PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Lucifer on February 18, 2023, 03:30:58 PM
-
Former President Jimmy Carter, 98, has decided to stop hospital care and go home. Hospice will care for him.
-
I didn’t realize he was that old.
-
End of life is tough.
-
End of life is tough.
After her second stroke, which incapacitated her and could barely speak, my mother of 98 was told she likely had only a few more weeks to live, so she chose home hospice. She unexpectedly lived six months and said at one point it was a horrible way to die. I wont go into further details but only posting this to agree that end of life can be extraordinarily tough and also say that sometimes quicker may be more merciful.
-
After her second stroke, which incapacitated her and could barely speak, my mother of 98 was told she likely had only a few more weeks to live, so she chose home hospice. She unexpectedly lived six months and said at one point it was a horrible way to die. I wont go into further details but only posting this to agree that end of life can be extraordinarily tough and also say that sometimes quicker may be more merciful.
The hospice was horrible? It’s not supposed to extend your life, it’s supposed to only keep you comfortable.
-
The hospice was horrible? It’s not supposed to extend your life, it’s supposed to only keep you comfortable.
But if you don't die on schedule, then it is horrible, unless they keep you so doped up you can't feel or understand anything.
In which case, you should be allowed to die, or be assisted toward that end.
-
But if you don't die on schedule, then it is horrible, unless they keep you so doped up you can't feel or understand anything.
In which case, you should be allowed to die, or be assisted toward that end.
But I thought the point of hospice was to allow you to die. I didn’t know they had a “schedule”. I know that to qualify you must be considered terminal within a certain timeframe but if you don’t die, you can be removed from hospice, or continue in it depending on the circumstances.
If you don’t die quickly it is horrible no matter what, in the hospital, at home on your own, whatever. Hospice is supposed to ease pain and discomfort, that’s all. Not extend your life and certainly not increase your discomfort. Having said that I'm sure there are bad apples; maybe hospice workers that pilfer your morphine. Or maybe you mean she would have died more quickly in the hospital despite the heroic lifesaving measures… or maybe because of them.
-
My understanding of and experience with hospice is that there isn't a requirement to die in 6 months. But but if the patient continues to live, there is an evaluation. Unfortunately, my grandmother, my father, and my mother all didn't make the 6 month mark.
There is also palliative care, not quite hospice. When the nurse came to evaluate my mother, she took one look at my mother and told me no to the palliative care and that she needed hospice. :-(
-
My understanding of and experience with hospice is that there isn't a requirement to die in 6 months. But but if the patient continues to live, there is an evaluation. Unfortunately, my grandmother, my father, and my mother all didn't make the 6 month mark.
There is also palliative care, not quite hospice. When the nurse came to evaluate my mother, she took one look at my mother and told me no to the palliative care and that she needed hospice. :-(
True. To qualify for hospice you need to be expected terminal within 6 months but for palliative care you don’t need to be terminal, but may choose not to pursue treatment. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the disease.
-
While Jimmy Carter was a terribly ineffective President, he is one of our greatest ex-presidents. I have a lot of respect for what he did once he left office.
-
But I thought the point of hospice was to allow you to die.
You are right. I was in a hurry, posted that and left the house. Then soon realized that I was wrong the way I said it.
What I meant to point out was my support for assisted end-of-life laws. Whether you are in Hospice, a hospital or your children's basement, you shouldn't be forced to spend the rest of your days in misery. And people that assist you should not automatically be viewed as criminal murderers.
-
You are right. I was in a hurry, posted that and left the house. Then soon realized that I was wrong the way I said it.
What I meant to point out was my support for assisted end-of-life laws. Whether you are in Hospice, a hospital or your children's basement, you shouldn't be forced to spend the rest of your days in misery. And people that assist you should not automatically be viewed as criminal murderers.
The problem is where do we draw the line? Canada has embraced this concept, and now is using it to rid itself of "undesirables" or people they feel aren't worthy to be a draw on their socialist medical system. There have been recent stories out of Canada where middle aged people needing advance healthcare are being denied, and then offered the termination method instead.
This is a slippery slope, when placed in the government hands will lead to "creative" ways to expand definitions and use.
Be careful what you wish for.
-
You are right. I was in a hurry, posted that and left the house. Then soon realized that I was wrong the way I said it.
What I meant to point out was my support for assisted end-of-life laws. Whether you are in Hospice, a hospital or your children's basement, you shouldn't be forced to spend the rest of your days in misery. And people that assist you should not automatically be viewed as criminal murderers.
Oh okay, gotcha. And I agree completely. I’m not a hard right Christian “all life is precious at all times no matter how bad you suffer only God can decide when you die.” If that’s our moral standard, why doesn’t it apply to our dogs?
But having said that, there’s a very big problem with legalizing it, like we see in Canada right now. Young people in their early twenties with “depression” are being put to death - literally - by euthanasia doctors without much screening or attempts at treatment first. They sure went fast down the slippery slope from, “You should be able to off yourself early if you have a horrible physically painful disease,” to “You should off yourself if you haven’t managed to get laid by 23 and think you have no future.”
It’s like how we went from, “Gays shouldn’t be bullied,” to “If you don’t want to fuck a trans ‘woman’ you’re a transphobic racist Nazi” in like three years flat.
We went from, “Blacks and women should not be discriminated against, hire based on who is most qualified,” to “Actively discriminate against straight white men in jobs, and against whites and Asians in universities, in fact, just go beat up and kill Asian men.”
-
Sadly, in late January, my husband’s sister passed away from pancreatic cancer. We got colds or a flu this week so didn’t feel well enough to travel to her memorial. Really sad. Her church did an amazing livestream of the service yesterday though.
We visited her a week before she passed. Everyone was literally trying to get her to go in Hospice, and she very much qualified, and a lovely Hospice home is in her city. At one point we were all relieved because we thought she decided to. But she changed her mind and decided to stay in the hospital, where the nurse told us they could not relieve her pain (and watching a loved one in pain is life’s greatest agony) because only Hospice can use the big gun pain meds without fear of harming the patient, because death is the expected trajectory. In other words, to our astonishment, her medical fragility limited the hospital, whose mission is it to heal and not harm, from using anything much stronger than acetaminophen.
I said to the nurse, “But she’s in pain!” But it was my sister-in-law’s choice to stay in the hospital. We later learned there were two reasons. She knew that choosing the hospital track would keep her alive, and where there’s life there’s hope. She wanted to live, even with pain. And she knew that Hospice would be a quiet, doped up place to die. Which she didn’t want.
She passed away in her sleep in the hospital the night before she was to be moved to Hospice, a decision her husband finally had to make because she was past that sort of awareness.
This morning I feel sharply aware of two things. If there’s someone in your family or a good friend you don’t know well or have been out of touch with for whatever reason, take the time to know them, even just a little. Don’t wait to hear stories at their funeral and realize you didn’t really know them. I have few regrets in life but as an introvert I can let contact slide alarmingly. But Time keeps ticking away at us all.
And we’re all going to die, suddenly or slowly. We hope for suddenly. But slowly is far more common. Memento mori. We should think about our death, be prepared for it, and be vigilant in living our lives with an awareness of their finiteness.
-
This thread is way too depressing. Maybe show pictures of puppies or something?
-
This thread is way too depressing. Maybe show pictures of puppies or something?
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web03/2012/7/6/16/enhanced-buzz-28835-1341607215-1.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
-
There is not enough bleach in the laundry room to wash that out of my head.
-
Puppy!
-
Kitten!
-
The problem is where do we draw the line?
That is a legitimate question, but a weak argument. We all draw lines every day.
How much house can I afford? What kind of car makes sense, which airplane(s) should I buy?
Why is the speed limit set to 70 on the highway near me? Why not 80 or 90? OR 40?
Most of us agree that the EPA crosses the line too often? But who should be allowed to pour gasoline into the aquifer or poor motor oil into the fishing hole?
And perhaps we should just abolish the entire criminal justice system. After all, they are all about drawing lines.
In this case though, you draw the line at terminating someone's life when it is against their will. This is different than executing criminals.
“You should off yourself if you haven’t managed to get laid by 23 and think you have no future.”
See, there are many good reasons to allow euthanasia!
-
That is a legitimate question, but a weak argument. We all draw lines every day.
How much house can I afford? What kind of car makes sense, which airplane(s) should I buy?
Why is the speed limit set to 70 on the highway near me? Why not 80 or 90? OR 40?
Most of us agree that the EPA crosses the line too often? But who should be allowed to pour gasoline into the aquifer or poor motor oil into the fishing hole?
And perhaps we should just abolish the entire criminal justice system. After all, they are all about drawing lines.
In this case though, you draw the line at terminating someone's life when it is against their will. This is different than executing criminals.
So you really don't understand the consequences. Got it.
"Just let the government figure it for us"........... ::)
-
So you really don't understand the consequences. Got it.
"Just let the government figure it for us"........... ::)
Logan's Run Carousel... we're almost there.
-
So you really don't understand the consequences. Got it.
"Just let the government figure it for us"........... ::)
Oh, I understand the consequences. I just draw the line at a different place than you do.
If I don't manage to kill myself in an airplane, or on a motorcycle, then I intend to off myself when my quality of life becomes too miserable. I don't fear death, but I do fear dying (slowly). I would prefer it if I could have help though, without turning a loved one into a criminal.
-
After her second stroke, which incapacitated her and could barely speak, my mother of 98 was told she likely had only a few more weeks to live, so she chose home hospice. She unexpectedly lived six months and said at one point it was a horrible way to die. I wont go into further details but only posting this to agree that end of life can be extraordinarily tough and also say that sometimes quicker may be more merciful.
My mother in law died of pancreatic cancer at age 50, so I’ve seen it up close and personal. My FIL died in his sleep at age 64 of atherosclerosis, and probably a broken heart. Too young, but I think God was merciful to him.
-
"Just let the government figure it for us"........... ::)
Yeah. The State government. If I can't help the state I live in to set policies I like, I can move to another State.
-
My mother in law died of pancreatic cancer at age 50, so I’ve seen it up close and personal. My FIL died in his sleep at age 64 of atherosclerosis, and probably a broken heart. Too young, but I think God was merciful to him.
I recently watched my younger brother die a lingering death from pancreatic cancer. It was horrifying. Medical advances and surgery techniques allowed him to live in pain and misery for almost two years. I have nightmares about that.
-
But if you don't die on schedule, then it is horrible, unless they keep you so doped up you can't feel or understand anything.
In which case, you should be allowed to die, or be assisted toward that end.
My daughter the vet feels the same way. I think it’s a very slippery slope with humans however. I know they my wife said that when her mom was in the end stages of pancreatic cancer, she would walk in and see her mom staring at the morphine bottle across the room. She always wondered what she was thinking.
-
Oh, I understand the consequences. I just draw the line at a different place than you do.
If I don't manage to kill myself in an airplane, or on a motorcycle, then I intend to off myself when my quality of life becomes too miserable. I don't fear death, but I do fear dying (slowly). I would prefer it if I could have help though, without turning a loved one into a criminal.
The people in Canada had good thoughts on the process as well, in the beginning. Now look at what it has morphed into.
-
True. To qualify for hospice you need to be expected terminal within 6 months but for palliative care you don’t need to be terminal, but may choose not to pursue treatment. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the disease.
What is the difference between hospice and palliative care? A quick search of The Google didn’t specify.
-
The problem is where do we draw the line? Canada has embraced this concept, and now is using it to rid itself of "undesirables" or people they feel aren't worthy to be a draw on their socialist medical system. There have been recent stories out of Canada where middle aged people needing advance healthcare are being denied, and then offered the termination method instead.
This is a slippery slope, when placed in the government hands will lead to "creative" ways to expand definitions and use.
Be careful what you wish for.
Exactly. I’ve heard of people going to Oregon, I believe, for assisted suicide because they lost their hearing or were depressed. That seems criminal to me, and a super slippery slope.
-
The hospice was horrible? It’s not supposed to extend your life, it’s supposed to only keep you comfortable.
It was the long time to die and total lack of autonomy that she found horrible, not where her ending took place.
The fictional stories of someone having a prognosis of days or months to live but somehow lead halfway normal lives till they suddenly drop dead are, well, fictional for most people.
-
Exactly. I’ve heard of people going to Oregon, I believe, for assisted suicide because they lost their hearing or were depressed. That seems criminal to me, and a super slippery slope.
They may have gone to Oregon for that reason, but doubt seriously they were successful (legally).
But even if they were successful, it should be state-by-state.
I don't want the Federal government controlling whether I, and every single American, can decide our own fate.
-
The people in Canada had good thoughts on the process as well, in the beginning. Now look at what it has morphed into.
The communist province of canada has become a hotbed of extraordinary attacks on all rights to life, speech, freedom to make decisions and now is contemplating giving themselves the tight to kill (euthanize) CHILDREN without parental input.
Fuck them and their commie bastard leader.
-
Logan's Run Carousel... we're almost there.
Do the girls still show up at your door after you pick them on the internet?
-
It was the long time to die and total lack of autonomy that she found horrible, not where her ending took place.
The fictional stories of someone having a prognosis of days or months to live but somehow lead halfway normal lives till they suddenly drop dead are, well, fictional for most people.
Oh I see. It wasn’t the hospice that was horrible but the situation. They don’t keep you prisoner. But the weakness and helplessness while dying a slow death would rob you of autonomy. I was miserable enough for just two weeks after surgery unable to do anything for myself and I knew recovery was right around the corner.
-
What is the difference between hospice and palliative care? A quick search of The Google didn’t specify.
Mostly insurance and how it’s paid for. The parameters of what you can and can’t do, for example, palliative care you may pursue treatment if you wish but hospice you can’t. You’d have to remove yourself from hospice if you wanted to pursue a new treatment in hopes of cure, so that it would be covered. I think, don’t quote me.
Everything in our healthcare system is based on who pays for what.
-
That is a legitimate question, but a weak argument. We all draw lines every day.
How much house can I afford? What kind of car makes sense, which airplane(s) should I buy?
Why is the speed limit set to 70 on the highway near me? Why not 80 or 90? OR 40?
Most of us agree that the EPA crosses the line too often? But who should be allowed to pour gasoline into the aquifer or poor motor oil into the fishing hole?
And perhaps we should just abolish the entire criminal justice system. After all, they are all about drawing lines.
In this case though, you draw the line at terminating someone's life when it is against their will. This is different than executing criminals.
See, there are many good reasons to allow euthanasia!
People can and do off themselves on a regular basis. Why allow the government into it, and brings a fellow human being into your own suicide?
There’s a big difference between someone suffering a painful Terminal condition, and government-sanctioned death because you’re depressed.
-
As the country's debt continues to grow the Government will someday decide that if you are on Medicare, they will get to decide when your time is up.
-
People can and do off themselves on a regular basis. Why allow the government into it, and brings a fellow human being into your own suicide?
There’s a big difference between someone suffering a painful Terminal condition, and government-sanctioned death because you’re depressed.
Devil’s advocate here. I’d like to be able to legally obtain a big enough dose of morphine to off myself if I get terminal cancer and am in unbearable pain. And maybe legally get the advice of a professional how to inject it. That’s the only reason I’d like to have “assisted suicide” made legal but it’s a pretty big reason. I don’t think I can put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. And anyway I am opposed to using guns for that purpose. Hanging? No way. Drink antifreeze or other poison? Hell no.
From a strictly libertarian viewpoint, government has no business preventing me from obtaining such assistance. But I’m against socialized medicine too. The problem in Canada is the government has a huge incentive to get rid of people for money reasons. This applies to the old and sick. So it’s their Marxism that makes legal suicide something to be abused. And as for the young people, the world they face due to our decayed culture, distorted social scene, and lack of prospects for a normal life, that is largely due to wokeness and feminism screwing up normal human relationships. Of course they’re depressed and suicidal.
So I’m not supposed to want legal assisted suicide because the left has screwed up the world so much that it is misused and abused way more than it would be in a healthy functioning free market society?
-
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web03/2012/7/6/16/enhanced-buzz-28835-1341607215-1.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
I knew it was coming! 🤣🤣🤣
-
Devil’s advocate here. I’d like to be able to legally obtain a big enough dose of morphine to off myself if I get terminal cancer and am in unbearable pain. And maybe legally get the advice of a professional how to inject it. That’s the only reason I’d like to have “assisted suicide” made legal but it’s a pretty big reason. I don’t think I can put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. And anyway I am opposed to using guns for that purpose. Hanging? No way. Drink antifreeze or other poison? Hell no.
From a strictly libertarian viewpoint, government has no business preventing me from obtaining such assistance. But I’m against socialized medicine too. The problem in Canada is the government has a huge incentive to get rid of people for money reasons. This applies to the old and sick. So it’s their Marxism that makes legal suicide something to be abused. And as for the young people, the world they face due to our decayed culture, distorted social scene, and lack of prospects for a normal life, that is largely due to wokeness and feminism screwing up normal human relationships. Of course they’re depressed and suicidal.
So I’m not supposed to want legal assisted suicide because the left has screwed up the world so much that it is misused and abused way more than it would be in a healthy functioning free market society?
Since you said you were playing the Devil's advocate here, I guess that makes me the devil. Because you summed up my feelings better than I did. Just because socialized Canada screwed it up doesn't necessarily mean we have to. We have to be careful because we may be going that way, but we aren't there yet.
-
I knew it was coming! 🤣🤣🤣
Lucifer's favorite pinup!
-
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web03/2012/7/6/16/enhanced-buzz-28835-1341607215-1.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
Photoshopped. That body is way better than Hillary’s.
-
Photoshopped. That body is way better than Hillary’s.
Aww, Lucifer is having a bad day. Don't make it worse by casting dispersion on his pinup.
-
Aww, Lucifer is having a bad day. Don't make it worse by casting dispersion on his pinup.
Actually, my day is going well.
Remember, I’m not the one that keeps bringing up euthanasia. ;)
-
Since you said you were playing the Devil's advocate here, I guess that makes me the devil. Because you summed up my feelings better than I did. Just because socialized Canada screwed it up doesn't necessarily mean we have to. We have to be careful because we may be going that way, but we aren't there yet.
We are pretty far along. Medicare is essentially socialized medicine and of course we have Medicaid which more and more people will be on as the economy tanks. But on the plus side it seems our leaders don’t give a shit about balancing the budget so maybe they won’t try to kill us off like the Canadians are doing.
-
We are pretty far along. Medicare is essentially socialized medicine and of course we have Medicaid which more and more people will be on as the economy tanks. But on the plus side it seems our leaders don’t give a shit about balancing the budget so maybe they won’t try to kill us off like the Canadians are doing.
Don’t bet on that.
It’s being made abundantly clear that the average person in the flyover states are the enemy, and not wanted any longer. Our replacements are coming in record numbers, are being treated better than we are. They weren’t demanding the illegals get the clot shot, only citizens.
-
Actually, my day is going well.
Remember, I’m not the one that keeps bringing up euthanasia. ;)
No. Actually I'm talking about an old person's right to choose.
But if you didn't know what I was talking about, you could have said WTF are you talking about. I could have explained it to you as if you were a 3 yr old.
-
No. Actually I'm talking about an old person's right to choose.
But if you didn't know what I was talking about, you could have said WTF are you talking about. I could have explained it to you as if you were a 3 yr old.
Damn Joe. You sure are in a pissy mood today. Somebody hurt your feelings over at the pilots place or something?
-
When they can cut a child's dick off and fill him full of girl hormones without the parent's permission, they can "put the child to sleep" because he's depressed. Not much of a leap.
-
Remember, I’m not the one that keeps bringing up euthanasia. ;)
Youth in Asia?
There was a social studies class I had in high school in which two groups of students were tasked by the teacher to take opposite sides of a debate on euthanasia. Most of the remaining class wasn't informed of the debate subject. On the day of the debate, in front of the rest of the class, they began their arguments. It became quite educational when a fair number of the students were looking mighty confused (self included.) One finally had the courage to speak up to ask why there was a debate on youth in asia? Teacher does a face palm (ok, maybe not literally - I'm recollecting from the dawn of time) and writes the word down on the chalkboard and explains it meaning. Enlightenment ensues.
-
-
When SNL was funny.
That reminds of a dentist once pointing out that my tongue's appearance indicated that ....
-
As the country's debt continues to grow the Government will someday decide that if you are on Medicare, they will get to decide when your time is up.
Someday?
“All of the derision aimed at Palin to the contrary, the reality is that the federal government uses “Quality Adjusted Life Years” (QALYs) as a metric for deciding whether to cover the costs of certain medical treatments. Put otherwise, it’s a rationing yardstick. And if you are mentally or physically disabled or have certain chronic diseases, a QALYs can be spelled D-E-A-T-H.”
https://pjmedia.com/culture/marktapscott/2023/01/31/remember-the-obamacare-death-panels-theyre-still-here-but-now-based-on-qalys-n1666537
-
A terrible President, but this Tweet is right on.
-
Devil’s advocate here. I’d like to be able to legally obtain a big enough dose of morphine to off myself if I get terminal cancer and am in unbearable pain. And maybe legally get the advice of a professional how to inject it. That’s the only reason I’d like to have “assisted suicide” made legal but it’s a pretty big reason. I don’t think I can put a gun to my head and pull the trigger. And anyway I am opposed to using guns for that purpose. Hanging? No way. Drink antifreeze or other poison? Hell no.
From a strictly libertarian viewpoint, government has no business preventing me from obtaining such assistance. But I’m against socialized medicine too. The problem in Canada is the government has a huge incentive to get rid of people for money reasons. This applies to the old and sick. So it’s their Marxism that makes legal suicide something to be abused. And as for the young people, the world they face due to our decayed culture, distorted social scene, and lack of prospects for a normal life, that is largely due to wokeness and feminism screwing up normal human relationships. Of course they’re depressed and suicidal.
So I’m not supposed to want legal assisted suicide because the left has screwed up the world so much that it is misused and abused way more than it would be in a healthy functioning free market society?
I do have empathy for that situation. In fact, my wife, having seen her mother pass away from pancreatic cancer, assured me she would do something vs die that way.
Where my empathy shakes is when people are just depressed, angry, out of work, or any number of things that are not fatal.
How many more ex-military members suffering from PTSD would die, and leave their spouses and children, if suicide was made easier and readily available?
Aside from a truly terminal and terrible disease situation, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
-
When they can cut a child's dick off and fill him full of girl hormones without the parent's permission, they can "put the child to sleep" because he's depressed. Not much of a leap.
Why not? They’re already drugging them because boys are acting like ….. boys.
-
I do have empathy for that situation. In fact, my wife, having seen her mother pass away from pancreatic cancer, assured me she would do something vs die that way.
Where my empathy shakes is when people are just depressed, angry, out of work, or any number of things that are not fatal.
How many more ex-military members suffering from PTSD would die, and leave their spouses and children, if suicide was made easier and readily available?
Aside from a truly terminal and terrible disease situation, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I agree. There are so many people who don’t really want to die, they’re just in (psychological) pain and want help. The truly suicidal will succeed one way or the other. With our current social and political situation it’s probably not a good idea to legalize it. But it’s still fundamentally wrong to deny the terminally ill the same mercy we show our dogs.
-
I knew it was coming! 🤣🤣🤣
Not quite as bad as the Tranny Admiral Dicky, but still....
-
Not quite as bad as the Tranny Admiral Dicky, but still....
What are you doing up at 4:30 am? Well I guess it’s 5:30 where you are.
Sheesh, don’t you people sleep?
-
What are you doing up at 4:30 am? Well I guess it’s 5:30 where you are.
Sheesh, don’t you people sleep?
No, not really. Too busy with stuff.
-
No, not really. Too busy with stuff.
Me too, I’m doing taxes. Then, my mother’s taxes.