PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Lucifer on March 28, 2016, 09:04:55 AM
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Bill Clinton gave us NAFTA. 20 years later exactly what have been our benefits of this agreement? For corporate America it was a boom insuring cheaper labor, but for the average worker it's been a disaster.
Here's an interesting article on it and why Trump (and Sanders) have gained momentum.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-03-28/the-89-pay-cut-that-brought-trump-mania-to-america-s-heartland
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Yet Trump's ties, cuff links, and clothing line is made in Mexico and China, and his solution to reversing the trade deficit is tariffs, which will explode the cost of goods to American consumers.
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Yet Trump's ties, cuff links, and clothing line is made in Mexico and China, and his solution to reversing the trade deficit is tariffs, which will explode the cost of goods to American consumers.
So you are pro NAFTA?
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So you are pro NAFTA?
Trump sure seems to be, at least as applied to him. For everyone else, he wants them to just pay more.
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If we have a trade deficit with a nation such as Mexico where we used to trade evenly then the trade relationship needs to be re-negotiated.
Between China and Mexico alone our trade deficit has grown to $420Billion / year.
Low consumer prices to Americans is not the beat all and end all. Consider the many, myself included who now earn only a fraction of what we used to.
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If we have a trade deficit with a nation such as Mexico where we used to trade evenly then the trade relationship needs to be re-negotiated.
Between China and Mexico alone our trade deficit has grown to $420Billion / year.
Low consumer prices to Americans is not the beat all and end all. Consider the many, myself included who now earn only a fraction of what we used to.
For me, I'm tired of buying inferior cheap crap. It's really difficult to find American made products anymore. Recently I went to buy a bicycle and when I asked the salesman to see something American made he just laughed. Everything was Chinese or Taiwanese made.
Remember when WalMart use to advertise they sold American made where ever possible? Now WalMart is a storefront for everything China. American consumers have had this steady diet of cheap crap for so long now they are addicted. Never mind the cheap crap is inferior and won't last, the demand is still there.
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For me, I'm tired of buying inferior cheap crap. It's really difficult to find American made products anymore. Recently I went to buy a bicycle and when I asked the salesman to see something American made he just laughed. Everything was Chinese or Taiwanese made.
Remember when WalMart use to advertise they sold American made where ever possible? Now WalMart is a storefront for everything China. American consumers have had this steady diet of cheap crap for so long now they are addicted. Never mind the cheap crap is inferior and won't last, the demand is still there.
Once Sam was gone the kids tuned Walmart into a Chinese bazaar.
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Once Sam was gone the kids tuned Walmart into a Chinese bazaar.
People aren't forced to buy that stuff. I blame the consumer for accepting sub standard goods.
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People aren't forced to buy that stuff. I blame the consumer for accepting sub standard goods.
I blame the consumers who are dumb enough to buy cheap crap instead of thinking about total cost of ownership.
I blame the stores for only offering cheap crap.
But the American worker needs to accept some blame as well, for pricing their labor out of the market.
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But the American worker needs to accept some blame as well, for pricing their labor out of the market.
I agree Bob. The American worker seduced by the unions. I wish our economy could sustain assembly line workers making the kind of money to afford vacation homes, boats, expensive muscle cars like back in the 60's and 70's. Those people create demand for goods and services, but it was NOT sustainable due to the global marketplace. We are competing with those willing to make less, and not have every luxury. They are happy with a roof, and food.
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I blame the stores for only offering cheap crap.
I agreed with your first and last points, but I don't agree with the one listed above.
You cannot blame the stores for not carrying stuff that people don't buy. For the most part, high quality, American made stuff sits on the shelves while consumers buy the cheap foreign junk that costs a nickel less. Of course, almost everybody says they would prefer to pay more for quality, but when they compare price tags, they buy cheap.
I used to hate tariffs. I was taught in school that tariffs are baaaaaad. But what is really bad is a lot of the economics that are taught in schools.
This is a tough nut to crack. If we are going to be successful we have to make some tough decisions and negotiate some tough deals with foreign countries. I think Trump is the only one with the spine to do that.
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Yet Trump's ties, cuff links, and clothing line is made in Mexico and China, and his solution to reversing the trade deficit is tariffs, which will explode the cost of goods to American consumers.
What do you think the cost of goods would be for products made onshore?
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What do you think the cost of goods would be for products made onshore?
YUUUUUUGE
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I agreed with your first and last points, but I don't agree with the one listed above.
You cannot blame the stores for not carrying stuff that people don't buy. For the most part, high quality, American made stuff sits on the shelves while consumers buy the cheap foreign junk that costs a nickel less. Of course, almost everybody says they would prefer to pay more for quality, but when they compare price tags, they buy cheap.
I stand by my comment. I, for one, will pay for quality. I've learned that buying and using crap tools costs me more in the long run. Use a tool that isn't quite in-spec on your airplane and watch it chew up screws and bolts (ca-ching!).
While I will pay for quality, I usually don't have the option, since most stores have cheap crap made in China.
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I agreed with your first and last points, but I don't agree with the one listed above.
You cannot blame the stores for not carrying stuff that people don't buy. For the most part, high quality, American made stuff sits on the shelves while consumers buy the cheap foreign junk that costs a nickel less. Of course, almost everybody says they would prefer to pay more for quality, but when they compare price tags, they buy cheap.
I used to hate tariffs. I was taught in school that tariffs are baaaaaad. But what is really bad is a lot of the economics that are taught in schools.
This is a tough nut to crack. If we are going to be successful we have to make some tough decisions and negotiate some tough deals with foreign countries. I think Trump is the only one with the spine to do that.
American goods are not a nickel more. They are much, much more. Often you can't even get some of the same products made overseas, especially computers, phones, and other electronics. The American consumer doesn't want to go through the pain of Tariffs or other things that would level the playing field. We are a HUGE market, and have a lot more leverage than many think. If we lessened our taxes, and regulation we could compete better, but labor may have to accept less than they are used to also.
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So you are pro NAFTA?
No, I'm anti-hypocrite.
Except for running shoes and hiking boots, 100% of my dress and casual shoes are from Allen Edmonds (www.allenedmonds.com) and are manufactured in Port Washington, Wisconsin. They are much more expensive than most shoes out there, but they last for decades, and have a loyal following.
Trump could certainly make his products in the US. North Carolina still has a textile industry, so that would be a good place to set up shop. Sure, they might be more expensive, but you would think he could build a loyal following willing to pay the premium, just like Allen Edmonds.
Instead, he went for the lowest cost manufacturing option, which is NOT in the US.
Yet his fans eat up his tough talk about outsourcing jobs, either ignorant of Trump's hypocrisy, or unwilling to admit it.
Likewise with his "solution", which is tariffs. When confronted with the reality that tariffs will drive up the cost of goods to consumers, Trump said that just the "threat" of a tariff would suffice. I thought the "Art of the Deal" guy would say that you have to be able and willing to follow through with your threats, or they aren't really much of a threat.
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What do you think the cost of goods would be for products made onshore?
See post #16 (on Tapatalk at least).
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I stand by my comment. I, for one, will pay for quality. I've learned that buying and using crap tools costs me more in the long run. Use a tool that isn't quite in-spec on your airplane and watch it chew up screws and bolts (ca-ching!).
While I will pay for quality, I usually don't have the option, since most stores have cheap crap made in China.
Businesses don't sell the cheap junk because they like dealing with lower priced items. They provide the cheap junk because that is what the majority of the people buy. If there were enough people willing to pay the higher price, there would be more of the expensive stuff on the shelves.
But part of the problem is that the cheap foreign stuff isn't automatically "junk". Foreign quality is often superior to American quality today. The reason American goods cost more is not just because it is better quality. As I said, that often isn't even the case. American goods cost more for various reasons, and labor is just one of those reasons. Taxes, liberal legal liability laws, regulations (epa, osha, ada, etc ...)
But tell me why you expect a business to carry items that wont' sell in sufficient quantity to make them a profit?
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American goods are not a nickel more. They are much, much more. Often you can't even get some of the same products made overseas, especially computers, phones, and other electronics. The American consumer doesn't want to go through the pain of Tariffs or other things that would level the playing field. We are a HUGE market, and have a lot more leverage than many think. If we lessened our taxes, and regulation we could compete better, but labor may have to accept less than they are used to also.
Anyone remember the type of trade agreement Tom Clancy (in effect) proposed in (IIRC) "Executive Orders"? His President Ryan character proposed that the US impose equivalent restrictions on imports from Country X that Country X imposed on imports from the USA.
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Anyone remember the type of trade agreement Tom Clancy (in effect) proposed in (IIRC) "Executive Orders"? His President Ryan character proposed that the US impose equivalent restrictions on imports from Country X that Country X imposed on imports from the USA.
Sounds like something President Trump would propose.
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Businesses don't sell the cheap junk because they like dealing with lower priced items. They provide the cheap junk because that is what the majority of the people buy. If there were enough people willing to pay the higher price, there would be more of the expensive stuff on the shelves.
But part of the problem is that the cheap foreign stuff isn't automatically "junk". Foreign quality is often superior to American quality today. The reason American goods cost more is not just because it is better quality. As I said, that often isn't even the case. American goods cost more for various reasons, and labor is just one of those reasons. Taxes, liberal legal liability laws, regulations (epa, osha, ada, etc ...)
But tell me why you expect a business to carry items that wont' sell in sufficient quantity to make them a profit?
Depends on what you are buying. I've yet to see anything I would use in my daily life that is made in China and worth a crap.
Fortunately we have the internet, so yes when I need something I do shop around and if I can buy something American produced over China/Mexico, then I buy it even if it means spending more. I want quality, not cheap.
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Anyone remember the type of trade agreement Tom Clancy (in effect) proposed in (IIRC) "Executive Orders"? His President Ryan character proposed that the US impose equivalent restrictions on imports from Country X that Country X imposed on imports from the USA.
Trade reciprocity.
And it caused two wars, and the near nuclear annihilation of DC.
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Trade reciprocity.
And it caused two wars, and the near nuclear annihilation of DC.
I think you have the events out of order
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I think you have the events out of order
Nope...the Trade reciprocity policy led to a war with Japan, and later China (The Bear and the Dragon), with the Chinese firing an ICBM @DC.
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Nope...the Trade reciprocity policy led to a war with Japan, and later China (The Bear and the Dragon), with the Chinese firing an ICBM @DC.
So what is your point? Is Trade Reciprocity a bad thing? Should we not stand up to countries that would defeat us economically rather than militarily? Or are you just against it because Trump is for it?
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Nope...the Trade reciprocity policy led to a war with Japan, and later China (The Bear and the Dragon), with the Chinese firing an ICBM @DC.
The war with Japan was not a result of the Trade Reciprocity policy ("Debt of Honor" preceded "Executive Orders")
Neither was the premise of "The Bear and the Dragon"
In any case, me thinks you missed the point of bringing up the fictional policy. And I hope you aren't suggesting that the Clancy novels are proof of how things would happen.
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The war with Japan was not a result of the Trade Reciprocity policy ("Debt of Honor" preceded "Executive Orders")
Neither was the premise of "The Bear and the Dragon"
In any case, me thinks you missed the point of bringing up the fictional policy. And I hope you aren't suggesting that the Clancy novels are proof of how things would happen.
Well, many of Clancy's books were amazingly prescient.
But I agree with your point.
When I hear people fret about all the horrible things Trump is going to do, I just think back about all the horrible things the press and the establishment said Reagan was going to do. One phrase that kept popping up was that we couldn't trust that "Cowboy" with the nuclear codes. If elected President, he will get us into a war".
And "NO", I am not saying Trump = Reagan. I am saying that people now are just as stupid as people were back then.
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Well, many of Clancy's books were amazingly prescient.
But I agree with your point.
When I hear people fret about all the horrible things Trump is going to do, I just think back about all the horrible things the press and the establishment said Reagan was going to do. One phrase that kept popping up was that we couldn't trust that "Cowboy" with the nuclear codes. If elected President, he will get us into a war".
And "NO", I am not saying Trump = Reagan. I am saying that people now are just as stupid as people were back then.
(http://www.posters57.com/images/categories/1984_Ronald.jpg=600.jpg)