Post by: nddons on October 09, 2018, 03:45:28 PM
However, the best deal in the world to get into a Warbird is the CAF. I already fly a CAF Fairchild PT-26, and am building my hours to get into our SNJ next spring/summer. The cost of getting into the SNJ is a ridiculously low $3,500 sponsor fee, plus an hourly rate and share of fixed costs split among about 5 active pilots. It would be foolish to buy a $150,000 T-6 and $15,000 in fixed annual costs when I have access to the CAF.
However, I think I’ve found a potential solution in a Navion, preferably one painted in military livery and with a larger engine, I.e. 260 or 300 hp Continental. It would be a stout go-somewhere plane, but also a fun aircraft to fly for $100 hamburgers.
They were built by North American (maker of the T-6, B-25, P-51) after the war and before North American began production of the F-86 Sabre, and then were subsequently licensed and built by Ryan. Great lineage.
I’m going to get a flight in one this month from someone in our wing who just got one, but does anyone here at PS have any experience or knowledge of owning and operating a Navion?
Pros and cons are welcome!
Post by: Little Joe on October 09, 2018, 03:57:59 PM
Post by: invflatspin on October 09, 2018, 04:23:20 PM
There are many, many, many type specific things to look for in a Navion, far more than I could cover here. You'll need the expertise of a Navion specialist to buy the right one. The ones that have been converted from E series engines to the 260-300HP models are getting rather pricey lately. Expect to spend quite a bit for a good 260HP Navion with modest radios.
A few things to look for but not exhaustive by any means. AD on fuel selector, AD on tail, the 'Texas Patch', external baggage door, gear doors(not really full enclosed), wing root fairings, rear step, one piece windscreen, once piece side windows, sliding canopy sticking, shoulder harness kit(hard to fit $$$), toe brakes, tip/fuselage fuel tanks, lots of panel upgrades.
They are big, comfy solid planes. They don't handle well when slow, even though they have lots of dihedral. I would spend more for a fully sorted plane, unless you have an A&P with Navion experience that is willing to do the custom work you like.
Post by: Anthony on October 09, 2018, 04:39:25 PM
Wouldn't buying into the SNJ give you enough plane, or is this in addition to that. I'd take a T-6/SNJ any day, of course its a two place plane, however.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on October 09, 2018, 05:17:06 PM
The cost of getting into the SNJ is a ridiculously low $3,500 sponsor fee, plus an hourly rate and share of fixed costs split among about 5 active pilots. It would be foolish to buy a $150,000 T-6 and $15,000 in fixed annual costs when I have access to the CAF.
I'm soooo glad I only took one accounting class. ;)
Post by: invflatspin on October 09, 2018, 05:48:07 PM
The Navion came with an E series engine of either 185/205/225HP. The 225 engine is a fair runner, but the parts situation and service on them is getting a bit tough. The IO-470, IO-520 is the best of all worlds. I wouldn't bother with the 550 at the cost involved.
One of the semi-hassles on the Navion is fairly low gear speeds. Also, the gear doesn't like high air-loads so slowing the plane to pattern speed before dropping the gear, and raising the gear right after take off while still moderately slow is the recommendation. I got used to it because the guy who gave me my Navion transition training said that the gear was never intended for descent control, but meant to hold the airplane up when on the ground. Which made perfect sense.
Post by: nddons on October 09, 2018, 08:07:22 PM
Sent from my iPad . Squirrel!!
Post by: nddons on October 09, 2018, 08:21:12 PM
Never flew one, nor owned one. Somewhere in the recesses of my mind I think I knew someone that had one many years ago. It is built like a brick shipyard. Very solid, and well made. IIRC they are a bit slow for the HP, but don't quote me on that. Not saying they are a slow plane, but maybe not as fast as some others with similar horsepower. Lots of variants, and nuances, so as others have said a Navion expert would help.Oh absolutely, a T-6 will give me everything I need. However, at 30 gal/hr, the 600 hp Pratt & Whitney R-1340 Wasp is a thirsty engine. Everyone that I know has another plane to fly. My mentor owns a Harvard, but also a deHavilland Chipmunk. My AME owns a South African T-6, used to own a Stearman, but now owns a Thorpe and just purchased a Rose Parakeet. (I’m not kidding.). A woman on the field own T-6, and also owns a Stearman and a Cessna 140. She flies a 747 for work.
Wouldn't buying into the SNJ give you enough plane, or is this in addition to that. I'd take a T-6/SNJ any day, of course its a two place plane, however.
So a Navion would be my “other plane”.
Sent from my iPad . Squirrel!!
Post by: invflatspin on October 09, 2018, 08:21:35 PM
I'd like call them a STOL plane but only half of that is true. They will land very short due to high drag profile, and dihedral in the wing. The trick to getting down short is to raise flaps at about 5 feet off, and haul back on the yoke. It'll dump you on the pavement, and then you can slam on the brake and stop in a few hundred feet with disk brakes(hard on the gear of course). However, they are not really STO, again due to the drag and dihedral. Honest planes meant to be thrashed around by a sergeant hauling a Gen or Col in the back seat. There's acres of room in back seat just for that reason.
I may get another one because I like how robust they feel. Not really crisp handling, or sporty, but solid. Don't get it too slow on downwind, remember plenty of drag.
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on October 09, 2018, 09:17:00 PM
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/25893903/north-american-t28c
Post by: Little Joe on October 10, 2018, 03:53:40 AM
Post by: nddons on October 10, 2018, 05:03:46 AM
This is what you need:Ha. If a T-6 has 1,000 parts, a T-28 has 10,000 parts. A little too rich for my blood. We have one on our field, along with four T-6, a P-51, an F-86 Sabre, a T-33, a T-37 Tweet, three T-34, three Stearman, an L-4, an L-39, a PT-26, and a couple more that I’m missing. It’s quiet the Warbird airport.
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/25893903/north-american-t28c
Post by: nddons on October 10, 2018, 05:06:49 AM
Just an ignorant question, but are there any legal restrictions regarding having military insignia on a civilian airplane? I see that a lot and have wondered about it.I doubt it given the number of RV’s with invasion stripes and stars and bars.
But the Navion was a Warbird before it went to the civilian market. It was a Liaison Aircraft and actually served as a FAC in Korea.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/ab6262d7460bafd4c8b8cd6f3eb679d8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181010/78732a58440cd1e683b66d34bcfc536c.jpg)
Post by: Anthony on October 10, 2018, 06:23:48 AM
http://www.fwp149d.com/FwP-149D/nonavion/nonavion.htm
Post by: nddons on October 10, 2018, 08:45:47 AM
Then there's the Focke Wulf 149D. Hmmmmmmmm…….Yep, I know someone in Charlotte who owns one.
http://www.fwp149d.com/FwP-149D/nonavion/nonavion.htm
There’s one on the market, and I like it. However, I’m not sure my dad, who landed on D+1 and was caught outside of St. Vith during the Battle of the Bulge, would be able to Rest In Peace if I flew a German Aircraft with the Iron Cross. (This one doesn’t have that, but another one on the market does.)
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/10004/piston-military-aircraft/manufacturer/focke-wulf
Post by: Anthony on October 10, 2018, 09:24:27 AM
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on October 10, 2018, 09:33:58 AM
My Dad was a veteran of WWII, but not a combat veteran. However, the war has been over for enough years that I'd have no problem flying a German plane marked in its standard livery.
Consider it a "scalp" and all should be good with the Greatest Generation survivors.
Post by: Anthony on October 10, 2018, 09:47:08 AM
Consider it a "scalp" and all should be good with the Greatest Generation survivors.
That's one way to look at it. When I was still living at home in my teens, my Dad turned up his nose when I brought home a BMW as my first car. Back then, BMW's weren't the luxury brand they are now, virtually unkown, and very rare in the U.S. He initially didn't like it because it was German. Not too much time went by when he started asking ME for the keys so he could drive it. :)
Post by: Little Joe on October 10, 2018, 03:42:40 PM
Yep, I know someone in Charlotte who owns one.Sure he would! He would be proud that you captured an enemy aircraft.
There’s one on the market, and I like it. However, I’m not sure my dad, who landed on D+1 and was caught outside of St. Vith during the Battle of the Bulge, would be able to Rest In Peace if I flew a German Aircraft with the Iron Cross. (This one doesn’t have that, but another one on the market does.)
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/10004/piston-military-aircraft/manufacturer/focke-wulf
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on October 10, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
Post by: nddons on October 10, 2018, 04:51:30 PM
Sure he would! He would be proud that you captured an enemy aircraft.Excellent point. He was a ground pounder but was attached to the 368th Fighter Group. The Panzer Dusters. They flew P-47s and his group captured land and established the first Allied forward airbase in Cardonville, France. As the front moved forward, so did they.
http://368thfightergroup.com/
Post by: nddons on October 10, 2018, 04:52:24 PM
Doesn't “flying Ron” on PoA own one?I haven’t been on POA or APPA forums for that matter in a long time, but I thought he had a Grumman Tiger.
Post by: acrogimp on October 11, 2018, 08:12:48 AM
'Gimp
Post by: Anthony on October 11, 2018, 08:59:31 AM
I haven’t been on POA or APPA forums for that matter in a long time, but I thought he had a Grumman Tiger.
I haven't been on their in a very long time either, but if memory serves I believe you are correct.
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on October 11, 2018, 11:06:58 AM
I haven't been on their in a very long time either, but if memory serves I believe you are correct.
[/quote
Y'all are talking about CapnRon the Air Force guy that rode in the back seat but told everyone he was an AF pilot. He does the IR instruction around the country. I'm talking about FlyingRon that lives in an ari park in NC.]
Post by: nddons on October 11, 2018, 11:53:20 AM
I haven't been on their in a very long time either, but if memory serves I believe you are correct.Ah you’re right. And pretty funny.
[/quote
Y'all are talking about CapnRon the Air Force guy that rode in the back seat but told everyone he was an AF pilot. He does the IR instruction around the country. I'm talking about FlyingRon that lives in an ari park in NC.]
Post by: Noah W on October 14, 2018, 02:18:52 PM
This is what you need:
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/25893903/north-american-t28c
Take a good looks at the pics and compare some of the ones of the full panel. Looks to me like there are two different panels. Then again my eyes ain't what they used to be. But WTHDIK
Noah W
Post by: nddons on October 14, 2018, 04:39:08 PM
Possibly front and rear panels? They are rarely identical in any Warbird.
Take a good looks at the pics and compare some of the ones of the full panel. Looks to me like there are two different panels. Then again my eyes ain't what they used to be. But WTHDIK
Noah W
Post by: Noah W on October 14, 2018, 04:52:37 PM
Noah W aka DumbAss
Post by: nddons on October 14, 2018, 05:53:51 PM
Duh! Noah W aka DumbAss, wern't eben thankin' too seet aerplain.
Noah W aka DumbAss
. It’s 5:00 somewhere.
Post by: Username on November 14, 2018, 09:13:21 AM
I'm looking to buy a Navion in a few months and I've noticed that a number of them have been painted in military markings. I've never served in the military, and the particular aircraft has never been in the military. I can see painting an aircraft to match my service, or having an actual warbird painted in its service colors. But I see Navions in all sorts of military markings. I can get past an ugly paintjob, but fake military just doesn't feel right to me.
Post by: Anthony on November 14, 2018, 09:22:19 AM
Post by: Becky (My pronouns are Assigned/By/God) on November 14, 2018, 09:28:09 AM
How do y'all feel about Navions tarted up as faux warbirds?Looks like you already know how you feel! Most probably your feelings would only intensify over time.
I can get past an ugly paintjob, but fake military just doesn't feel right to me.
Post by: Username on November 14, 2018, 09:34:31 AM
Post by: Anthony on November 14, 2018, 09:37:06 AM
In the 1970's Grumman did a line of AA1's in D-Day markings and camo paint. I always thought they were cool.
Post by: invflatspin on November 14, 2018, 09:46:04 AM
How do y'all feel about Navions tarted up as faux warbirds?
I'm looking to buy a Navion in a few months and I've noticed that a number of them have been painted in military markings. I've never served in the military, and the particular aircraft has never been in the military. I can see painting an aircraft to match my service, or having an actual warbird painted in its service colors. But I see Navions in all sorts of military markings. I can get past an ugly paintjob, but fake military just doesn't feel right to me.
Get what you want. If it has military paint scheme, it's part of the plane. Don't let the right plane get away just because you are concerned about the paint job. If anyone gives you flack, just tell them you bought it that way, and are collecting donations for a repaint. Guessing they will walk away.
Post by: Username on November 14, 2018, 09:54:50 AM
Post by: invflatspin on November 14, 2018, 10:09:24 AM
Suggest Hawaiian shirt, cargo shorts, sandals and baseball cap.
Post by: Username on November 14, 2018, 10:21:10 AM
Post by: nddons on November 14, 2018, 11:12:16 AM
How do y'all feel about Navions tarted up as faux warbirds?I’m OK with that, because some Navions were Warbirds. They were initially built like brick shit houses by North American Aviation, manufacturer of the T-6, P-51, and the friggin’ Apollo Command/Service Module.
I'm looking to buy a Navion in a few months and I've noticed that a number of them have been painted in military markings. I've never served in the military, and the particular aircraft has never been in the military. I can see painting an aircraft to match my service, or having an actual warbird painted in its service colors. But I see Navions in all sorts of military markings. I can get past an ugly paintjob, but fake military just doesn't feel right to me.
They were built by NAA for about 18 months to keep employees busy until they could tool up to build the F-86 Sabre. At that point they sold the tooling and IP to Ryan. Pretty cool lineage.
I do think having them painted in Military livery honors their service, even if that aircraft didn’t serve.
Plus, a Navion painted in military livery will get you into the Warbirds area at OSH. An RV with invasion stripes? Uh, nope. Every year there seems to be one or two that try to get in, but they’re told to go to homebuilt parking.
Frankly I’m way more offended by T-6, Mustangs or Corsairs painted up like race cars for Reno then I am with a Navion painted in olive drab. The former is a sin.
Post by: nddons on November 14, 2018, 11:21:22 AM
When flying, might want to avoid any kind of faux uniform, epaulets, leather helmet, goggles, bomber jacket, etc. ;)I will say that I at first cringed at the CAF rule that all flight crew needs to wear a Nomex Flight suit. However, having about 100 hours in a 75-year old Warbird, I now understand the need for protection.
Suggest Hawaiian shirt, cargo shorts, sandals and baseball cap.
Reference the C-47 crash in Texas last July. I understand only two got away unhurt. The rest received burns.
Post by: Username on November 14, 2018, 11:49:46 AM
I’m OK with that, because some Navions were Warbirds.That's kind of what I was getting at. A Navion, even if it didn't serve, in an original service paint job does pay homage to its role in the service. That's cool. But one painted Navy blue with stars and bars and a big MARINES on the side was never done. That's where it feels a bit off. And someone dressing a P51 like Nascar should be flogged.
...
I do think having them painted in Military livery honors their service, even if that aircraft didn’t serve.
...
Frankly I’m way more offended by T-6, Mustangs or Corsairs painted up like race cars for Reno then I am with a Navion painted in olive drab. The former is a sin.
Post by: Little Joe on November 14, 2018, 01:14:23 PM
I'd hate to pass on an otherwise perfect aircraft because of paint. There is a coolness factor, but I wanted to see if anyone sees it as encroaching on "stolen valor," as representing something it or I am not. A T6 or Stearman, yeah! An RV, sure. A Navion? Dunno.I understand where you are coming from. Hence my earlier question regarding the legality of such. Something about it feels wrong unless, as you said, you served in that branch, or the airplane itself did.
But I do think they look cool as hell and they remind me of when I was a little kid and we played soldier.
Post by: nddons on November 14, 2018, 02:10:34 PM
That's kind of what I was getting at. A Navion, even if it didn't serve, in an original service paint job does pay homage to its role in the service. That's cool. But one painted Navy blue with stars and bars and a big MARINES on the side was never done. That's where it feels a bit off. And someone dressing a P51 like Nascar should be flogged.I’m familiar with that one. It’s been on the market for a while.