PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: invflatspin on October 17, 2018, 10:02:43 AM
-
https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudis-expected-admit-khashoggi-killed-151115147.html
Man, these guys think we are idiots. 'Accidental death during interrogation'. What a load of crap. This was an outright murder. I'm betting the new prince over there with his hands on the levers is all up in this deal. Not sure what the US should do, but we can't condone murder of a US journalist, no matter if he's a douche or not.
-
I am so far not pleased with how Trump is playing it. Or at least I'm not pleased with how he's publicly playing it, which as we know may be different than how he's privately playing it.
http://reason.com/archives/2018/10/16/the-saudis-need-us-not-the-other-way-aro
-
Trump is actually just being consistent, he ALWAYS pushes wanting to have info before making decisions/statements about 'facts'.
If it comes out the Crown Prince is behind this there will be hell to pay, somehow.
If the Saud family wants to go to economic war this is the wrong President to do that with.
It is just as possible that this was actually an interrogation gone wrong as deliberate murder, but we don't actually know anything yet.
Waiting to pass judgement is the right thing to do, IMO.
'Gimp
-
He was dismembered while still alive by a pathologist who could do an autopsy in 7 minutes. Lovely.
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/10/17/audio-reveals-details-of-jamal-khashoggis-torture-decapitation-report/amp/
-
well boys, the way I think it will play out may not be nice but may be worth the value the Saud has for its own citizens. He went into a Saudi facility, and they took exception to his reporting on the royals. Things got quickly out of hand, and out came the long knife.
In Thailand one can go to prison for up to 20 years for disrespecting the royal family. I don't know the rules on such in the Kingdom of Saud, but it sure could be as strict or worse. We know the guy was very critical of the family in public.
-
Trump is actually just being consistent, he ALWAYS pushes wanting to have info before making decisions/statements about 'facts'.
If it comes out the Crown Prince is behind this there will be hell to pay, somehow.
If the Saud family wants to go to economic war this is the wrong President to do that with.
It is just as possible that this was actually an interrogation gone wrong as deliberate murder, but we don't actually know anything yet.
Waiting to pass judgement is the right thing to do, IMO.
'Gimp
I agree completely. And if the Saudi’s want to play the oil game like back when OPEC actually mattered, I could see Trump exponentially increasing our drilling and fracking to drive down oil prices so the Saudis take it in the shorts just for threatening us.
-
It's the big weapons sale that is going to be a thorn. Trump was right that if we don't sell them F16s and tanks and other shit they are just going to buy from Russia or China. Of course, it'll be second rate equipment, but decent enough for the likes of the ME aggressors. I know Saud would prefer US built hardware as it's the best out there, and they can afford the best, but they could get other stuff too. That would certainly hurt LM and Boeing.
-
The Saudis killed the wrong journalist. They should start with CNN, then move to NBC, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, NYT, etc.
-
I see no reason to be concerned about Saudi killing Saudi. It’s a practice that should probably be encouraged.
-
Will be very interesting to see if the Turk's actually reveal their claimed audio/video 'proof' since in doing so they will effectively be openly admitting not only that they spy on consulates, but basically showing how and to what extent as well, which I think is quite a step for killing one guy.
'Gimp
-
I see no reason to be concerned about Saudi killing Saudi. It’s a practice that should probably be encouraged.
I'm not going to disagree(Khashoggi is a Saudi citizen), but if that is true, it should be a simple thing for the Saudi family to step up and say 'Khashoggi was tried, and found guilty of sedition, and insult to the royal family. The punishment assigned was death, and the sentence was carried out on Saudi soil, at the Turkish consulate on 2 Oct 2018.'
They did not do that. So far, all we've heard from the royals over there is denial. Not a river in Africa(been dying to work that in).
-
The Saudi Crown Prince is turning into the worst kind of autocrat. But I suspect we'll ignore his excesses, just like we've been ignoring the excesses of the Saudis for many many years. Governments conservative and liberal, read and blue. They all kowtow to the Saudis.
-
The Saudi Crown Prince is turning into the worst kind of autocrat. But I suspect we'll ignore his excesses, just like we've been ignoring the excesses of the Saudis for many many years. Governments conservative and liberal, read and blue. They all kowtow to the Saudis.
Actually, they all kowtow to Saudi oil and money.
Watch. If Trump takes serious action, liberals will complain that we are not the world police and shouldn't involve ourselves in their business. Just like they always use the excuse "you wouldn't want them meddling in our internal affairs, would you?"
But if he does nothing, they will call him week and subservient to them. He won't escape no matter what he does. So he will do what he thinks is best for America. If that involves turning a blind eye to preserve a huge weapons sale that will benefit American industry and help strengthen their support against Iran, then so be it.
-
The new guy was supposed to be progressive and more open. Women driving, reducing the power of the muslim theocrats in govt, etc. Apparently he does take well to any criticism. The op-ed writer has been quite critical of the regime, but I admit to not reading any of his work.
-
Actually, they all kowtow to Saudi oil and money.
Watch. If Trump takes serious action, liberals will complain that we are not the world police and shouldn't involve ourselves in their business. Just like they always use the excuse "you wouldn't want them meddling in our internal affairs, would you?"
But if he does nothing, they will call him week and subservient to them. He won't escape no matter what he does. So he will do what he thinks is best for America. If that involves turning a blind eye to preserve a huge weapons sale that will benefit American industry and help strengthen their support against Iran, then so be it.
Well, he/we shouldn’t do anything. It isn’t our business. We are not or should not be the world policeman. Presidents of both parties have meddled far too much in the affairs of other countries. In the process they have spent trillions of dollars, created more enemies for the US, and actually done more to destabilize the world than stabilize it. While I do not advocate complete isolationism, I do think we need to stay home more and keep our guns holstered.
-
Well, he/we shouldn’t do anything. It isn’t our business. We are not or should not be the world policeman. Presidents of both parties have meddled far too much in the affairs of other countries. In the process they have spent trillions of dollars, created more enemies for the US, and actually done more to destabilize the world than stabilize it. While I do not advocate complete isolationism, I do think we need to stay home more and keep our guns holstered.
I agree completely. I was just pointing out the inevitable hypocrisy of the opposition.
-
Well, he/we shouldn’t do anything. It isn’t our business. We are not or should not be the world policeman. Presidents of both parties have meddled far too much in the affairs of other countries. In the process they have spent trillions of dollars, created more enemies for the US, and actually done more to destabilize the world than stabilize it. While I do not advocate complete isolationism, I do think we need to stay home more and keep our guns holstered.
I agree with this but I also see the point of selling them hardware because 1) we get jobs making it and 2) if we don't they'll get it from our adversaries. I don't see how letting Russia or China have the manufacturing jobs and money instead of us is a good thing.
I think that above all, we need to become oil and energy independent so these middle eastern oil producers don't have that over our heads. Again, keep the jobs and money for oil inside our own economy is the right thing to do.
Trade is one thing, but giving money to other nations is another thing entirely. And I agree that our meddling in nations has been disastrous at times, not always, but at times.
-
It's the big weapons sale that is going to be a thorn. Trump was right that if we don't sell them F16s and tanks and other shit they are just going to buy from Russia or China. Of course, it'll be second rate equipment, but decent enough for the likes of the ME aggressors. I know Saud would prefer US built hardware as it's the best out there, and they can afford the best, but they could get other stuff too. That would certainly hurt LM and Boeing.
As the article asechrest posted noted, that's not likely to happen. They've bought not just our products, but bought into the systems that go with them. The training, the maintenance, the support, etc. That's not something you can just immediately switch away from. From the Reason article:
The Saudis, even under a gambler like the 33-year old bin Salman, would be unlikely to spark the ire of Congress and jeopardize their access to U.S. military hardware, training, and technology, particularly when Riyadh is currently fighting in the fourth year of a war in Yemen that, charitably put, is a stalemate. And while the Saudis could lessen their dependence on American equipment by switching to Russian and Chinese suppliers, such a transition would not happen overnight. It would require the kind of time Riyadh is unwilling to spend in the current threat environment.
-
I agree with this but I also see the point of selling them hardware because 1) we get jobs making it and 2) if we don't they'll get it from our adversaries. I don't see how letting Russia or China have the manufacturing jobs and money instead of us is a good thing.
I think that above all, we need to become oil and energy independent so these middle eastern oil producers don't have that over our heads. Again, keep the jobs and money for oil inside our own economy is the right thing to do.
Trade is one thing, but giving money to other nations is another thing entirely. And I agree that our meddling in nations has been disastrous at times, not always, but at times.
And if you are a liberal environmental activist, would you rather live next to an American factory or a Russian or Chinese factory?
Sell them weapons and let them blast each other to bits, as long as their check to us doesn't bounce.
-
The Saudis killed the wrong journalist. They should start with CNN, then move to NBC, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, NYT, etc.
I really hope this is a joke. Even if it is, it's a really poor one. The fact that people are getting comfortable calling for bad things to happen to people because they disagree is not only disgusting, it's disheartening. It's even worse when you're calling for it against fellow Americans.
-
Well, he/we shouldn’t do anything. It isn’t our business. We are not or should not be the world policeman. Presidents of both parties have meddled far too much in the affairs of other countries. In the process they have spent trillions of dollars, created more enemies for the US, and actually done more to destabilize the world than stabilize it. While I do not advocate complete isolationism, I do think we need to stay home more and keep our guns holstered.
This is not just as simple as classifying it as an internal Saudi issue, especially when they did it in another country. The issue is that it's hard to say that America is serious about advocating for democracy and free speech around the world and then turn a blind eye to what appears to be a brutal murder of a journalist because he spoke out against his government. Let's also not forget that he was an American green card holder.
-
As the article asechrest posted noted, that's not likely to happen. They've bought not just our products, but bought into the systems that go with them. The training, the maintenance, the support, etc. That's not something you can just immediately switch away from. From the Reason article:
Understood. But - look at it from the Chinese or Russian perspective, not from Saudi. How generous would China be right now to overtures from Saudi to cancel the US weapons program and take up the Chinese? I'm guessing that China would almost give away the hardware to get the support, munition, logistics, and materiel pipeline. If not free, then the price would be very attractive. The Russians may not be in the same situation, but they also would give serious concessions to displace the US in the kingdom. SA is and will be the major player in the ME for a long, long time. That kind of bilateral trade and agreement goes far beyond just buying camo and gray hardware. It would also displace a strategic US ally and give China leverage to the oil from there that they currently spend quite a bit on. Might be some strategic reasons beyond the weapons to make China very accommodating. Like the pusher says; 'first hit is free'.
-
This is not just as simple as classifying it as an internal Saudi issue, especially when they did it in another country. The issue is that it's hard to say that America is serious about advocating for democracy and free speech around the world and then turn a blind eye to what appears to be a brutal murder of a journalist because he spoke out against his government. Let's also not forget that he was an American green card holder.
An Embassy is considered to be sovereign territory of the represented country, so it was technically on Saudi territory.
But I wouldn't mind if Trump decided to thump them due to his American connection.
-
Understood. But - look at it from the Chinese or Russian perspective, not from Saudi. How generous would China be right now to overtures from Saudi to cancel the US weapons program and take up the Chinese? I'm guessing that China would almost give away the hardware to get the support, munition, logistics, and materiel pipeline. If not free, then the price would be very attractive. The Russians may not be in the same situation, but they also would give serious concessions to displace the US in the kingdom. SA is and will be the major player in the ME for a long, long time. That kind of bilateral trade and agreement goes far beyond just buying camo and gray hardware. It would also displace a strategic US ally and give China leverage to the oil from there that they currently spend quite a bit on. Might be some strategic reasons beyond the weapons to make China very accommodating. Like the pusher says; 'first hit is free'.
Russia is less likely to be successful in Saudi Arabia primarily because they have decided to support Iran, which Saudi Arabia opposes. The Iranians are supporting the Houthi rebels who the Saudis are fighting in Yemen. So, Russia is not likely to make it very far.
China would make more sense but I'm not yet convinced the Saudis would be willing to dump all U.S. equipment and support (which goes well beyond just military relations) and start supporting the Chinese.
-
An Embassy is considered to be sovereign territory of the represented country, so it was technically on Saudi territory.
But I wouldn't mind if Trump decided to thump them due to his American connection.
I'm well aware of that. The embassy is located inside of Turkey and that could very well disrupt relations between Saudi Arabia and Turkey (along with the U.S. and others). Saudis are less likely to visit Turkey if they know there's a chance they'll end up dead.
-
This is not just as simple as classifying it as an internal Saudi issue, especially when they did it in another country. The issue is that it's hard to say that America is serious about advocating for democracy and free speech around the world and then turn a blind eye to what appears to be a brutal murder of a journalist because he spoke out against his government. Let's also not forget that he was an American green card holder.
As to it happening in another country, that is the concern of that country, in this case Turkey. Still not our problem or concern. If the Turks want to pursue action, that’s up to them.
As to the fact he was a reporter speaking out against HIS government, I don’t give a fuck. Still does not concern me and if you weigh his death against the deaths of reporters and dissidents around the world especially in more powerful countries such as China and Russia, it becomes laughable that people are so concerned with what the Saudis did. Maybe we should take action against China and Russia then. LOL!!
As to his resident status in the US, also not an issue. Well except for the fact that he probably should never of even had that status due to his ties with bin laden and the muslim brotherhood.
So it is simply not our problem.
-
So it is simply not our problem.
Agreed.
-
Rush had a pretty good analysis today of the Saud situation.
-
Rush had a pretty good analysis today of the Saud situation.
Good read, thanks.
https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/10/18/khashoggi-is-lefts-latest-vehicle-to-tarnish-trump/amp/
-
I've noticed NONE of the democrat (communists) in government were in the slightest upset when illegal aliens MURDERED American citizens, but those same communists think we should all wet our pants about this one...
Typical hypocrisy from the fathers of hypocrisy.
-
things not going well for the SA crown prince.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/world/middleeast/erdogan-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
It would seem the Turks have been closely monitoring the consulate and may have some audio and may have some sigint showing direct intervention from the SA crown prince Salman.
Trump is growing increasingly unbelieving of the excuses coming from SA as well. The story keeps changing each time, and sacrificial goats are being sent up all around, but nothing leading to the royals -- yet. That may all change on Wed. Turkey is playing a game in hopes of some financial leverage. Not sure if it will work, but they are intimating they have the goods on the SA royals.
-
If it could get worse, it would.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-case-latest-updates-181010133542286.html
Four phone calls made to Mohammed bin Salman's office from the Saudi consulate the day Khashoggi was killed
Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb, a well-known travel companion of Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, also known as MBS, made four phone calls to the royal's office from the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul the day Khashoggi was killed there, a Turkish newspaper has reported.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Crown prince's bodyguard 'took part of Khashoggi's body'
Turkish officials believe that part of Khashoggi's body was taken out of Turkey by a well-known travel companion of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's bodyguards, according to a report by the Middle East Eye.
Maher Abdulaziz Mutrib is reported to have been seen carrying a large bag, which was not checked as he bypassed security checks through a VIP lounge at Istanbul's Ataturk airport.
The head - heading back to SA as a prize.
-
I'm having a problem seeing where any of this is in the interest of the US.
Two weeks ago hardly anyone knew who this guy was, or cared. He's not a diplomat.
KSA murders people, their own citizens and foreigners. Why now, and why this one individual are we the US trying to intervene?
Reminds me of the old saying about if you go swimming in the ocean, you are now a part of the food chain. Same with screwing around with the arabs on their turf.
-
I'm having a problem seeing where any of this is in the interest of the US.
Two weeks ago hardly anyone knew who this guy was, or cared. He's not a diplomat.
KSA murders people, their own citizens and foreigners. Why now, and why this one individual are we the US trying to intervene?
Reminds me of the old saying about if you go swimming in the ocean, you are now a part of the food chain. Same with screwing around with the arabs on their turf.
Guessing because he self-identified as a reporter.
-
Guessing because he self-identified as a reporter.
I wasn't aware they had diplomatic privileges.
-
I'm having a problem seeing where any of this is in the interest of the US.
Two weeks ago hardly anyone knew who this guy was, or cared. He's not a diplomat.
KSA murders people, their own citizens and foreigners. Why now, and why this one individual are we the US trying to intervene?
Reminds me of the old saying about if you go swimming in the ocean, you are now a part of the food chain. Same with screwing around with the arabs on their turf.
Are we trying to intervene? Far as I know, we've mainly been watching it unfold. But maybe I'm wrong.
Canada may be forced to withdraw from their arms deal with SA because of written regulations against selling arms to human rights violators. Does US have similar?
-
Are we trying to intervene? Far as I know, we've mainly been watching it unfold. But maybe I'm wrong.
Canada may be forced to withdraw from their arms deal with SA because of written regulations against selling arms to human rights violators. Does US have similar?
We have an election coming up.
If Trump "wimps out" and "let's them get away with it", Dems will have a field day.
On the other hand, if Trump takes any serious action, the Dems will have a field day showing what a loose cannon he is. So Trump has to walk a fine line here, and Trump isn't really much of a "fine line walker".
-
Are we trying to intervene? Far as I know, we've mainly been watching it unfold. But maybe I'm wrong.
Canada may be forced to withdraw from their arms deal with SA because of written regulations against selling arms to human rights violators. Does US have similar?
No. Turkey is calling the shots, SA is flailing in the wind, Canada did cancel their small $$$ arms sale to SA, Germany same, the US is for once taking a 'wait and see' what develops approach. Right now, the US is the one playing things right. Maybe it's by chance, but no decisions and no interference except our envoy is over there talking to people on the ground. We are attending the econ summit because we said we would before this blew up. Things may change with the US, but at this point it's just a media firestorm.