PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: bflynn on October 07, 2019, 07:04:53 AM
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Trump moving our guys out of the way in Syria because....
I’m willing to entertain the idea that it’s beneficial to let Turkey invade, but I cannot see why. More war destabilizes the whole region. Another spineless action because he is afraid of casualties?
I don’t get it. Someone explain?
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We were supposed to be in Syria for thirty days, and that was how many years ago. Turkey is a member of NATO. Let them deal with it. I don't want to expend any more American lives and $$$ for Muslims to fight other Muslims.
No more getting in the middle of TRIBAL WARS and no more NATION BUILDING.
I hope he gets us out of Afghanistan too!
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Trump moving our guys out of the way in Syria because....
I’m willing to entertain the idea that it’s beneficial to let Turkey invade, but I cannot see why. More war destabilizes the whole region. Another spineless action because he is afraid of casualties?
I don’t get it. Someone explain?
What is the US National security reason for us to get involved?
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Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?
Sounds completely the opposite from when Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?
Sounds completely the opposite from when Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
Since we are still in those places 17 years later, 13 years longer than the Second World War, I’m not sure I understand your definition of victory.
So I’ll ask again, what is the US National security imperative for getting involved in this?
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https://www.theepochtimes.com/trump-on-troop-withdrawal-from-syria-time-to-get-out-of-these-ridiculous-endless-wars_3108412.html
Did anyone ever believe we would see liberals getting bent out of shape for wanting to get out of a war? Or see liberals angry for not starting a new war?
Trump should come out tomorrow and demand open borders......and watch how fast the liberals start building the wall!
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What is the US National security reason for us to get involved?
Stability in the region that breeds terrorists.
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https://www.theepochtimes.com/trump-on-troop-withdrawal-from-syria-time-to-get-out-of-these-ridiculous-endless-wars_3108412.html
Did anyone ever believe we would see liberals getting bent out of shape for wanting to get out of a war? Or see liberals angry for not starting a new war?
Trump should come out tomorrow and demand open borders......and watch how fast the liberals start building the wall!
It is all because they HATE TRUMP, although probably any Republican that would do this would be criticized vehemently. Amazing, isn't it? The former Vietnam protesters and their children and grand children of those that protested the Vietnam War that really lasted six or seven years of heavy involvement want to keep us in wars that have lasted multiple decades. Maybe we do need to bring back the Draft?
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Leaving our allies out to dry.
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Trump moving our guys out of the way in Syria because....
I’m willing to entertain the idea that it’s beneficial to let Turkey invade, but I cannot see why. More war destabilizes the whole region. Another spineless action because he is afraid of casualties?
I don’t get it. Someone explain?
It gets really old when we can count on you guys complaining no matter what he does. If he was moving more troops into combat zones, liberals would be having a hissy fit about putting our boys in danger.
And yes, I mean "YOU" guys. How many times have liberals complained because OLD WHITE MEN are starting wars that must be fought by young people, of whom many are people of color. It is total hypocrisy.
If we are going to fight over there, we need to fight to win. But libs would have a cow if Trump did that.
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Leaving our allies out to dry.
Since when has that ever bothered you or any liberal? Oh, it's Trump, so it must be wrong.
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https://www.theepochtimes.com/trump-on-troop-withdrawal-from-syria-time-to-get-out-of-these-ridiculous-endless-wars_3108412.html
Did anyone ever believe we would see liberals getting bent out of shape for wanting to get out of a war? Or see liberals angry for not starting a new war?
Trump should come out tomorrow and demand open borders......and watch how fast the liberals start building the wall!
It is obvious and blatant partisan bias and hypocrisy. Liberals would rather fuck (up) Trump than do what is right for the Nation.
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Trump has made a decision that will create Syria as a Russia front for decades to come. Turkey will get a piece of things. Russia will be pleased because it gets another pawn that it can use to harass our interests when needed.
I don’t think a Russian backed Syria is good for the US. But our authority in the region has been declining for years now and there isn’t much else to do.
The president is a great heckler and smart business guy. IMHO, as a former USN Sailor, he SUCKS as a Commander in Chief.
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Trump has made a decision that will create Syria as a Russia front for decades to come. Turkey will get a piece of things. Russia will be pleased because it gets another pawn that it can use to harass our interests when needed.
I don’t think a Russian backed Syria is good for the US. But our authority in the region has been declining for years now and there isn’t much else to do.
The president is a great heckler and smart business guy. IMHO, as a former USN Sailor, he SUCKS as a Commander in Chief.
You might be right. But it is still total hypocrisy that you only want to do what is right because Trump is doing it differently. Libs applauded when Obama announced we were going to withdraw from the area and hand the whole region over to the Junior Varsity. It took Trump to fix that fuck up. Do you think libs actually learned something from that, or is their complaint now merely a complaint because it was Trump.
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Trump has made a decision that will create Syria as a Russia front for decades to come. Turkey will get a piece of things. Russia will be pleased because it gets another pawn that it can use to harass our interests when needed.
I don’t think a Russian backed Syria is good for the US. But our authority in the region has been declining for years now and there isn’t much else to do.
I don't give a shit. Not worth my kid's lives nor my money anymore. If they become a threat, we will deal with it.
The president is a great heckler and smart business guy. IMHO, as a former USN Sailor, he SUCKS as a Commander in Chief.
I bet the guys he is getting out of harm's way think he's a great Commander in Chief. I'm tired of risking them for crappy wars that don't meaning anything.
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Leaving our allies out to dry.
You're too funny. What happened to "War for Oil", and "Nation Building", and "America is a COLONIAL POWER"! Ahhhhhh!!!
A bit hypocritical eh Michael?
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Turkey is a fucking waste as far as being an friend.
Syria is a typical, tribal, muslim, fuck up.
No wonder mikey wants to waste our soldiers lives there.
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I don't give a shit. Not worth my kid's lives nor my money anymore. If they become a threat, we will deal with it.
I bet the guys he is getting out of harm's way think he's a great Commander in Chief. I'm tired of risking them for crappy wars that don't meaning anything.
There is no reason for us to be there. We gave the Kurds advanced weapons. Now they will learn how to use them. If they want help ask the UN. That's what they are there for. We cannot be the world's police force any more. As you said, not worth lives or resources to try to stabilize an area that cannot and will not be stable. Bring our boys home.
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Stability in the region that breeds terrorists.
I seem to have heard that argument about 18 years ago. How did that work out?
I supported Gulf War I and II. GWI was fought appropriately, if not ending prematurely. It was fought with the goal of winning.
GWII on the other hand has been a American-slaughtering cluster fuck because the leftists got involved dictating ROEs that TO THIS DAY get our boys killed by driving along IED highways and walking down streets lined with known enemy combatants. The concept of “winning” via superior firepower, with the goal of ending it, doesn’t exist. It never did.
So fuck the “stability in the region” excuse. If they get out of line, bring in the B-52s, B-1s, and whatever else we can bring to bear.
I’m sick and tired of not going for the win.
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I seem to have heard that argument about 18 years ago. How did that work out?
I supported Gulf War I and II. GWI was fought appropriately, if not ending prematurely. It was fought with the goal of winning.
GWII on the other hand has been a American-slaughtering cluster fuck because the leftists got involved dictating ROEs that TO THIS DAY get our boys killed by driving along IED highways and walking down streets lined with known enemy combatants. The concept of “winning” via superior firepower, with the goal of ending it, doesn’t exist. It never did.
So fuck the “stability in the region” excuse. If they get out of line, bring in the B-52s, B-1s, and whatever else we can bring to bear.
I’m sick and tired of not going for the win.
^^^^^THiS. Well said Stan!
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Trump is right, we should not be the world's police force.
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Leaving our allies out to dry.
We are bound by treaty to back Turkey. It’s called the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
What are you suggesting we do?
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Trump has made a decision that will create Syria as a Russia front for decades to come. Turkey will get a piece of things. Russia will be pleased because it gets another pawn that it can use to harass our interests when needed.
I don’t think a Russian backed Syria is good for the US. But our authority in the region has been declining for years now and there isn’t much else to do.
The president is a great heckler and smart business guy. IMHO, as a former USN Sailor, he SUCKS as a Commander in Chief.
You may not have noticed but Russia has had a Navy base and 3 air bases in Syria for a while. Two newest ones were formalized via treaty with Russia in 2015.
I know you relish placing the “Syria as a Russian front” at the foot of Trump, but exactly what were you saying when the last two were formalized under Obama’s foreign relation blunders?
I know. Fuck it. Let’s go to war with Russia. We’ll show them who’s boss. When is your child or grandchild enlisting?
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Trump moving our guys out of the way in Syria because....
I’m willing to entertain the idea that it’s beneficial to let Turkey invade, but I cannot see why. More war destabilizes the whole region. Another spineless action because he is afraid of casualties?
I don’t get it. Someone explain?
We could expend millions of American lives and those countries would still be at war.
If you don't learn from history, you are bound to repeat it.
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Trump moving our guys out of the way in Syria because....
I’m willing to entertain the idea that it’s beneficial to let Turkey invade, but I cannot see why. More war destabilizes the whole region. Another spineless action because he is afraid of casualties?
I don’t get it. Someone explain?
Can you explain how US military presence in Syria will bring peace and stability to the region?
Please consider how much the US military is loved or hated by the people in Syria.
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Bring ‘em all home for some R&R, then deploy them to the southern border.
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You might be right. But it is still total hypocrisy that you only want to do what is right because Trump is doing it differently. Libs applauded when Obama announced we were going to withdraw from the area and hand the whole region over to the Junior Varsity. It took Trump to fix that fuck up. Do you think libs actually learned something from that, or is their complaint now merely a complaint because it was Trump.
It would be hypocrisy if I changed, but I have remained consistent - We should be in Syria because it is good for the US, just as we were in Iraq and Afghanistan. I challenge you to find a contrary statement that I have made about Syria, here or anywhere. An apology is in order but I won’t hold my breath.
Factually, our political position in Syria has been compromised, by both Obama and Trump talking about us getting out. Trump lacked the will to secure the country, I think because he is a wimp when it comes to the military. Yes, we killed every member of ISIS that we found and now we’re leaving something else bad in place.
As long as we were there, we had an opportunity to influence. Now we have nothing except the removal of the caliphate and replacing it with a Russian puppet.
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It would be hypocrisy if I changed, but I have remained consistent - We should be in Syria because it is good for the US, just as we were in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Why are being in these places for decades "good for the US" at this point?
As long as we were there, we had an opportunity to influence. Now we have nothing except the removal of the caliphate and replacing it with a Russian puppet.
I don't care. Let the Russians deal with them. The ENERGY paradigm has changed with Trump. We are now the largest oil producer in the world, and a net exporter of energy.
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It would be hypocrisy if I changed, but I have remained consistent
No. That wouldn't be an example of hypocrisy
A while back there were a few posts about people not thinking if they never change their position.
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It would be hypocrisy if I changed, but I have remained consistent - We should be in Syria because it is good for the US, just as we were in Iraq and Afghanistan. I challenge you to find a contrary statement that I have made about Syria, here or anywhere. An apology is in order but I won’t hold my breath.
You can exhale now. I will "sort of" apologize.
My reply to you was knee-jerk, just as I assumed your complaint was. As I learn more about the situation, I agree with you that we should not abandon the Kurds. I would have (and did) complain when Obama did similar. One difference though is that Turkey is a NATO member and we have a treaty to defend them. But we don't have a treaty to aid them if they are the aggressor. The problem though, is that over there, WHO THE FUCK KNOWS who the aggressor is. They hold grudges for thousands of years. We don't even hold them for a score of years. their psyche is different than ours.
But back to my apology, your post was one of the first times I heard of the situation. Later, I heard about it on CNN, PBS, WAPO and NYT. They all sounded like you and it sounded obvious that they were only complaining because it was Trumps decision. They will complain no matter what Trump does, and since I usually agree with Trump, I usually disagree with those guys. But on "further review", in this instance, they were right, just like a broken clock is right twice a day (unless it is a 24 hour clock; then once a day). This might have been one of those times. And so were you (right).
ON the other hand;
I don't think it would really make a hill of beans difference if we did stand and fight Turkey (or Syria or the Kurds or anybody else over there). All we do in those wars is spend money, lose American lives and make even more enemies.
So, my apology is not so much that you were right, but that I shouldn't have called you a hypocrite for stating your beliefs.
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So fuck the “stability in the region” excuse. If they get out of line, bring in the B-52s, B-1s, and whatever else we can bring to bear.
I’m sick and tired of not going for the win.
We had the win. ISIS was contained. The terrorists were in prisons. We were training people for the long term. Now we have a lot of useless deaths and Trump has thrown away what they died for.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
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So, my apology is not so much that you were right, but that I shouldn't have called you a hypocrite for stating your beliefs.
That's what an apology is. Whether I'm right or wrong isn't even relevant to it.
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Update:
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/14/trumps-syrian-maneuver-works-president-erdogan-asks-for-negotiations-with-kurds-insyria/
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We had the win. ISIS was contained. The terrorists were in prisons. We were training people for the long term. Now we have a lot of useless deaths and Trump has thrown away what they died for.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
If the battle is won, then why keep our 2,000 men in theater? Are you saying the 50,000 Kurds and Syrians that they trained can’t handle keeping ISIS down? How long should we stay there? 18 years in Afghanistan and no end in sight.
Can you let me know when Congress authorized war in Syria? I missed that designation.
It’s wild that moderates and liberals who were screaming their fucking ass off about “no more war,” “No more nation building,” and of course the classic “no war for oil” are now the hawkest of the hawks, willing to sacrifice our men to stand a post in the middle of hostilities that have been around for 1,300 years.
At least most conservatives have learned our lessons about the folly of meddling in the ME.
It’s almost as if the policy preferences of the moderates and the liberals depends on the jersey of the man in the Oval Office. Weird.
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Dems love a war. And they also love to point fingers at Republicans being the war lovers. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam; all started when a dem president was in office.
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If the battle is won, then why keep our 2,000 men in theater? Are you saying the 50,000 Kurds and Syrians that they trained can’t handle keeping ISIS down? How long should we stay there? 18 years in Afghanistan and no end in sight.
Security. Turkey would not have attacked Syria when our troops were staying. But now that they're being pulled out, they've actually been shelled by artillery.
Congress authorized it by not objecting. The president deployed the troops and if Congress doesn't like they, there is a resolution procedure for them to follow. They haven't, which is implicit approval.
Training locals was not completed. The people in prison camps are being freed. Yes, they can't handle keeping ISIS down because they're being killed by the Turks.
It's equally wild that conservatives are all about pulling troops out.
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My understanding is we didn't pull them all out, just half.
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My understanding is that we only pulled them out when it seemed the Turkish invasion was inevitable and it would have been suicide to leave them there. What would a handful of Americans do against an invasion?
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Bottom line is this: Had this been BHO, or GWB, or WJC this wouldn't have even been news worthy.
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Bottom line is this: Had this been BHO, or GWB, or WJC this wouldn't have even been news worthy.
Bingo. And all the Leftists (Democrats) would be lauding how peace loving they were and how they valued our soldier's lives.
Trump could find a cure for cancer, or eliminate world hunger and the Democrats and the Media (same thing) would criticize him for it.
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Bingo. And all the Leftists (Democrats) would be lauding how peace loving they were and how they valued our soldier's lives.
Trump could find a cure for cancer, or eliminate world hunger and the Democrats and the Media (same thing) would criticize him for it.
Yep, this is yet another huge nothing burger meant to rile up the simple minds.
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My understanding is that we only pulled them out when it seemed the Turkish invasion was inevitable and it would have been suicide to leave them there. What would a handful of Americans do against an invasion?
Well, it was a thousand people - soldiers or Marines, I don't know which - in northern Syria. I think calling that a handful is misleading at best. The troops were withdrawn after the President spoke with Erdogan on the phone, not because Turkey was attacking. Show of Force? No, Show of Fear.
Russia has moved in and taken over Syria. The Kurds are now aligned with them. Turkey is killing civilians. At least a thousand ISIS fighters are free. US reputation in the region has fallen more than it ever did because of Obama's apology tour.
This is the price of "no more our boys killed." Worth it? You decide.
The President is a coward who lacks the backbone to be Commander in Chief.
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Well, it was a thousand people - soldiers or Marines, I don't know which - in northern Syria. I think calling that a handful is misleading at best. The troops were withdrawn after the President spoke with Erdogan on the phone, not because Turkey was attacking. Show of Force? No, Show of Fear.
Russia has moved in and taken over Syria. The Kurds are now aligned with them. Turkey is killing civilians. At least a thousand ISIS fighters are free. US reputation in the region has fallen more than it ever did because of Obama's apology tour.
This is the price of "no more our boys killed." Worth it? You decide.
The President is a coward who lacks the backbone to be Commander in Chief.
My problem with responding to this is that I halfway agree with you. I regret that ISIS prisoners have been freed. I regret that civilians are being murdered. I hate that Kurdish soldiers that we have supported in the past are now being attacked by Turkey.
Are we to defend the Turks forever? Alliances in the Middle East change with the sands.
The only way I could completely agree with you is if we isolated a position and made the military commitment to see it through to the end.
I'm sick of us having ROEs of not shooting unless shot at. I'm sick of all the hand wringing if they use civilians as shields. And I'm sick of liberals bitching about anything Trump does, even if it follows their long held position
Perhaps instead of putting up a wall with Mexico, we should annex Mexico (the same way Russia would) and put up a wall around the Middle East instead.
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Have these sames folks not been fighting for centuries?
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Funny, how Trump has now turned the left into Hawks
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And as it turns out, Trump has overseen a negotiated a cease fire without losing a single American soldier.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/17/us-and-turkey-agree-to-cease-fire-in-syria-vice-president-mike-pence-announces.html
What an asshole he is. Doesn't he know that he is supposed to get us INTO wars? The MSM has been telling us that for years. No wonder they are so disappointed. If Trump wasn't such a coward, this could have truly turned into an expensive blood bath.
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Clearly it was the work of Vice President Pence.
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The Turkish prime minister says it's temporary. It's a 5 day pause so the terrorists involved can run away so Turkey doesn't have to fight them.
Changes nothing about the long term situation other than reduces casualties for Turkey and whoever decides to run off. Russia is still running Syria, the Kurds are now aligned with Russia and the US reputation is crap.
Basically, Turkey and Russia have just been waiting for us to leave so they can move in.
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The Turkish prime minister says it's temporary. It's a 5 day pause so the terrorists involved can run away so Turkey doesn't have to fight them.
Changes nothing about the long term situation other than reduces casualties for Turkey and whoever decides to run off. Russia is still running Syria, the Kurds are now aligned with Russia and the US reputation is crap.
Basically, Turkey and Russia have just been waiting for us to leave so they can move in.
We could still be there in 20 years from now and they will just be waiting for us to leave so they can move in.
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We could still be there in 20 years from now and they will just be waiting for us to leave so they can move in.
This.
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The left's playbook didn't work, again.
The MSM is apocalyptic. They needed a new war to hang around the President's neck, and he didn't bite.
More Winning.
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and the US reputation is crap.
I keep hearing this type of complaint.
It doesn't matter what the US does, some people are going to keep claiming the US reputation is crap (or worse) because of [insert whatever the US does or doesn't do]
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Yep, the US reputation is such crap that third world shitholes still take our money, countries like Germany still expect us to pay to defend them, and millions upon millions want to come here to gain citizenship.
Anytime one is at the top, there will always be those wanting to topple you.
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Yep, the US reputation is such crap that third world shitholes still take our money, countries like Germany still expect us to pay to defend them, and millions upon millions want to come here to gain citizenship.
Anytime one is at the top, there will always be those wanting to topple you.
Our wonderful Media makes the low information types think our reputation has suffered when Trump has restored respect that Obama lost in his apology tour and eight years of foreign dealings and horrible defense policy. I am glad they think "orange man bad" instead of "brown man a pushover".
I want our enemies to fear us, and our allies to respect us. I don't care if they like us as if they do that means they are taking even more advantage of us.
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https://www.pickeringpost.com/howellwoltz/12989/trump-wins-war-game-by-not-playing-it-pure-genius/
Trump ruins Rouhani’s narrative by withdrawing 50 soldiers from Syria – leaving Muslims to take out their own trash.
As soon as Obama left the White House, Trump wiped out Rouhani’s Iranian-backed ISIS in less time than it takes a Mullah to get a new sex-slave. That was bad enough—but now Trump has messed up Iran’s narrative for war.
How you ask?
Well, because he’s not going to hold, try, execute, or deal with the thousands of Rouhani-backed killers the Kurds captured while wiping out the Caliphate.
He’s leaving the Muslims to deal with their own trash, and it is infuriating Rouhani.
Trump to Iran: “Take out your own damn trash I’m not doing it”
Rouhani successfully reached out to RINOs (Republicans In Name Only) on Democrat media outlets today in America to stir the war hive and start them buzzing after Trump for taking 50 soldiers (yes, just 50) out of the Syrian hellhole.
But The Donald? He just smiles as he brings his young heroes home.
THE BRILLIANCE OF TRUMP’S MOVE IS BEYOND COMPARE
Every past president in my lifetime would have played by the rules.
They would have taken these thousands of murderous savages to Guantanamo Bay like the last few presidential fools did, creating a rallying cry and recruiting tool Iranians and other radical Muslims could use for decades.
What the RINO fools hazing Trump don’t realise is that the Kurds they misguidedly call ‘allies’ are Muslims too. That’s worth repeating–the KURDS ARE MUSLIMS TOO.
The Quran forbids them to have any friends that are non-Muslim. The exception is for using and deceiving ‘Christians, Jews and other Kaffir [non-believers]’ when it suits them – to betray and kill them later.
“War is deceit,” as the Prophet (Profit) Mohammed said after setting this example.
Yes. It is Sharia, because that’s exactly what Mohammed, (the Muslims’ Perfect Man) did after the Battle of Uhud.
He savagely beheaded 800 Jews who fed and protected him, took the leader’s 14-year old, Safiiyah, as his sex slave, and sold the rest.
Below are some of Rouhani’s fine young men leaving their stronghold in Syria last year, after being trounced by The Trump. These happy warriors just murdered 50 women–a good day in any Muslim man’s life, no?
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Well, it was a thousand people - soldiers or Marines, I don't know which - in northern Syria. I think calling that a handful is misleading at best.
Can you cite a source that says thousands of American troops were pulled out of Syria? I was skeptical when Lucifer said it was 50, but when I did a search, that was the number I found. Fifty is definitely "a handful".
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Can you cite a source that says thousands of American troops were pulled out of Syria? I was skeptical when Lucifer said it was 50, but when I did a search, that was the number I found. Fifty is definitely "a handful".
Never underestimate Lucifer..........
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https://freebeacon.com/columns/syria-endgame/
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Is the ceasefire broken already? Turkey is fighting again.
Was it just a ploy?
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I keep hearing this type of complaint.
It doesn't matter what the US does, some people are going to keep claiming the US reputation is crap (or worse) because of [insert whatever the US does or doesn't do]
Including many Americans who don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground.
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So apparently yes - Turkey never intended to keep a ceasefire, they were just thumbing their noses at Pence and America. They might have stopped fighting long enough to reload.
They obviously don't respect us. Time for the President to draw another line in the sand, that last one doesn't seem to have worked, just like it didn't work for Obama.
I guess we'll try economic sanctions now. ::) ::) :-\
Freaking coward. And freaking is not the word that really comes to mind.
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So apparently yes - Turkey never intended to keep a ceasefire, they were just thumbing their noses at Pence and America. They might have stopped fighting long enough to reload.
They obviously don't respect us. Time for the President to draw another line in the sand, that last one doesn't seem to have worked, just like it didn't work for Obama.
I guess we'll try economic sanctions now. ::) ::) :-\
Freaking coward. And freaking is not the word that really comes to mind.
Ok, I'm not going to argue with you because I wound up apologizing last time. There is a LOT to consider over there.
What do you think he should do? If I read you right, you think economic sanctions are as laughable as I do.
Throw American troops in his path? For how many years (or decades)?
Bomb the shit out of Turkey? (A NATO signatory).
Go nuclear? Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that if we covered all of our bases and were ready to fend off nuclear attacks on us.
If you were POTUS, what would you do?
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Ok, I'm not going to argue with you because I wound up apologizing last time. There is a LOT to consider over there.
What do you think he should do? If I read you right, you think economic sanctions are as laughable as I do.
Throw American troops in his path? For how many years (or decades)?
Bomb the shit out of Turkey? (A NATO signatory).
Go nuclear? Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that if we covered all of our bases and were ready to fend off nuclear attacks on us.
If you were POTUS, what would you do?
You forgot centuries ;) That's how ling this shit has been going on over there. At least the Russians were smart enough to pull out of Afghanistan, the U.S. not so much. >:(
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You forgot centuries ;) That's how ling this shit has been going on over there. At least the Russians were smart enough to pull out of Afghanistan, the U.S. not so much. >:(
We used to call Afghanistan Russia's Vietnam. I guess we haven't learned from our OWN lessons, nor the Russians.
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You forgot centuries ;) That's how ling this shit has been going on over there. At least the Russians were smart enough to pull out of Afghanistan, the U.S. not so much. >:(
The MIC doesn’t care. Endless wars are big business. Look at how much this country has sank into Afghanistan, with the majority of that money being spent on contractors and not the US military. Those contracts are lucrative.
Thus why all the crying by the establishment (R’s and D’s), their handlers are losing money if the US doesn’t gin up a war in Syria, and they’re even more pissed off because we didn’t charge into Iran.
The MIC needs simple minds to demand more military actions. After all, it’s all about business.
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And Trump is pissing off the MIC enough where I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to pull a Kennedy on him.
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And Trump is pissing off the MIC enough where I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to pull a Kennedy on him.
The MIC saw the gold mine that was VN. And it paid off handsomely.
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The MIC doesn’t care. Endless wars are big business. Look at how much this country has sank into Afghanistan, with the majority of that money being spent on contractors and not the US military. Those contracts are lucrative.
Thus why all the crying by the establishment (R’s and D’s), their handlers are losing money if the US doesn’t gin up a war in Syria, and they’re even more pissed off because we didn’t charge into Iran.
The MIC needs simple minds to demand more military actions. After all, it’s all about business.
We can’t do much about the MIC. What slays me are people like bflynn who love to continue to use our limited forces with severely restricted ROEs as pawns in a 1,300 year conflict. Most conservatives have learned their lesson after the last 18 years. Libs? Not so much.
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We can’t do much about the MIC. What slays me are people like bflynn who love to continue to use our limited forces with severely restricted ROEs as pawns in a 1,300 year conflict. Most conservatives have learned their lesson after the last 18 years. Libs? Not so much.
It's like the TSA. The APPEARANCE of War, but in reality a no win conflict where guys get killed needlessly, and we spend billions. These proxy wars are worthless today.
It's funny how the Democrats and their idiot supporters are upset for Trump wanting to get us out. If it were Obama doing it they'd want to give him another Nobel Peace Price.
Send Greta Thunberg over there. Give her an old Enfield and push her out. See if it warms up for her.
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Simply amazing.
The progressives are throwing themselves on the floor and kicking in a tantrum to ramp up a war in Syria.......with a NATO ally no less.
"We must defend the Syria border with Turkey!"
Hey, here's a thought! How about defending our borders? We have thousands upon thousands of AMERICANS dying each year in our own country from a border that's not defended. Where's the outrage?? Where's Nancy and Chuck walking into the WH and demanding action? Where is Nancy putting a resolution through Congress demanding troops on our border?
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I guess that congress, along with the progressive horde is too busy supporting the has-been, comrade LeBron James and teh Communist Basketball League to actually think about the bullshit their pushing.
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Simply amazing.
The progressives are throwing themselves on the floor and kicking in a tantrum to ramp up a war in Syria.......with a NATO ally no less.
"We must defend the Syria border with Turkey!"
Hey, here's a thought! How about defending our borders? We have thousands upon thousands of AMERICANS dying each year in our own country from a border that's not defended. Where's the outrage?? Where's Nancy and Chuck walking into the WH and demanding action? Where is Nancy putting a resolution through Congress demanding troops on our border?
The people coming across our border are votes for dems. That's why they are quiet. Americans are the very last people dems care about.
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The people coming across our border are votes for dems. That's why they are quiet. Americans are the very last people dems care about.
That's the problem synthesized to it's essence. The Democrats are not on the side of the American tax paying CITIZEN. They are for Illegal Aliens, Blacks who think they're victims, LGBT, students who won't pay back their loans, pot smokers, and America haters.
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What do you think he should do? If I read you right, you think economic sanctions are as laughable as I do.
...
If you were POTUS, what would you do?
I honestly don’t have the first clue what I would do now that the whole situation has been fucked three ways to Sunday.
My first thing to do would be started three years ago with an unequivocal message of long term support for Syria and the stability of the region. I would never have been in this situation because it is such a shit show.
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I honestly don’t have the first clue what I would do now that the whole situation has been fucked three ways to Sunday.
now? It got messed up only now?
Are you serious?
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Anyone remember Obama's famous line in the sand?
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now? It got messed up only now?
Are you serious?
No. Trump has been messing it up for the past three years. He had the chance to change it but didn’t.
Did you stop reading after the first sentence?
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”I am increasingly optimistic that we can have some historic solutions in Syria that have eluded us for years if we play our cards right,” Graham said.
Graham said Trump was prepared to use U.S. air power over a demilitarized zone occupied by international forces, adding that the use of air power could help ensure Islamic State fighters who had been held in the area did not “break out.”
Sen. Jim Inhofe, a Republican who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, said on Saturday that Trump understood the need for the United States to maintain air power in the region.
“The U.S. must retain air power to keep the pressure on ISIS, prevent our adversaries Russia and Iran from exploiting this situation and protect our partners on the ground,” he said in a statement. ISIS is an acronym for Islamic State.
Graham also said he believed the United States and Kurdish forces long allied with Washington could establish a venture to modernize Syrian oil fields, with the revenue flowing to the Kurds. “President Trump is thinking outside the box,” Graham said of Trump’s thinking on oil.
“The president appreciates what the Kurds have done,” Graham added. “He wants to make sure ISIS does not come back. I expect we will continue to partner with the Kurds in Eastern Syria to make sure ISIS does not re-emerge.”
Graham, referring to the Kurdish fighters in the region, had previously warned that Trump’s decision to pull out U.S. troops would lead to their “destruction.”
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/10/21/world/politics-diplomacy-world/syria-pullout-critic-sen-lindsey-graham-reverses-stance-now-says-trumps-policy-succeed/#.Xa0T3IplChB
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No. Trump has been messing it up for the past three years. He had the chance to change it but didn’t.
Interesting. He was "messing it up" even before he was became President.
Did you stop reading after the first sentence?
Does every reply to one of your posts require commentary on your entire post?
But when someone doesn't even get the timing right, there isn't much incentive to pay attention to the rest.
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Does every reply to one of your posts require commentary on your entire post?
Only when it's relevant, which in this case it was certainly was.
...first sentence...
My first thing to do would be started three years ago with an unequivocal message of long term support for Syria and the stability of the region. I would never have been in this situation because it is such a shit show.
now? It got messed up only now?
Do you see how the second sentence answered your later question and identifies that the screw up started when Trump was saying from the beginning that we were getting out of Syria. That sends the message to everyone that we're not serious and eventually results in your troops getting potatoes and tomatoes thrown as them by the local people as they drive away.
So the post you quoted as being deficient actually contained the answer to your question. I think you were just looking for a reason to bust my chops. Nice try, but swing and a miss.
Meanwhile, it seems pretty certain now that there was never a ceasefire and Trump and Pence definitely got played.
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So what has Trump been "messing up"?
Well, the thread is about Syria. What did you think I was talking about.
Trump royally screwed up our position in Syria. He compromised local power, practically destroyed our credibility in the region and therefore our ability to affect outcomes and he got majorly outplayed by Erdogan and Putin. There is nothing to say that we're winning on except "well, our guys aren't going to get killed anymore". I'm quite certain those troops are pissed as hell at having the rug pulled out from under them by a cowardly CiC.
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snipperoo
Too bad you didn't read my post.
But I'll rephrase it (even though I realize it's a waste of time), three years ago Donald Trump wasn't President.
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Here's the reality of what's going on:
The radical progressives and leftist desperately need the President to get us into another endless war. They need the antiwar left in the streets protesting a "warmonger" President, and they need MSM talking points and sound bites to be played 24/7.
Trump hasn't taken the bait, and they're furious.
Also, if Nancy and Chuck think we need to be in Syria, the congress has the power to declare war. It's right there in the constitution. All Nancy needs to do is call a vote. So why aren't the leftist/progressives bitching and complaining that Nancy won't call a vote?
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How many troops were involved in this?
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The whole mess in the mid east is an outgrowth of the betrayal of the Arabs at the end of WWI by Britain, France and Woodrow Wilson (a Democrat). France and Britain had a secret agreement to break their promises to the Arabs for self rule. Woodrow Wilson suppressed a report that had surveyed the Arabs indicating their preference to be either independent or if not that, overseen by the Americans. Wilson made the call at the Paris Peace talks to back the betrayal and allow France and Britain to carve up the Arab lands, in ways not aligned with cultural groups. The alternative would have been King Faisal who was a unifying figure, but he was betrayed. So if there is any one American president responsible for the current mess in the mid east, it's not Trump.
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Well, the thread is about Syria. What did you think I was talking about.
Trump royally screwed up our position in Syria. He compromised local power, practically destroyed our credibility in the region and therefore our ability to affect outcomes and he got majorly outplayed by Erdogan and Putin. There is nothing to say that we're winning on except "well, our guys aren't going to get killed anymore". I'm quite certain those troops are pissed as hell at having the rug pulled out from under them by a cowardly CiC.
I'm OK with that. There is no way anyone can affect outcomes in the Middle East other than the local tribes. One superpower or another may think they are moving things, but only locally and only for a short period of time. Then it's back to business as usual among the tribes there. Let Putin get bogged down in Syria like the Soviets got bogged down in Afghanistan. He'll thrash around there for a bit and then leave, just like last time.
I'm very sure that our troops are happy to come home alive and whole to their loved ones. I'm not so sure that they are pissed as hell to be out of that shithole.
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https://www.citizenfreepress.com/breaking/tom-fitton-breaking-obama-admin-knew-weapons-were-shipped-from-benghazi-to-syrian-jihadists/
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I'm OK with that. There is no way anyone can affect outcomes in the Middle East other than the local tribes. One superpower or another may think they are moving things, but only locally and only for a short period of time. Then it's back to business as usual among the tribes there. Let Putin get bogged down in Syria like the Soviets got bogged down in Afghanistan. He'll thrash around there for a bit and then leave, just like last time.
I'm very sure that our troops are happy to come home alive and whole to their loved ones. I'm not so sure that they are pissed as hell to be out of that shithole.
yup, life is not like the TV drama or movie where the conflict gets resolved in 60 minutes or 120 minutes.
Stuff has been going on in the ME for centuries, if not millennia, (not just a few decades).
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. . . Then it's back to business as usual among the tribes there. Let Putin get bogged down in Syria like the Soviets got bogged down in Afghanistan. He'll thrash around there for a bit and then leave, just like last time.
Well, to be honest, the main reason Russia got thrashed was because we gave the Mujaheddin a shit load of modern weapons, like Stinger shoulder fired missiles that let them bring down helicopters. And it was also much of those arms and the training we gave them that let them kick our ass and maim thousands of our soldiers. That is what I don't want to see happen again.
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I'm OK with that. There is no way anyone can affect outcomes in the Middle East other than the local tribes. One superpower or another may think they are moving things, but only locally and only for a short period of time. Then it's back to business as usual among the tribes there. Let Putin get bogged down in Syria like the Soviets got bogged down in Afghanistan. He'll thrash around there for a bit and then leave, just like last time.
I'm very sure that our troops are happy to come home alive and whole to their loved ones. I'm not so sure that they are pissed as hell to be out of that shithole.
If they are happy to leave, then they're very, very different than the people I served with and our country is in grave danger. However, that doesn't seem to be the case: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/i-cant-even-look-at-the-atrocities-us-troops-say-trumps-syria-withdrawal-betrayed-an-ally/2019/10/15/4e79b600-eeca-11e9-b648-76bcf86eb67e_story.html
It's not back to business as usual there. Russia now controls most of Syria. What country are you willing to give them next?
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If they are happy to leave, then they're very, very different than the people I served with and our country is in grave danger. However, that doesn't seem to be the case: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/i-cant-even-look-at-the-atrocities-us-troops-say-trumps-syria-withdrawal-betrayed-an-ally/2019/10/15/4e79b600-eeca-11e9-b648-76bcf86eb67e_story.html
It's not back to business as usual there. Russia now controls most of Syria. What country are you willing to give them next?
Ah yes. The old domino theory. I remember it well.
It didn’t hold water in the 60s either.
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I don't care if the Russians control Syria or any other Sh*thole country. Let them waste their lives and money playing referee in a civil war.
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Ah yes. The old domino theory. I remember it well.
It didn’t hold water in the 60s either.
It isn't old domino theory, it's still in play today. Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Syria. Have you not been paying attention - they're not bogged down in these countries, why would they get bogged down in Syria? I predict Iraq is their next target because Russia has wanted another warm water port for centuries.
Then check out what China is doing in Africa, in addition to Nepal and the barrier islands in the China Sea.
How much of the world are you willing to yield to them?
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It isn't old domino theory, it's still in play today. Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Syria. Have you not been paying attention - they're not bogged down in these countries, why would they get bogged down in Syria? I predict Iraq is their next target because Russia has wanted another warm water port for centuries.
Then check out what China is doing in Africa, in addition to Nepal and the barrier islands in the China Sea.
How much of the world are you willing to yield to them?
All but North America. And they can even have the southern part of N.A. if we can just put that damn wall up.
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All but North America. And they can even have the southern part of N.A. if we can just put that damn wall up.
I think they already have California and New York.
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I think they already have California and New York.
And NJ, MA, CT, RI, HI, CO, MD, MN, IL, and gaining WA, OR, VT, NH, and others. :(
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It isn't old domino theory, it's still in play today. Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Syria. Have you not been paying attention - they're not bogged down in these countries, why would they get bogged down in Syria? I predict Iraq is their next target because Russia has wanted another warm water port for centuries.
Then check out what China is doing in Africa, in addition to Nepal and the barrier islands in the China Sea.
How much of the world are you willing to yield to them?
Excellent point. Let’s occupy Africa. You first.
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From the sounds it, the Chinese investment in Africa has yielded exactly what one would expect, lots of local corruption and poorly built projects. Not too worried about it. The Russian expansion in the ME is far more worrying. We still like to affect outcomes in that region, due to its importance to the energy sector. Then again, this could turn into another quagmire for them, investing men and material for uncertain outcomes.
Personally, I think we'd be better served to invest all the money we've used to militarily affect outcomes in the ME in fossil fuel alternatives. Put fossil fuels in the rear view mirror and the ME ceases to matter.
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Excellent point. Let’s occupy Africa. You first.
He does have a point. But of course we aren't in a position to do with Africa what China is doing. We are no longer strong enough. We literally have barbarians flowing into the country over the border and we are on the verge of bankruptcy. It's too late be the world superpower anymore. And anyway Chinese citizens have no say when their government gives away resources to another continent. Americans wouldn't tolerate it and rightly so. China is not just giving financial support to Africa, it is importing culture and nurturing loyalties. Africa WILL modernize sooner or later, and when it becomes a first world continent do we want it to lean to Western capitalist and democracy values? Or Chinese communist values and thug style low grade capitalism? It may be right to not send money overseas when taxpayers are already too burdened but there will be consequences.
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From the sounds it, the Chinese investment in Africa has yielded exactly what one would expect, lots of local corruption and poorly built projects. Not too worried about it. The Russian expansion in the ME is far more worrying. We still like to affect outcomes in that region, due to its importance to the energy sector. Then again, this could turn into another quagmire for them, investing men and material for uncertain outcomes.
Personally, I think we'd be better served to invest all the money we've used to militarily affect outcomes in the ME in fossil fuel alternatives. Put fossil fuels in the rear view mirror and the ME ceases to matter.
I agree.
G O . . . N U C L E A R ! ! !
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From the sounds it, the Chinese investment in Africa has yielded exactly what one would expect, lots of local corruption and poorly built projects. Not too worried about it. The Russian expansion in the ME is far more worrying. We still like to affect outcomes in that region, due to its importance to the energy sector. Then again, this could turn into another quagmire for them, investing men and material for uncertain outcomes.
Personally, I think we'd be better served to invest all the money we've used to militarily affect outcomes in the ME in fossil fuel alternatives. Put fossil fuels in the rear view mirror and the ME ceases to matter.
We are the world's largest oil producer, and a net exporter of energy. We no longer need the Middle East oil. We have centuries of domestic fossil fuel supply and finding more everyday. No need for "alternatives" either.
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He does have a point. But of course we aren't in a position to do with Africa what China is doing. We are no longer strong enough. We literally have barbarians flowing into the country over the border and we are on the verge of bankruptcy. It's too late be the world superpower anymore. And anyway Chinese citizens have no say when their government gives away resources to another continent. Americans wouldn't tolerate it and rightly so. China is not just giving financial support to Africa, it is importing culture and nurturing loyalties. Africa WILL modernize sooner or later, and when it becomes a first world continent do we want it to lean to Western capitalist and democracy values? Or Chinese communist values and thug style low grade capitalism? It may be right to not send money overseas when taxpayers are already too burdened but there will be consequences.
We are plenty strong, and we could do the same thing as the Chinese. Long experience has suggested that the investment is unlikely to yield dividends. I think the Chinese are going to find that out to their own chagrin.
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We are plenty strong, and we could do the same thing as the Chinese. Long experience has suggested that the investment is unlikely to yield dividends. I think the Chinese are going to find that out to their own chagrin.
I hope you are right.
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The Middle East oil producing countries have far too much affect on the dollar and could seriously hurt the US by choosing another currency as the basis for purchasing it.
Becoming totally energy independent too suddenly might tip the Middle East I to its own form of chaos and unrest, causing the House of Saud to start wars they can’t win and destabilize far more than their region.
A slow steady shift away from middle eastern oil is a good way to stave off anarchy in areas where the muslim brotherhood might otherwise go nuclear.
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We are the world's largest oil producer, and a net exporter of energy. We no longer need the Middle East oil. We have centuries of domestic fossil fuel supply and finding more everyday. No need for "alternatives" either.
otoh - using their oil first will mean that we will still have lots of oil when their reserves have been deplated.
of course, by then people might not be willing to pump oil because IT WILL RUIN THE ENVIRONMENT....
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otoh - using their oil first will mean that we will still have lots of oil when their reserves have been deplated.
It is still not worth it; sending beaucoup bucks to our enemies to finance terrorists and weaken our economy. Cut them off and "drill baby drill". Actually, I like Steingar's proposal to use the money we save from sending overseas to develop more of our own energy supplies, to include wind, solar, hydro and nuclear. Use our oil for lubricants and such and for selling to international markets to raise capital for US! That will also weaken the market for Russian oil too.
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We are plenty strong, and we could do the same thing as the Chinese. Long experience has suggested that the investment is unlikely to yield dividends. I think the Chinese are going to find that out to their own chagrin.
They aren’t in it for dividends, they are in it for natural resources. Odds are, they will get plenty of that. For example, they are buying/just bought the most productive uranium mine in the world.
China doesn’t really care about profit, that is not their goal.
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They aren’t in it for dividends, they are in it for natural resources. Odds are, they will get plenty of that. For example, they are buying/just bought the most productive uranium mine in the world.
China doesn’t really care about profit, that is not their goal.
Everything has a price. If they spend more to dig it out o fat ground then they could buy it for, tis a bad deal. And just because they own a mine doesn't mean they can just dig stuff up out of it. Africa has it's own challenges.
Think about it this way, there are factories selling us stuff from Pakistan to Vietnam. But none in Africa. There are reasons for that.
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Everything has a price. If they spend more to dig it out o fat ground then they could buy it for, tis a bad deal. And just because they own a mine doesn't mean they can just dig stuff up out of it. Africa has it's own challenges.
Think about it this way, there are factories selling us stuff from Pakistan to Vietnam. But none in Africa. There are reasons for that.
Not made in Africa but raw materials are coming from there, like timber. As you pointed out, it’s corrupt too. Unlike U.S. and European markets, China doesn’t require sustainable logging practices in its supply chain. That’s where the wood is coming from that’s in a lot of our “made in China” furniture.
And you’re right about Africa having special challenges. With the exception of the Sentinelese, Africa has the most undeveloped societies on the planet. You can’t bring them into the modern world instantaneously. It happens in steps. Deplorable labor conditions for example, are better than no labor conditions at all (no jobs). The alternative is to continue living as primitive tribes. But that’s no longer possible, there are men with guns and do gooder NGOs and all sorts of remnants of colonialism- that ship has sailed; Africa can’t isolate itself like North Sentinel Island and refuse to join the global economy.
So it’s going to happen. If the West doesn’t want to step in and guide Africa into the 21st century as smoothly as possible with the least collateral damage (like ruined forest habitats) then China will, and is, but not with the higher standards of the West. Ultimately I guess it will all work out, if China could ever drag its ethics out of the sewer of collectivist tyranny. That’s what I worry China will export to Africa, while she imports its wood.
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China has a currency problem. They realistically have about thirty days of hard currency in action at any time.
American purchases keep their economy afloat. Shut off American purchasing and watch their country fall apart.
They've spent DECADES inflicting a damaging tariff inequality on American manufacturers and pussies like obama laid down and bent over for them.
President Trump promised to level the playing field, which many presidents gave nothing but lip service to, and now watch the flynn's and steingar's of the world whine like the little bitches they are.
Muslims have spent the last fifteen hundred years making war on each other and anyone else within their reach. Who fucking cares? Liberals who sold out to their masters in the swamp and their masters in the MIC. That's who.
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Think about it this way, there are factories selling us stuff from Pakistan to Vietnam. But none in Africa. There are reasons for that.
That’s actually a great observation. I never thought about that.
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That’s actually a great observation. I never thought about that.
Interesting. It is due to the instability of the labor force, and/or an lack of an entity that can incentivize a labor force to be stable, reliable and trainable.
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Interesting. It is due to the instability of the labor force, and/or an lack of an entity that can incentivize a labor force to be stable, reliable and trainable.
Basically, because it's still a third world place and they're stuck in a vicious circle. Can't have manufacturing until you have a stable society and you cannot have a stable society until you have an economic base: ie: manufacturing. China is attempting to break the cycle but as steingar points out, not doing it very well (corruption, etc.)
For successful manufacturing you need:
*Education (designers, managers, engineers) The best and smartest leave for the U.S. and Europe. Education is sub-par for the rest.
*Infrastructure (roads, energy, logistics such as shipping warehouses) Roads suck, power is spotty, internet and phone is unreliable. The geography makes this difficult as well; jungles, mountains
*Capital investments (money and stable currency) Difficult to get loans or investors, chronic poverty has resulted in bad money management practices. Unstable local markets.
*Cultural and political stability (religious conflicts, civil wars, corruption, anarchy) Even if these are overcome, they're too recent for companies to feel secure locating there.
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Basically, because it's still a third world place and they're stuck in a vicious circle. Can't have manufacturing until you have a stable society and you cannot have a stable society until you have an economic base: ie: manufacturing. China is attempting to break the cycle but as steingar points out, not doing it very well (corruption, etc.)
For successful manufacturing you need:
*Education (designers, managers, engineers) The best and smartest leave for the U.S. and Europe. Education is sub-par for the rest.
*Infrastructure (roads, energy, logistics such as shipping warehouses) Roads suck, power is spotty, internet and phone is unreliable. The geography makes this difficult as well; jungles, mountains
*Capital investments (money and stable currency) Difficult to get loans or investors, chronic poverty has resulted in bad money management practices. Unstable local markets.
*Cultural and political stability (religious conflicts, civil wars, corruption, anarchy) Even if these are overcome, they're too recent for companies to feel secure locating there.
The great British Empire tried to advance many countries in Africa - Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Rhodesia, South Africa, Sierra Leone, Nigeria, and a few others. All basically failures except for South Africa. If the Brits can’t do it, I’m not sure anyone else can pull it off.
To make any movement whatsoever, you have to end the corruption. I’m not sure that is possible.
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To make any movement whatsoever, you have to end the corruption. I’m not sure that is possible.
Possible, but not without much pain and effort.
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Watch the movie "The Dogs of War" with Chris Walken, Tom Berenger, and yes Ed O'Neil of Al Bundy fame. It will tell you all you need to know about neo-colonialism and Africa.
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Everything has a price. If they spend more to dig it out o fat ground then they could buy it for, tis a bad deal. And just because they own a mine doesn't mean they can just dig stuff up out of it. Africa has it's own challenges.
Think about it this way, there are factories selling us stuff from Pakistan to Vietnam. But none in Africa. There are reasons for that.
Well yeah - like you said, the reasons are the corruption, graft and backworldedness of Africa. It may or may not cost more, but I don't have any numbers one way or another. They paid 107 million for it. At $25/lb, that's about 4.28 million pounds of uranium they need to get just to break even at that.
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Possible, but not without much pain and effort.
Yep. They’ll eventually come around but it might take another century or two.
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The great British Empire tried to advance many countries in Africa - Egypt, Sudan, Kenya, Rhodesia, South Africa, Sierra Leone, Nigeria, and a few others. All basically failures except for South Africa. If the Brits can’t do it, I’m not sure anyone else can pull it off.
To make any movement whatsoever, you have to end the corruption. I’m not sure that is possible.
Sorry, but the "great" colonial powers didn't try and advance anyone. They just tried to make as much money as they possibly could as fast as they possibly could.
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Sorry, but the "great" colonial powers didn't try and advance anyone. They just tried to make as much money as they possibly could as fast as they possibly could.
I agree their intent was to exploit the native population for the benefit if England (or other European country) and their empire. However, the consequences were that they installed law and order, gave people jobs, and a purpose and had to educate them in order to get the productivity they wanted. The end result was a better situation than they had prior to the colonial power whether it was England, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, etc.
If you talk to people that were there or study the situations, throwing out the colonial power resulted in civil war, genocide and absolute tribal CHAOS.
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Sorry, but the "great" colonial powers didn't try and advance anyone. They just tried to make as much money as they possibly could as fast as they possibly could.
Is that what Great Britain had in mind for America? Australia? Egypt? Hong Kong?
How long would “exploitation” last if the populace didn’t become educated - didn’t become “English?”
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Is that what Great Britain had in mind for America? Australia? Egypt? Hong Kong?
How long would “exploitation” last if the populace didn’t become educated - didn’t become “English?”
I doubt India would be anywhere near as advanced without Britain colonizing them. It has given them a huge advantage.
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Sorry, but the "great" colonial powers didn't try and advance anyone. They just tried to make as much money as they possibly could as fast as they possibly could.
Are you talking about just Africa or Western European colonization in general? No matter, it’s all the same. Just going to take a lot longer in Africa.
If not for the exploitation of the Americas by Western Europe, Native Americans would still be in the Stone Age. Same with Australia. Yes their motive is profit and political advantage but colonizers also bring culture and advanced technology to the area and it becomes “developed”. All in all that’s a good thing. Unless you think living in the Stone Age was better.
In many ways it was. People didn’t eat a lot of processed carbs. But the human race is advancing. What would you have preferred? Let Europe remain advanced but keep the Americas living in primitive societies like the Sentinelese? Let the planet have large separate branches of evolution? It would never work of course. There would be no stopping someone in the the advanced culture (the one with ships) from eventually conquering the less advanced.
When people complain about how Europe exploited primitive cultures I always wonder what their suggested alternative is. There is a lot of wailing over how the colonizers brought diseases and wiped out most native populations (as if they did it on purpose which is mostly a myth). Unfortunately there was no avoiding that. Humans evolved separately so evolved different immunities. When technology was advanced enough to being them back together (ships) there was no avoiding the immunological clash. Darwinism weeded out the natives whose immune systems couldn’t cope. It also worked in reverse (malaria). Cruel maybe but that is nature. What would you have as an alternative?
I apologize if you aren’t speaking about colonialism in general. It’s true that it is exploitive and probably more so in Africa than elsewhere. Other than Christian missions, colonizers are never trying to “advance” the natives. It’s always about profit, or new lands to live in (because you are leaving bad conditions at home) or gaining political power through new strategic locations and so on. Human behavior is greedy. That’s normal. What do you suggest? Let them remain primitive?
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Rush, to leftists the White European Man is always bad no matter the outcome. The great majority of situations where Europeans colonized an area became a NET POSITIVE for those inhabitants, but Columbus was a murderer, yada, yada, yada.....
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I doubt India would be anywhere near as advanced without Britain colonizing them. It has given them a huge advantage.
India has an advantage, but they are slowly losing it. My experience is that they are unable to maintain the British level of infrastructure, so as things crumble, they are not efficiently replaced.
I was last over there about 2 years ago. While I was there, I watched as they replaced about 200' of street curb. When I arrived, they were putting in the wood forms. When I left 4 weeks later, they had not poured concrete yet. Entire parts of sidewalks were missing and there's no streetlights. If you're not paying attention, you could step into a 2 ft deep hole into the drain under the sidewalk and put your foot down in who knows what. While I was there, the festival of Ganesh Chaturthi happened and in preparation, everyone started cleaning the streets. But otherwise, they're filthy the rest of the year, even to the point of having so much dirt on the them that you can no longer see the lane markers - not that anyone there cares about lane markers.
Certainly a shithole.
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India has an advantage, but they are slowly losing it. My experience is that they are unable to maintain the British level of infrastructure, so as things crumble, they are not efficiently replaced.
I was last over there about 2 years ago. While I was there, I watched as they replaced about 200' of street curb. When I arrived, they were putting in the wood forms. When I left 4 weeks later, they had not poured concrete yet. Entire parts of sidewalks were missing and there's no streetlights. If you're not paying attention, you could step into a 2 ft deep hole into the drain under the sidewalk and put your foot down in who knows what. While I was there, the festival of Ganesh Chaturthi happened and in preparation, everyone started cleaning the streets. But otherwise, they're filthy the rest of the year, even to the point of having so much dirt on the them that you can no longer see the lane markers - not that anyone there cares about lane markers.
Certainly a shithole.
Sounds like the unionized municipal government employee workforce in the US.
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Just about all of the infrastructure put in by colonial powers was highly specialized to get goods and materials out of the country. In most places it didn't benefit the local populations at all, who were mostly subjugated. In the case of the Africans many were outright enslaved in their own lands.
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Just about all of the infrastructure put in by colonial powers was highly specialized to get goods and materials out of the country. In most places it didn't benefit the local populations at all, who were mostly subjugated. In the case of the Africans many were outright enslaved in their own lands.
Just curious, does it bother you that in our modern world that Islam still promotes slavery?
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Just curious, does it bother you that in our modern world that Islam still promotes slavery?
I don’t believe
Be he has permission to be offended by muslim slave taking, trading and brutality.
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Sounds like the unionized municipal government employee workforce in the US.
The US workforce is not close to that level of incompetence.
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The US workforce is not close to that level of incompetence.
Sometimes its difficult to distinguish between incompetence and willfulness.
When you see 7 guys standing around, 1 holding a clipboard, one digging a hole and 5 laughing, smoking and talking, that is tolerated willfulness. I got those numbers while watching a city work crew while I was stopped at a stop light yesterday. For around 3 minutes. While NOBODY else was coming from any other direction.
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https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/27/flashback-2016-secretary-of-state-john-kerry-admits-president-obama-intentionally-armed-isis-in-syria-audio-recording-and-transcript/
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https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/27/flashback-2016-secretary-of-state-john-kerry-admits-president-obama-intentionally-armed-isis-in-syria-audio-recording-and-transcript/
Obama and Hillary did the same thing in Libya, and Benghazi resulted with four dead Americans including a leftist, Gay, Democrat Ambassador who was one of their "team" that was allowed to die because he knew too much. Nice, huh? He seemed like a good guy too, other than his political ideology.
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Obama and Hillary did the same thing in Libya, and Benghazi resulted with four dead Americans including a leftist, Gay, Democrat Ambassador who was one of their "team" that was allowed to die because he knew too much. Nice, huh? He seemed like a good guy too, other than his political ideology.
This is what happens when amateurs are running the show.
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Sometimes its difficult to distinguish between incompetence and willfulness.
When you see 7 guys standing around, 1 holding a clipboard, one digging a hole and 5 laughing, smoking and talking, that is tolerated willfulness. I got those numbers while watching a city work crew while I was stopped at a stop light yesterday. For around 3 minutes. While NOBODY else was coming from any other direction.
Yeah, but still the work gets done relatively quickly. It doesn't take more than a month to pour 200 ft of cement gutter