PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: JeffDG on March 26, 2016, 06:49:31 PM
-
I've wrestled with this question for some time.
Ever since I had the temerity to post something that was negative about Trump, and the reaction was "Well, he's better than Hillary" and I was not convinced by that, I had to think it through more deeply and come to a decision: If it's Trump v. Hillary, will I vote for Trump? The answer, for the reasons below, is "No."
First: I believe that Trump winning the Republican nomination will be a disaster for that party, and for the conservative movement that has made the Republican party it's electoral home. That said, a Trump Administration will be an order of magnitude worse.
The problem is illustrated by a classic example of a firecracker going off in your hand. If your hand is open, it'll hurt like hell, but it's not likely to do any permanent damage. However, if your hand is closed around the firecracker, you better get used to your friends calling you "Lefty".
Trump and Hillary are both big-government liberals, antithetical to the conservative movement. They are, effectively, both firecrackers. Hillary, however, is undeniably outside of the conservative movement and party...President Hillary is a firecracker going off in an open hand, painful, yes, but unable to do permanent damage to the conservative movement. Trump, however, being "inside" the movement, will do immeasurably more damage to the idea of conservatism in America, and his impact will be far longer lasting. Because he is "inside", forevermore, the conservative movement will be tarred with the "Trump" label. Unlike liberals, who feel no need to answer for their intellectual forebears (Woodrow Wilson and resegregating the civil service, Margaret Sanger and her desire to use abortion to wipe out the undesireable races), conservatives are forever made to apologize for any misdeeds of anyone before us. Guess what, Trump will now, for decades, be thrown up as a "conservative" exemplar. If he becomes President, with his clear lack of any depth of understanding of issues, it's going to be an unmitigated disaster.
So, will I vote for Hillary? Not with a gun to my head. However, I will not vote for Trump as a Republican nominee either. If he wins the nomination, it is my sincere hope that he be defeated in the general election, and if that is by Hillary, then so be it. The conservative movement will recover to fight again in 2020 with President Hillary. With President Trump, I fear it will not.
-
Hmmm. Gotta think about this one.
-
If he becomes President, with his clear lack of any depth of understanding of issues, it's going to be an unmitigated disaster.
No, no, no you silly boy. He will have the world's best advisors by his side and will heed their every word. He is selfless and only has the American people's best interest in mind.
-
I've wrestled with this question for some time.
Ever since I had the temerity to post something that was negative about Trump, and the reaction was "Well, he's better than Hillary" and I was not convinced by that, I had to think it through more deeply and come to a decision: If it's Trump v. Hillary, will I vote for Trump? The answer, for the reasons below, is "No."
First: I believe that Trump winning the Republican nomination will be a disaster for that party, and for the conservative movement that has made the Republican party it's electoral home. That said, a Trump Administration will be an order of magnitude worse.
The problem is illustrated by a classic example of a firecracker going off in your hand. If your hand is open, it'll hurt like hell, but it's not likely to do any permanent damage. However, if your hand is closed around the firecracker, you better get used to your friends calling you "Lefty".
Trump and Hillary are both big-government liberals, antithetical to the conservative movement. They are, effectively, both firecrackers. Hillary, however, is undeniably outside of the conservative movement and party...President Hillary is a firecracker going off in an open hand, painful, yes, but unable to do permanent damage to the conservative movement. Trump, however, being "inside" the movement, will do immeasurably more damage to the idea of conservatism in America, and his impact will be far longer lasting. Because he is "inside", forevermore, the conservative movement will be tarred with the "Trump" label. Unlike liberals, who feel no need to answer for their intellectual forebears (Woodrow Wilson and resegregating the civil service, Margaret Sanger and her desire to use abortion to wipe out the undesireable races), conservatives are forever made to apologize for any misdeeds of anyone before us. Guess what, Trump will now, for decades, be thrown up as a "conservative" exemplar. If he becomes President, with his clear lack of any depth of understanding of issues, it's going to be an unmitigated disaster.
So, will I vote for Hillary? Not with a gun to my head. However, I will not vote for Trump as a Republican nominee either. If he wins the nomination, it is my sincere hope that he be defeated in the general election, and if that is by Hillary, then so be it. The conservative movement will recover to fight again in 2020 with President Hillary. With President Trump, I fear it will not.
I guess I can understand your vote based on your opinions.
But they are just opinions, based on your predictions of what either one might do once in office. I admit that my crystal ball is a bit foggy in that regard.
But no way, no how would I vote for Hillary, unless perhaps she promised to return the stolen China. I"d vote for Sanders before I'd vote for Hillary. At least Sanders is not a known lying, cheating, self-serving hypocrite. And I'd vote for Trump before I'd vote for Sanders.
-
Doesn't matter anyway. Jeff can't vote because he is not a US citizen.
-
Doesn't matter anyway. Jeff can't vote because he is not a US citizen.
More content free trolling.
Paperwork is in the queue.
-
More content free trolling.
Paperwork is in the queue.
Do yourself a favor and delay filing the paperwork until after the election. That way you can rightfully say that whatever messed up president we get isn't your fault.
-
More content free trolling.
Paperwork is in the queue.
Was he correct in that you are not a citizen?
-
Do yourself a favor and delay filing the paperwork until after the election. That way you can rightfully say that whatever messed up president we get isn't your fault.
Do your self a favor so you can claim its not your fault. America's future can be decided by others, great advice there.
-
Was he correct in that you are not a citizen?
At the moment, yes. I've never hidden that fact from anyone...especially considering the fact I have a thread on here talking about my naturalization application.
-
At the moment, yes. I've never hidden that fact from anyone...especially considering the fact I have a thread on here talking about my naturalization application.
I guess you're being thoroughly vetted. ;D
-
I agree with you. I've said it before that I would have a hard time voting for Trump because he is not a true conservative and could set the conservative movement back for decades. I can probably stomach a Hilary presidency for 4 years if it led to a true conservative being nominated and winning. The thing that concerns me the most is Hilary's 3-4 SCOTUS nominees. That would be far more devastating than Hilary herself could ever be.
Trump is the angry vote, not necessarily the right vote. Americans are tired of the game as usual and want someone who can shake things up in Washington, D.C. Trump will certainly do that, but to what end? Like you, I will not vote for Hilary. I'm just not sure that I can vote for Trump.
-
I agree with you. I've said it before that I would have a hard time voting for Trump because he is not a true conservative and could set the conservative movement back for decades. I can probably stomach a Hilary presidency for 4 years if it led to a true conservative being nominated and winning. The thing that concerns me the most is Hilary's 3-4 SCOTUS nominees. That would be far more devastating than Hilary herself could ever be.
Trump is the angry vote, not necessarily the right vote. Americans are tired of the game as usual and want someone who can shake things up in Washington, D.C. Trump will certainly do that, but to what end? Like you, I will not vote for Hilary. I'm just not sure that I can vote for Trump.
You know, sometimes you just have to sacrifice a whole country to get what you want ;)
-
You know, sometimes you just have to sacrifice a whole country to get what you want ;)
If your implication is that I would rather have Hilary than Trump in order to "get what I want", then I suppose that's not entirely inaccurate. I would rather not have Hilary (or Sanders, just to be clear), but I'm concerned that Trump will do significant damage to the Republican Party/conservative movement. Trump is a wild card, we just don't know what we're going to get with him. I've heard his speeches, I've read his positions and it sounds like someone who is playing to the angry crowd. Just to be clear, though: I do not want a Hilary presidency.
-
and could set the conservative movement back for decades.
The conservative movement has already been set back by the establishment and come November will be torpedoed and sunk. The establishment cannot even run anyone palatable to the party and the previous 2 presidential candidates were a joke.
The die hard conservatives are losing their fuckin' minds right now and too the point of throwing the election to the democrats.
-
The conservative movement has already been set back by the establishment and come November will be torpedoed and sunk. The establishment cannot even run anyone palatable to the party and the previous 2 presidential candidates were a joke.
The die hard conservatives are losing their fuckin' minds right now and too the point of throwing the election to the democrats.
As well they should be. Conservatives are tired of the establishment running things the way they are. There is likely to be an even worse fracturing of the party, and possible split altogether, if the establishment puts Paul Ryan or whomever they're floating around this week for the nomination.
I find it so strange that true conservatives are looked at with such disdain when all they want is for the Constitution to be followed.
-
It has to be maddening that Trump is able to attract so many to his side. He certainly has an attraction to more people then Cruz or Kasich.
-
I agree with you. I've said it before that I would have a hard time voting for Trump because he is not a true conservative
...
You won't vote for Trump because you feel he isn't a true conservative.
But you might vote for Hillary, who HATES conservatives?????
Where is that "scratching my head" emoticon?
-
You won't vote for Trump because you feel he isn't a true conservative.
But you might vote for Hillary, who HATES conservatives?????
Where is that "scratching my head" emoticon?
I specifically said I would note vote for Hilary:
Like you, I will not vote for Hilary. I'm just not sure that I can vote for Trump.
I was pretty clear about that. If Trump gets elected then it will set the conservative movement back even further than it already has been. There's two issues at play here:
1.) Stopping Hilary from getting elected;
2.) If Trump gets elected, the devastation that'll do to the conservative movement
-
The die hard conservatives are losing their fuckin' minds right now and too the point of throwing the election to the democrats.
ie. Hillary OR Trump, both Democrats.
-
In case some of you have been sleeping, and it does appear that way, there is no conservative movement remaining. The true conservatives (whatever that definition is this week) are a minority, and a small one at that.
-
In case some of you have been sleeping, and it does appear that way, there is no conservative movement remaining. The true conservatives (whatever that definition is this week) are a minority, and a small one at that.
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
But there are a lot of us "Mostly" Conservatives. We (actually, I'm speaking for myself here) believe in conservative government spending, but we also believe in providing a safety net for the sick, the injured and the unfortunate. That does not include the lazy or those that choose not to be a productive citizen.
We believe that it is better to compromise so that both sides get something (win-win) rather than to stand firm, like a mule so that both sides lose.
We don't think the USA should be the world's police, but we do believe in helping people that need help. That includes victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.
We think that the US should maintain a standing army that can defend us against all aggressors.
We do believe in American exceptionalism. We are fortunate to live in a vast country with vast natural resources, and we have a Constitution that allows our citizens to display that exceptionalism.
And we do believe in the Constitution. It is not a "living breathing evolving" document, but parts of it were written somewhat vague on purpose. And even where the document is specific, it was often the result of a compromise. The founders didn't all agree on every part of it. They realized that if they didn't make some compromises, they would never produce a final copy.
We do believe that the Federal Government has certain responsibilities, but we believe that the Federal Government has usurped more responsibility and power than was intended, or that is productive. The Federal government has become a behemoth that is holding us back more than it is helping.
And we believe in paying taxes. But we believe that the TEA party was just a little mistaken. We are not "taxed enough already"; we are taxed (at the Federal Level) way too much. We should cut our Federal taxes deeply, but expect that our State and Local taxes may increase (if the States and Cities decide that is what they want). If my State or City becomes to burdensome, then I can move and still stay in this great country.
And finally, we also believe that we need laws and regulations. But we need them to keep some people from preying on other people. We don't need regulations to try to manage our every day living and our every day business practices.
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
-
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
But there are a lot of us "Mostly" Conservatives. We (actually, I'm speaking for myself here) believe in conservative government spending, but we also believe in providing a safety net for the sick, the injured and the unfortunate. That does not include the lazy or those that choose not to be a productive citizen.
We believe that it is better to compromise so that both sides get something (win-win) rather than to stand firm, like a mule so that both sides lose.
We don't think the USA should be the world's police, but we do believe in helping people that need help. That includes victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.
We think that the US should maintain a standing army that can defend us against all aggressors.
We do believe in American exceptionalism. We are fortunate to live in a vast country with vast natural resources, and we have a Constitution that allows our citizens to display that exceptionalism.
And we do believe in the Constitution. It is not a "living breathing evolving" document, but parts of it were written somewhat vague on purpose. And even where the document is specific, it was often the result of a compromise. The founders didn't all agree on every part of it. They realized that if they didn't make some compromises, they would never produce a final copy.
We do believe that the Federal Government has certain responsibilities, but we believe that the Federal Government has usurped more responsibility and power than was intended, or that is productive. The Federal government has become a behemoth that is holding us back more than it is helping.
And we believe in paying taxes. But we believe that the TEA party was just a little mistaken. We are not "taxed enough already"; we are taxed (at the Federal Level) way too much. We should cut our Federal taxes deeply, but expect that our State and Local taxes may increase (if the States and Cities decide that is what they want). If my State or City becomes to burdensome, then I can move and still stay in this great country.
And finally, we also believe that we need laws and regulations. But we need them to keep some people from preying on other people. We don't need regulations to try to manage our every day living and our every day business practices.
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
Exceptionally well stated!
-
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
But there are a lot of us "Mostly" Conservatives. We (actually, I'm speaking for myself here) believe in conservative government spending, but we also believe in providing a safety net for the sick, the injured and the unfortunate. That does not include the lazy or those that choose not to be a productive citizen.
We believe that it is better to compromise so that both sides get something (win-win) rather than to stand firm, like a mule so that both sides lose.
We don't think the USA should be the world's police, but we do believe in helping people that need help. That includes victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.
We think that the US should maintain a standing army that can defend us against all aggressors.
We do believe in American exceptionalism. We are fortunate to live in a vast country with vast natural resources, and we have a Constitution that allows our citizens to display that exceptionalism.
And we do believe in the Constitution. It is not a "living breathing evolving" document, but parts of it were written somewhat vague on purpose. And even where the document is specific, it was often the result of a compromise. The founders didn't all agree on every part of it. They realized that if they didn't make some compromises, they would never produce a final copy.
We do believe that the Federal Government has certain responsibilities, but we believe that the Federal Government has usurped more responsibility and power than was intended, or that is productive. The Federal government has become a behemoth that is holding us back more than it is helping.
And we believe in paying taxes. But we believe that the TEA party was just a little mistaken. We are not "taxed enough already"; we are taxed (at the Federal Level) way too much. We should cut our Federal taxes deeply, but expect that our State and Local taxes may increase (if the States and Cities decide that is what they want). If my State or City becomes to burdensome, then I can move and still stay in this great country.
And finally, we also believe that we need laws and regulations. But we need them to keep some people from preying on other people. We don't need regulations to try to manage our every day living and our every day business practices.
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
This is a great post. And though we don't necessarily see eye to eye on many things, I can respect everything you've said here, and can promise that I agree with some of it.
-
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
But there are a lot of us "Mostly" Conservatives. We (actually, I'm speaking for myself here) believe in conservative government spending, but we also believe in providing a safety net for the sick, the injured and the unfortunate. That does not include the lazy or those that choose not to be a productive citizen.
We believe that it is better to compromise so that both sides get something (win-win) rather than to stand firm, like a mule so that both sides lose.
We don't think the USA should be the world's police, but we do believe in helping people that need help. That includes victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.
We think that the US should maintain a standing army that can defend us against all aggressors.
We do believe in American exceptionalism. We are fortunate to live in a vast country with vast natural resources, and we have a Constitution that allows our citizens to display that exceptionalism.
And we do believe in the Constitution. It is not a "living breathing evolving" document, but parts of it were written somewhat vague on purpose. And even where the document is specific, it was often the result of a compromise. The founders didn't all agree on every part of it. They realized that if they didn't make some compromises, they would never produce a final copy.
We do believe that the Federal Government has certain responsibilities, but we believe that the Federal Government has usurped more responsibility and power than was intended, or that is productive. The Federal government has become a behemoth that is holding us back more than it is helping.
And we believe in paying taxes. But we believe that the TEA party was just a little mistaken. We are not "taxed enough already"; we are taxed (at the Federal Level) way too much. We should cut our Federal taxes deeply, but expect that our State and Local taxes may increase (if the States and Cities decide that is what they want). If my State or City becomes to burdensome, then I can move and still stay in this great country.
And finally, we also believe that we need laws and regulations. But we need them to keep some people from preying on other people. We don't need regulations to try to manage our every day living and our every day business practices.
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
Well said! I wish more people thought this way, and that thinking this way could be more widely respected.
-
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
-Big Snip -
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
A very practical and pragmatic approach, well said.
Gary
-
I've wrestled with this question for some time.
Ever since I had the temerity to post something that was negative about Trump, and the reaction was "Well, he's better than Hillary" and I was not convinced by that, I had to think it through more deeply and come to a decision: If it's Trump v. Hillary, will I vote for Trump? The answer, for the reasons below, is "No."
First: I believe that Trump winning the Republican nomination will be a disaster for that party, and for the conservative movement that has made the Republican party it's electoral home. That said, a Trump Administration will be an order of magnitude worse.
The problem is illustrated by a classic example of a firecracker going off in your hand. If your hand is open, it'll hurt like hell, but it's not likely to do any permanent damage. However, if your hand is closed around the firecracker, you better get used to your friends calling you "Lefty".
Trump and Hillary are both big-government liberals, antithetical to the conservative movement. They are, effectively, both firecrackers. Hillary, however, is undeniably outside of the conservative movement and party...President Hillary is a firecracker going off in an open hand, painful, yes, but unable to do permanent damage to the conservative movement. Trump, however, being "inside" the movement, will do immeasurably more damage to the idea of conservatism in America, and his impact will be far longer lasting. Because he is "inside", forevermore, the conservative movement will be tarred with the "Trump" label. Unlike liberals, who feel no need to answer for their intellectual forebears (Woodrow Wilson and resegregating the civil service, Margaret Sanger and her desire to use abortion to wipe out the undesireable races), conservatives are forever made to apologize for any misdeeds of anyone before us. Guess what, Trump will now, for decades, be thrown up as a "conservative" exemplar. If he becomes President, with his clear lack of any depth of understanding of issues, it's going to be an unmitigated disaster.
So, will I vote for Hillary? Not with a gun to my head. However, I will not vote for Trump as a Republican nominee either. If he wins the nomination, it is my sincere hope that he be defeated in the general election, and if that is by Hillary, then so be it. The conservative movement will recover to fight again in 2020 with President Hillary. With President Trump, I fear it will not.
Hmmm. Gotta think about this one.
OK, I've thought about this.
First, Trump doesn't represent me. He doesn't represent my party, and he absolutely doesn't represent ANYTHING that I would call Conservative ideals, except for enforcing our borders.
He said that he was "Pro-choice in every respect." He has said "We must have universal healthcare." He said we have to take in Syrian refugees as late as last September.
You can look at this site to see the many departures that I have with Trump: www.trumpquestions.com.
The death of the Conservative movement, however, has not and will not happen. The GOP has left the Conservative movement, however; unfortunately, Trump has no chance of reconciling the two. None.
We in the Conservative movement are the Patrick Henry of our times. If we die, so does Liberty. So we will continue to fight.
Which is why I'm willing to fight a Trump, should he be our candidate, from the inside, rather than leave the Republic to a candidate who's party and ideology is sworn to its destruction.
I will not sit on the sidelines in this fight. However, Trump will have to convince me to vote for him - as of now, I'm a NeverTrump guy, and he's said nothing to change that. However, I will continue to gauge the risk to the Republic as this race continues, and act accordingly.
-
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
But there are a lot of us "Mostly" Conservatives. We (actually, I'm speaking for myself here) believe in conservative government spending, but we also believe in providing a safety net for the sick, the injured and the unfortunate. That does not include the lazy or those that choose not to be a productive citizen.
We believe that it is better to compromise so that both sides get something (win-win) rather than to stand firm, like a mule so that both sides lose.
We don't think the USA should be the world's police, but we do believe in helping people that need help. That includes victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.
We think that the US should maintain a standing army that can defend us against all aggressors.
We do believe in American exceptionalism. We are fortunate to live in a vast country with vast natural resources, and we have a Constitution that allows our citizens to display that exceptionalism.
And we do believe in the Constitution. It is not a "living breathing evolving" document, but parts of it were written somewhat vague on purpose. And even where the document is specific, it was often the result of a compromise. The founders didn't all agree on every part of it. They realized that if they didn't make some compromises, they would never produce a final copy.
We do believe that the Federal Government has certain responsibilities, but we believe that the Federal Government has usurped more responsibility and power than was intended, or that is productive. The Federal government has become a behemoth that is holding us back more than it is helping.
And we believe in paying taxes. But we believe that the TEA party was just a little mistaken. We are not "taxed enough already"; we are taxed (at the Federal Level) way too much. We should cut our Federal taxes deeply, but expect that our State and Local taxes may increase (if the States and Cities decide that is what they want). If my State or City becomes to burdensome, then I can move and still stay in this great country.
And finally, we also believe that we need laws and regulations. But we need them to keep some people from preying on other people. We don't need regulations to try to manage our every day living and our every day business practices.
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to pick some nits on this post.
First, very little of what you said is inconsistent with what I would call Conservative.
I suspect you have gotten caught up with the derision foisted upon Conservatives and the Tea Party movement by liberals, an example of which responded favorably to your assertion that "True" Conservatives are a small (and presumably dying) minority.
As for A "True" Conservative, that is an undefined term. I would call a True Conservative to be a Constitutional Conservative, and again, your take on the Constitution is the Conservative one.
As for the Tea Party, I take it you weren't really involved in the movement. I was, from the start. The Tea Party is for a smaller, limited, Constitutional government. Smaller means, yes, living within your means, and starving the beast. That means less taxes, but by no means was that the sole focus of the movement.
As for compromise, I think nothing in the Constitution can be compromised. That includes the Separation of Powers, the Bill of Rights, and the rest of it. If you want to change it, the Judiciary has no right to do so. There are two ways to change it, and those ways are included in the document. That's it.
Beyond that, the "no compromise" argument against "True" Conservatives is a canard.
-
As for compromise, I think nothing in the Constitution can be compromised. That includes the Separation of Powers, the Bill of Rights, and the rest of it. If you want to change it, the Judiciary has no right to do so. There are two ways to change it, and those ways are included in the document. That's it.
The Constitution can be compromised. The methods for doing so are contained in Article V thereof.
-
The Constitution can be compromised. The methods for doing so are contained in Article V thereof.
I think that's what I said in my last two sentences, though I wouldn't call a "change" to equate to a "compromise."
-
I think that's what I said in my last two sentences, though I wouldn't call a "change" to equate to a "compromise."
I get ya.
I just despise Article III amendments.
-
I've wrestled with this question for some time.
Ever since I had the temerity to post something that was negative about Trump, and the reaction was "Well, he's better than Hillary" and I was not convinced by that, I had to think it through more deeply and come to a decision: If it's Trump v. Hillary, will I vote for Trump? The answer, for the reasons below, is "No."
First: I believe that Trump winning the Republican nomination will be a disaster for that party, and for the conservative movement that has made the Republican party it's electoral home. That said, a Trump Administration will be an order of magnitude worse.
The problem is illustrated by a classic example of a firecracker going off in your hand. If your hand is open, it'll hurt like hell, but it's not likely to do any permanent damage. However, if your hand is closed around the firecracker, you better get used to your friends calling you "Lefty".
Trump and Hillary are both big-government liberals, antithetical to the conservative movement. They are, effectively, both firecrackers. Hillary, however, is undeniably outside of the conservative movement and party...President Hillary is a firecracker going off in an open hand, painful, yes, but unable to do permanent damage to the conservative movement. Trump, however, being "inside" the movement, will do immeasurably more damage to the idea of conservatism in America, and his impact will be far longer lasting. Because he is "inside", forevermore, the conservative movement will be tarred with the "Trump" label. Unlike liberals, who feel no need to answer for their intellectual forebears (Woodrow Wilson and resegregating the civil service, Margaret Sanger and her desire to use abortion to wipe out the undesireable races), conservatives are forever made to apologize for any misdeeds of anyone before us. Guess what, Trump will now, for decades, be thrown up as a "conservative" exemplar. If he becomes President, with his clear lack of any depth of understanding of issues, it's going to be an unmitigated disaster.
So, will I vote for Hillary? Not with a gun to my head. However, I will not vote for Trump as a Republican nominee either. If he wins the nomination, it is my sincere hope that he be defeated in the general election, and if that is by Hillary, then so be it. The conservative movement will recover to fight again in 2020 with President Hillary. With President Trump, I fear it will not.
It sounds like David French read this thread today.
"Yes, Trump has praised single-payer health care during this election, but trust him. He’ll do better than Obamacare. Yes, Trump has advocated touchback amnesty and increased legal immigration, but trust him. He’ll protect American workers. Yes, Trump has supported abortion-on-demand and gun control, but trust him. He’s changed. Yes, Trump has written large checks to leftist politicians, but trust him. He’ll fight them as president. Yes, his campaign team lives in the gutter, but trust him. He’ll appoint good people."
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433405/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-equally-terrible-conservatives
-
Those that define themselves as "True" Conservatives are indeed a minority. They are the ones that have a moral opinion and believe that everyone should bow to their opinions. They would rather get nothing than to compromise and get something.
But there are a lot of us "Mostly" Conservatives. We (actually, I'm speaking for myself here) believe in conservative government spending, but we also believe in providing a safety net for the sick, the injured and the unfortunate. That does not include the lazy or those that choose not to be a productive citizen.
We believe that it is better to compromise so that both sides get something (win-win) rather than to stand firm, like a mule so that both sides lose.
We don't think the USA should be the world's police, but we do believe in helping people that need help. That includes victims of groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.
We think that the US should maintain a standing army that can defend us against all aggressors.
We do believe in American exceptionalism. We are fortunate to live in a vast country with vast natural resources, and we have a Constitution that allows our citizens to display that exceptionalism.
And we do believe in the Constitution. It is not a "living breathing evolving" document, but parts of it were written somewhat vague on purpose. And even where the document is specific, it was often the result of a compromise. The founders didn't all agree on every part of it. They realized that if they didn't make some compromises, they would never produce a final copy.
We do believe that the Federal Government has certain responsibilities, but we believe that the Federal Government has usurped more responsibility and power than was intended, or that is productive. The Federal government has become a behemoth that is holding us back more than it is helping.
And we believe in paying taxes. But we believe that the TEA party was just a little mistaken. We are not "taxed enough already"; we are taxed (at the Federal Level) way too much. We should cut our Federal taxes deeply, but expect that our State and Local taxes may increase (if the States and Cities decide that is what they want). If my State or City becomes to burdensome, then I can move and still stay in this great country.
And finally, we also believe that we need laws and regulations. But we need them to keep some people from preying on other people. We don't need regulations to try to manage our every day living and our every day business practices.
Call me a RINO if you wish. I call myself a Republican because the choices are limited. But I don't think that you have to agree with every plank in the Republican party to be a part of the party. That is why "True Conservatives" appear to be such a tiny minority.
Thank you for taking the time to articulate your position, much appreciated. As a Libertarian, but maybe not a True Libertarian (again, whatever the hell that means this week), I understand where you're coming from.
-
More writers are coming around to my point-of-view:
https://ricochet.com/wreck-donald-breaking-conservatism-within/
As damaging as President Obama and Secretary Clinton have been, they were never able to infiltrate conservativism and tear it down from within. Sure, they could peel off a squish here and there, but imploding right-leaning media was beyond the limits of even the most statist IRS commissioner or NSA director. One big-government liberal was able to slap an R at the end of his name and leave chaos in his wake.
-
Its funny how in America we vote AGAINST who we don't want instead of voting FOR who we do want.
-
Its funny how in America we vote AGAINST who we don't want instead of voting FOR who we do want.
One of the (many) good things about the USA is that we can use any reason we want to vote for something/someone
-
Its funny how in America we vote AGAINST who we don't want instead of voting FOR who we do want.
With a two party system and the poor quality of politicians offered to us, it is the logical choice.
-
Its funny how in America we vote AGAINST who we don't want instead of voting FOR who we do want.
The kind of person that I would want to vote for would NEVER stoop to the level necessary to get elected. So we only get to choose between the ones that are willing to stoop that low. So I vote for the one that I believe will not be as bad as the rest.
Cruz is probably a great Lawyer and legal scholar.
Anyone heard and good Lawyer jokes lately? They are funny aren't they. And they are mostly true.
-
The kind of person that I would want to vote for would NEVER stoop to the level necessary to get elected. So we only get to choose between the ones that are willing to stoop that low. So I vote for the one that I believe will not be as bad as the rest.
Cruz is probably a great Lawyer and legal scholar.
Anyone heard and good Lawyer jokes lately? They are funny aren't they. And they are mostly true.
98% of all lawyers make the other 2% look bad.....
-
The kind of person that I would want to vote for would NEVER stoop to the level necessary to get elected. So we only get to choose between the ones that are willing to stoop that low. So I vote for the one that I believe will not be as bad as the rest.
Cruz is probably a great Lawyer and legal scholar.
Anyone heard and good Lawyer jokes lately? They are funny aren't they. And they are mostly true.
There's too much truth to that (about good people being unwilling to put up with the bs)
Problem is, there really isn't a way to fix it that I've heard of...I've heard some really bad ideas like public financing of candidates and banning fundraising, but those will just entrench the established parties and candidates with no way to break the logjam.
EDIT: and shocker, Lucifer with another content free ad hominem.
-
As I look at the primary elections I see the stamp of the two parties all over everything.
The same corrupt clowns that dumped McCain and Romney on the GOP are working feverishly not to dump Don Trump on us right now, because the only thing they fear worse than losing the White House - again - is being out of power.
The same corrupt clowns that dumped Obama on America - twice - are doing whatever it takes to make sure Hilary Clinton is the nominee no matter who wins the actual primaries. It's 2008 all over again for them.
Ted Cruz is hated by leftists because he refuses to play the political power games they live for.
Ted Cruz is hated by RINO republicans because he refuses to play their power games by their rules.
Bernie Sanders and John Kasich are just bystanders playing with themselves, thinking they are relevant right now.
-
Another analysis that echos my own:
http://www.dailywire.com/news/5188/siding-trump-end-conservative-movement-ben-shapiro
As Alexander Hamilton...once said, “If we must have an enemy at the head of government, let it be one whom we can oppose, and for whom we are not responsible.”
...
It’s not merely that Trump is a leftist. He is, but conservatives could simply point that out and then hold their noses. It’s that a solid contingent of conservatives, desperately in search of a leader, are willing to follow Trump in hollowing out conservatism.
-
As I look at the primary elections I see the stamp of the two parties all over everything.
The same corrupt clowns that dumped McCain and Romney on the GOP are working feverishly not to dump Don Trump on us right now, because the only thing they fear worse than losing the White House - again - is being out of power.
The same corrupt clowns that dumped Obama on America - twice - are doing whatever it takes to make sure Hilary Clinton is the nominee no matter who wins the actual primaries. It's 2008 all over again for them.
Ted Cruz is hated by leftists because he refuses to play the political power games they live for.
Ted Cruz is hated by RINO republicans because he refuses to play their power games by their rules.
Bernie Sanders and John Kasich are just bystanders playing with themselves, thinking they are relevant right now.
We are at the tipping point, and actually may be beyond as we've had two or three generations of heavily leftist indoctrinated people now voting, and making policy. The Progressive/liberals (Democrats) have succeeded in taking over education, government, and the media. We have an uphill battle to retain what made America exceptional and drive people to WANT to come here. Our business climate is already crap, and our freedoms are dwindling. If Hillary gets elected we are DONE.
-
We are at the tipping point, and actually may be beyond as we've had two or three generations of heavily leftist indoctrinated people now voting, and making policy. The Progressive/liberals (Democrats) have succeeded in taking over education, government, and the media. We have an uphill battle to retain what made America exceptional and drive people to WANT to come here. Our business climate is already crap, and our freedoms are dwindling. If Hillary gets elected we are DONE.
What makes you think Trump would be any better?