PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Jaybird180 on April 26, 2016, 09:43:53 AM
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(https://media.guim.co.uk/d713119a93300042cc0f3c38a48b153c50ab6b65/52_0_3377_2027/3377.jpg)
Apologize for the size of the pic- how do I reduce it?
This is what I thought to be a well-written article that came out shortly after the massacre that happened in the church in Charleston, South Carolina. I'm sorry that I missed it.
It explains the thoughts, feelings, emotions and psychological damages done and continually endured by a mass of people yearning to be relieved of their pain. I am sharing it because:
1- I felt that it is such a well written piece of prose
2- It eloquently communicates an undercurrent of frustration that I seem to have failed to do time and again that colors conversations that we have on socio-political issues in the hopes that with 'a few steps in my shoes', discussions on race can work better
3- I think the author does an excellent job transporting the reader into the intimate space of conversation that is in his head and heart and gives a glimpse into he relationship with his lovely grandmother and how debilitating ideas are passed from generation to generation
4- This article breeds hope because there is now an attempt to examine the barriers to truth
From the article: “Evil loves tomorrow because peddling in possibility is what abusers do."
[WARNING: THE ARTICLE IS NOT FOR THE "SNOWFLAKE".]
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/23/black-churchesforgive-white-people-shame?CMP=share_btn_fb
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Do you think one could strip the racism out of the sentiment expressed in the title and come out ahead?
I mean, how about:
Black Churches Taught us to Forgive White People
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Do you think one could strip the racism out of the sentiment expressed in the title and come out ahead?
I mean, how about:
Black Churches Taught us to Forgive White People
The Church is where we go to learn to forgive. Race has very little to do with forgiveness, except in the minds of people with a preconceived opinion that infuses race into every discussion.
I've been absent frequently, lately, because I'm battling cancer. The treatment schemes can be murder, but, I am frequently reminded that the church, like the practice of medicine, is colorblind.
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The Church is where we go to learn to forgive. Race has very little to do with forgiveness, except in the minds of people with a preconceived opinion that infuses race into every discussion.
I've been absent frequently, lately, because I'm battling cancer. The treatment schemes can be murder, but, I am frequently reminded that the church, like the practice of medicine, is colorblind.
Shit. I'm sorry to hear that, FC. Best wishes to you.
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Do you think one could strip the racism out of the sentiment expressed in the title and come out ahead?
I mean, how about:
Black Churches Taught us to Forgive White People
It completely changes the point of the article.
Here's the digest: this learned forgiveness is and has been unhealthy for blacks. Additionally, the forgiveness has only worked one way and one way only.
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I've been absent frequently, lately, because I'm battling cancer. The treatment schemes can be murder, but, I am frequently reminded that the church, like the practice of medicine, is colorblind.
I hope you beat it FC.
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I have done nothing as a white person that requires anyone's forgiveness.
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It completely changes the point of the article.
Here's the digest: this learned forgiveness is and has been unhealthy for blacks. Additionally, the forgiveness has only worked one way and one way only.
That chip on your shoulder is damaging your credibility.
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Really? Duh.
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It completely changes the point of the article.
Here's the digest: this learned forgiveness is and has been unhealthy for blacks. Additionally, the forgiveness has only worked one way and one way only.
Here's a question: do you believe that is true?
"that" being the unhealthy for blacks and the forgiveness being one way.
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Here's a question: do you believe that is true?
"that" being the unhealthy for blacks and the forgiveness being one way.
I believe that forgiveness is a noble ideal. But I believe that our forgiveness is not genuine for the benefit of both but rather the detriment of both, for it is rooted in powerlessness and fear.
White America does not forgive nor forget. Look at how she handles entire nations of people- Unforgiveness from what is advertised as a Christian nation; hypocrisy.
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That chip on your shoulder is damaging your credibility.
Pot calling the kettle metal.
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Pot calling the kettle metal.
Whatever, Jaybird. Enjoy wallowing in your self pity.
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White America does not forgive nor forget. Look at how she handles entire nations of people- Unforgiveness from what is advertised as a Christian nation; hypocrisy.
What constitutes forgiveness? Germany and Japan seem to have been forgiven, if not by words then by actions.
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What constitutes forgiveness? Germany and Japan seem to have been forgiven, if not by words then by actions.
Poor choice of examples. Both have severe limits on their ability to be free peoples (hint: a free people are free to build a military to support their nationalistic agendas).
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Whatever, Jaybird. Enjoy wallowing in your self pity.
Ha!
No sir, not here. I don't lay with swine.
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I read about half way through it. What struck me is the absence of adult male involvement in this story. From our fathers we tend to learn to compete and make our place and from our mothers we tend to learn the skills of getting along. I am not sure where that fits into the racism narrative, it seems like it is harder to find your place in the world without those two roles being filed.
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Poor choice of examples. Both have severe limits on their ability to be free peoples (hint: a free people are free to build a military to support their nationalistic agendas).
You lost me! Are us Norwegian-Americans not free because we haven't formed the Lutefisk Liberation Army? :)
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I think the Germans and Japanese would dispute the contention that they do not have a military capability.
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What constitutes forgiveness? Germany and Japan seem to have been forgiven, if not by words then by actions.
Oh, and Italy. Don't forget Italy. :)
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The Church is where we go to learn to forgive. Race has very little to do with forgiveness, except in the minds of people with a preconceived opinion that infuses race into every discussion.
I've been absent frequently, lately, because I'm battling cancer. The treatment schemes can be murder, but, I am frequently reminded that the church, like the practice of medicine, is colorblind.
FC, sorry to hear about your cancer. Stay strong, get better, I'll be praying for you.
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I haven't read the article yet, but if one person sins, is everyone of the same race responsible?
Racism is alive and well. The scariest part about it is that some of its most fervent participants have absolutely no idea how racist they are. Another irony of life.
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I believe that forgiveness is a noble ideal. But I believe that our forgiveness is not genuine for the benefit of both but rather the detriment of both, for it is rooted in powerlessness and fear.
White America does not forgive nor forget. Look at how she handles entire nations of people- Unforgiveness from what is advertised as a Christian nation; hypocrisy.
good grief.
you are wrong wrong wrong wrong.
I'm stunned by your misunderstanding of "forgiveness" and your racism.
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I haven't read the article yet, but if one person sins, is everyone of the same race responsible?
I think the answer depends on how much zoom is on the lens. In order to adequately discuss the matter, I think it's difficult for people to first deal with how a derived answer would affect them personally- objectivity is severely compromised.
What is sorely misunderstood is that in globalism where racism is concerned, nobody gets away unaffected. We have a systematic model that pits one against the other and the competition floor is skewed in such a way that any semblance of a meritocracy is serverly crippled.
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good grief.
you are wrong wrong wrong wrong.
I'm stunned by your misunderstanding of "forgiveness" and your racism.
I am taken aback by your eloquence, as much as I am by the substantively devoid personal attack good fellow.
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I read about half way through it. What struck me is the absence of adult male involvement in this story. From our fathers we tend to learn to compete and make our place and from our mothers we tend to learn the skills of getting along. I am not sure where that fits into the racism narrative, it seems like it is harder to find your place in the world without those two roles being filed.
Good observation! From the article, we don't have enough information to draw solid conclusions about the authors family structure. I consider that he is only telling of a few aspects of his upbringing.
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I think the Germans and Japanese would dispute the contention that they do not have a military capability.
I think they are required to observe an armistice agreement signed at the conclusion of WWII....?
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I think the answer depends on how much zoom is on the lens. In order to adequately discuss the matter, I think it's difficult for people to first deal with how a derived answer would affect them personally- objectivity is severely compromised.
What is sorely misunderstood is that in globalism where racism is concerned, nobody gets away unaffected. We have a systematic model that pits one against the other and the competition floor is skewed in such a way that any semblance of a meritocracy is serverly crippled.
So you have been forced into poverty and subservience by racism?
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So you have been forced into poverty and subservience by racism?
Clearly he has - by the same kind of institutional racism that would make it virtually impossible for a black man to ever become president of the US.
Oh, wait...
Never mind.
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I am taken aback by your eloquence, as much as I am by the substantively devoid personal attack good fellow.
personal attack?
Calling you out on your racism is not an attack, but a statement of fact.
Calling you out on your misunderstanding is not an attack, but a statement of fact.
Now, if I had called you an ignorant moron because you don't understand "hypocrisy", well, that would have been a personal attack of sorts.
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I think they are required to observe an armistice agreement signed at the conclusion of WWII....?
Without researching it, my understanding is that the Japanees Constitution, which we practically wrote for them, bans an offensive military but allows a domestic, defensive military. But there is no reason they can't change that. They have voted on the issue before but always declined. It is much cheaper to allow us, a country they trust, to defend them. At least they use to trust us until we started favoring our enemies over our friends.
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The Church is where we go to learn to forgive. Race has very little to do with forgiveness, except in the minds of people with a preconceived opinion that infuses race into every discussion.
I've been absent frequently, lately, because I'm battling cancer. The treatment schemes can be murder, but, I am frequently reminded that the church, like the practice of medicine, is colorblind.
Welcome back. Sorry to hear about you battling cancer as it truly is a bitch. Best of luck in your fight, you can win this!
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Without researching it, my understanding is that the Japanees Constitution, which we practically wrote for them, bans an offensive military but allows a domestic, defensive military. But there is no reason they can't change that. They have voted on the issue before but always declined. It is much cheaper to allow us, a country they trust, to defend them. At least they use to trust us until we started favoring our enemies over our friends.
...and the British when they "gave" India their independence said they would rule through the Indian who thinks of himself as free (see the speech of Sir John Packington to the East Indian Trading Company). This is now world-wide practice.
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personal attack?
Calling you out on your racism is not an attack, but a statement of fact.
Calling you out on your misunderstanding is not an attack, but a statement of fact.
Now, if I had called you an ignorant moron because you don't understand "hypocrisy", well, that would have been a personal attack of sorts.
How is it racism to point out racism? I call you to mind this statement in the OP:
“Evil loves tomorrow because peddling in possibility is what abusers do."
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Responding to racism and playing the race card are very different things.
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Responding to racism and playing the race card are very different things.
The "race card" is at 2:48 in this video
https://youtu.be/5jp0ONJZF74
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The Church is where we go to learn to forgive. Race has very little to do with forgiveness, except in the minds of people with a preconceived opinion that infuses race into every discussion.
I've been absent frequently, lately, because I'm battling cancer. The treatment schemes can be murder, but, I am frequently reminded that the church, like the practice of medicine, is colorblind.
Sorry to hear. Get well soon brother.
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The "race card" is at 2:48 in this video
https://youtu.be/5jp0ONJZF74
That YouTube leads to more, which appear to have the entire movie available in short sections. I have never seen the movie, so I just may watch them all. What I've seen so far is some excellent acting and some very good subject matter.
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The "race card" is at 2:48 in this video
https://youtu.be/5jp0ONJZF74
This is shaping up to be an excellent movie.
Never seen a training barracks where smoking was allowed. We had a gallon butt can strapped to every post, with exactly one inch of water in it, but if a butt was ever found therein, we would all be running laps and doing pushups.
Smokers had an ankle holster for their pack of cigs, and no one was allowed to touch it until the order was given, "Smoke em if you got em."
Butts were field stripped and all areas policed and if a single butt was found anywhere, pushups were the order of the day.
Beds would bounce a quarter and when a string was run down the middle, all bed posts damn well better just touch that string. That floor damn well better reflect your face or you would be waxing all night.
But you know all that.
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I think the answer depends on how much zoom is on the lens. In order to adequately discuss the matter, I think it's difficult for people to first deal with how a derived answer would affect them personally- objectivity is severely compromised.
What is sorely misunderstood is that in globalism where racism is concerned, nobody gets away unaffected. We have a systematic model that pits one against the other and the competition floor is skewed in such a way that any semblance of a meritocracy is serverly crippled.
I think you are saying -- whether you mean to be or not -- that everyone the world over is racist. If you substitute fear of the other for "racism", I think you would be correct. Racism is, at most, as subset of fear of the outsider and the nature competition that occurs between groups. Color of the skin might be a shorthand for the "other", it is clearly not a sina qua non, given the slaughter taking place on the tribal level in Africa, often driven by religion. It is also not a factor when Protestants and Catholics are killing each other in Northern Ireland.
One can look at the world through the lens of epidermal pigmentation, but I am not sure where it gets one other than an excuse for whatever disappoints one harbors.
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...and the British when they "gave" India their independence said they would rule through the Indian who thinks of himself as free (see the speech of Sir John Packington to the East Indian Trading Company). This is now world-wide practice.
The East India Company was dissolved in 1874 and Packington was referring to its involvement in running India. It has no bearing on Indian independence in 1947 or its current government now. That is a bunch of paranoid BS.
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This is shaping up to be an excellent movie.
Never seen a training barracks where smoking was allowed. We had a gallon butt can strapped to every post, with exactly one inch of water in it, but if a butt was ever found therein, we would all be running laps and doing pushups.
Smokers had an ankle holster for their pack of cigs, and no one was allowed to touch it until the order was given, "Smoke em if you got em."
Butts were field stripped and all areas policed and if a single butt was found anywhere, pushups were the order of the day.
Beds would bounce a quarter and when a string was run down the middle, all bed posts damn well better just touch that string. That floor damn well better reflect your face or you would be waxing all night.
But you know all that.
Some of what is there is out of the movie "Redtails" which was an excellent movie.
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I think I have said most of this previously.
Benjamin O. Davis was the Commander of Clark when I was stationed there, and he went on to much higher military status. My AF Drill Instructor was a black guy. He ruled my life for six weeks and taught me respect, discipline, tenacity, and brotherhood. My best friend in Nam was a black guy. Yep, they had some high hurdles and some stupid, ignorant obstacles, but I was not and am not one of them and I owe no one any apologies, and no one owes me any forgiveness.
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Regarding the title of this thread: "Black Churches Taught us to FORGIVE White People"
I wonder how relatively often "Black Churches Taught us to HATE White People" is true? Perhaps there is/was only one, but Jeremiah Wright's Church has been burned into my brain, with Obama in his pews for >20 years.
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I think you are saying -- whether you mean to be or not -- that everyone the world over is racist. If you substitute fear of the other for "racism", I think you would be correct. Racism is, at most, as subset of fear of the outsider and the nature competition that occurs between groups. Color of the skin might be a shorthand for the "other", it is clearly not a sina qua non, given the slaughter taking place on the tribal level in Africa, often driven by religion. It is also not a factor when Protestants and Catholics are killing each other in Northern Ireland.
One can look at the world through the lens of epidermal pigmentation, but I am not sure where it gets one other than an excuse for whatever disappoints one harbors.
By reducing racism to fear you remove the methodical, calculating approach to disadvantage groups of "other". Yes there is a lot of just basic "I don't know him and therefore don't trust " but there is a lot of learned behavioral and thought patterns keeping that machine going.
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This is shaping up to be an excellent movie.
Never seen a training barracks where smoking was allowed. We had a gallon butt can strapped to every post, with exactly one inch of water in it, but if a butt was ever found therein, we would all be running laps and doing pushups.
Smokers had an ankle holster for their pack of cigs, and no one was allowed to touch it until the order was given, "Smoke em if you got em."
Butts were field stripped and all areas policed and if a single butt was found anywhere, pushups were the order of the day.
Beds would bounce a quarter and when a string was run down the middle, all bed posts damn well better just touch that string. That floor damn well better reflect your face or you would be waxing all night.
But you know all that.
THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN is actually an HBO Originals movie and deserves to be seen properly. Can't believe that any aviator and military buff hadn't seen it- I thought it was par for the course.
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That YouTube leads to more, which appear to have the entire movie available in short sections. I have never seen the movie, so I just may watch them all. What I've seen so far is some excellent acting and some very good subject matter.
I will check my DVD stack, I think I have it. If so, I'll loan it to you.
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The East India Company was dissolved in 1874 and Packington was referring to its involvement in running India. It has no bearing on Indian independence in 1947 or its current government now. That is a bunch of paranoid BS.
Ever known a tyrant to just step aside? I don't think so.
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By reducing racism to fear you remove the methodical, calculating approach to disadvantage groups of "other". Yes there is a lot of just basic "I don't know him and therefore don't trust " but there is a lot of learned behavioral and thought patterns keeping that machine going.
A lot of that learned behavior is born out of criminal empirical data.
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By reducing racism to fear you remove the methodical, calculating approach to disadvantage groups of "other". Yes there is a lot of just basic "I don't know him and therefore don't trust " but there is a lot of learned behavioral and thought patterns keeping that machine going.
Ever since our ancestors started to walk on two legs, or even earlier, you have groups trying to get advantage over other groups in the competition for resources. This is not intrinsically racial. It does play on the tribal nature of humans.
To the degree that there are institutionalized barriers to particular groups, those need to be removed. We still have some work to do with respect to different racial groups, but we also have work to do to break down gender barriers, etc. When one group has all the levers of power, then they are naturally going to advantage themselves. It used to be that all the power was white, male, anglo-saxon protestants. That was the case less than100 years ago. Change is happening. But no one is going to give us "others" power. We have to assert ourselves. The best we can hope for is to break through the barriers or remove them in any way possible.
I just think that the whole thing is bigger than the color of ones skin.
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Ever known a tyrant to just step aside? I don't think so.
The UK hasn't been governed by a tyrant in centuries. European governments removed their colonial presence in the post-war period. The U.S. disengaged itself from the Philippines and gave Japan back to the Japanese.
You are correct that autocratic, tyrannical rulers don't step aside, but that is not what we are talking about. If you can't see the distinctions then I think we are part way to understanding the problems with your worldview.
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The UK hasn't been governed by a tyrant in centuries. European governments removed their colonial presence in the post-war period. The U.S. disengaged itself from the Philippines and gave Japan back to the Japanese.
You are correct that autocratic, tyrannical rulers don't step aside, but that is not what we are talking about. If you can't see the distinctions then I think we are part way to understanding the problems with your worldview.
I was just....about to say that I like you more now..... Ha ha... but I'll say it in spite of your parting shot.
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I was just....about to say that I like you more now..... Ha ha... but I'll say it in spite of your parting shot.
Not meant as a shot, merely an observation. I think we need to try to broaden our view and come together to remove barriers. My barriers are different than yours, but they are barriers to opportunity, nonetheless.