Post by: invflatspin on August 21, 2018, 02:45:56 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/21/mollie-tibbetts-murder-suspect-idd-as-cristhian-rivera-24-living-in-us-illegally.html
Illegal alien arrested for the murder of young IN girl which garnered a huge media presence.
edit; CNN is covering it. But - they call him an 'undocumented immigrant'. Jeez, what a horrible mess.
Post by: nddons on August 21, 2018, 03:00:28 PM
Iowa is more purple than you would think, and the progressives always push their agenda anywhere they go.
I predict a re-evaluation and Trump-led attack on these sanctuaries.
Post by: Rush on August 21, 2018, 03:52:26 PM
Post by: Number7 on August 21, 2018, 04:36:21 PM
Poor girl pulled out her cell phone and tried to get help. Why any woman goes jogging without a gun is beyond me. That scumbag piece of shit should have been killed by her on the spot.
That POS should have been in an ugly, terrible, Mexican jail where he belonged.
Now he belongs on death row.
Post by: Lucifer on August 21, 2018, 05:58:22 PM
Post by: Jim Logajan on August 21, 2018, 06:45:18 PM
Y’all do a Google search on the keywords “black women missing in chicago” and report on the number of articles that appeared on national MSM about any of the missing women. Only seems to have been reported by local media. Think VP Pence will make any comment like he did on this case?
Not surprising to see a couple of the usual Spinners here seeing only what they want to see and disregard the rest.
Post by: Lucifer on August 21, 2018, 07:04:32 PM
Why is this case even being followed on national news?
Y’all do a Google search on the keywords “black women missing in chicago” and report on the number of articles that appeared on national MSM about any of the missing women. Only seems to have been reported by local media. Think VP Pence will make any comment like he did on this case?
Not surprising to see a couple of the usual Spinners here seeing only what they want to see and disregard the rest.
I will guarantee this, had the MSM known that Ms. Tibbett's killer was an illegal alien, this story would have never made it into the national media.
Post by: Lucifer on August 21, 2018, 07:25:03 PM
Unreal.
Post by: Little Joe on August 21, 2018, 07:36:51 PM
Why is this case even being followed on national news?Even though you have a point, this is an obvious attempt to make yourself feel better than the rest of us through your political correctness.
Y’all do a Google search on the keywords “black women missing in chicago” and report on the number of articles that appeared on national MSM about any of the missing women. Only seems to have been reported by local media. Think VP Pence will make any comment like he did on this case?
Not surprising to see a couple of the usual Spinners here seeing only what they want to see and disregard the rest.
Why did you have to bring up missing black girls. In 2017, there were 387,104 missing white girls and 219,484 missing black girls. So our question should have been why all the coverage of Mollie. Period. Why did she get so much coverage when so many other girls (and men and children), both black and white go missing all the time.
Post by: Number7 on August 21, 2018, 07:37:07 PM
Why is this case even being followed on national news?
Y’all do a Google search on the keywords “black women missing in chicago” and report on the number of articles that appeared on national MSM about any of the missing women. Only seems to have been reported by local media. Think VP Pence will make any comment like he did on this case?
Not surprising to see a couple of the usual Spinners here seeing only what they want to see and disregard the rest.
Playing for the DNC tonight I see.
Good use of the pathetic race card and pretending there is some kind of linkage to your asinine bullshit.
Congrats. You wasted thirty seconds of our lives pounding liberal bullshit.
Post by: Jim Logajan on August 21, 2018, 08:34:48 PM
Even though you have a point, this is an obvious attempt to make yourself feel better than the rest of us through your political correctness.
So I have a point, but in my attempt to make it I come across as appearing to be better than than the rest of you. If I didn’t post at all I would be unable to make my point, but I’d not come across as being better than the rest of you. Perhaps you can suggest a way for me to make my point known without coming across as “better than the rest of us.” (Without colluding with the Russians.)
Quote
Why did you have to bring up missing black girls. In 2017, there were 387,104 missing white girls and 219,484 missing black girls. So our question should have been why all the coverage of Mollie. Period. Why did she get so much coverage when so many other girls (and men and children), both black and white go missing all the time.
Since blacks make up 13% of the population, the number of missing black girls is much larger than it should be.
My take: When a black or hispanic family goes to the news media to get the word out on a missing member, it doesn’t go national as often as for whites because of subconcious victim racial bias in the national MSM. Victim is the wrong race to evince sympathy. But the same MSM applies conscious bias when is comes to perps. They operate on the premise that reporting on perps of the wrong race reinforces racial sterotypes, so they avoid doing it.
So the progressive MSM is racist in ways and modes that contravene their claimed goals.
Post by: Jim Logajan on August 21, 2018, 08:47:47 PM
Playing for the DNC tonight I see.
Good use of the pathetic race card and pretending there is some kind of linkage to your asinine bullshit.
Congrats. You wasted thirty seconds of our lives pounding liberal bullshit.
Nevermind the irrelevant insults; I’d like to know your answer to this simple question:
Do you believe that there are a larger percentage of rapists and murderers among illegal aliens than among legal residents?
Post by: invflatspin on August 21, 2018, 09:16:11 PM
There is a clear bias towards reporting on white tragedies over black and it is institutional. Consider that the majority of the spending public are still white middle class people. Those who wish to attract the greatest audience to a story will generally gravitate to one that will garner the greatest coverage. This is the financial institutionalism of the media, and it's been around for ever. Given the political bent of the MSM, I kind of doubt there is another more sinister bias at work, against minorities tragic circumstance. I say this because I see constant reminders of reported malfeasance by whites in the news, where we know that minorities and specifically illegal aliens make up a larger than per capita percent of crimes.
There were two black teens recently murdered in S Chicago. Their bodies had been in a field for several days before they were discovered. It barely made any big media attention, and the one story I saw was not followed up. It is just as tragic for those families as this girl's, but the fact it was a black victim, and it was in a tough part of a tough town, we become de-sensitized and accepting of that failure of society. But - when it could easily be one of OUR kids, that hits home, and lets face it, sells more soap, and Chevy's and boxed cereal. Because - that's what the news organizations are in business to do, is sell, sell, sell.
Post by: Number7 on August 22, 2018, 05:05:09 AM
Nevermind the irrelevant insults; I’d like to know your answer to this simple question:
Do you believe that there are a larger percentage of rapists and murderers among illegal aliens than among legal residents?
I couldn’t care less about the answer to your racist, dog whistle question.
By definition that fucking illegal shouldn’t have been in the country and wouldn’t have had the opportunity to kidnap rape and murder an American citizen. If you think that's racist, then you are the bigot, not me.
If you pansies would stop pretending that there is something noble about criminals as long as they are illegal aliens, we could start kicking their criminal asses back to their third world shit hole where they can be dealt with by their own country, instead of abusing American citizens.
Post by: Rush on August 22, 2018, 05:43:39 AM
Nevermind the irrelevant insults; I’d like to know your answer to this simple question:
Do you believe that there are a larger percentage of rapists and murderers among illegal aliens than among legal residents?
Without trying to google anything here pre-coffee I don't believe one way or the other right now but I say that even if there were a lower percentage of rapists and murderers among illegals there is still every bit much justification for keeping them out. I've never liked the assertion that criminality is the biggest reason we need to build a wall anyway. It's not.
Post by: Little Joe on August 22, 2018, 06:31:49 AM
We could lower the overall crime rate if we deported all illegal aliens. It doesn't matter whether natural citizens commit more crimes or not. Deporting Natural citizens just isn't an option, so we punish those that commit a crime.
Post by: invflatspin on August 22, 2018, 09:33:00 AM
Build the wall, and close our immigration system for everyone. We have enough of all genders, colors, religions, and nationalities already. I've had it with the rest of the world wanting to come here. Stay and fix your own country if you like the US so much the sincerest form of flattery is to copy us.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/22/feds-man-charged-in-minnesota-stabbing-was-in-us-illegally.html
Post by: Anthony on August 22, 2018, 09:58:55 AM
Post by: Little Joe on August 22, 2018, 10:19:30 AM
And here we go again.I wouldn't go that far, but I would definitely seal off all illegal entry and deport all existing illegal aliens. I would also modify the legal immigration policy to raise the standards for those coming in, and then make it easier, more straightforward and faster. Professionals and those with skills get accepted, unless they have criminal histories. Temporary visas can be arranged for necessary manual labor, but when the visa is up, they go home. Overstaying a visa would be a Federal crime subject to immediate deportation with no ability to return.
Build the wall, and close our immigration system for everyone. We have enough of all genders, colors, religions, and nationalities already. I've had it with the rest of the world wanting to come here. Stay and fix your own country if you like the US so much the sincerest form of flattery is to copy us.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/22/feds-man-charged-in-minnesota-stabbing-was-in-us-illegally.html
Post by: jb1842 on August 22, 2018, 10:50:53 AM
Post by: invflatspin on August 22, 2018, 11:08:25 AM
I wouldn't go that far, but I would definitely seal off all illegal entry and deport all existing illegal aliens. I would also modify the legal immigration policy to raise the standards for those coming in, and then make it easier, more straightforward and faster. Professionals and those with skills get accepted, unless they have criminal histories. Temporary visas can be arranged for necessary manual labor, but when the visa is up, they go home. Overstaying a visa would be a Federal crime subject to immediate deportation with no ability to return.
Ok, I'm easy. Anyone with a Master deg in an eng/science/math from a recognized university can apply. Lawyers - oh hell no. Politicians, no. Everyone else - stay home. Works for me.
Post by: jb1842 on August 22, 2018, 01:16:12 PM
Of course the news has to steer away from the suspect and go after politics.
Post by: nddons on August 22, 2018, 02:29:38 PM
One fix is to change the Constitution. If you are here illegally, your children don't get citizenship at birth.I’m good with that.
Post by: Anthony on August 22, 2018, 03:22:56 PM
I’m good with that.
Me too. This anchor baby crap needs to stop.
Post by: Jim Logajan on August 22, 2018, 04:19:44 PM
I'm getting the feeling that Jim thinks crime is ok, as long as the criminal is a minority and the majority commits more crimes, or a higher percentage of crimes, or whatever other excuse he can come up with.
Excuse me sir, but how many times have you posted here with outrage about news stories (that happen daily) on rapes and murders committed by citizens on citizens? I’ll tell you: it would NOT have made it to the Spin Zone so you don’t.
Quote
We could lower the overall crime rate if we deported all illegal aliens. It doesn't matter whether natural citizens commit more crimes or not. Deporting Natural citizens just isn't an option, so we punish those that commit a crime.
Wait, how about stripping the citizenship of speeders and people who illegally double-park and deport them to a lunar penal colony? Those are violations that endanger others even more than crossing some border.
Post by: Jim Logajan on August 22, 2018, 04:28:35 PM
Without trying to google anything here pre-coffee I don't believe one way or the other right now but I say that even if there were a lower percentage of rapists and murderers among illegals there is still every bit much justification for keeping them out. I've never liked the assertion that criminality is the biggest reason we need to build a wall anyway. It's not.
You’ve probably mentioned it here before but I’ve missed it - what is your biggest reason to build a wall?
Post by: invflatspin on August 22, 2018, 05:09:38 PM
Wait, how about stripping the citizenship of speeders and people who illegally double-park and deport them to a lunar penal colony? Those are violations that endanger others even more than crossing some border.
Now you're just being obtuse.
If you have no understanding or maybe acceptance of sovereignty, I don't think there's any basis for further discussion. The US is a country, like Spain, China, and Swaziland. Affording the US less intl standards than those nations puts one in a pretty weird place.
Post by: Rush on August 22, 2018, 05:25:00 PM
You’ve probably mentioned it here before but I’ve missed it - what is your biggest reason to build a wall?
The biggest reason to build a wall and the only reason we need, is to enforce the fact that we are a country, period.
The human race, like many species, is territorial. Failure to control who enters our land is failure to secure our territory and that is failure to maintain our existence as a country.
Post by: Number7 on August 22, 2018, 05:32:32 PM
Excuse me sir, but how many times have you posted here with outrage about news stories (that happen daily) on rapes and murders committed by citizens on citizens? I’ll tell you: it would NOT have made it to the Spin Zone so you don’t.
Wait, how about stripping the citizenship of speeders and people who illegally double-park and deport them to a lunar penal colony? Those are violations that endanger others even more than crossing some border.
Playing the outraged liberal card already?
Haev you given up on facts and logic so fast?
Oh yeah. I forgot, liberals emote, they don't think.
Post by: asechrest on August 22, 2018, 08:18:50 PM
Playing the outraged liberal card already?
Haev you given up on facts and logic so fast?
Oh yeah. I forgot, liberals emote, they don't think.
When all you have is a hammer, everyone's a liberal.
Post by: invflatspin on August 22, 2018, 08:29:07 PM
When all you have is a hammer, everyone's a liberal.
Ok, I got it. But really, being disingenuous doesn't work when the rest of the audience knows the truth. Borders are what every nation on earth has. The US southern border is so porous that it's been a joke for decades. We have literally millions of illegals in this nation, some of whom do serious damage here. The wall is not the only solution, but it is the least worst of the alternatives. Aside from - you know, anarchy.
Post by: asechrest on August 22, 2018, 09:17:40 PM
Ok, I got it. But really, being disingenuous doesn't work when the rest of the audience knows the truth. Borders are what every nation on earth has. The US southern border is so porous that it's been a joke for decades. We have literally millions of illegals in this nation, some of whom do serious damage here. The wall is not the only solution, but it is the least worst of the alternatives. Aside from - you know, anarchy.
I know my comment seemed like a one-off shot, but there is a point in there. Number7 shuts down dialogue by proclaiming liberalism against all who don't toe his own line. I'll never forget Rich from the POA forums giving what he thought was a genuine argument for open borders from a libertarian perspective. And he is certainly no liberal. I wish the Spin Zone was archived so I could dig it back up and we could hash it out.
I don't happen to agree with an open borders concept. So I guess the only box I fit in is ultra conservative. Or so says Number7.
I don't have a ton of time to commit to responses here lately, but I still follow along.
Post by: Number7 on August 23, 2018, 04:16:26 AM
Post by: Little Joe on August 23, 2018, 04:28:57 AM
When all you have is a hammer, everyone's a liberal.When someone acts like a liberal, all you need is a hammer.
Post by: Anthony on August 23, 2018, 04:35:20 AM
Post by: Number7 on August 23, 2018, 05:47:03 AM
I know my comment seemed like a one-off shot, but there is a point in there. Number7 shuts down dialogue by proclaiming liberalism against all who don't toe his own line. I'll never forget Rich from the POA forums giving what he thought was a genuine argument for open borders from a libertarian perspective. And he is certainly no liberal. I wish the Spin Zone was archived so I could dig it back up and we could hash it out.
I don't happen to agree with an open borders concept. So I guess the only box I fit in is ultra conservative. Or so says Number7.
I don't have a ton of time to commit to responses here lately, but I still follow along.
I think that you meant to write that once I took away the never ending liberal mantra when I blew the racism accusation out of the water, there was nowhere else to go but to whine like a pussy and pretend to have your little feelings hurt.
Post by: invflatspin on August 23, 2018, 06:21:56 AM
I know my comment seemed like a one-off shot, but there is a point in there. Number7 shuts down dialogue by proclaiming liberalism against all who don't toe his own line. I'll never forget Rich from the POA forums giving what he thought was a genuine argument for open borders from a libertarian perspective. And he is certainly no liberal. I wish the Spin Zone was archived so I could dig it back up and we could hash it out.
I don't happen to agree with an open borders concept. So I guess the only box I fit in is ultra conservative. Or so says Number7.
I don't have a ton of time to commit to responses here lately, but I still follow along.
Well, like I said - I got it because I realize there are a broad spectrum of positions on immigration. Border control, or immigration are one of those things that does not lend itself well to broad spectrum philosophy. The debate by the nature of the choice boils down to a binary. For open borders, against open borders. There is also a pretty stark divide between liberalism and conservatism on this subject, and liberals have staked out the 'open borders' position to defend. If that is not your cup of tea, it only goes to show me that liberals have completely lost their sense of national pride and the idea of indivisible nations.
As for the libertarian creed on open borders, I've seen plenty of arguments. They all proceed from one giant glaring fault. The "right" to migrate. There is no such thing. It's a made-up concept in a world with fences, and armies, and personal ownership. Completely at odds with private property. The libertarian argument goes that anyone, anytime has some kind of right to just move on in to a space on the planet that one is not using and make themselves at home. Well - excuse the hell out of me, but if I find some libertarians squatting in my house when I get off work there will be a couple fewer libertarians to advance their weirdo 'right' to migrate into my personal space. Same goes for the open lands of the US. One of the most important laws we have in the US is the right to own, and defend personal property. Anything less, and I've already noted the road to anarchy.
Post by: Rush on August 23, 2018, 06:47:25 AM
I know my comment seemed like a one-off shot, but there is a point in there. Number7 shuts down dialogue by proclaiming liberalism against all who don't toe his own line. I'll never forget Rich from the POA forums giving what he thought was a genuine argument for open borders from a libertarian perspective. And he is certainly no liberal. I wish the Spin Zone was archived so I could dig it back up and we could hash it out.
I don't happen to agree with an open borders concept. So I guess the only box I fit in is ultra conservative. Or so says Number7.
I don't have a ton of time to commit to responses here lately, but I still follow along.
I'm a libertarian more than anything else and I understand the libertarian argument. I disagree with it. It's based on a utopian ideal and just like every utopian ideal it is an extremist position that doesn't work in the real world.
My position on immigration , like most rational people, is moderate. I am for legal immigration with standards. I am not for a closed, isolated society. That leads to terrible consequences. Neither am I for wide open borders which also leads to terrible consequences.
The left calls anyone who doesn't agree with wide open, uncontrolled borders xenophobic and racist. That's counterproductive, patently untrue, and is actually a tool used by the left to paint the right as an unalloyed "Face of Evil". They have brought this approach into full mainstream chant and thank your choice of God or gods many normal human beings in the Democrat party are saying, wait a minute, this insanity doesn't represent me. I'm walking away.
The reverse extreme, true xenophobic racist people who advocate a completely closed society, without even legal immigration, is very rare in the U.S. at this moment, existing only in a few fanatic fringe groups. There is virtually zero exposure of such people's ideas in any media, mainstream or not. On the contrary, it is the left who has infiltrated their extremist position into the open with such established mainstream politicians as Hilary Clinton advocating for no borders at all.
We must get control of our borders or we are doomed sooner rather than later. The only question is what set of standards to use for allowing legal immigration. That should be the issue we argue about, not whether or not to stop the flow of illegals. But the far left has got us focused on the wrong issue and is trying to block all efforts to stop that flow and we all know why: votes.
Post by: Number7 on August 23, 2018, 07:01:12 AM
Current, modern "liberal" ideology, what I, and many call Progressive is absolutely ridiculous by any practical, and pragmatic standards. It is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to human conduct on every level.
Our resident leftists had no other path to shut down discussion of the ILLEGAL alien who MURDERED an American citizen, when they should never have been in the country. The argument is not merit based, it's emotionally based and without logic, reason, or truth behind their rants there was no alternative but to trot out the tired, stupid, racist, racism card.
Then when that failed somiserably, the only other alternative was to fall back and claim their whittle feewings was hurted.
Post by: nddons on August 23, 2018, 07:23:31 AM
I know my comment seemed like a one-off shot, but there is a point in there. Number7 shuts down dialogue by proclaiming liberalism against all who don't toe his own line. I'll never forget Rich from the POA forums giving what he thought was a genuine argument for open borders from a libertarian perspective. And he is certainly no liberal. I wish the Spin Zone was archived so I could dig it back up and we could hash it out.Welcome to the team.
I don't happen to agree with an open borders concept. So I guess the only box I fit in is ultra conservative. Or so says Number7.
I don't have a ton of time to commit to responses here lately, but I still follow along.
. Now take a seat on the bench. 
Post by: invflatspin on August 23, 2018, 07:32:13 AM
The reverse extreme, true xenophobic racist people who advocate a completely closed society, without even legal immigration, is very rare in the U.S. at this moment, existing only in a few fanatic fringe groups.
I believe I've been called a xenophobe and a racist and the fringe element because I'm in favor of zero immigration. By zero immigration I mean no blacks, browns, whites, males, females, rich, poor, christian, muslim, buddhist, atheist, etc - ad infinitum. My position on immigration is that no one of ANY protected class may come in. I'm not sure how that squares with xenophobia(I am not afraid of immigrants/other cultures) or racism, as I've made clear I hate everyone quite equally(tongue firmly in cheek).
My desire to keep others out is actually rather multi-cultural. We have the petri dish example right here between the US and Mexico. Let us ponder why Mexico has not raised itself from semi-third world status after nearly 200 years of independence(much like the US, hmmm). Is it due in part that Mexico has a ready-made escape means for those seeking better economic conditions directly to the north? Suppose all those Mexicans who wanted a better life were told that immigration to the north was not possible. It is a closed place, and you may(must) not enter, but resolve your own issues with your own govt and culture. There is a theory that we in the US get the people from Mexico that want to escape poverty, and govt intervention. We are the relief valve which allows people who want real change in Mexican policy to escape through the least-worst way, by getting out of there, and into here.
Believe it or don't but for the early years after independence, the US and Mexico were on nearly identical economic and political paths. There are great historical families like the Vanderbilt's in Mexican history. Just like the US. But - along the way, something happened down there, and when things kept getting worse and worse, those who could leave began to leave. And where did they go? The US of course. So, my desire for a 'closed' society in the US is more in keeping with bringing up all the other boats out on the world stage to the same level as the US, but do it by forcing the citizens to invest in their own culture, policy, and make change in their own nation that suits the benefit of the indigenous people. Why would they struggle to improve their economy and policy when they can escape to the US?
How this is equated to xenophobia or racism I don't understand. But I've been called worse, so I'm not outraged. As for 'closed' I'm all for a system of passports, visas, visiting, vacationing, training, schooling, intl economic exchange, political cooperation between nations. It's only good that one remain economically/culturally/politically friendly to ones neighbors. But - like the fish, after about 3 weeks, y'all gotta head home. Or if one is here on a school or political visit - once you are done with your business, pack your bags, cuz you are leaving, and going back to spread the greatness of the US to your own folk. Thanks for playing.
Post by: Becky (My pronouns are Assigned/By/God) on August 23, 2018, 08:00:12 AM
When we stop looking at the harm happening, because we’re so busy virtue signalling and vote farming, the harm explodes exponentially. How many murders by illegals in the US 50 years ago? How many now?
Training your citizenry to ignore threats (such as men standing around in women’s restrooms) doesn’t have good evolutionary outcomes.
Open borders equals globalism, the last bastion of utopian dreams, which HRC clearly states she wanted. Hammers and nails aside, the thickest person can see that rivers without borders are swamps. And so goes globalism. A few elite, a lot of sufferers, and no exceptionalism.
Post by: Number7 on August 23, 2018, 08:19:47 AM
Post by: nddons on August 23, 2018, 08:22:15 AM
^^^Well, yes. At some point, immigrants become invaders. Ask Europe how they’re improved by the Muslims who keep pouring in.^^^^This^^^^
When we stop looking at the harm happening, because we’re so busy virtue signalling and vote farming, the harm explodes exponentially. How many murders by illegals in the US 50 years ago? How many now?
Training your citizenry to ignore threats (such as men standing around in women’s restrooms) doesn’t have good evolutionary outcomes.
Open borders equals globalism, the last bastion of utopian dreams, which HRC clearly states she wanted. Hammers and nails aside, the thickest person can see that rivers without borders are swamps. And so goes globalism. A few elite, a lot of sufferers, and no exceptionalism.
Post by: Anthony on August 23, 2018, 09:41:32 AM
^^^^This^^^^Yes, Becky NAILED it!
Post by: invflatspin on August 23, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
^^^Well, yes. At some point, immigrants become invaders. Ask Europe how they’re improved by the Muslims who keep pouring in.
When we stop looking at the harm happening, because we’re so busy virtue signalling and vote farming, the harm explodes exponentially. How many murders by illegals in the US 50 years ago? How many now?
Training your citizenry to ignore threats (such as men standing around in women’s restrooms) doesn’t have good evolutionary outcomes.
Open borders equals globalism, the last bastion of utopian dreams, which HRC clearly states she wanted. Hammers and nails aside, the thickest person can see that rivers without borders are swamps. And so goes globalism. A few elite, a lot of sufferers, and no exceptionalism.
Yup, we are at least on the same wavelength, although I'm likely on a different phase than most people. I've even decided to bend my rigidity to allow those with advanced degrees in the sciences to come and stay(regardless of race, religion, gender, etc).
However, I will point out that it's a matter of perspective too. If we were to go back more than 50 years, to about the time the Europeans came to America, and put ourselves in the place of the natives on this continent, we were the invaders(unless one is a native Amer here), and the 'indians' really had no chance. The natives here were pretty brutal to each other, and to other tribes. But - our uber-tribe fixed them all, to the detriment of their society and replaced it with our own. Were we more successful? Yes. Have we advanced culture, and civilization far beyond what the Amer natives would have done? Yes. From their perspective though, we stole their way of life, and culture and replaced it with our own. Now, we have the means and motive to restrict others from doing that to us. Makes for some interesting twists of logic for philosophers.
Post by: Rush on August 23, 2018, 11:18:17 AM
I believe I've been called a xenophobe and a racist and the fringe element because I'm in favor of zero immigration. By zero immigration I mean no blacks, browns, whites, males, females, rich, poor, christian, muslim, buddhist, atheist, etc - ad infinitum. My position on immigration is that no one of ANY protected class may come in. I'm not sure how that squares with xenophobia(I am not afraid of immigrants/other cultures) or racism, as I've made clear I hate everyone quite equally(tongue firmly in cheek).
My desire to keep others out is actually rather multi-cultural. We have the petri dish example right here between the US and Mexico. Let us ponder why Mexico has not raised itself from semi-third world status after nearly 200 years of independence(much like the US, hmmm). Is it due in part that Mexico has a ready-made escape means for those seeking better economic conditions directly to the north? Suppose all those Mexicans who wanted a better life were told that immigration to the north was not possible. It is a closed place, and you may(must) not enter, but resolve your own issues with your own govt and culture. There is a theory that we in the US get the people from Mexico that want to escape poverty, and govt intervention. We are the relief valve which allows people who want real change in Mexican policy to escape through the least-worst way, by getting out of there, and into here.
Believe it or don't but for the early years after independence, the US and Mexico were on nearly identical economic and political paths. There are great historical families like the Vanderbilt's in Mexican history. Just like the US. But - along the way, something happened down there, and when things kept getting worse and worse, those who could leave began to leave. And where did they go? The US of course. So, my desire for a 'closed' society in the US is more in keeping with bringing up all the other boats out on the world stage to the same level as the US, but do it by forcing the citizens to invest in their own culture, policy, and make change in their own nation that suits the benefit of the indigenous people. Why would they struggle to improve their economy and policy when they can escape to the US?
How this is equated to xenophobia or racism I don't understand. But I've been called worse, so I'm not outraged. As for 'closed' I'm all for a system of passports, visas, visiting, vacationing, training, schooling, intl economic exchange, political cooperation between nations. It's only good that one remain economically/culturally/politically friendly to ones neighbors. But - like the fish, after about 3 weeks, y'all gotta head home. Or if one is here on a school or political visit - once you are done with your business, pack your bags, cuz you are leaving, and going back to spread the greatness of the US to your own folk. Thanks for playing.
I'm mostly in agreement with this except instead of zero immigration I would allow carefully chosen immigrants. I would not call you xenophobic or racist just because you believe in zero immigration. I would do so only if you discriminated based on skin color, not other standards, such as IQ which I think is a perfectly reasonable standard, among others. But the left will call me RACIST for saying that even though I would welcome Nigerians, Hispanics and Scandinavians alike.
In fact I did discriminate in the choice of a husband. He had to already speak English and had to have an IQ well above mentally challenged. Does that make me racist? Because it made me statistically less likely to choose certain races that score lower IQ on average? I guess the left thinks so. But the biggest factor in my choice of husband was that our value systems are largely aligned.
Inviting immigrants should be no different. Why should we accept immigrants who do not share our values, who want to live on our land but reject our Constitution and our culture? And why accept immigrants who will burden our entitlement system because they can't or won't be productive, or who are criminally dangerous? There's nothing morally wrong with wanting to limit who comes in to a certain level of quality.
Like I said before, the argument should be about what those standards are, not about having a protected border. I guess the difference between you and I is you want no door at all and I would favor a door with very careful scrutiny and acceptance standards but a very fast and efficient processing of the accepted applicants. I'm not optimistic that this country would be able to come to agreement on those standards though.
But right now there are none, and that is unacceptable. If the fastest way to stopping the flood is to shut immigration down completely I'll go along with you before I'd leave things as they are now. But I think zero in the long run would not be good for the country.
While I previewed this I saw your new post that you would allow advanced STEM degrees. Maybe we are on the same page, that's along the lines of rigorous standards I would assert.
Post by: invflatspin on August 23, 2018, 11:33:24 AM
http://dailycaller.com/2018/08/23/report-foreigners-rape-sweden/
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on August 24, 2018, 04:57:47 AM
Post by: Anthony on August 24, 2018, 05:24:59 AM
Do you all understand that this is a fight we will lose regardless. We do not reproduce at a rate to win this battle.
We need to win the battle of VALUES, not skin color. American values.
Post by: invflatspin on August 24, 2018, 07:37:59 AM
But yes, the US as a whole is not popping out kids like China and India, and various other lesser desirable shitholes. EU has the same problem.
Post by: invflatspin on August 24, 2018, 10:39:31 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/23/attorney-for-mollie-tibbetts-suspected-killer-cristhian-rivera-fights-back.html
His client being an illegal alien is media rhetoric. Hope he does that in his opening remarks to a1st deg murder jury.
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on August 24, 2018, 03:44:08 PM
We need to win the battle of VALUES, not skin color. American values.How are you going to win when the Muslims reproduce like rabbits?
Post by: Lucifer on August 24, 2018, 03:51:46 PM
How are you going to win when the Muslims reproduce like rabbits?
Post by: Number7 on August 24, 2018, 04:03:07 PM
How are you going to win when the Muslims reproduce like rabbits?
Stop paying them any kind of public welfare.
Stop giving aide to muslim countries.
Stop allowing chain migration.
Close the border and let the fucking democrats cry like the pussies they have become.
Post by: invflatspin on August 24, 2018, 07:32:34 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-fundraiser-tied-land-where-iowa-murder-suspect-204700619--politics.html
The killer lived on land owned by a republican fundraiser. Obviously that means the republicans are at fault and accessory to the murder.
Absolutely incredible.
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on August 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
Yahoo nails it again.The husband or whoever run the dairy farm should have used e-verify and checked on the employees and cut the guy loose a long time ago.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-fundraiser-tied-land-where-iowa-murder-suspect-204700619--politics.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-fundraiser-tied-land-where-iowa-murder-suspect-204700619--politics.html)
The killer lived on land owned by a republican fundraiser. Obviously that means the republicans are at fault and accessory to the murder.
Absolutely incredible.