PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on January 29, 2025, 08:02:41 PM
-
https://x.com/bnonews/status/1884791040890089602?s=61&t=aDsC0bnNXYPkmuFfQCzZPQ (https://x.com/bnonews/status/1884791040890089602?s=61&t=aDsC0bnNXYPkmuFfQCzZPQ)
Helicopter hit an AA regional jet.
-
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL5342
The comments on X. I just can’t.
-
https://x.com/simonateba/status/1884804857283981367
DISASTER - MAJOR DEVELOPMENT IN WASHINGTON DC: Large-Scale Rescue Underway After Deadly Mid-Air Collision Near Reagan Airport
A massive rescue operation is in progress after a mid-air collision between an American Airlines regional jet and a Black Hawk helicopter over the Potomac River near Reagan National Airport. Emergency crews are racing against time to locate survivors in the icy waters.
What We Know So Far:
The American Airlines Bombardier CRJ 700 (Flight 5342) was arriving from Wichita, Kansas when it collided with a Sikorsky H-60 Black Hawk helicopter over the Potomac River.
Both aircraft crashed into the water, prompting an immediate multi-agency response.
The exact number of passengers on board remains unknown, but regional jets of this type typically carry between 50 and 100 people.
Officials have not confirmed which government agency operated the Black Hawk helicopter, but such aircraft are commonly used for military and diplomatic transport.
The FAA has confirmed the collision happened at 9 P.M. local time as Flight 5342 was on approach to Runway 33 at Reagan Airport.
Emergency Response & Investigation:
Fireboats, helicopters, and dive teams from D.C., Virginia, and Maryland are actively searching for survivors.
The NTSB and FAA have launched an investigation into the cause of the crash.
EarthCam footage appears to show the moment of impact, with a fireball explosion before both aircraft tumbled into the river.
Freezing temperatures and ice in the Potomac could hinder rescue efforts.
Official Statements & Next Steps:
Senator Jerry Moran (R-KS) and Senator Roger Marshall (R-KS) have acknowledged the crash, confirming contact with authorities.
NTSB investigators will take over once rescue efforts transition to recovery operations.
Authorities are expected to provide further updates by morning as more details emerge.
-
The video that FoxNEWS is showing shows the chopper from a long way off. Hard to believe they would not have seen the CRJ.
-
We met with my wife's Neurosurgeon today. She just completed a spinal cord stimulater trial and the company rep was there and we got some time with her before the doctor came in. Turns out her daughter was just promoted to Captain with PSA in January and flies the 700 & 900s.
-
That looks way too intentional for me.
I’d bet the secretary’s are thinking the same.
That chopper went right at the CRJ.
-
EppyGA posted this on the purpleboard, which shows the tracks of both aircraft up to the collision:
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae313d,a97753&lat=38.858&lon=-77.027&zoom=13.6&showTrace=2025-01-30&trackLabels (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae313d,a97753&lat=38.858&lon=-77.027&zoom=13.6&showTrace=2025-01-30&trackLabels)
-
The LiveATC feed for that time period is not avaialble
-
Dude on Fox saying he believes the CRJ descended onto the chopper.
-
ATC called out traffic to the helo but helo guy probably saw that other plane and thought that was the traffic. Here it is from another angle:
https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1884812906333622495
-
Sounds like everybody died. Local hospitals are reporting not receiving any victims. At least according to MSN as of an hour ago.
Usually when on short final on a commercial flight I start to relax. Not anymore although I don’t think this was quite “short” final yet. Is there a standard definition of when regular final becomes short?
-
Probably pretty close to what happened.
https://x.com/SoggyBottom22/status/1884897432745689443
Lots of context gained from ATC recordings, radar, and flight paths;
I believe helicopter had the wrong CRJ jet in sight, and they were looking left and down at their intended landing on opposite shore from the airport, and away from approaching jet.
CRJ Jet was switched by ATC to runway 33 for departing traffic, so they were looking down and left & very low on final approach, looking away from the helicopter.
ATC thought the helicopter had the jet in sight, because they said so, and were cleared to “pass behind” the jet, so the close radar track wasn’t alarming to ATC, but they did ask the heli twice.
Helicopter was 200’’ high, was supposed to be below 200’.
Dark night, underneath the jet, looking away from each other; they never saw each other.
Mil-Heli PAT25 was “dark mode” so ADS-B OFF= no alarm for jet.
Disaster.
-
Why was the chopper in "Dark Mode" when in controlled Airspace?
Where has this been reported?
-
The whole audio including before the crash.
-
I’ve flown into DCA many times, in that model of CRJ. You haveto be on your game. Basically you approach over the river. IMO landing to the north (01,33) is easier than landing south. Capital, monuments etc are a factor when landing to the south. One can actually be shot down if you wander off the river too far.
There are low level helicopter routes in that area. The UH60 should have been at or below 200’ in that area. Over on POA someone stated the UH60 was at 400’. I have no proof that was the case. As lit up as the CRJ was it’s inconceivable that the UH60 did not see the CRJ. ATC issued traffic to the UH60 and told them to pass behind the CRJ.
Terrible and preventable accident.
-
Here's the radar...
https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1884827088437264387
Looks to me like the Blackhawk was up and down. I see 400' and 300' when they come together.
-
(http://)
Also seeing articles about DEI in air traffic controller hiring.
-
Perspective from an experienced airman.
https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2025/01/29/reagan-national-airport-blackhawk-crj-crash/
-
(http://)
Also seeing articles about DEI in air traffic controller hiring.
Doesn't appear to be a factor in this accident.
-
(http://)
Also seeing articles about DEI in air traffic controller hiring.
The controller instructed the UH60 to pass behind the CRJ-700.
As for DEI hiring for ATC it’s a problem. Some you can’t understand and have to have them repeat what they said. I was ATC in the Air Force back in the 70s-80s and it was a problem back then too. Some jobs require higher hiring standards. Old Crow on here trained USAF controllers, he might have something to add.
-
(http://)
Also seeing articles about DEI in air traffic controller hiring.
one of the times when President Trump should STFU because he doesn't understand the subject domain.
-
one of the times when President Trump should STFU because he doesn't understand the subject domain.
I disagree! Trump does know what he’s talking about. Some occupations require competent peop,e, piloting and ATC are two of them. It’s a fact Obama strived to hire more unqualified minorities into both these occupations because they were “too white”. One only has to look at Kamala and see how that plays out.
-
I disagree! Trump does know what he’s talking about. Some occupations require competent peop,e, piloting and ATC are two of them. It’s a fact Obama strived to hire more unqualified minorities into both these occupations because they were “too white”. One only has to look at Kamala and see how that plays out.
I have to agree.
The need to find anything at all to attack the President is so stupidly obsessive right now.
-
I have to agree.
The need to find anything at all to attack the President is so stupidly obsessive right now.
That’s all they got! They know their asinine programs they put in place are ridiculous. And they’re all nervous about the Trump administration exposing their corruption.
-
one of the times when President Trump should STFU because he doesn't understand the subject domain.
And you know this how?
-
The case for intention is getting more and more real.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/urgent-call-return-base-choppers-strange-movements-make/
-
And you know this how?
for example "why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do..."
that's not exactly how the system works...
but I don't expect the average person to know this stuff.
but of course, President Trump is an expert on everything. I'm sorry for ever doubting him.
-
for example "why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do..."
that's not exactly how the system works...
but I don't expect the average person to know this stuff.
but of course, President Trump is an expert on everything. I'm sorry for ever doubting him.
Or…the Current President of the United States is not a senile, commie, corrupt, scumbag, and actually did I his job last night and knows things you don’t know.
How shocking to imagine, isn’t it?
-
for example "why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do..."
that's not exactly how the system works...
but I don't expect the average person to know this stuff.
You don’t think the president is being advised by people who do know?
-
ATC staffing levels are low. Why? Funds being diverted to take care of illegals and of course DEI.
Previous administration and DOT Sec were more interested in DEI rather than bringing ATC staffing up.
So when I hear “DEI had nothing to do with it” I say bullshit.
-
Previous administration and DOT Sec were more interested in DEI rather than bringing ATC staffing up.
Roads are racist. Maybe airways are too.
-
ATC was (is) badly understaffed, according to this. There were only 19 certified controllers out of a target of 30, and they’re working 10 hour shifts 6 days a week. On the night of the crash there were supposed to be two separate controllers for the Reagan traffic and the military helicopters but there was one controlling both (on two channels?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14344591/american-airlines-crash-washington-dc-hours-plane-missed-helicopter.html
I honestly don’t know if DEI per se is the problem or if they simply don’t have enough competent applicants.
-
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/18SAaiVL4s/
-
Maybe something as simple as, "PAT25 turn heading xxx" might have helped.
-
https://x.com/nicksortor/status/1885116473217032426
-
Maybe something as simple as, "PAT25 turn heading xxx" might have helped.
THAT! This is what’s been bugging me in the back of my mind… give them a VECTOR, like just a bit earlier and I’m wondering what the workload on the controller was that he couldn't see the plainly obvious conflict building.
-
A Transgender Pilot Named Jo Ellis Flew Blackhawk Helicopter Into the American Airlines Jet at Reagan National
https://www.smobserved.com/story/2025/01/30/news/a-transgender-pilot-named-jo-ellis-flew-blackhawk-helicopter-into-the-american-airlines-jet-at-reagan-national/8719.html
And from right here in River City:
https://www.news-journalonline.com/
He was captain of the CRJ. So far I have not heard he was at fault.
edit to add this jewell:
A Transgender Pilot Named Jo Ellis Flew Blackhawk Helicopter Into the American Airlines Jet at Reagan National
Jo Ellis served in the Virginia National Guard for 15 years and transitioned while serving as a pilot. She hated Trump. Accident was a Murder Suicide
https://www.smobserved.com/story/2025/01/30/news/a-transgender-pilot-named-jo-ellis-flew-blackhawk-helicopter-into-the-american-airlines-jet-at-reagan-national/8719.html
-
Maybe something as simple as, "PAT25 turn heading xxx" might have helped.
We were flying home a couple of days ago on an IFR flight plan.
ATC warned us of traffic crossing in front of us. We gave the "traffic in sight" and ATC said to maintain visual separation. A few minutes later the other plane did a 180 and was headed straight at us. ATC told us to turn right immediatedly and decend. We again told him we had traffic in sight and he again said "Ok, maintain visual separation".
If we (or the CRJ pilot) told ATC that we have traffic in sight, ATC is going to believe us/them. That appears what the controller did here.
-
I do find this...
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ArePGMFCr/
-
I do find this...
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ArePGMFCr/
Wow! Defamation lawsuit!
-
Maybe something as simple as, "PAT25 turn heading xxx" might have helped.
PAT25 acknowledged the traffic and was instructed to maintain visual separation. Then the controller instructed PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ700. Visual separation is used hundreds of times by ATC daily, maybe thousands. It’s then the pilot’s responsibility to maneuver and avid the aircraft. It actually lessens the controller’s work load.
-
PAT25 acknowledged the traffic and was instructed to maintain visual separation. Then the controller instructed PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ700. Visual separation is used hundreds of times by ATC daily, maybe thousands. It’s then the pilot’s responsibility to maneuver and avid the aircraft. It actually lessens the controller’s work load.
Good point and what happened was the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up: they saw a different plane and said they had traffic in sight. Almost like a fate thing, like it was nobody’s fault from the point of view of each individual, everybody thought things were good on their end. But the NTSB will find fault with one or more of them. Probably nail the the helo pilot for failure to maintain visual separation and maybe exceeding maximum altitude with contributing factors like ATC workload, fatigue, the confusing position of a different plane, etc.
-
There’s so much crap on x I had to ask Grok who the three helo guys actually were:
The three individuals on board the U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter when it collided with the CRJ were:
Chief Warrant Officer Andrew Eaves - One of the pilots.
Chief Warrant Officer John Carter - The other pilot.
Ryan O'Hara - The crew chief.
This information is based on posts found on X.
-
Maintaining visual separation at night is super risky.
-
Maintaining visual separation at night is super risky.
Maintaining visual separation in a crowded Class B period. Whenever we flew into that kind of airspace, even being completely IFR vectored by ATC, if it was VMC I took it as my JOB, as if my very life and the lives of my children depended on it, to scan for traffic. Didn’t matter what ATC was telling us. Didn’t matter that hubby was also doing it.
If it was IMC all I could do was look for the ground and look ahead for the runway to break out. And pray to the ATC gods that they were on top of things.
-
ATC was (is) badly understaffed, according to this. There were only 19 certified controllers out of a target of 30, and they’re working 10 hour shifts 6 days a week. On the night of the crash there were supposed to be two separate controllers for the Reagan traffic and the military helicopters but there was one controlling both (on two channels?)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14344591/american-airlines-crash-washington-dc-hours-plane-missed-helicopter.html
I honestly don’t know if DEI per se is the problem or if they simply don’t have enough competent applicants.
FAA Embroiled in Lawsuit Alleging it Turned Away 1,000 Applicants Based On Race
https://nypost.com/2025/01/31/us-news/faa-embroiled-in-lawsuit-alleging-it-turned-away-1000-applicants-based-on-race/
-
Maintaining visual separation at night is super risky.
Why? I’ve been flying over 50 years, airline and GA, and never thought it any riskier than daytime. Airline world uses it all the time.
-
Blackhawk 1/2 mile off course and too high.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14345293/catastrophic-mistakes-Washington-DC-plane-crash.html
-
Why? I’ve been flying over 50 years, airline and GA, and never thought it any riskier than daytime. Airline world uses it all the time.
Sometimes it’s actually easier to see other aircraft at night but I was mostly flying around non- big cities. Their lights really stand out against a black sky and mostly dark ground but in daytime the lights are way less noticeable and they blend into the landscape. Above the horizon it’s a little easier.
-
FAA Embroiled in Lawsuit Alleging it Turned Away 1,000 Applicants Based On Race
https://nypost.com/2025/01/31/us-news/faa-embroiled-in-lawsuit-alleging-it-turned-away-1000-applicants-based-on-race/
This really needs to be sorted out. That’s not how DEI is supposed to work. You are supposed to give preferential treatment to anybody except straight white males but if you can’t find a qualified applicant among the “oppressed” you may then hire the straight white male, but with documentation about how hard you tried to find a qualified somebody not a straight white male.
This is how it worked at my husband’s former employment. He could hire the white guy but had to prove to the bosses and HR, that he had tried to find black lesbian Hispanic non-binary differently-abled people but couldn’t and so sadly had to resort to this very qualified regular white dude.
One time the most qualified person was a black woman. She outshone all the other applicants and he hired her. I met her, she is a fantastic person and excellent engineer. What pisses me off most about DEI is that it makes everyone assume people like her are DEI hires. How the hell is that good for her?!
Anyhoo, it is NOT supposed to work like, we simply aren’t going to hire white guys, and we have to lower standards to hire the BIPOC etc. This is where you throw merit out the window with catastrophic results.
-
PAT25 acknowledged the traffic and was instructed to maintain visual separation. Then the controller instructed PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ700. Visual separation is used hundreds of times by ATC daily, maybe thousands. It’s then the pilot’s responsibility to maneuver and avid the aircraft. It actually lessens the controller’s work load.
So, the controller could just watch the two on radar as they collided. That truly sucks.
-
So, the controller could just watch the two on radar as they collided. That truly sucks.
I don't think the controllers radar has quite that high a resolution.
-
I don't think the controllers radar has quite that high a resolution.
The replay I saw bounced around a lot if I was reading the altitude right. More than I think the aircraft were actually bouncing around in reality.
-
So, the controller could just watch the two on radar as they collided. That truly sucks.
Towers aren’t radar equipped although they most likely had a radar display in the tower cab. When I did ATC in the Air Force we had a “repeater” radar display that showed targets only, no data block that would have call sign and altitude info for example. Now that was 35 years ago so I don’t know what they have today. Tower controllers should be looking outside at what they are controlling. That’s why the tower has those large windows 360*. Believe me no controller wants to witness a collision.
-
The replay I saw bounced around a lot if I was reading the altitude right. More than I think the aircraft were actually bouncing around in reality.
Check out what data that replay used. If it's a multilateration source, the "bounced around" could just be a problem with the how the data was captured/generated.
-
Maybe something as simple as, "PAT25 turn heading xxx" might have helped.
The helicopter might have been below the altitude which ATC can issue vectors. Also consider what party assumes ground avoidance when vectors are issued and accepted. Perhaps someone with current ATC experience can remind us...it's been quite some time since I've read the applicable standards.
-
Apparently the criteria under biden to be picked for high office included mandatory zero knowledge about the office, or the job.
https://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2025/01/31/bidens-first-pick-to-lead-faa-was-a-total-dei-hire-who-knew-nothing-about-aviation-n4936551
-
Names (and pictures) of the UH-60 crew have been published except for the female pilot. Family requests her name be withheld. Very odd.
-
Maybe another tranny wanting to be ‘seen.’
-
Names (and pictures) of the UH-60 crew have been published except for the female pilot. Family requests her name be withheld. Very odd.
I don’t find it odd in the least. Even if there’s nothing weird going on like she’s a tranny, people are so brutal and stupid when something - anything - gets wide publicity, if I had a kid that got killed I’d want it kept the hell out of the spotlight too. My God. Let me grieve in peace.
But it’s a personal choice, obviously the other two families didn’t feel that way. Rumors are the girl (?) only had 500 hours and she may have been the focus of the training mission ergo her hand on the controls ergo the blame is going to be heaped on her. The family may be sensing that’s the direction things will go and her memory will rightly or wrongly be besmirched and dragged through the mud.
The pain of losing my kid (mate, sibling, etc,) is bad enough without having to put up with that extra load, which will come with harassment up to and including death threats to the family itself. The public contains a lot of psychos and plain old idiots. I’d want to keep it private too.
The only thing I will concede is that the identity will come out eventually and the very fact of trying to keep it private is fueling conspiracy theories and kinda making it worse.
-
Yes, but it's a little hard to keep it private when you very publicly kill 67 people.
-
Yes, but it's a little hard to keep it private when you very publicly kill 67 people.
Let’s not convict her yet until we get the final NTSB report.
-
Let’s not convict her yet until we get the final NTSB report.
is that kind of like a movie quote (I can't remember the movie)... there will be a fair trail, a fair finding of guity, and a fair hanging... or something like that...
(A quick search with google-fu and it could have been "Silverado")
-
Rebecca Lobach from near my old home!
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1885816056914071619
-
God there are some real assholes on X.
-
There’s so much crap on x I had to ask Grok who the three helo guys actually were:
The three individuals on board the U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter when it collided with the CRJ were:
Chief Warrant Officer Andrew Eaves - One of the pilots.
Chief Warrant Officer John Carter - The other pilot.
Ryan O'Hara - The crew chief.
This information is based on posts found on X.
From MS Copilot today:
who were the three pilots on the black hawk helicopter that crashed in DCA
The three pilots on the Black Hawk helicopter that crashed near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport were:
Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Eaves (39 years old) from Great Mills, Maryland.
Staff Sgt. Ryan O’Hara (28 years old) from Lilburn, Georgia.
Captain Rebecca Lobach (28 years old) from Durham, North Carolina.
None of them were trans-sexuals.
-
From MS Copilot today:
who were the three pilots on the black hawk helicopter that crashed in DCA
The three pilots on the Black Hawk helicopter that crashed near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport were:
Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Eaves (39 years old) from Great Mills, Maryland.
Staff Sgt. Ryan O’Hara (28 years old) from Lilburn, Georgia.
Captain Rebecca Lobach (28 years old) from Durham, North Carolina.
None of them were trans-sexuals.
I’m thinking Rebecca was a regular lesbian.
X is really pissing me off. “Women shouldn’t be pilots!” Yeah, that Patty Wagstaff is a real clutz. ::)
-
Why scrub her entire social media presence after the crash and before releasing her name?
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/02/female-pilot-rebecca-lobach-had-her-entire-social/
-
Why scrub her entire social media presence after the crash and before releasing her name?
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/02/female-pilot-rebecca-lobach-had-her-entire-social/
Because whoever was pilot in command or had the highest rank was going to get shit on. People lost their lives and even people unrelated to the dead seem to find outrage and shit on whoever they conclude is at fault. That and misogyny is alive and well.
-
I’m thinking Rebecca was a regular lesbian.
X is really pissing me off. “Women shouldn’t be pilots!” Yeah, that Patty Wagstaff is a real clutz. ::)
No, just a drunk ;D
-
No, just a drunk ;D
Remember when she grabbed climbing over an airport fence totally shit faced?
-
No, just a drunk ;D
Oh, I forgot all about that incident. Have there been any other? In any case she used to be a great pilot.
-
No, just a drunk ;D
Didn't she get a DUI at one time?
-
Didn't she get a DUI at one time?
She pled no contest. She drove across an airport that was closed, took a wrong turn and ended up on the runway. Supposedly she got all “You don’t know who I am,” with the deputies after EAA security called them when they saw a car out there. It’s not like she was driving drunk on the highway. But apparently you can get a DUI for having one beer on your lawnmower in your own yard in Wisconsin.
-
She pled no contest. She drove across an airport that was closed, took a wrong turn and ended up on the runway. Supposedly she got all “You don’t know who I am,” with the deputies after EAA security called them when they saw a car out there. It’s not like she was driving drunk on the highway. But apparently you can get a DUI for having one beer on your lawnmower in your own yard in Wisconsin.
Especially if that beer is imported.
Or Bud Light.
-
Why scrub her entire social media presence after the crash and before releasing her name?
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/02/female-pilot-rebecca-lobach-had-her-entire-social/
It's still out there, stored on that gigantic hard drive out in Utah.
-
Oh, I forgot all about that incident. Have there been any other? In any case she used to be a great pilot.
She still flies airshows and her website says that her company gives aerobatic instruction, although I don't know if she is allowed to be a CFI. Yeah, a severe lapse of judgement, but I think she is still a great pilot.
-
She still flies airshows and her website says that her company gives aerobatic instruction, although I don't know if she is allowed to be a CFI. Yeah, a severe lapse of judgement, but I think she is still a great pilot.
Ah thanks. She’s getting up in years too I guess.
-
This is the best analysis I’ve seen anywhere so far:
@marcuschambers9402
11 hours ago
Hey Gary, I am a retired UH60 pilot, (commercial rated) Aviation Safety Officer and DOT certified accident investigator for DOD. The visual view from the Blackhawk is semi blinding with all of the lights in the surrounding area making it extremely difficult to see the CRJs landing light given the angle of each aircraft. The Black hawk crew of 3 had their crew chief sitting in the right window seat leaving the left side of the aircraft blind. A Blackhawk IP typically sits in the front left. During training flights such as NVG currency or training tends to leave a fairly new IP with 1000hrs task saturated leading to mistakes during a flight. The Blackhawk view from the left seat has a windshield I beam obstruction at the 10 o'clock position increasing difficulty seeing the CRJ. The center windshield is about 18 inches wide with smaller structural beams on each side obstructing the right seaters 10 O'clock view. I'm sure they did not see (the correct aircraft) before the impact. The pilots hours in my view as a military pilot are still very low is why I say this 1000 hr IP is fairly new as an IP and the CPT co pilot with 500hrs must have been fairly new to the unit. Just my assessment knowing what I know about Army flight hours and how many a pilot typically accumulates at a unit assignment before being assigned to a new unit after a 3yr assignment. So I see crew mix as a factor leading to IP task saturation and not correcting their altitude or correcting the copilot in the VFR corridor for 200' max. Next, the NTSB will not say anything about this as it would set a blaming precedent to the CRJ, the RNAV GPS RWY 33 MDA at IDTEK allows 497' MDA so either the CRJ was dropping altitude fast or they were too low before IDTEK. I don't have access to hear the tower tapes so I don't know if the CRJ canceled IFR/radar contact due to VFR conditions at or before IDTEK. Regardless, routing priority was the CRJ so,, WHY did the tower ATC not give the Blackhawk instructions to avoid by immediate right turn 180 with 2nm holding in the corridor for avoidance instructions OR climbing go around instructions for the CRJ. The biggest common sense thing to me is why would the FAA EVER approve a 200' corridor when you have commercial aircraft descending from 497' from IDTEK (other side of the river) to RWY 33 RNAV/GPS approach. That is WAY too close and leads for the human error potential to happen as it did. SO in a nutshell, if I were writing my findings from this, the Blackhawk aircraft was flying above the approved corridor altitude of 200' as a contributing factor, tower ATC failed to use clear specifics ( CRJ at your 10 O'clock same altitude) in verbal description of air traffic for the Blackhawk to maintain VFR avoidance, tower ATC failed to give ANY immediate action instruction to either aircraft for crash avoidance, and if the CRJ did not cancel radar contact the CRJs was at a lower than IFR published altitude from GPS point IDTEK as a contributing factor.
Human factors were the big take away with this. I'm certain the CRJ never saw the Blackhawk and the Blackhawk didn't see the CRJ till the last second when there was nothing they could do to avoid it. Responsibility for crash avoidance still sets with the tower ATC to give immediate specific instructions as they see it on their radar or get CA (crash alarms) flashing on their radar screens. It's terrible that in this day and age of technology that we still experience human factor errors whether it is bad/DEI hiring practices of ATC controllers or lack of on duty causing task saturation, low hour crew mix, or failures to maintain published altitudes. Anyways, great video Gary. Hope the Blackhawk info I mentioned is helpful in the bigger picture.
Sorry for no paragraphs, that was him not me. It is a comment under this video. This video doesn’t tell us on this forum anything we don’t already know but it has a great animation that shows just what the BlackHawk would have seen and in what timeframe. There was no chance they could have avoided the collision at that point. Also points out the CRJ was in a bit of a left bank; they had no chance to see the helo.
He also addresses the conspiracy theories that the helo was deliberately aimed at the other plane like a missile, but it’s incredibly hard to purposely hit another moving aircraft, ironically. The “big sky theory” is a thing. It just happens when you don’t want it to on very rare occasions because statistical unlikelihoods aren’t statistical impossibilities.
-
Well first of all the CRJ-700 was on a visual procedure to runway 01 (MOUNT VERNON VISUAL RWY 01). Tower asked if they could accept runway 33, which the crew stated they could. So the CRJ maneuvered VISUALLY for runway 33 and WAS NOT on the RNAV 33 approach. ATC queried the UH-60 if they had the CRJ in sight and both times stated they had the CRJ in sight. ATC the second time instructed the UH-60 to pass behind the CRJ.
So it’s not the best explanation Rush, sorry. I’ve flown the CRJ-700 and with that many passengers their Vref speed would have been 140-145 knots on final.
-
Well first of the CRJ-700 was on a visual procedure to runway 01 (MOUNT VERNON VISUAL RWY 01). Tower asked if they could accept runway 33, which the crew stated they could. So the CRJ maneuvered VISUALLY for runway 33 and WAS NOT on the RNAV 33 approach. ATC queried the UH-60 if they had the CRJ in sight and both times stated they had the CRJ in sight. ATC the second time instructed the UH-60 to pass behind the CRJ.
So it’s not the best explanation Rush, sorry. I’ve flown the CRJ-700 and with that many passengers their Vref speed would have been 140-145 knots on final.
So you’re saying that this statement of his is wrong? “ the RNAV GPS RWY 33 MDA at IDTEK allows 497' MDA so either the CRJ was dropping altitude fast or they were too low before IDTEK.”
Because he was doing a visual approach and not the RNAV approach, the MDA of 497’ doesn’t apply. And he may have descended lower because the runway was shorter. And because he was cleared for a visual approach he was doing nothing wrong, is that what you mean?
-
More insight:
-
So you’re saying that this statement of his is wrong? “ the RNAV GPS RWY 33 MDA at IDTEK allows 497' MDA so either the CRJ was dropping altitude fast or they were too low before IDTEK.”
Because he was doing a visual approach and not the RNAV approach, the MDA of 497’ doesn’t apply. And he may have descended lower because the runway was shorter. And because he was cleared for a visual approach he was doing nothing wrong, is that what you mean?
The CRJ was on the visual river approach to runway 01 as I mentioned. ATC changed it to runway 33, which is basically a side step procedure. Again, they NEVER were cleared for the RNAV approach to 33.
As for altitude the CRJ most likely was flying the PAPI glide slope, (4-light PAPI on left (3.00 degrees glide path) but I don’t know that to be the case.
-
The CRJ was on the visual river approach to runway 01 as I mentioned. ATC changed it to runway 33, which is basically a side step procedure. Again, they NEVER were cleared for the RNAV approach to 33.
As for altitude the CRJ most likely was flying the PAPI glide slope, (4-light PAPI on left (3.00 degrees glide path) but I don’t know that to be the case.
Oh wow. That’s a nuance I missed. It was already on a visual approach to runway 01, so when ATC said hey can you take 33 instead, there was no change from it being visual. Makes sense now.
-
Yeah it’s common there as the departures normally depart on the longest runway, 01-19. So arriving from the south, or north, you often end up landing on another runway so they can get the departure out. It’s fun to fly in there (to me anyway) but ya gotta be on your game.
-
Here are two views of the chopper impacting the jet.
Scroll down to see the other panel.
It sure looks intentional…
https://x.com/RT_com/status/1886545286245257274
-
Here are two views of the chopper impacting the jet.
Scroll down to see the other panel.
It sure looks intentional…
https://x.com/RT_com/status/1886545286245257274
There’s no way it doesn’t look intentional from a third point of view because they were on a collision course. I notice in the videos they are both visible against the sky. But from their points of view the other craft isn’t so easy to see.
-
A helicopter moves forward with its nose down - beats me if that affects a pilot's scan or they adapt to it.
The other thing is that when aircraft are on a collision course at steady speeds they appear stationary to each other. So the lights of a jet at low altitude would probably appear to be stationary ground lights.
-
A helicopter moves forward with its nose down - beats me if that affects a pilot's scan or they adapt to it.
The other thing is that when aircraft are on a collision course at steady speeds they appear stationary to each other. So the lights of a jet at low altitude would probably appear to be stationary ground lights.
In the video I posted, at 10:40 the jet is barely visible but stationary against background lights on the horizon. Even if they had clear line of sight and no NVGs it’s difficult at best to see that it’s a jet moving toward you, and if you’re focused on some other airplane that you think was the traffic, no wonder they didn’t see it. It only begins to be distinguishable as a plane coming toward you around 10:45. The collision occurs at 10:50. That’s 5 seconds to react. They had no chance.
That’s just an animation but it gives you an idea of the situation.
-
otoh - since we pilots know that objects that appear stationary in our windows are on a collosion course, don't we pay more attention to "stationary" lights?
I realize it's a LOT harder to pick them out, put those are the ones that are a danger.
-
otoh - since we pilots know that objects that appear stationary in our windows are on a collosion course, don't we pay more attention to "stationary" lights?
I realize it's a LOT harder to pick them out, put those are the ones that are a danger.
Yeah in theory we’re supposed to. But we have to make a conscious effort. Out of the hundreds or thousands of hours we have in the air, how many times have we actually seen another aircraft that was on a collision course? Probably not much. So we’re not expecting to find it, and we become complacent.
We’re like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park. Our brains merge anything that’s not moving into the irrelevant background. We have to use discernment to pick out the small variance that means it’s not part of the background but a plane. It requires us to engage more of our active brain. Or I imagine it would. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a plane on a collision course with us. If I have it was very brief before somebody maneuvered or it was going away from us.
-
It wasn’t the helo, it was ATC DEI. Says this guy anyway.
https://x.com/DineshDSouza/status/1891283923499634997
https://conservativebrief.com/air-say-89499/?utm_source=CB&utm_medium=DJD
Current and former air traffic controllers are raising concerns about the Federal Aviation Administration’s hiring practices and “immunity program,” warning that these issues may have contributed to the recent midair collision near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport.
According to former air traffic controllers, the FAA’s emphasis on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) hiring practices that began during the Obama administration led to the employment of less qualified controllers and a staffing shortage, a concern that was first echoed by President Donald Trump during a press conference following the deadly disaster, Just the News reported.
Combined with an “immunity program” that does not hold controllers accountable for mistakes, these factors are believed to have contributed to the January 29 collision between an American Airlines plane and a U.S Army helicopter, which resulted in both aircraft plunging into the Potomac River near the Washington, D.C., area airport, killing all 67 people aboard.
The FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) are investigating the incident.
A 2023 report warned the FAA that air traffic controllers were increasingly making last-minute flight adjustments due to traffic and staffing shortages, raising safety concerns. The report highlighted quality-control issues and staffing deficits in America’s air traffic control system, which jeopardize safety, the outlet reported.
The November 2023 report also emphasized that personnel shortages were forcing controllers to work extended hours and make abrupt, last-minute changes to flight plans, thereby increasing risks.
Regulators acknowledged that in 2023, there were 19 serious near-misses at U.S. airports that could have been catastrophic, marking one of the highest totals in many years.
Some former air traffic controllers have cited changes in the FAA’s hiring practices during the Obama administration as a factor contributing to the current situation in air traffic control, which has led to an ongoing class action lawsuit.
In December 2013, thousands of students who had participated in the FAA’s Collegiate Training Initiative (CTI)—a program designed to prepare individuals to become Air Traffic Control Specialists—were notified that their previous scores on the AT-SAT, a cognitive and skills-based test, would no longer be considered. Instead, the students were required to pass a biographical survey before retaking the cognitive portion of the test, Just the News reported.
The program graduates were unaware that only 14% of them would successfully complete the new biographical questionnaire. This was surprising, considering that half of them had already passed the skills-based test and met all FAA pre-qualification requirements to advance in the process of becoming Air Traffic Control Specialists.
Eventually, one of the CTI graduates, whose career was derailed by the biographical questionnaire, filed a class action lawsuit against the FAA for discrimination.
Michael Pearson, a former FAA air traffic control specialist with over 26 years of experience, is one of the lawyers involved in the lawsuit against the FAA, which alleges racial discrimination in the agency’s hiring practices.
Pearson told Just the News on Tuesday that the ATC at Reagan International failed to follow proper procedures, which he believes contributed to the crash. He explained that there was a conflict alert on the radar, giving the air traffic controller “27 seconds to do something.”
“When a [conflict alert] goes off, you take immediate action,” he said.
While the media largely seems to blame the crew of the Army helicopter for the crash, Pearson believes that the air traffic controller (ATC) is primarily at fault. Pearson advised that the controller “didn’t tell the jet that the helicopter was in sight,” despite being “required to, and didn’t give safety advisories” when the conflict alert sounded.
Regarding hiring practices at the FAA, Pearson said that the agency “stopped hiring” in order “to figure out how to eliminate the CTI program” because FAA leaders believed there were “too many white people.” Although the CTI program wasn’t eliminated, the FAA ceased using it for hiring purposes, Pearson said.
Another issue is the Air Traffic Safety Action Program (ATSAP), which the National Air Traffic Controllers Association says “helps resolve safety issues that otherwise might not have been identified or resolved.”
-
I had a female who was previously rated at another Air Force base when I was at Eglin AFB, busy tower with a lot of fighters,airlines, cargo etc. trained her for 9 months and she still couldn’t separate/sequence 2-3 planes. Recommended her training be terminated and find another career.
Got called in to the ATC Officer and he said he’d throw out all my evils of her, at least an inch thick folder containing single sheet evals, so a lot. I asked him if he even read them and he said not deeply. Suggested he do so (crusty old master sergeant lol). Finally she was terminated. Had males too that had difficulties but she was the worse.
So happens in the military too, at least Air Force.
-
I had a female who was previously rated at another Air Force base when I was at Eglin AFB, busy tower with a lot of fighters,airlines, cargo etc. trained her for 9 months and she still couldn’t separate/sequence 2-3 planes. Recommended her training be terminated and find another career.
Got called in to the ATC Officer and he said he’d throw out all my evils of her, at least an inch thick folder containing single sheet evals, so a lot. I asked him if he even read them and he said not deeply. Suggested he do so (crusty old master sergeant lol). Finally she was terminated. Had males too that had difficulties but she was the worse.
So happens in the military too, at least Air Force.
And in private utilities. Hubby said it took 6 months and lots of red tape to fire a mechanic who kept showing up late or not at all and just wasn’t doing the job.