PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Jaybird180 on February 04, 2016, 12:23:24 PM
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-toyota-caught-racist-interest-rate-practices-article-1.2520118?cid=bitly (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-toyota-caught-racist-interest-rate-practices-article-1.2520118?cid=bitly)
"To be clear, this wasn't an aberration of some sort, but appears to be an industry standard."- S. King
"The hub has always been at the heart of capitalism in this country -- where the money is. Remember: before this country had a national currency or federally-backed paper money, enslaved Africans, livestock and land functioned as the actual money and credit system. Newborn children were seen as interest and one of the reasons that (1) child-bearing women were more valuable; and (2) all children of black women had to be born into slavery. Slavery existed and functioned just fine all over the world without racism. But capitalism in this country needed racism to clearly define the "money." Before money was green, it was Black." - H. Hodges
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Oh woe is me. Slavery existed? OMG, I need to go purge myself for something I never did, and something that ended in 1863. Please allow me to pay reparations, and feel really bad because I am white. Let's continue to divide society, and worry about something that we didn't do and ended a long, long time ago. Let's falsely expend energy and resources over something we can not do anything about anymore.
Duh.
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I thought Jaybird was just being stubborn and obstinate when I've spoken about a colorblind society - you know, kind of like M. L. King - but upon further review it appears there is entire subculture making the argument that whites who seek a colorblind society are a actually CAUSING racism, and are racist themselves for even suggesting that we seek a colorblind society.
We are truly fucked, and will never, ever unite as a nation. Congratulations, Jaybird.
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Are you guys saying Jaybird's link has something to do with slavery? Looks to me like it addresses something that happened within the last ten or so years. ???
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Are you guys saying Jaybird's link has something to do with slavery? Looks to me like it addresses something that happened within the last ten or so years. ???
I'm not, but it is a long-running theme around these parts when a racism de jour article is posted by Jaybird.
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It must really suck to live a life so consumed by fear and hatred that one could see an article like this where an actual injustice is actually discovered and actual amends are made and see that as tragic proof of inescapable, institutional racism.
Somebody broke the law, it appears to have been extraordinarily widespread although clearly not well known outside financial circles (which begs the question if there may have been more to it from an actuarial standpoint, but I digress), but once discovered, the system functioned, without bias, as it is supposed to.
Whether made by an administrative court judge or a jury, the system worked as it is supposed to, a crime was committed, discovered, tried and justice was served. This is exactly the kind of justice and benefit from the systems in place that we are constantly told does not exist for people of color.
This should be seen as a story that affirms 'and justice for all', not one that focuses on the acts of a few (albeit with widespread impact) and ascribes unknowable motives.
I feel pity for folks who live with such a negative and external focus.
'Gimp
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It must really suck to live a life so consumed by fear and hatred that one could see an article like this where an actual injustice is actually discovered and actual amends are made and see that as tragic proof of inescapable, institutional racism.
Somebody broke the law, it appears to have been extraordinarily widespread although clearly not well known outside financial circles (which begs the question if there may have been more to it from an actuarial standpoint, but I digress), but once discovered, the system functioned, without bias, as it is supposed to.
Whether made by an administrative court judge or a jury, the system worked as it is supposed to, a crime was committed, discovered, tried and justice was served. This is exactly the kind of justice and benefit from the systems in place that we are constantly told does not exist for people of color.
This should be seen as a story that affirms 'and justice for all', not one that focuses on the acts of a few (albeit with widespread impact) and ascribes unknowable motives.
I feel pity for folks who live with such a negative and external focus.
'Gimp
:yeahthat:
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Are you guys saying Jaybird's link has something to do with slavery? Looks to me like it addresses something that happened within the last ten or so years. ???
Without even reading Jaybirds' link (yet), his preamble was ALL ABOUT SLAVERY.
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I am waiting for Jaybird's condemnation of slavery going on RIGHT NOW in the middle east and Africa, much of it perpetrated in the name of Islam, rather than rehashing history from 200 years ago that has been corrected generations ago.
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I am waiting for Jaybird's condemnation of slavery going on RIGHT NOW in the middle east and Africa, much of it perpetrated in the name of Islam, rather than rehashing history from 200 years ago that has been corrected generations ago.
Oh, it's OK if the Muslims do it. They can also abuse women, and gays too. No worries, they're Muslim. It's OK! Right? Coming to a town near you!!!
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Jaybird is saying capitalism needs racism. However, his link shows that racism cost companies a lot of money. This dovetails nicely with asechrest's idea that our frail human convoy is correcting and bettering itself as it goes along.
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Jaybird is saying capitalism needs racism. However, his link shows that racism cost companies a lot of money. This dovetails nicely with asechrest's idea that our frail human convoy is correcting and bettering itself as it goes along.
You have been ON IT lately. :D
I'd like to know how these corrective payments were researched and distributed. It was difficult for me to even get my 1st article of credit and it DID have an impact on a major life choice when I was 24. I was told that an option wasn't available to me because I had no credit; I'd never needed it before and so never sought it. Was it racism that tried to keep me out of the system? I don't know, but I do know that my numbers and experience were not part of those compensated.
I also know that in the housing fall of 2007/8 the county wherein I now reside was considered the wealthiest county in America for Blacks (Prince George's County, Maryland). The largest stake of that wealth was documented in home values prior to the crash. It came as no surprise that the county was the hardest hit on value loss, and the county still hasn't recovered (the reasons are complex to include corruption). It didn't surprise me also to learn that a lion's share of the banking fraud and consumer protection violations occurred in my county. None of my neighbors said anything about being compensated. I have a cousin that lost an $800 thousand dollar home; no indemnification.
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Why is it when you lose something people think someone else needs to indemnify you? Lots of people lost their houses and continue to lose their houses, most due to getting in over their heads and most knowingly so, or at least they should have known. Tough crap to them, it sucks, life goes on, be smarter next time. If life kicks you in the ass, it kicks you in the ass, move on.
As to the racial aspect of the articles, racism exists, we all know this, these guys all got whacked hard for it. Most of the time banks charge more to write loans for those with bad credit. That's not racism, that's smart business. I don't know the circumstances here, but apparently there was racism and it was nipped in the bud.
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Are the children's children responsible for the sins of the parents?
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Why is it when you lose something people think someone else needs to indemnify you? Lots of people lost their houses and continue to lose their houses, most due to getting in over their heads and most knowingly so, or at least they should have known. Tough crap to them, it sucks, life goes on, be smarter next time. If life kicks you in the ass, it kicks you in the ass, move on.
As to the racial aspect of the articles, racism exists, we all know this, these guys all got whacked hard for it. Most of the time banks charge more to write loans for those with bad credit. That's not racism, that's smart business. I don't know the circumstances here, but apparently there was racism and it was nipped in the bud.
I agree with your first paragraph. But it's naïve to think that the problem is resolved or that even the full scope of the effect is well understood.
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I agree with your first paragraph. But it's naïve to think that the problem is resolved or that even the full scope of the effect is well understood.
Didn't say the problem was resolved, but I hardly think it is as prevalent as others portend.
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Didn't say the problem was resolved, but I hardly think it is as prevalent as others portend.
Based on what?
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I sold cars for awhile after I retired from the airline, and I never saw a hint of discrimination in either the price nor the financing. And my boss and the finance manager were both black guys, and the owner was asian.
I am glad the folks doing this had to pay a price for their stupidity.
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I sold cars for awhile after I retired from the airline, and I never saw a hint of discrimination in either the price nor the financing. And my boss and the finance manager were both black guys, and the owner was asian.
I am glad the folks doing this had to pay a price for their stupidity.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/11/17/3723255/cfpb-car-loans-discrimination/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/11/17/3723255/cfpb-car-loans-discrimination/)
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Based on what?
Based on a black president getting elected for one.
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http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/11/17/3723255/cfpb-car-loans-discrimination/ (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/11/17/3723255/cfpb-car-loans-discrimination/)
Honestly, car dealerships are equal opportunity shysters.
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I guess we are at the place where simply saying the word, "racist" allows people to make any damned accusation they want, and everybody is supposed to accept it because the "R" word was spoken.
Here is another word that sums up the argument beautifully. "Bull."
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Honestly, car dealerships are equal opportunity shysters.
But you can choose not to patronize them. Government is THE SHYSTER, but we have no choice in the matter.
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But you can choose not to patronize them. Government is THE SHYSTER, but we have no choice in the matter.
You'll get no argument from me on that.
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Would it be racist for me to suggest that a whole bunch of black folks could get together and start their own banks and/or car loan businesses and/or dealerships with the express goal of NOT discriminating on the basis of race? Perhaps even using "affirmative action" to favor blacks?
Or they can just complain and play the slavery card, I suppose.
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I guess we are at the place where simply saying the word, "racist" allows people to make any damned accusation they want, and everybody is supposed to accept it because the "R" word was spoken.
Here is another word that sums up the argument beautifully. "Bull."
Watch in the next decade for a new form of slip-and-fall, DUI, ambulance-chaser law firms to form:
Racial retribution. "One call, that's all!"
..
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Would it be racist for me to suggest that a whole bunch of black folks could get together and start their own banks and/or car loan businesses and/or dealerships with the express goal of NOT discriminating on the basis of race? Perhaps even using "affirmative action" to favor blacks?
Or they can just complain and play the slavery card, I suppose.
They would be accused of being racist. But I say, "Call me anything you want just don't call me during dinner time."
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They would be accused of being racist. But I say, "Call me anything you want just don't call me during dinner time."
Crying racism is the new excuse for self-imposed failure. Those too lazy, untalented, or simply stupid to succeed, hide behind racism to avoid looking squarely at the face in the mirror.
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Crying racism is the new excuse for self-imposed failure. Those too lazy, untalented, or simply stupid to succeed, hide behind racism to avoid looking squarely at the face in the mirror.
You would be partially correct, if this wasn't a blanket statement.
I'll give you an example - I'm Personally acquainted with a Retired USAF Colonel, test pilot, commander USAF test pilot school....let's just say lots of credentials. Oh, and he's black, gotta mention that for poignancy.
He shared with me how he nearly washed out of UPT. If it hadn't been for him standing up for himself and a racist institution, the USAF would have missed out on a great leader. He shared with me that he actually did get washed out of the USAF as an enlisted man due to a racist culture, to later return as an officer; yet he still endured bigotry. He also shared with me that one of his predecessors at the test pilot school decided to collect some data on test pilot school denial rates of black vs white pilots and presented to the Air Force how it was statistically improbable to have a sample size showing a 100% denial rate for black pilots out of the entire USAF list of applicants. He became the first accepted black applicant and if I recall the story correctly there were 3 accepted that year with 1 graduating. The Colonel spoken of above was 1 or 2 classes behind him, but personally knew the predecessor.
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You would be partially correct, if this wasn't a blanket statement.
I'll give you an example - I'm Personally acquainted with a Retired USAF Colonel, test pilot, commander USAF test pilot school....let's just say lots of credentials. Oh, and he's black, gotta mention that for poignancy.
He shared with me how he nearly washed out of UPT. If it hadn't been for him standing up for himself and a racist institution, the USAF would have missed out on a great leader. He shared with me that he actually did get washed out of the USAF as an enlisted man due to a racist culture, to later return as an officer; yet he still endured bigotry. He also shared with me that one of his predecessors at the test pilot school decided to collect some data on test pilot school denial rates of black vs white pilots and presented to the Air Force how it was statistically improbable to have a sample size showing a 100% denial rate for black pilots out of the entire USAF list of applicants. He became the first accepted black applicant and if I recall the story correctly there were 3 accepted that year with 1 graduating. The Colonel spoken of above was 1 or 2 classes behind him, but personally knew the predecessor.
Another ancient tale of woe..... My daughter lost out on additional scholarship money because her skin was too WHITE. So what? Should I and the rest of this state's CAUCASIANS start a WHITE Lives Matter chapter and attempt to shut down that racist bastion of higher learning? I don't think so. Life is way too short to stay mired in bigotry like you and others who are either unwilling or unable to move forward.
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Another ancient tale of woe..... My daughter lost out on additional scholarship money because her skin was too WHITE. So what? Should I and the rest of this state's CAUCASIANS start a WHITE Lives Matter chapter and attempt to shut down that racist bastion of higher learning? I don't think so. Life is way too short to stay mired in bigotry like you and others who are either unwilling or unable to move forward.
You do realize that the experience of your daughter was NOT because black people started the racial problem, it's because we were the victims of White racism. Unfortunate for her, the pendulum swung against her favor. But you can't cite that because "reverse racism" is ...to be blunt, white people's fault too. I believe the term you've thrown around is "white guilt".
I know it's tough for you, Joe but try to stay relevant to the topic or question or sequence of discussion instead of trying to thread derail with useless banter.
And it's not like my story was ancient. This man is in his early 60's.
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You do realize that the experience of your daughter was NOT because black people started the racial problem, it's because we were the victims of White racism. Unfortunate for her, the pendulum swung against her favor. But you can't cite that because "reverse racism" is ...to be blunt, white people's fault too. I believe the term you've thrown around is "white guilt".
And it's not like my story was ancient. This man is in his early 60's.
Well of course it's Whiteys fault.... :o
40 years ago in political terms is ancient history. Move on....
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Well of course it's Whiteys fault.... :o
40 years ago in political terms is ancient history. Move on....
And in what measurable way has 40 years made a difference except in the terminology we use? In an appreciable way, nothing has changed.
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And in what measurable way has 40 years made a difference except in the terminology we use? In an appreciable way, nothing has changed.
Maybe you have a point Jaybird..... in the past 40 years we've thrown many trillions of dollars away on the war on poverty without moving the needle. Maybe we should try personal responsibility for the next 40 years.
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You do realize that the experience of your daughter was NOT because black people started the racial problem, it's because we were the victims of White racism. Unfortunate for her, the pendulum swung against her favor. But you can't cite that because "reverse racism" is ...to be blunt, white people's fault too. I believe the term you've thrown around is "white guilt".
I know it's tough for you, Joe but try to stay relevant to the topic or question or sequence of discussion instead of trying to thread derail with useless banter.
And it's not like my story was ancient. This man is in his early 60's.
So how is your USAF Colonel story relevant to the topic. There was racism in the military. Shocking. Would he see the same thing today? Doubtful.
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Maybe you have a point Jaybird..... in the past 40 years we've thrown many trillions of dollars away on the war on poverty without moving the needle. Maybe we should try personal responsibility for the next 40 years.
Then we're back where we started. Up from slavery blacks were indeed very productive and economically participatory. It was racism in the forms of terrorism, economic policy and legislative maltreatment that proved that the board table is tilted for one group and simultaneously against another. In aviation terms, there is a constant drag on the blackman that means that the same thrust output from his white counterpart won't net him the same speed.
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So how is your USAF Colonel story relevant to the topic. There was racism in the military. Shocking. Would he see the same thing today? Doubtful.
The story was relevant to elucidate my admonition to FC to not speak in blanket terms. Keep up!
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The story was relevant to elucidate my admonition to FC to not speak in blanket terms. Keep up!
it would have been better if the story was actually relevant.
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The story was relevant to elucidate my admonition to FC to not speak in blanket terms. Keep up!
Ok, so to be clear, the story had zip, zero, nada to do with the topic at hand, and was only included to admonish FC. Got it.
And I'm the one that needs to keep up?
Is moving the goalposts a genetically black thing, since in the genetics thread you are blaming slavery for changing blacks' DNA?
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smh....I'm nearly ashamed of saying you're my aviation bretheren.
He painted a broad brush and I disagreed that racism is used by blacks as an excuse for failure. There are examples (my story) of actual racism used to hinder the success of others. In fact, that IS the ONLY definition of racism that I care about. As I said earlier, I don't care about what you call me but I do care about exclusionary opportunities (that I also have to contribute to) that I cannot ever qualify for because I wasn't born in "the club".
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You would be partially correct, if this wasn't a blanket statement.
I'll give you an example - I'm Personally acquainted with a Retired USAF Colonel, test pilot, commander USAF test pilot school....let's just say lots of credentials. Oh, and he's black, gotta mention that for poignancy.
He shared with me how he nearly washed out of UPT. If it hadn't been for him standing up for himself and a racist institution, the USAF would have missed out on a great leader. He shared with me that he actually did get washed out of the USAF as an enlisted man due to a racist culture, to later return as an officer; yet he still endured bigotry. He also shared with me that one of his predecessors at the test pilot school decided to collect some data on test pilot school denial rates of black vs white pilots and presented to the Air Force how it was statistically improbable to have a sample size showing a 100% denial rate for black pilots out of the entire USAF list of applicants. He became the first accepted black applicant and if I recall the story correctly there were 3 accepted that year with 1 graduating. The Colonel spoken of above was 1 or 2 classes behind him, but personally knew the predecessor.
So what. Ancient history.
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So what. Ancient history.
And a Leopard cannot change his spots.
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And a Leopard cannot change his spots.
Like people of all ilk, he can when his pocketbook takes a hit.
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.....In aviation terms, there is a constant drag on the blackman that means that the same thrust output from his white counterpart won't net him the same speed.
Bullshit. Pull your gear and flaps up, and stop depending on someone else for your navigation. The extra drag is fully self inflicted at this point in history.
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My daughter lost out on additional scholarship money because her skin was too WHITE.
I once lost out on a significant scholarship because the school didn't have enough qualfied female applicants.
They had the scholarship funds for, IIRC (it was 20 years ago) 10 scholarships, but they could only award 4 of them, because there were only 2 female students who met the minimum criteria for the scholarship. I was #3 on the male side of things, and because they couldn't find a woman to get #3 on the female side, they were not permitted to give one to me, or the #4 or #5.
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Bullshit. Pull your gear and flaps up, and stop depending on someone else for your navigation. The extra drag is fully self inflicted at this point in history.
I agree in part and disagree in part. Think of America as a patient with an illness. The patient is on medicine. All medicines have side effects, but the objective is to make the patient better than when they sought treatment in the first instance. If you make the patient worse, then you can be found violating the Hippocratic Oath.
I agree that some of what we see now is the medicine having an adverse reaction. However, the cancer is still present for which the medicine was a prescribed. Do we stop the treatments or continue until we get all the cancer rooted out. If we stop, the cancer has a chance to continue replicating and then we're back to square one, except the patient suffered with no relief in sight and now has to deal with the side-effects.
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I agree in part and disagree in part. Think of America as a patient with an illness. The patient is on medicine. All medicines have side effects, but the objective is to make the patient better than when they sought treatment in the first instance. If you make the patient worse, then you can be found violating the Hippocratic Oath.
I agree that some of what we see now is the medicine having an adverse reaction. However, the cancer is still present for which the medicine was a prescribed. Do we stop the treatments or continue until we get all the cancer rooted out. If we stop, the cancer has a chance to continue replicating and then we're back to square one, except the patient suffered with no relief in sight and now has to deal with the side-effects.
A very poor analogy Jaybird. A more appropriate one would be that the current treatment regiment is killing the patient. It's time to try something different.
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A very poor analogy Jaybird. A more appropriate one would be that the current treatment regiment is killing the patient. It's time to try something different.
But the patient was already a dead man walking.
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But the patient was already a dead man walking.
I guess survival of the fittest will have to intervene. We can't save them all Jaybird. Apparently life's a bitch and then we die. Woe is me... and you.
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Bullshit. Pull your gear and flaps up, and stop depending on someone else for your navigation. The extra drag is fully self inflicted at this point in history.
Leave it to Jaybird to ruin an otherwise good analogy. Sometimes you need more thrust to overcome a drag of X. In other words, sometimes you have to work harder. It's irrelevant if you think gravity, or life, is unfair.
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I guess survival of the fittest will have to intervene. We can't save them all Jaybird. Apparently life's a bitch and then we die. Woe is me... and you.
Man plans and Allah Plans. And Allah is The Best of Planners.
Leave it to Jaybird to ruin an otherwise good analogy. Sometimes you need more thrust to overcome a drag of X. In other words, sometimes you have to work harder. It's irrelevant if you think gravity, or life, is unfair.
LoL- It's my effing analogy. LoL...How did I ruin it?
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As has been pointed out by others, the vast majority of failure is self-inflicted, just as the vast amount of blame putting, is an attempt to avoid looking in the right place for the cause of the failure, which is inside.
In an age where black achievers are everywhere, it takes a special brand of blindness to pretend that it's the white man's fault when the fault lies with the lack of either enterprise, energy, or intuition and hard work.
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Leave it to Jaybird to just bypass Jeff's story.