PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: acrogimp on February 02, 2016, 12:05:51 PM
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Surprised this hasn't popped up here yet but EAA has changed the Young Eagles program basically requiring all volunteers to submit to a background check to prove we aren't child molesters and to undergo training reminding us not to molest children while flying them around for 15 minutes. There has been an interesting discussion going on at the EAA Forums (you can find it if you want).
I posted this after receiving an e-mail from EAA Chairman Jack Pelton where he basically says, we heard you but don't really care.
Seems like more and more of what used to define the greatness of this country is begin eroded.
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Just read Jack's letter and I am done with EAA.
Totally fails to acknowledge any actual comprehension of or sympathy for the real and substantial issues many expressed and is still basically just saying 'our way or the highway' - well, highway it is.
Life is too short, time is too precious, money is too hard earned, and my reputation and character are too long established to put up with this - EAA did not make my aviation life, I did. It is my time, my money, my airplane, my skill, and my commitment - I am a volunteer, not an employee and I will not be treated in this way.
My commitment to EAA has survived a lot including the P-51 scandal, the nepotism, the whole EAA is Airventure development, and the recent AOPA-esque evolution - I have been in EAA since 1988, have served on Chapter BOD's, have volunteered at airshows and the YE program (ground and pilot), but this is the straw that breaks this camel's back.
Part of what has always been so great about EAA is that it represented the best of us, freedom, creativity, trust and camaraderie - the sharing of the last great adventure left to us - it represented a simpler, better and more innocent time.
This program has shattered that and shown it to be a lie, an illusion and rather than make substantive changes to address the concerns shared, EAA has instead sided with all that is wrong with our current world, and worse it has shown that far more of our fellow EAA'ers are equally willing to toss those of us who won't comply under the bus than I would have ever expected and I find that terribly disheartening. I don't think Brown Shirt is too strong a term to describe some of the cheerleading for this overreach demonstrated in this thread.
I am deeply saddened, outraged and discouraged and see no other path forward than to depart this organization that has been such a positive part of my life for almost 30 years.
When we are left with only two choices, comply or leave, voting with our feet is all we can do on principle. I will also have to leave IAC since EAA owns it as well, I simply cannot remain a part of any organization that treats its own members this way.
John Knolla
EAA Member 1988-2016
Chapters 88 and 14 (as member/BOD/volunteer), others when travelling/consulting
IAC since 2012
AOPA
Red Star Pilots Association
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Thin end of the totalitarian wedge. Sorry to read of those other concerns as well. Will be interested to talk this over with my husband, who is prez of the local chapter.
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Want to do volunteer work for an organization that deals with kids, you'll end up getting a background check. Lots of people spun up about this and quite shit storm over it.
They did a poor job of rolling it out and I believe I know why. That is sad as it had as much to do with the crap they are catching. At the current moment 18 of my members have completed the training and gotten the certificate. Our Young Eagle program will continue on strong.
Blame the lawyers and the insurance companies, but not the EAA.
Dropping out means hurting the kids that benefit from this program.
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Want to do volunteer work for an organization that deals with kids, you'll end up getting a background check. Lots of people spun up about this and quite shit storm over it.
They did a poor job of rolling it out and I believe I know why. That is sad as it had as much to do with the crap they are catching. At the current moment 18 of my members have completed the training and gotten the certificate. Our Young Eagle program will continue on strong.
Blame the lawyers and the insurance companies, but not the EAA.
Dropping out means hurting the kids that benefit from this program.
I haven't heard of this before Gimp's post, but my take on it was the insurance company and lawyers as well.
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The president of a local EAA chapter resigned his position and membership over this.
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I haven't heard of this before Gimp's post, but my take on it was the insurance company and lawyers as well.
Ditto. Probably forced their hand. Though I have no info other than what I read here just now.
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More than 20 years, nearly 2 million kids flown, and not one single example of this ever actually happening, or almost happening.
A policy that was even remotely appropriate to the actual exposure (strapping in, in flight and getting out) would be one thing, but the policy that was dropped on the membership like a 5 megaton airburst nuke is not that - it is internally inconsistent and it won't actually protect EAA or the volunteer from getting sued if anything ever did actually happen or was simply alleged (and is itself only designed to protect EAA).
It's the worst kind of reactionary rule making and has created an administrative burden that is unworkable, with policy requirements that themselves are insulting.
I'll continue to fly kids and adults, just do it on my terms.
'Gimp
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More than 20 years, nearly 2 million kids flown, and not one single example of this ever actually happening, or almost happening.
A policy that was even remotely appropriate to the actual exposure (strapping in, in flight and getting out) would be one thing, but the policy that was dropped on the membership like a 5 megaton airburst nuke is not that - it is internally inconsistent and it won't actually protect EAA or the volunteer from getting sued if anything ever did actually happen or was simply alleged (and is itself only designed to protect EAA).
It's the worst kind of reactionary rule making and has created an administrative burden that is unworkable, with policy requirements that themselves are insulting.
I'll continue to fly kids and adults, just do it on my terms.
'Gimp
Please explain what you feel is unworkable?
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Please explain what you feel is unworkable?
Training, records of training and permission slips for any under 18 participant, 2 deep leadership - it places a huge burden on any chapter trying to have an event - And that is all before addressing the insult of having to prove I am not a child molesting monster through some ill conceived background check.
My now former chapter flies dozens of kids every month and we struggle to have enough staff on hand as it is - when we have Aviation Explorers or Sea Cadets or Boy Scouts out we might have 4-5 dozen kids in the one event. And our events are extremely well done with flight sims, introduction to basic flight, hangar tours, etc. The policy (which has been quietly revised more than once now) is inconsistent with public statements from EAA HQ - simply put it is a giant clusterfuck - and I am not the only one pulling the plug, there are whole chapters bailing out.
It's like others have said over on the EAA Forums, I am mad as hell and I am not gonna take it any more.
'Gimp
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I don't know what the EAA is requiring, but other organizations do check staff that work with children (e.g., my local gun clubs routinely have CORI checks for people running the junior programs).
Some of the procedures could be intended to protect the volunteers as much as the children.
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I don't know what the EAA is requiring, but other organizations do check staff that work with children (e.g., my local gun clubs routinely have CORI checks for people running the junior programs).
Some of the procedures could be intended to protect the volunteers as much as the children.
Yeah, every organization I've seen that deals with minors has these types of things. Training, background checks, two-deep leadership...these things are nearly universal.
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I don't know what the EAA is requiring, but other organizations do check staff that work with children (e.g., my local gun clubs routinely have CORI checks for people running the junior programs).
Some of the procedures could be intended to protect the volunteers as much as the children.
It does nothing for the volunteers, zero - it is to protect the airshow, err, I mean EAA HQ (although does not yet appear to actually apply to the airshow oddly enough) - nothing more - and we all know it will not prevent a single suit so it really is just more feel good kabuki security theater that does nothing to prevent what it is supposedly about.
'Other folks do it' is not a legitimate justification - there is no similar exposure/risk as compared to camps, overnights and extended 1 on 1 things, this is for airplane rides, at least that was the intention. Unfortunately, as written it also applies to all chapter meetings and all other events where under-18's might be involved which is tough for a group like ours that does an airshow or two a year plus massive events every month, always at least 2 members present, with training and records and permission slips, every time. The manpower and recordkeeping requirements are invasive, excessive and solely for protection of the airshow, err, I mean EAA HQ.
It is a slow motion tragedy unfolding, a solution in search of a non-existent problem that is driving away the very people who make up the EAA, who are the volunteers, who are the pilots, who are the ONLY thing that make Young Eagles or in fact anything else EAA does possible.
'Gimp
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It does nothing for the volunteers, zero - it is to protect the airshow, err, I mean EAA HQ (although does not yet appear to actually apply to the airshow oddly enough) - nothing more - and we all know it will not prevent a single suit so it really is just more feel good kabuki security theater that does nothing to prevent what it is supposedly about.
'Other folks do it' is not a legitimate justification - there is no similar exposure/risk as compared to camps, overnights and extended 1 on 1 things, this is for airplane rides, at least that was the intention. Unfortunately, as written it also applies to all chapter meetings and all other events where under-18's might be involved which is tough for a group like ours that does an airshow or two a year plus massive events every month, always at least 2 members present, with training and records and permission slips, every time. The manpower and recordkeeping requirements are invasive, excessive and solely for protection of the airshow, err, I mean EAA HQ.
It is a slow motion tragedy unfolding, a solution in search of a non-existent problem that is driving away the very people who make up the EAA, who are the volunteers, who are the pilots, who are the ONLY thing that make Young Eagles or in fact anything else EAA does possible.
'Gimp
You are quite simply wrong.
The requirement for 2 members present does in fact provides some protection for the volunteer. It's much more difficult for a false charge of abuse/misconduct to be credible when there are always at least 2 members there.
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I don't know what the EAA is requiring, but other organizations do check staff that work with children (e.g., my local gun clubs routinely have CORI checks for people running the junior programs).
Some of the procedures could be intended to protect the volunteers as much as the children.
You're saying it is unlikely that you can have two adults at a YE rally that have taken the training? Everything else at a YE rally is covered by the YE application. Who have you communicated with at the EAA to discuss these complaints?
I currently have about 20 members that have completed the training and forwarded their certificates to me. I guess I just have a larger group of idiots in my chapter or something?
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Bob, I can agree with you that the 2 adult requirement may lower the likelihood of a false accusation but it does not make it go away and again, the sense I have is that none of this was developed to provide any cover for the volunteers but for the airshow, err, I mean EAA HQ. Regardless, any member named in a suit is on their own, program or no program, EAA is accepting no liability to protect the volunteers even after vetted, and they are not accepting any liability with respect to information security on the background check beyond claiming to have insurance (which is for their protection again, not for the person who might be subjected to identity theft, etc.)
Eppy, we have large YE events every month and requiring two adults everywhere would mean fewer pilots actually flying YE's and more adults escorting.
And to be clear, I am not speaking on behalf of EAA 14, I am not on the BOD this year and I am (or was) only a YE volunteer I am not the YE Coordinator who accepted my leaving the program but is working with willing members to keep the program going there.
And to be very clear, I am not calling people who intend to submit to this program idiots (never used those words or even insinuated such) - everyone is free to do as their conscience guides - mine tells me to walk away - and it appears from the EAA Forums that I am not alone in that assessment since entire YE programs and actually entire Chapters may be leaving EAA in protest.
This continuous attack on our freedoms is stemming from the fact that it is just incrementally accepted, the whole frog in a pot where you start lukewarm and by the time it's boiling it is too late - we accept this one thing 'for the children', then we accept something else because 'we need their advocacy in DC', then we accept something because 'they are the only org we have', and so on and so on.
Kind of like what happened at POA - it is a matter of principle for me and I am taking a stand based on my principles and beliefs. Doesn't have to be popular, doesn't have to agreeable to anybody else - it is my decision, my airplane, my time, my money and my reputation - I will invest them where I see fit and EAA is no longer deserving having essentially required me to prove I am NOT a child molester.
EAA exists because of and for us, not the other fucking way around - I'd like to see them put AirVenture on without the volunteers. I'd like to see them peddle influence in DC without being able to say they represent almost 200,000 members. I'd like to see them pay the electric and phone bill without our dues. I'd like to see them keep the museum doors open without volunteers and importantly without donated or borrowed member aircraft.
This particular policy issue is a knee-jerk reaction to something that has never happened and for which the exposure to EAA/YE is unlike most other organizations with youth activities - it was poorly developed, even more poorly communicated, and the roll-out has had all the subtlety of nuke tipped Titan II. When complaints were aired and suggestions made, HQ made minor unannounced adjustments and then sent out a letter saying 'we listened but yeah, our way or the highway'. It seems, contrary to statements made, that membership who is actually doing the YE work were not truly involved in any meaningful way given how many Chapter Presidents and YE Coordinators have stated as much on the EAA Forums.
Submitting to this bullshit is why it keeps happening.
Complying with these assaults on liberty is why we keep losing it - maybe we don't deserve it any more.
'Gimp
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So write this guy and let him know.
Bret Steffen <bsteffen@eaa.org>
We also fly on a monthly basis and generally have around 10 or so volunteers beyond pilots helping out.
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Of course there is an element of "okayness" to this, of course there is.
But this EAA situation is a classic example of what 'Gimp accurately calls a "tragedy unfolding." Glacially, this undercurrent of fear and distrust of one another has morphed into an effective technique now being used politically:
Create a solution to a non-existent problem, impose regulations to enforce "solution," creating more distrust while gaining power.
"Oh well," people say. "I'm busy. I'll just go along." And so we get more "solutions" where there is no problem.
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Of course there is an element of "okayness" to this, of course there is.
But this EAA situation is a classic example of what 'Gimp accurately calls a "tragedy unfolding." Glacially, this undercurrent of fear and distrust of one another has morphed into an effective technique now being used politically:
Create a solution to a non-existent problem, impose regulations to enforce "solution," creating more distrust while gaining power.
"Oh well," people say. "I'm busy. I'll just go along." And so we get more "solutions" where there is no problem.
Very nice summation Becky. Very nice.
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Bob, I can agree with you that the 2 adult requirement may lower the likelihood of a false accusation but it does not make it go away
I didn't say it would make it go away, I said "provides some protection for the volunteer." I was responding to your (emotional?) claim that it did nothing for the volunteers.
False accusations can still happen, but it is much more difficult for those false accusation to gain traction when it's not a he-said/he-said thing with no other witnesses.
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Honestly, I cannot say how I feel about this. I did wonder what would happen if something got said after a solo flight and often wold include a parent in the flight. . I also know the results of an allegation does not matter, the accusation does. That crap doesn't listen to the truth and it will follow you forever. Worse so if you lose.
I did the EAA training, with the background check, and another 10 days for someone to sign me off on that; but I still have a couple of months to decide if I am going to continue doing YE flights. I'll be ready to go when the club decides to do another. What I don't know is whether I will be doing any more.
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Honestly, I cannot say how I feel about this. I did wonder what would happen if something got said after a solo flight and often wold include a parent in the flight. . I also know the results of an allegation does not matter, the accusation does. That crap doesn't listen to the truth and it will follow you forever. Worse so if you lose.
I did the EAA training, with the background check, and another 10 days for someone to sign me off on that; but I still have a couple of months to decide if I am going to continue doing YE flights. I'll be ready to go when the club decides to do another. What I don't know is whether I will be doing any more.
I hope that you will continue to do YE flights. They are important to getting and keeping young folks interested in aviation.
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Thin end of the totalitarian wedge. Sorry to read of those other concerns as well. Will be interested to talk this over with my husband, who is prez of the local chapter.
Good for him. Maybe you can organize the chapter and other regional chapters, have them protest this latest development. Its probably hard enough to find YE volunteers as it is.
You know, the EAA is actually pretty grassroots. I know my two local chapters are filled with great people, some even have deep pockets. They don't need to go all corporate with draconian rules surrounding the young eagles program. If the EAA was run as a more down to earth organization, and some random, unthinkable thing happened on a YE flight I am pretty sure the membership would step up and support the EAA. But not anymore, its tough to feel sympathy for an organization that is run more like a for profit corporation and less like a non-profit charity that benefits aviation.
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Good for him. Maybe you can organize the chapter and other regional chapters, have them protest this latest development. Its probably hard enough to find YE volunteers as it is.
You know, the EAA is actually pretty grassroots. I know my two local chapters are filled with great people, some even have deep pockets. They don't need to go all corporate with draconian rules surrounding the young eagles program. If the EAA was run as a more down to earth organization, and some random, unthinkable thing happened on a YE flight I am pretty sure the membership would step up and support the EAA. But not anymore, its tough to feel sympathy for an organization that is run more like a for profit corporation and less like a non-profit charity that benefits aviation.
Maybe chapters should break away from the EAA and become independent "clubs". When I was based at KFTG I ran into a Young Eagles event taking up Cub Scouts. I wasn't a part of it, but was just going to do some local flying, so I ended up taking up the adults on my own. Nobody had thought that they might want a plane ride.
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Maybe chapters should break away from the EAA and become independent "clubs". When I was based at KFTG I ran into a Young Eagles event taking up Cub Scouts. I wasn't a part of it, but was just going to do some local flying, so I ended up taking up the adults on my own. Nobody had thought that they might want a plane ride.
There are two provisions to fly adults within the EAA framework. A parent can ride along on a Young Eagle flight. The is a waiver they can sign and then go with their young one. The second is to take them individually on an Eagle Flight.
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There are two provisions to fly adults within the EAA framework. A parent can ride along on a Young Eagle flight. The is a waiver they can sign and then go with their young one. The second is to take them individually on an Eagle Flight.
I just took them flying. No provisions, no nothing. The Tiger liked it.
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Haven't decided for sure yet, but I'm leaning towards not doing it.
Without the SSN I'll consider it, with it no way.
I've been back ground checked to death, and frankly I'm not sure it's worth the effort to give away my time and money.
-Dan
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I'm intrigued by the comments of folks giving away their time and money. For me it is a chance to get some of the young folks hooked on aviation and get them into our youth programs and keep them going. We give training scholarships once a student reaches solo and in our build program we give credit for hours worked and pay for their plane rental for training. We also earn Young Eagle credits which ehlps us send kids to Air Academy camps in Oshkosh. The Young Eagles also get access to the Sporty's Ground School which saves them some money. We also run a free ground school for our youth.
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I just took them flying. No provisions, no nothing. The Tiger liked it.
(http://i.imgur.com/7YYuD8n.png?1)
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(http://i.imgur.com/7YYuD8n.png?1)
More like this. Yeah, I have a P-40.
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/paulyb102/American%20Air%20Force%20Colour%20WW2/abdsized.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/paulyb102/media/American%20Air%20Force%20Colour%20WW2/abdsized.jpg.html)
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Nah, Tony the Tiger. Sheesh!
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Nah, Tony the Tiger. Sheesh!
LOL. I meant my AA5B Grumman Tiger. I wish I had a P-40. :-[
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This whole debate is utterly laughable. Sorry, parents will entrust the very lives of their children to complete strangers but they're worried about molestation? Moreover, how am I supposed to molest anyone with my hands full of airplane?
I am done with Young Eagles. Moreover, only an idiot would claim that the Young Eagles program is stemming the tide of the declining pilot population without some sort of metric to show that the Young Eagles program is indeed stemming said tide, and I have yet to see any kind of metric. Moreover, the lack of said metric is telling, the YE program has been running long enough and has flow enough youngsters that quantitative assessment is quite possible. If such was done and the results positive I'm certain the EAA would very loudly and very publicly declare victory.
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This whole debate is utterly laughable. Sorry, parents will entrust the very lives of their children to complete strangers but they're worried about molestation? Moreover, how am I supposed to molest anyone with my hands full of airplane?
I am done with Young Eagles. Moreover, only an idiot would claim that the Young Eagles program is stemming the tide of the declining pilot population without some sort of metric to show that the Young Eagles program is indeed stemming said tide, and I have yet to see any kind of metric. Moreover, the lack of said metric is telling, the YE program has been running long enough and has flow enough youngsters that quantitative assessment is quite possible. If such was done and the results positive I'm certain the EAA would very loudly and very publicly declare victory.
Personally, I thin it is up to the Chapter to get folks to go further. The EAA has Sporty's backing the ground school for those 14 and older. If a chapter just flies the kids and that's it, we won't groom any new pilots. I've got half a dozen in ground school right now and 6-10 working on our Ultra-Lite Pietenpol every Saturday. It takes a bit of work to get there.
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I can find people to give rides to any weekend at the airport. Why do I need to go through the hassle of doing it through the EAA. I will stay a member, but I am not flying YE.