PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Lucifer on May 22, 2020, 06:37:15 AM
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https://spectator.org/were-lockdowns-about-science-covid-19-experts-models/
Every state and local politician who imposed lockdowns pursuant to the COVID-19 pandemic claimed their decisions were based on “the science.” In reality, they ignored the advice of leading epidemiologists, relying instead on statistical models produced by “experts” with histories of wildly inaccurate projections. The most notorious of these oracles was, of course, Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London, who claimed that coronavirus could kill 2.2 million Americans. Based on such apocalyptic predictions, combined with overcautious warnings from Beltway bureaucrats like Dr. Anthony Fauci, all but a few governors implemented economically destructive stay-at-home orders — despite the reservations of respected epidemiologists who questioned the logic of lockdowns from the beginning.
Included among the genuine experts who advised that far more information was needed before such draconian countermeasures could be scientifically justified were John P. A. Ioannidis of Stanford University, Michael T. Osterholm of the University of Minnesota, and Knut M. Wittkowski, formerly of Rockefeller University. All three pointed out flaws in the assumptions upon which officials based their lockdown orders. Ioannidis was the first to publicly question the reasoning behind these edicts. In an essay published in STAT on March 17, he wrote that the precipitous response to the pandemic was “a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco” and that decisions of monumental significance were being made without truly dependable data concerning how many people had actually been infected:
The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to [the coronavirus] are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.
The point Ioannidis was attempting to make involved the wildly exaggerated COVID-19 fatality rate promulgated by the World Health Organization (WHO). He declared that entity’s official 3.4 percent fatality rate meaningless because it wasn’t based on a reliable testing regimen. Testing has been disproportionately performed on patients with severe symptoms while they are still infected with the virus. Consequently, selection bias renders it impossible to draw valid conclusions about how many have been infected, which means it is also impossible to calculate a reliable fatality rate. To acquire useful infection and death rates it’s necessary to conduct random serological surveys using tests that detect both active infections as well as antibodies remaining in the systems of those who have been infected in the past.
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They used the Man Made Climate Change Models, but crossed out the name and wrote Covid-19 Pandemic in with Crayon.
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Initially, I think they were.
Now it's about control and power of little dictators.
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Initially, I think they were.
Now it's about control and power of little dictators.
Initially, it was based on certain tenets of science, along with a lot of ignorance and fear.
Now it's about control and power of little (and some not-so-little) dictators.
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There is some science behind aspects of the responses to COVID-19.
However, there is much ignorance and misunderstanding of safety and risk acceptance.
Years ago there was a saying that no one got fired/criticized for recommending IBM computers (vs some other brands). Now it's no one will get fired/criticized for wanting to delay reopening "out of an abundance of caution"
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
oh look, the professor demonstrates his reading comprehension skills.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
Yeah, the Progressives (Democrats) closed all the roads because of the 40,000 deaths per year to avoid those deaths, right? They also stopped all the elective medical procedures that are risky because of General Anesthesia too. No more boob jobs or Liposuction! There are a million more analogies.
At what point do you stop living life over a relatively normal Flu type virus? We've never had a LOCK DOWN before. Why now? Get rid of Trump?
Outlaw small planes, motorcycles, etc.? For SAFETY? If we can just save one life, right?
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Steingar will be along soon to tell us this is seriously scientific and worthy of enforcement by LEOs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=37&v=2AW1MaFlQBc&feature=emb_title
Haha Hahahaha Ha!!!! What a farce! But appealing to the lascivious among us. 🤣🤣🤣
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He's just trolling as usual, and content free to boot.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
So you still can’t make the connection between money and lives? Whether or not there is a deadly second wave, there will be (already are) lives lost to the economic crash.
I still want to see a model of projected lives lost to the shutdown. Looks like I’m going to have to do one myself. Do you want to help me with that? I can send you a preliminary sketch.
Here is what we know: People will die from the virus and it will proceed through the population until herd immunity is reached, after which deaths will drastically decline. So there is an upward trend, then a back down trend in deaths over time.
We also know: People will die from the economic shutdown, but at first far fewer than from the virus, however, as the shutdown results in businesses permanently closing, industries failing, unemployment rising, poverty increasing, food supplies being disrupted and possibly worldwide famine, the deaths will climb as long as the shutdown continues, and they will continue to climb indefinitely. There is no “herd immunity”.
So we have two lines of rising death, one that peaks and then falls, and one that continues to climb unless we reopen the economy. Can you at least admit that much?
It is easy to count the virus deaths, but very difficult to calculate the deaths due to the shutdown, however that does not mean they won’t be real. If we had an honest media and honest university researchers, we would be hearing some kind of projections attempting to quantify death due to the shutdown, but, crickets.
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^^^^^He doesn't care about LOGICAL arguments. We make LIFE/$$$ decisions every day and have forever. We accept elements of risk because we have to in order to live our lives. Sometimes people die.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
Somehow I missed the post/s that indicated that.
The way I see it:
(A) A certain number of people are going to get the disease, and some of them will die.
Or
(B) A certain number of people are going to get the disease, and some of them will die, AND we willingly trash the economy, causing even more suffering, poverty and death.
You seem to choose B.
I choose A.
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Somehow I missed the post/s that indicated that.
The way I see it:
(A) A certain number of people are going to get the disease, and some of them will die.
Or
(B) A certain number of people are going to get the disease, and some of them will die, AND we willingly trash the economy, causing even more suffering, poverty and death.
You seem to choose B.
I choose A.
Here is the logical disconnect. We are all going to get it anyway. The shutdown is just prolonging the inevitable. The only additional lives lost, supposedly prevented by the shutdown, are those resulting from overwhelming the healthcare system. That is all the shutdown was supposed to prevent. It was never intended to prevent us all from getting the virus and some of us dying.
The healthcare system is not overwhelmed anymore and in most places in the U.S was never overwhelmed. So there is zero reason to remain shutdown.
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Here is the logical disconnect. We are all going to get it anyway. The shutdown is just prolonging the inevitable. The only additional lives lost, supposedly prevented by the shutdown, are those resulting from overwhelming the healthcare system. That is all the shutdown was supposed to prevent. It was never intended to prevent us all from getting the virus and some of us dying.
The healthcare system is not overwhelmed anymore and in most places in the U.S was never overwhelmed. So there is zero reason to remain shutdown.
Exactly. The Healthcare system was NEVER overwhelmed, yet they continued the Lock Down and fear mongering. It could have been a 2 - 4 week thing and then back to normal WITH other precautions for the higher risk people.
Steingar doesn't care because it is not affecting him, nor his family personally. He seems fine with tens of millions losing jobs, businesses, homes and families destroyed.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1263866992890707970
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Exactly. The Healthcare system was NEVER overwhelmed, yet they continued the Lock Down and fear mongering. It could have been a 2 - 4 week thing and then make to normal WITH other precautions for the higher risk people.
Steingar doesn't care because it is not affecting him, nor his family personally. He seems fine with tens of millions losing jobs, businesses, homes and families destroyed.
This is exactly correct. The people at high risk can be kept isolated. Ban visits to nursing homes, people with underlying conditions stay home and work remotely. When you do make contact with people at risk, wear a mask, keep 6 feet apart, wash hands frequently. There is no reason we cannot do all these things AND let everyone else open up and get back to normal.
The people at risk can stay locked down until there is herd immunity, then the virus will become scarce and then they can rejoin the world. But when we are all locked down, and we can’t get herd immunity, then the people at risk will remain at risk longer. That’s not helping them.
I have this exact situation with my 93 year old mother. She is isolated at home as she should be. I canceled my visit to her this month. If the country had stayed open and the virus burned through the population, then by fall there would be herd immunity and I could safely visit her. I have rescheduled my visit for September. But now I don’t think there will be enough herd immunity by September for her to be safe. So I might have to cancel that visit too.
But the worst thing is she cannot go to the senior center every day, and she is withering at home. It is becoming a desperate situation. Going to the center every day is what was literally keeping her alive. It gave her exercise, it gave her socializing, it gave her purpose. Now, sitting at home she is depressed and sedentary, getting weaker and weaker and more and more depressed by the day.
She could handle a month or two of shutdown, but now there is no end in sight. No herd immunity out there and as long as healthy young people refuse to get the virus, there never will be herd immunity. Don’t talk to me about vaccine. That’s a pipe dream. This is an RNA virus, a coronavirus, it mutates, we cannot wait for a vaccine, that’s insanity. My mother will be dead before then.
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https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2020/05/20/gretchen-whitmer-allows-gay-swingers-club-to-operate-while-barber-loses-license-n409648
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Two people per hour die from skin cancer, effective immediately all citizens will be required to wear jean, long sleeve shirts and hats when outside. All sales of swim suits will discontinued.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
Tell us again when your paychecks were stopped?
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People have lost their businesses, their life savings. Other people have lost jobs from companies that couldn’t hold on.
Yet we have elitist that live in bubbles who are just perfectly fine watching others go through this living hell.
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Elitists like Mikey are so full of shit they don’t even recognize that they are pretending to be outraged and using other people’s’ words because they stopped thinking for themselves decades ago. Steingar’s entire existence Is based on lies he has been taught, is forced by the rules of political correctness to believe and is too weak and stupid to understand that nobody believes his bullshit anymore.
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
I'd call you a dick, but that would be an insult to dicks.
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https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1263866992890707970
Apparently, Fauci is now considered a conservative.
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Apparently, Fauci is now considered a conservative.
So, now he is saying everything he's been recommending (forcing) for the last two months is null and void???
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Once again, Conservatives care not who dies so long as the money flows. You'll all get your wish soon, gentlemen.
I'm surprised at this from a Woke professor. There are ladies here, too. It's terribly misogynistic to assume everyone here is a gentleman. Please report to this board's HR department for retraining.
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Apparently, Fauci is now considered a conservative.
Joe, Joe, keep up. Any and all liberals, regardless of their far leftism, can be identified as conservative should it serve the D hive mind and the assimilation of innocent conservative species.
When conservatism starts to become widely noticed, seen for what it really is in the real world, and thus more popular, the leftie scramble begins to at least appear to hop on the train.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/11/22/barack-obama-conservative/?arc404=true
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I thought Fauci had simply finally figured out what a lot of us have known from the beginning, and what Michael apparently has yet to.
It doesn’t have anything to do with conservatism or liberalism, it’s just fact.
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https://pjmedia.com/culture/rabbi-michael-barclay/2020/05/21/science-is-starting-to-scare-me-n412181
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https://pjmedia.com/culture/rabbi-michael-barclay/2020/05/21/science-is-starting-to-scare-me-n412181
I am starting to get scared of “science”.
Not the scientific method that I grew up with of hypothesis, proof, and conclusion. But this strange and questionable “science” upon which public policies are now getting based. It is starting to remind me all too much of other policies based on “science” in the past. Historically, when public policies have been based in the science of the time, the policies have often led to dangerous and painful results.
When over 100 Chicago clergy opened their doors this past weekend to provide the essential services of spiritual nurturing through prayer in defiance of the stay-at-home order of Illinois Gov. Pritzker (D), the governor tweeted that he had “sympathy for leaders struggling with those choices — but not for those so intent on disregarding science & logic that they put people’s lives at risk.”
Governors Cuomo (D-New York) and Newsom (D-Calif.) have imposed draconian measures of quarantine and isolation based on “science” and in the process have determined that cannabis clubs, abortion clinics, and bike shops are all more “essential” than religious institutions.
The World Health Organization claimed on April 6 that science had determined that face masks were unnecessary for healthy people, and then determined by May that the science showed that everyone should wear a mask. Mayor Garcetti of Los Angeles has determined that the science shows that everyone needs to wear a mask as soon as leaving the house to prevent further spread of the virus.
Like most everything else in society, the LEFT has politicized and weaponized "SCIENCE". We've seen it with Man Made Climate Change where bogus "models" are used to advance their phony agenda where all the "fixes" are income and wealth redistribution, more taxes, more restrictions and more control by big government.
Now, we see it with COVID-19, the Chinese Virus. Of course the MEDIA will not admit the "Science" was wrong, nor that the people pushing the fake science were wrong. Because, the Media is a big part of this big LIE. We also see how government gleefully enacts unconstitutional edicts using "safety and health" as the excuse. When the dust settles, as it is starting to do so, it is becoming obvious this was a huge over reaction to a Flu like virus and all these shut downs that forced economic collapse were totally unnecessary. Yet the MEDIA will not hold those responsible accountable. WE MUST HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.
The Democrats, Media, and the Totalitarian types worldwide owe us TRILLIONS of $$$. I think we should take it out of their collective hides.
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This
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(https://forums.propilotworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15964&d=1590263708)
"https://forums.propilotworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15964&d=1590263708"
doesn't seem to work...
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Exactly. The Healthcare system was NEVER overwhelmed, yet they continued the Lock Down and fear mongering. It could have been a 2 - 4 week thing and then back to normal WITH other precautions for the higher risk people.
Steingar doesn't care because it is not affecting him, nor his family personally. He seems fine with tens of millions losing jobs, businesses, homes and families destroyed.
Why would he care? He’s a tenured professor and can sit with his thumb up his ass for a year and still get paid.
Wait until universities demand full tuition this fall while only offering remote classes, or some other half-measures.
I hope universities get destroyed over this.
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Why would he care? He’s a tenured professor and can sit with his thumb up his ass for a year and still get paid.
Wait until universities demand full tuition this fall while only offering remote classes, or some other half-measures.
I hope universities get destroyed over this.
It's actually beginning. People are now seriously questioning the unreal and exorbitant cost of these universities, when much can actually be done online ( and for the record, I realize some things do require a classroom).
Mike Rowe has had some excellent columns on just what a ripoff these universities have become.
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It's actually beginning. People are now seriously questioning the unreal and exorbitant cost of these universities, when much can actually be done online ( and for the record, I realize some things do require a classroom).
Mike Rowe has had some excellent columns on just what a ripoff these universities have become.
Mike Rowe is awesome. My daughter had the honor of interviewing him in person at some sort of scouting jamboree. I like the way he thinks.
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I did the majority of my bachelors online. It's amazing how cheap it is when you aren't paying for state of the art fitness facilities, cafeterias, support staff, etc. And you can do it at your own pace.
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It's actually beginning. People are now seriously questioning the unreal and exorbitant cost of these universities, when much can actually be done online ( and for the record, I realize some things do require a classroom).
Mike Rowe has had some excellent columns on just what a ripoff these universities have become.
I hope the entire University system has to take a HUGE revenue cut because more and more people attend classes on line. Professors, and Administrators should make a fraction of what they make, especially considering how little they work and get Summers off as well as other long breaks. It is a GOVERNMENT BACKED SCAM.
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I hope the entire University system has to take a HUGE revenue cut because more and more people attend classes on line. Professors, and Administrators should make a fraction of what they make, especially considering how little they work and get Summers off as well as other long breaks. It is a SCAM.
For the few classes I took at an actual university, I always wondered why I was paying full price for a TA to teach a class.
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I did the majority of my bachelors online. It's amazing how cheap it is when you aren't paying for state of the art fitness facilities, cafeterias, support staff, etc. And you can do it at your own pace.
You young bucks. I went to undergrad and grad school before the Internet even existed. Walked to school uphill barefoot too.
Get off my lawn.
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Get off my lawn too!
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I can’t say it better than this guy:
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clearly you don't understand how effective the lockdown has been. Almost all the States have a Ro of less than one.
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https://academic.oup.com/aje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/aje/kwaa093/5847586
Abstract
More than 1.6 million Americans have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and >10 times that number carry antibodies to it. High-risk patients presenting with progressing symptomatic disease have only hospitalization treatment with its high mortality. An outpatient treatment that prevents hospitalization is desperately needed. Two candidate medications have been widely discussed: remdesivir, and hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin. Remdesivir has shown mild effectiveness in hospitalized inpatients, but no trials have been registered in outpatients. Hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin has been widely misrepresented in both clinical reports and public media, and outpatient trials results are not expected until September. Early outpatient illness is very different than later hospitalized florid disease and the treatments differ. Evidence about use of hydroxychloroquine alone, or of hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin in inpatients, is irrelevant concerning efficacy of the pair in early high-risk outpatient disease. Five studies, including two controlled clinical trials, have demonstrated significant major outpatient treatment efficacy. Hydroxychloroquine+azithromycin has been used as standard-of-care in more than 300,000 older adults with multicomorbidities, with estimated proportion diagnosed with cardiac arrhythmias attributable to the medications 47/100,000 users, of which estimated mortality is <20%, 9/100,000 users, compared to the 10,000 Americans now dying each week. These medications need to be widely available and promoted immediately for physicians to prescribe.
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https://academic.oup.com/aje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/aje/kwaa093/5847586
We are in the Twilight Zone. People refusing to consider this drug just because they associate it with Trump. Widespread hate and disinformation about a common safe drug nobody batted an eye about until Trump uttered its name.
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We are in the Twilight Zone. People refusing to consider this drug just because they associate it with Trump. Widespread hate and disinformation about a common safe drug nobody batted an eye about until Trump uttered its name.
Trump should have said stay away from it, and he should have demanded the lockdowns continue and everyone wear mask. ::)
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We are in the Twilight Zone. People refusing to consider this drug just because they associate it with Trump. Widespread hate and disinformation about a common safe drug nobody batted an eye about until Trump uttered its name.
Most people aren't refusing it because they hate Trump. They are refusing it because the MSM and the entrenched Trump haters are telling them it will kill them because THEY hate Trump.
A dying person would kiss Trump on the lips if their doctor told them it would give them a chance to live.
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Most people aren't refusing it because they hate Trump. They are refusing it because the MSM and the entrenched Trump haters are telling them it will kill them because THEY hate Trump.
A dying person would kiss Trump on the lips if their doctor told them it would give them a chance to live.
You are right.
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https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372
As the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic continues to explode, hospital systems are scrambling to intensify their measures for protecting patients and health care workers from the virus. An increasing number of frontline providers are wondering whether this effort should include universal use of masks by all health care workers. Universal masking is already standard practice in Hong Kong, Singapore, and other parts of Asia and has recently been adopted by a handful of U.S. hospitals.
We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.
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https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372
Just kill me now. This is gonna become permanent.
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Just kill me now. This is gonna become permanent.
This may sound cold, but you shouldn't be surprised if COVID-19 is with us for quite some time. One obvious aspect is that funding for any research even remotely related to COVID-19 is almost a gimme.
But also consider it appears that the viruses responsible for the Hong Kong flu panedmic in 1968-1969 are still with us (part of the suite of viruses that make up the season influenza). (I can't remember where I read that, maybe a CDC page)
And consider that humans have eradicated exactly one virus (small pox).
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This may sound cold, but you shouldn't be surprised if COVID-19 is with us for quite some time. One obvious aspect is that funding for any research even remotely related to COVID-19 is almost a gimme.
But also consider it appears that the viruses responsible for the Hong Kong flu panedmic in 1968-1969 are still with us (part of the suite of viruses that make up the season influenza). (I can't remember where I read that, maybe a CDC page)
And consider that humans have eradicated exactly one virus (small pox).
Yep. It’s just one more in an endless stream of viruses.
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The new coronavirus is real.
The response to the coronavirus is hyped. And in time, this hype will be revealed as politically hoaxed.
In fact, COVID-19 will go down as one of the political world’s biggest, most shamefully overblown, overhyped, overly and irrationally inflated and outright deceptively flawed responses to a health matter in American history, one that was carried largely on the lips of medical professionals who have no business running a national economy or government.
The facts are this: COVID-19 is a real disease that sickens some, proves fatal to others, mostly the elderly — and does nothing to the vast majority.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/28/coronavirus-hype-biggest-political-hoax-in-history/
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Yep, we were had.
Question is, what are we willing to do to prevent this from happening again? And trust me, if we don’t, we will see this again.
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Yep, we were had.
Question is, what are we willing to do to prevent this from happening again? And trust me, if we don’t, we will see this again.
This is the stuff of armed revolution. No NSA, I am not advocating that, just that it has occurred in history for much less. That is a fact.
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With COVID locking down not working any more, what better to capture the attention of the sheep than a good old race riot?
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I'm sure to lose a few friends when I post this.
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Just kill me now. This is gonna become permanent.
Not for this guy.