of metal. Period. In the other, the target is real human beings of a different religion.
As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, show me where the Israelis commit unprovoked and random violence against Palestinians. Please, show me. The "real, inevitable" danger is not inevitable, and is dictated by the terrorists in their midst. Those terrorists may likely be the fathers and mothers who send their kids to these indoctrination "schools," which, by the way, we American citizens probably fund through "humanitarian aid."
See, you're making the mistake of thinking the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is all about religion. It's not. It's about land, control of land, living conditions and prosperity. They use religion to justify and their actions and to inspire them to continue, but it's not about religion at all. The Palestinians want their property back and they are willing to fight with whatever they have for 1000 years if need be. It's what happens to a people when they have nothing, nowhere to go and nothing to lose.
The irony is, Hitler's "Final Solution" that the Jews ran from, is likely the solution they will come to with the Palestinians. The Palestinians will never stop fighting for their property back, they will never stop getting support from outsiders and they will never be satisfied with crumbs and scraps for Israel. This will go on for 1000 years unless the Israelis get fed up and burn them from the land. I see no good solutions at this point and neither does anybody else.
It's foolish to not understand the Palestinian position and only see the Israeli side of it.
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interesting. "The Palestinians want their property back "
really? it was theirs?
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See, you're making the mistake of thinking the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is all about religion. It's not. It's about land, control of land, living conditions and prosperity. They use religion to justify and their actions and to inspire them to continue, but it's not about religion at all. The Palestinians want their property back and they are willing to fight with whatever they have for 1000 years if need be. It's what happens to a people when they have nothing, nowhere to go and nothing to lose.
The irony is, Hitler's "Final Solution" that the Jews ran from, is likely the solution they will come to with the Palestinians. The Palestinians will never stop fighting for their property back, they will never stop getting support from outsiders and they will never be satisfied with crumbs and scraps for Israel. This will go on for 1000 years unless the Israelis get fed up and burn them from the land. I see no good solutions at this point and neither does anybody else.
It's foolish to not understand the Palestinian position and only see the Israeli side of it.
We can take "religion" out of the paragraph, and the principle still stands. You didn't answer my questions.
And I do know the history, and the Palestinian's view of it. Here is the Palestinian Charter, which is rife with violence against the Zionists, and by the way does look at the situation from a religious point of view:
http://pac-usa.org/the_palestinian_charter.htm
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We can take "religion" out of the paragraph, and the principle still stands. You didn't answer my questions.
And I do know the history, and the Palestinian's view of it. Here is the Palestinian Charter, which is rife with violence against the Zionists, and by the way does look at the situation from a religious point of view:
http://pac-usa.org/the_palestinian_charter.htm
You mistakenly believe that Zionism is a religion, when it is not. It is a political view that has religion co-opted onto it to give it a veil of legitimacy.
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You mistakenly believe that Zionism is a religion, when it is not. It is a political view that has religion co-opted onto it to give it a veil of legitimacy.
And I think that's the end of that discussion. When someone is this absurd, it's probably best not to wrestle in the mud with the pig anymore.
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(http://www.yourstrongestlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Hot-button.jpg)
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Sorry about the inappropriate reference. I was just as you said.
No worries...
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interesting. "The Palestinians want their property back "
really? it was theirs?
Well as we all know, property ownership is always transient. As I have said before, property really only belongs to those that have the means to keep it and defend it against outsiders that might want to take it. Many peoples have failed in their defense of lands over the centuries and lost places they once called home. However this fact of history and mankind's behavior doesn't stop those that have lost from trying to get their lands back, or feel that they have been wronged.
The Palestinians lived there for a 1000 years or so and that is their only claim to it. The Israelis had the power to take it and keep it. The Israelis have been contested constantly since and they prevail, so the land belongs to them. It is what it is, but the Paletinians haven't given up contesting it even though they are clearly beaten. I guess they are stubborn. Very likely many here would be too in that situation.
It's super easy for us to sit over here and say to the Palestinians that they should give up and be good losers, hand over their guns to the winners and do as Israelis dictate so that there can be peace and we don't have to think about it anymore. For them though, it is an epic struggle to the death in an attempt to gain control of lands they consider theirs by birth right. Like I said, this will go on until either the Israelis get fed up, commit genocide and wipe them out, or Israel gives up and disbands as a country. There will not be a "Two State Solution". Apparently Palestinians are more feisty than Native Americans and will not agree to be relocated to reservations.
ISIS may actually be a blessing in disguise for Israel. It is likely that ISIS will eventually try to take over control of the Gaza Strip and attack Israel. This would give Israel a good reason to go to total war on the people of the Gaza Strip and use it as a way to eradicate the Palestinians there and eventually absorb the Gaza Strip into Israel. I don't know if ISIS could take over the West Bank or not, but it seems unlikely now.
Why it is so hard for folks here to understand why Palestinians fight, and teach their kids to fight, is beyond me. The religions aspect of it is a smoke screen. They use religion to inspire people to fight and struggle on by telling them that Allah is on their side and they will prevail eventually. These aren't exactly large groups of brain surgeons and rocket scientists. Religion has been used to manipulate and control masses of people since the beginning of mankind I'm sure.
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Who controlled Gaza before Israel captured it in 1967?
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Who controlled Gaza before Israel captured it in 1967?
IIRC, Egypt. What's your point?
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IIRC, Egypt. What's your point?
It's been quite some time since the Palestinians controlled Gaza.
Before the British occupied it in 1914(?), Gaza was occupied/controlled by, iirc, the Ottoman Empire.
Eventually, claim to land ceases to be credible.
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More than that. At the time of partition Palestine was just the trans Jordan. The people in it were Jordanians, most were itinerant workers doing stuff for the British. The situation has been exacerbated and continued by the neighboring powers, much to the detriment of the people. The Palestinians are Arabs, they speak Arabic and are mostly Sunni Muslims. The Arabian peninsula is huge, around a million and quarter square miles. Many of its economies are booming from oil wealth, there is plenty of room for these people. But the local powers prefer them to be impoverished and in refugee camps. And they say the Israelis are the bad guys. Yeah, right.
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Well as we all know, property ownership is always transient. As I have said before, property really only belongs to those that have the means to keep it and defend it against outsiders that might want to take it. Many peoples have failed in their defense of lands over the centuries and lost places they once called home. However this fact of history and mankind's behavior doesn't stop those that have lost from trying to get their lands back, or feel that they have been wronged.
The Palestinians lived there for a 1000 years or so and that is their only claim to it. The Israelis had the power to take it and keep it. The Israelis have been contested constantly since and they prevail, so the land belongs to them. It is what it is, but the Paletinians haven't given up contesting it even though they are clearly beaten. I guess they are stubborn. Very likely many here would be too in that situation.
It's super easy for us to sit over here and say to the Palestinians that they should give up and be good losers, hand over their guns to the winners and do as Israelis dictate so that there can be peace and we don't have to think about it anymore. For them though, it is an epic struggle to the death in an attempt to gain control of lands they consider theirs by birth right. Like I said, this will go on until either the Israelis get fed up, commit genocide and wipe them out, or Israel gives up and disbands as a country. There will not be a "Two State Solution". Apparently Palestinians are more feisty than Native Americans and will not agree to be relocated to reservations.
ISIS may actually be a blessing in disguise for Israel. It is likely that ISIS will eventually try to take over control of the Gaza Strip and attack Israel. This would give Israel a good reason to go to total war on the people of the Gaza Strip and use it as a way to eradicate the Palestinians there and eventually absorb the Gaza Strip into Israel. I don't know if ISIS could take over the West Bank or not, but it seems unlikely now.
Why it is so hard for folks here to understand why Palestinians fight, and teach their kids to fight, is beyond me. The religions aspect of it is a smoke screen. They use religion to inspire people to fight and struggle on by telling them that Allah is on their side and they will prevail eventually. These aren't exactly large groups of brain surgeons and rocket scientists. Religion has been used to manipulate and control masses of people since the beginning of mankind I'm sure.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160711/6ff695726408c52878871cea97fa9763.gif)
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It's been quite some time since the Palestinians controlled Gaza.
Before the British occupied it in 1914(?), Gaza was occupied/controlled by, iirc, the Ottoman Empire.
Eventually, claim to land ceases to be credible.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160711/b4c1b5310ebeebe036538353b6ee0f16.gif)
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It's been quite some time since the Palestinians controlled Gaza.
Before the British occupied it in 1914(?), Gaza was occupied/controlled by, iirc, the Ottoman Empire.
Eventually, claim to land ceases to be credible.
The Palestinian's claim to that territory is just as valid as the Ottomans, the British, the Egyptians or even the Israelis. They can always claim it as theirs. Having the means to actually control it and defend it as their own is a different matter. It is the Palestinian's natural right in the animal kingdom to try to take it from the Israelis if they want. So far they have failed miserably, killed a lot of their people trying and ruined their economy by trying, but it is their right to try if they wish.
Combat is the most common way countries have traded control of territory over the ages and it is no different today.
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More than that. At the time of partition Palestine was just the trans Jordan. The people in it were Jordanians, most were itinerant workers doing stuff for the British. The situation has been exacerbated and continued by the neighboring powers, much to the detriment of the people. The Palestinians are Arabs, they speak Arabic and are mostly Sunni Muslims. The Arabian peninsula is huge, around a million and quarter square miles. Many of its economies are booming from oil wealth, there is plenty of room for these people. But the local powers prefer them to be impoverished and in refugee camps. And they say the Israelis are the bad guys. Yeah, right.
This is very true. The Palestinians are the Arabian Gypsies. Nobody wants them and that's why they are trying desperately to find a place of their own and they believe it should be all of the areas controlled by Israel. That would be a neat solution to their problem because they wouldn't have to fight with other Arab nations (or so they think!). In fact they try to capitalize on the Arab world's hatred of the Jews to get the job done. It's a simple plan, a beautiful plan, but a stupid plan. They would be wise to give up, but it looks as though that will never happen.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160711/6ff695726408c52878871cea97fa9763.gif)
I know, right? Pretty tiny chunk of real estate to fight about. I think the vast majority of Arab and Muslim countries are coming to this conclusion. It isn't so bad having Israel in the neighborhood and they are good for business. The various Islamic terror groups including ISIS as well as the Palestinians are really the only entities that are actively pursuing Israel's destruction.
The rest have licked their wounds, or swallowed their pride and have made peace with the idea that Israel is here to stay and likely can not be dislodged. Sure lots of countries in the region still have to give lip service to the "death to Israel" communities for political reasons, but there are no active plans to actually do anything about it and that includes Iran.
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This is very true. The Palestinians are the Arabian Gypsies. Nobody wants them and that's why they are trying desperately to find a place of their own and they believe it should be all of the areas controlled by Israel. That would be a neat solution to their problem because they wouldn't have to fight with other Arab nations (or so they think!). In fact they try to capitalize on the Arab world's hatred of the Jews to get the job done. It's a simple plan, a beautiful plan, but a stupid plan. They would be wise to give up, but it looks as though that will never happen.
I don't remember any stories where the gypsies pledged their intention to exterminate an entire country. But maybe that is just me. If the Palenstinians acted like gypsies then there wouldn't be a problem. Heck, if they would just quit shooting Israelis and quit launching mortars and rockets and quit blowing stuff up, it would get better for them.
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I don't remember any stories where the gypsies pledged their intention to exterminate an entire country. But maybe that is just me. If the Palenstinians acted like gypsies then there wouldn't be a problem. Heck, if they would just quit shooting Israelis and quit launching mortars and rockets and quit blowing stuff up, it would get better for them.
Yep, they could make all their lives better by giving up on the dream of defeating the Israelis. However, it's not likely. The rhetoric about destroying Israel and pushing the Jews into the sea is mostly political. While they fantasize about such things, it's mostly to look tough to their base and to broadcast their resolve. They need help from outside in the Arab world to get in any position to negotiate with Israel. The narrative of the plucky underdog that has been egregiously wronged by the wicked alien invaders plays well in the Arab world. However, to get any assistance, they need to show they are serious and willing to go the distance.
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Who, of anyone in the entire world, has the ability to tell Israel what they will do? The US? Not after how Obama has destroyed what presidents have spent decades building.
The answer is nobody. So no matter how much political power the Palestinians get behind them, the choices come down to Israel not budging or Arabs going military with an overwhelming army vs nuclear weapons. Israel has them and I have no doubt they will use them if things look bad.
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Most Arab governments are little more than kleptocracy was, and almost all are utterly inept. Israel makes a handy scapegoat.
The land of Israel was promised to the Jewish people by God, it is part of the Jewish covenant and a central tenet of the religion. Zionism is a simple outcropping of this.
Jerusalem is mentioned in the Bible on the order of 700 times. Israel is mentioned almost as many. Neither appear in the Quran.
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Most Arab governments are little more than kleptocracy was, and almost all are utterly inept. Israel makes a handy scapegoat.
The land of Israel was promised to the Jewish people by God, it is part of the Jewish covenant and a central tenet of the religion. Zionism is a simple outcropping of this.
Jerusalem is mentioned in the Bible on the order of 700 times. Israel is mentioned almost as many. Neither appear in the Quran.
You are incorrect sir. Both are mentioned.
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Who, of anyone in the entire world, has the ability to tell Israel what they will do? The US? Not after how Obama has destroyed what presidents have spent decades building.
The answer is nobody. So no matter how much political power the Palestinians get behind them, the choices come down to Israel not budging or Arabs going military with an overwhelming army vs nuclear weapons. Israel has them and I have no doubt they will use them if things look bad.
The U.N. will not tell Israel what to do because the US is the big bully brother that allows them to disregard U.N. resolutions. Many of the violations that formed the basis of the U.S. invasion of Iraq has Israel committing those same violations; NO Middle Eastern country is supposed to have WMDs according to UN resolutions, but no one says a word about Israel having them.
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You are incorrect sir. Both are mentioned.
Prove it. I'll admit I may be wrong about Israel since it was part of the local geography in Mohammed's time, but I am certain about Jerusalem.
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Prove it. I'll admit I may be wrong about Israel since it was part of the local geography in Mohammed's time, but I am certain about Jerusalem.
I think you're right about being mentioned by name, but it is inferred here:
17:1 Glory to Him Who carried His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Remote Mosque, whose precincts We blessed, that We might show him of Our signs! Surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
17:2 And We gave Moses the Book and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel (saying): Take no guardian beside Me—
Jerusalem is known as the Mosque of Al-Aqsa and is spoken of in stories about The Ascension.
It's also my understanding that the name of the city has been changed over the years. I'll have to dig up some references to see what was the name at the time of the Prophet.
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Been Jerusalem since biblical times and was such at the time of Mohammed. Like I said, it is a central point for Judaic religions but not Muslim ones. It is part of the Muslim tradition, I'll grant you that. But the holy places for Muslims are Mecca and Medina. For Jews, its Jerusalem. A central tenet of the religion is that God himself granted the Jews Israel as part of the covenant. It is very much a place based religion. When I was a kid we ended every prayer with the worlds "next year in Jerusalem".
Moreover, under Israeli administration anyone can go to Israel and experience what's there. They welcome it, good tourism. There is a stable democratic government that protects the rights of religious minorities, something not found in ANY Arab nation sans Tunisia. Find a Muslim nation that doesn't stigmatize those of other faiths. I'll wait.
Oh, and the funniest thing about all the Arab refugees. Just as many Jews were kicked out of Arab lands during the partition. Booted out by Muslim governments with little more that the clothes on their backs. Where did they go? Are they in refugee camps? No, they were welcomed to Israel with open arms and their descendants live there still.
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Perhaps we can discuss Jerusalem privately, but not right now. I'm leaving work. I'll catch you later.