PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Lucifer on February 13, 2019, 06:10:24 AM
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This is something to keep an eye on that's just below the surface. Cheap easy loans for people to buy autos that they really can't afford have been fueling this.
More than 7 million Americans are at least 90 days behind on their auto loans, according to the New York Fed.
That's higher than the peak in 2010 as the country was still reeling from the devastating financial crisis.
The "number of distressed borrowers suggests that not all Americans have benefited from the strong labor market and warrants continued monitoring and analysis of this sector," Fed economists say.
The third sentence is misleading. Cheap easy money is behind this.
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Yup. Bad loans made to poor people monetized and tuned into securities. Sound familiar?
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Trump sure gets around. Now he’s making people miss their car payments. Why, Kamala would make that payment FOR you!
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Trump sure gets around. Now he’s making people miss their car payments. Why, Kamala would make that payment FOR you!
Cars are bad anyway, and shouldn't be allowed! Under the GND, that will be taken care of.
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They didn’t learn from the mortgage loan fiasco. Giving loans to people who cannot afford them is cruel to them, it’s not doing them a favor. It leads to bankruptcy and ruined credit. They never learn to live within their means. There is a disturbing trend among the young to expect middle class lifestyle before they’ve earned it. New cars, big houses, before they have built a solid financial foundation.
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Is it just me? Am I just cheap, or old? I can not believe what people pay for cars today. Many of my neighbors, friends, acquaintances, etc easily have well over $100K, more like $150K sitting in their driveway with two cars. And they let them sit outside, with their garages filled with junk. WTF?
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This may sound harsh, but if one cannot pay cash for the car, one cannot afford the car.
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Is it just me? Am I just cheap, or old? I can not believe what people pay for cars today. Many of my neighbors, friends, acquaintances, etc easily have well over $100K, more like $150K sitting in their driveway with two cars. And they let them sit outside, with their garages filled with junk. WTF?
Plenty of neighbors have very expensive cars. We just bought a new car, a Honda Civic. One neighbor exclaimed "A Civic, huh?" with disdain in her voice. Yup, a Civic. I paid cash, and still have plenty in my pocket. It's the Si sport model, it's so much fun to drive we fight over who gets to drive it, and it gets 33mpg in our urban environment.
It's just a car...
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Plenty of neighbors have very expensive cars. We just bought a new car, a Honda Civic. One neighbor exclaimed "A Civic, huh?" with disdain in her voice. Yup, a Civic. I paid cash, and still have plenty in my pocket. It's the Si sport model, it's so much fun to drive we fight over who gets to drive it, and it gets 33mpg in our urban environment.
It's just a car...
My next car will be a used Miata. I don't care if it is a "chick" car. I want one, and won't need a loan to buy it. The Civic Si's are the BOMB.
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They didn’t learn from the mortgage loan fiasco. Giving loans to people who cannot afford them is cruel to them, it’s not doing them a favor. It leads to bankruptcy and ruined credit. They never learn to live within their means. There is a disturbing trend among the young to expect middle class lifestyle before they’ve earned it. New cars, big houses, before they have built a solid financial foundation.
One of the primary driving forces for cheap easy money are the Democrats.
Also in the government wanting to economic engineer as well as the the car manufacturers lobby, the cheap easy money promotes selling more cars. Loans are not uncommon in the 72 month range, which if one does the math, is down right stupid.
I pay cash for cars and drive used ones. Buying anything new that depreciates as bad as an auto is simply tossing good money away.
Also, this is right below the surface, just as the cheap easy mortgages. This will rear its ugly head again soon as more people start defaulting.
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This may sound harsh, but if one cannot pay cash for the car, one cannot afford the car.
We have never bought a new car, never, and never had a loan for a car. That's insane, why would anyone go into debt for a car? It's transportation. Not a status symbol. Buy something reliable, do the maintenance and repair yourself and drive it into the ground. Cheapest way to have cars.
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We have never bought a new car, never, and never had a loan for a car. That's insane, why would anyone go into debt for a car? It's transportation. Not a status symbol. Buy something reliable, do the maintenance and repair yourself and drive it into the ground. Cheapest way to have cars.
I do like new, but I still pay cash, and do all of the MX and repairs myself. I'm a firm believer that the more you can keep your car away from "professional" mechanics, the better off you'll be. We typically run them 15 years or so before getting new ones.
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My next car will be a used Miata. I don't care if it is a "chick" car. I want one, and won't need a loan to buy it. The Civic Si's are the BOMB.
Are you short, or just a sadist? I sat in a Miata once. Convertible. Could literally not close the door because my leg could not get under the steering wheel. I’m 6’2”. Plus, my eye line of sight was looking over the windshield.
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Are you short, or just a sadist? I sat in a Miata once. Convertible. Could literally not close the door because my leg could not get under the steering wheel. I’m 6’2”. Plus, my eye line of sight was looking over the windshield.
We looked at Miatas before buying the Si, no bueno. I'm 6'2", and I just didn't fit.
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We have never bought a new car, never, and never had a loan for a car. That's insane, why would anyone go into debt for a car? It's transportation. Not a status symbol. Buy something reliable, do the maintenance and repair yourself and drive it into the ground. Cheapest way to have cars.
Autos are marketed as status symbols, and a social conscience consumer plays right into it.
2 auto makes I would never consider owning are Mercedes and BMW. Way over priced for what they are, and if you ever need maintenance outside of warranty, it’s great taking. But consumers want those badges in their driveway.
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Are you short, or just a sadist? I sat in a Miata once. Convertible. Could literally not close the door because my leg could not get under the steering wheel. I’m 6’2”. Plus, my eye line of sight was looking over the windshield.
I’m 5’ 11”, and I owned a Miata as a second car for a while. It was fun, sunny day top down driving. Unreal reliability.
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Are you short, or just a sadist? I sat in a Miata once. Convertible. Could literally not close the door because my leg could not get under the steering wheel. I’m 6’2”. Plus, my eye line of sight was looking over the windshield.
I am just over 6 feet tall, and I fit in one ok. Yes, a bit tight, but fine. I am also relatively thin, so that helps. I grew up driving MG's, so...…...
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How does this mesh with rollback of Payday Lending rules?
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My wife got a really nice 2011 BMW 750iL because she wanted comfort and all wheel drive. Used so very affordable. Paid cash, but it turned out to be a real pain. Dealer couldn't accept a check due to check fraud. Couldn't accept a cashier's check due to another kind of fraud. Couldn't accept the green stuff due to drug laws. He said it would be easier to get a loan and pay it off right away. Sheesh. We finally had our friend who's the president of the bank tell them that our money was good.
It's a pain to wait until we have cash to pay for the plane I want, but rules is rules.
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How does this mesh with rollback of Payday Lending rules?
Apparently those rules were developed and proposed but never were adopted under O. The current administration has proposed tabling them. Consumer groups will likely challenge. Seems borrowers are using the loans in ways not intended, most commonly extending the loan past its due date.
I’ve never set foot in one of those places and feel repugnance of them when I drive past them. The whole concept is flawed and exploitative. I might suggest banning them, but there you go ... we’re a free country still.
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I do like new, but I still pay cash, and do all of the MX and repairs myself. I'm a firm believer that the more you can keep your car away from "professional" mechanics, the better off you'll be. We typically run them 15 years or so before getting new ones.
I can respect that. Paying cash and keeping it long enough to get full value is the important part. Agree about mechanics!
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We looked at Miatas before buying the Si, no bueno. I'm 6'2", and I just didn't fit.
My husband had one for a while and he's 6'2". He loved it. Maybe the year models are different, I have no idea, can't recall what year his was, it was oldish.
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How does this mesh with rollback of Payday Lending rules?
Unrelated. A lender, whether it’s a bank or an auto maker, can make loans if they want to. They will get a depreciating asset back if the borrower defaults. I’m not aware of any securitized auto loans in the financial markets so it’s really a borrower/lender risk reward scenario. As long as the government stays the fuck out of it, it should self-correct.
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I have a friend that is 6' 4". He had two Miatas at different times, and couldn't fit in either. Me at just over 6 feet was fine. He then bought a BMW Z3, and couldn't fit in that either. I was fine. He just should have given them all to me! lol!
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Autos are marketed as status symbols, and a social conscience consumer plays right into it.
2 auto makes I would never consider owning are Mercedes and BMW. Way over priced for what they are, and if you ever need maintenance outside of warranty, it’s great taking. But consumers want those badges in their driveway.
That's funny, because most of the cars we've owned have been Mercedes and BMWs, but we bought them waaaaaaay used so they were REAL German made cars, designed by old German engineers who are now retired or dead, not the crap that's coming out now. My husband does all the maintenance and repair. If you can't do your own work on them, no it's not worth it, it's way too hard to find a good shop for those cars. I agree with you about today's Mercedes and BMWs, I would never buy a new one.
My Mercedes is a 1986 and I will drive it until I die. It will outlive me, it's got a 500,000 mile diesel engine with only 250,000 miles on it. No way in hell will I ever drive one of these newfangled nightmares with "lane assist" and automatic this and that and cameras all over it, I don't need my frickin' car to try to outsmart me.
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That's funny, because most of the cars we've owned have been Mercedes and BMWs, but we bought them waaaaaaay used so they were REAL German made cars, designed by old German engineers who are now retired or dead, not the crap that's coming out now. My husband does all the maintenance and repair. If you can't do your own work on them, no it's not worth it, it's way too hard to find a good shop for those cars. I agree with you about today's Mercedes and BMWs, I would never buy a new one.
My Mercedes is a 1986 and I will drive it until I die. It will outlive me, it's got a 500,000 mile diesel engine with only 250,000 miles on it. No way in hell will I ever drive one of these newfangled nightmares with "lane assist" and automatic this and that and cameras all over it, I don't need my frickin' car to try to outsmart me.
Current crop of new car (BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc) buyers probably never even open the hood. And the real shock comes when they take their pride and joy into the dealer for service.
There are people who will trade in their cars before something simple (brake pads, belt exchange, etc) come due. And the dealer finance Dept will be more than happy to roll the existing loan into a new one.
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One thing I really like about our funky little neighborhood is no one really cares at all what you drive. if someone looked disdainfully down their nose at my ride I'd not want them as neighbor. We buy our cars new and drive them for at least a decade. I drove my truck 14 years, the Tercel 14 years, and we've had our Fit for 10. Only decided to get the Fit because of an Obama era tax deal. I've neither the tooling nor the skills to work on them, so to my mechanic they go. I no doubt spend more than some for transportation, but my transportation tends to work when i need it.
Of course I shouldn't have a car for me at all. I walk to work and barely drive the poor thing. None of my friends fit in my little MR2 Spyder. Cool by me.
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None of my friends fit in my little MR2 Spyder. Cool by me.
Nobody wants to fit. Its actually too BIG for you. That's why you put the blocks on the gas, brake, and clutch pedals. You do have a clutch, right? It is the pedal on the left. :)
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Nobody wants to fit. Its actually too BIG for you. That's why you put the blocks on the gas, brake, and clutch pedals. You do have a clutch, right? It is the pedal on the left. :)
My little convertible fits me just fine, though I do have to get the heat fixed. And if you get your Miata I will happily run circles around it. My MR2 has the engine where its supposed to be, in the back. I've not driven a better handling car.
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My little convertible fits me just fine, though I do have to get the heat fixed. And if you get your Miata I will happily run circles around it. My MR2 has the engine where its supposed to be, in the back. I've not driven a better handling car.
Well with the tuner, CAI, exhaust, etc I will install will get me enough HP to make your little MR2 look like, well a Toyota! :) The nice things about Miatas are the tons of aftermarket parts, and support it has.
Actually, I like the MR2 in just about all its iterations. They should release a new one. Have fun with it!
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My little convertible fits me just fine, though I do have to get the heat fixed. And if you get your Miata I will happily run circles around it. My MR2 has the engine where its supposed to be, in the back. I've not driven a better handling car.
I tend to agree on mid engine cars. I owned an Acura NSX for awhile, it was a pure joy to drive.
I had a chance to drive my friends Ferrari F355 Spyder. The most fun you can have with your clothes on.
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I have a friend that is 6' 4". He had two Miatas at different times, and couldn't fit in either. Me at just over 6 feet was fine. He then bought a BMW Z3, and couldn't fit in that either. I was fine. He just should have given them all to me! lol!
Don't take this wrong, but you need smarter friends. Who buys THREE cars that he can't fit in?
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I, too, buy my cars new. I don't like buying other people's problems, so I buy new - but I pay cash, and drive them into the ground. I had my last car, a Saturn, for over 11 years and put well over 200k miles on it before it threw a rod. My current car is a Chevy Sonic, purchased in 2012, now with over 100k miles on it. Not the best vehicle for Vermont back roads in winter, but I avoid deep mud and so far it has served me well. Some would argue that I don't need a car since like Steingar, I walk to work now, but hereabouts you often have to drive 10-20 miles for supplies, so a car is still a necessity. I could save some money if I worked on it myself, but I don't have the equipment or the skills for that, unfortunately.
I would never consider taking out a loan for a car (or a plane). To me it's insanity to borrow to pay for a depreciating asset. And generally speaking, if I can't afford to pay cash for something, I can't afford it. A house would be an exception to that rule, but I even paid cash for my condo in Michigan. And I don't see myself buying a house here anytime soon - WAY too expensive here, and property taxes are also through the roof.
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Don't take this wrong, but you need smarter friends. Who buys THREE cars that he can't fit in?
He just spent a half a Mil on a 2007 Bonanza. He fits in that. :)
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He just spent a half a Mil on a 2007 Bonanza. He fits in that. :)
Ok, that's different. So what's a little stupidity between friends, huh?
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Ok, that's different. So what's a little stupidity between friends, huh?
Believe me, I've had that conversation. Never got a good answer. lol!
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I tend to agree on mid engine cars. I owned an Acura NSX for awhile, it was a pure joy to drive.
I had a chance to drive my friends Ferrari F355 Spyder. The most fun you can have with your clothes on.
My God. I feel like my Undergraduate Pilot Training class is getting fighters, and I got a C-130.
I love my Ford F-150 by the way.
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I would never consider taking out a loan for a car (or a plane). To me it's insanity to borrow to pay for a depreciating asset. And generally speaking, if I can't afford to pay cash for something, I can't afford it. A house would be an exception to that rule, but I even paid cash for my condo in Michigan. And I don't see myself buying a house here anytime soon - WAY too expensive here, and property taxes are also through the roof.
I used to be the same way, and I've never taken out a loan for a car. I take it back, I did once, because I had the money in an investment than paid more than the interest on the loan. But I did borrow some when I bought the Mooney. I knew I could pay it back easily, and I figured, why wait? I wasn't getting any younger, and before I saved up the ca$h I might be hit by flaming space debris. So I borrow and I'm glad. Mooney ownership has been worth it.
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My God. I feel like my Undergraduate Pilot Training class is getting fighters, and I got a C-130.
I love my Ford F-150 by the way.
I tend to drive utility type vehicles. I did have a Ford F250 crew cab diesel for a while, that thing had one of the best rides. Loved it.
Had a Chevy Avalanche, it was a nice ride as well.
My friend was a super car fanatic. Which for me was great, because whatever he bought I would get to drive and give it a try. He is the one that talked me into the Acura NSX. I also had two Nissan 300ZX's, but they didn't compare.
I got to drive his Ferrari F355, Ferrari Maranello (575), Porsche 996 Turbo, Porsche 993 Turbo S, BMW M5, A couple of different Dodge Vipers, a couple of different Corvettes and a Maserati (can't remember the model). He was in the process of buying a Bently sports sedan but unfortunately passed away before that happened.
So through him I got the joy of driving these without the pain of buying/selling them. He was a great friend, I miss him.
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He is the one that talked me into the Acura NSX. I also had two Nissan 300ZX's, but they didn't compare.
I got to drive his Ferrari F355, Ferrari Maranello (575), Porsche 996 Turbo, Porsche 993 Turbo S, BMW M5, A couple of different Dodge Vipers, a couple of different Corvettes and a Maserati (can't remember the model). He was in the process of buying a Bently sports sedan but unfortunately passed away before that happened.
So through him I got the joy of driving these without the pain of buying/selling them. He was a great friend, I miss him.
Which were your favorites?
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Which were your favorites?
The Maranello is a nice driver, yet has really nice speed if you want. And of course that great Ferrari engine sound.
The F355 is just fast. Much better driver than the Porsche's.
The Viper is just brut horsepower, not a great road car, but brutal in tire burning power.
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I need wealthier friends. I don't get to drive any of this shit.
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I've had some nice bikes, and a BMW at one point, but never any exotics, or even a Corvette. I wouldn't mind getting a used Vette, but never saw myself as a Vette kind of guy, hence the Miata desires. I always liked the old British roadsters, and had a few MG's in the 70's and 80's, so for me, the Miata would be kind of like those, only better, and highly tune-able.
I will say this, I bought my ex wife (before she was my ex) a new 2003 Toyota Celica GT-S back then, and that was a BLAST to drive. They used the same Toyota engine in the Lotus Elise. Yeah, it was that good.
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Can't complain about the bike front, I don't think there was anything that could outrun my 954 while I owned it. that bike was wickedly fast. Had I the resources and the desire to buy a supercar, I'd buy a Vette. They'll do everything the more exotic cars will do for a fraction of the price. And they're 'Merican.
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Can't complain about the bike front, I don't think there was anything that could outrun my 954 while I owned it. that bike was wickedly fast. Had I the resources and the desire to buy a supercar, I'd buy a Vette. They'll do everything the more exotic cars will do for a fraction of the price. And they're 'Merican.
Vettes can be fun to drive, and they are a bargain in the upscale sports car world (used). Not a "super car" as they are mass produced.
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I always wanted a Trabant. A "Trabbie".
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I always wanted a Trabant. A "Trabbie".
If you really want style and performance, go Yugo........
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If you really want style and performance, go Yugo........
Wasn't that basically an older FIAT?
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Wasn't that basically an older FIAT?
Yep. Except worse.
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Yep. Except worse.
I didn't think it could get any worse.
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I have a 1.75 rate on the loan for my slightly-used Tacoma. That's $1,200 in interest over a 60 month loan, which I'll pay off early. Nothin' wrong with using other folks' money for pennies on the dollar, especially considering you can retain the liquid cash and make more on it than you'll lose in interest.
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I have a 1.75 rate on the loan for my slightly-used Tacoma. That's $1,200 in interest over a 60 month loan, which I'll pay off early. Nothin' wrong with using other folks' money for pennies on the dollar, especially considering you can retain the liquid cash and make more on it than you'll lose in interest.
There are exceptions to everything. If you get a really good rate or you're in a situation where you need the car immediately and don't have the cash, especially if you expect a good cash flow such as you just got a new job. Or like you said, you can invest the money at a better rate than you're paying on the car. Even then though for me, I'd get a used, not new, car, like you did.
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I have a 1.75 rate on the loan for my slightly-used Tacoma. That's $1,200 in interest over a 60 month loan, which I'll pay off early. Nothin' wrong with using other folks' money for pennies on the dollar, especially considering you can retain the liquid cash and make more on it than you'll lose in interest.
Yep, that's the exception to our "no loans" policy. When other people let us use their money for next to nothing. Those very low interest loans are great for that.
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Yep, that's the exception to our "no loans" policy. When other people let us use their money for next to nothing. Those very low interest loans are great for that.
I frankly don't know how they make money on me over a 60 month term.
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I have a 1.75 rate on the loan for my slightly-used Tacoma. That's $1,200 in interest over a 60 month loan, which I'll pay off early. Nothin' wrong with using other folks' money for pennies on the dollar, especially considering you can retain the liquid cash and make more on it than you'll lose in interest.
I bought my first airplane using a Home Equity Line of Credit. Five years of interest only payments at 1.9% (back in 2009) came to about $96/month. And the the interest was tax deductible, which was a good thing for me because at the time I was in the highest tax bracket. I sold the plane 5 years later for almost the same amount I paid for it, so except for fuel and maintenance I flew for 5 years practically for free.
I paid cash for my next plane (my Bonanza which I still own).
The moral of the story is that credit can be used wisely, or stupidly.
Over the years, I used credit as a tool. Leverage is a powerful thing . But before I retired, I paid off all of my loans, including my house. Now, my biggest expense (outside of 100ll, annuals and hotels) is property tax. Can't seem to get around those things.
As for cars, I always buy new and drive them as long as I can. I paid off my last car loan around 1985. I kept that car for about 7 years after paying off the loan, but I kept putting an amount (almost) equal to my car loan into a savings account. When I finally sold it, my next car was paid for in cash. As have been all of my cars since then. I always buy new because the horrid 1st year depreciation is diluted over the next 10 or 12. And it is really nice to have a nice, brand new car with new technology that nobody else has broken in (or broken down) for you every once in a while.
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I've bought several vehicles on O%, or 1-2% loans just to use their money and make a little on mine.
My nephew and his wife are specialized RN's and make about $200k per year. They have a little over $150,000 in vehicle loans right now. They'll never know what it feels like to have money in teh bank, because they are so busy borrowing and buying things they could wait and save up for without all the interest burden.
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Vettes can be fun to drive, and they are a bargain in the upscale sports car world (used). Not a "super car" as they are mass produced.
Mass produced is true, but the numbers I’ve seen suggest a Vette can keep up with anything from Europe. Good enough for me. I like to drive fast and fun. For me a sports car isn’t a statement, it’s something to have fun driving.
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Mass produced is true, but the numbers I’ve seen suggest a Vette can keep up with anything from Europe. Good enough for me. I like to drive fast and fun. For me a sports car isn’t a statement, it’s something to have fun driving.
True. They do drive and handle well. The latest generation is really impressive.
A used one is a real bargain. The real advantage of a Corvette over a "super car" is maintanability.
The Vette is a GM product, and any Chevy dealer can work on it.
A Ferrari is a whole different situation. Very few dealers, and very few shops can work on these because of the specialized training and tooling. So if your Ferarri breaks down in Podunct OH, you got problems, big problems.
The Acura NSX I had was unique in that while it's considered a true super car, it can be maintained by any Honda/Acura dealer. The NSX is a hand built car with only 30 produced a month, but it's Honda.
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Wasn't that basically an older FIAT?
Actually, a very bad eastern European copy of a very bad Fiat Lol!
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Yep, that's the exception to our "no loans" policy. When other people let us use their money for next to nothing. Those very low interest loans are great for that.
Ditto, the only time I've gotten car loans are when they are 0%. Use your money for 4 years? Yeah, sure.
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Ditto, the only time I've gotten car loans are when they are 0%. Use your money for 4 years? Yeah, sure.
I'm not a fan of financing through the dealer. No such thing as "free" or "zero" in the car buying process, so your "savings" are buried elsewhere in the cost structure.
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I'd bypass the dealer entirely, but they're the only game in town if you want a new car. Nice to have a government sponsored monopoly. That said, I got my last car and my bike from dealers, so I a ma bit of a chump. The said, though purchased used both are fairly unusual, so they weren't easily sourced from private individuals.
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I'm not a fan of financing through the dealer. No such thing as "free" or "zero" in the car buying process, so your "savings" are buried elsewhere in the cost structure.
Because you are so much smarter than everyone else? Often the factory offers these financing deals so that they move cars faster. The Dealer has nothing to do with them, so they do not have to pad the car's pricing to make up for the cost of the loan. I had a major auto manufacturer as a client, and that's what they did. So, while it may not be "free", it may offer a cost advantage on picking that vehicle over another one.
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I'd bypass the dealer entirely, but they're the only game in town if you want a new car. Nice to have a government sponsored monopoly. That said, I got my last car and my bike from dealers, so I a ma bit of a chump. The said, though purchased used both are fairly unusual, so they weren't easily sourced from private individuals.
What monopoly is that?
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I'd bypass the dealer entirely, but they're the only game in town if you want a new car. Nice to have a government sponsored monopoly. That said, I got my last car and my bike from dealers, so I a ma bit of a chump. The said, though purchased used both are fairly unusual, so they weren't easily sourced from private individuals.
If I never stepped foot in a dealer again.......
And you're right, dealerships are basically gov sponsored monopolies.
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If I never stepped foot in a dealer again.......
And you're right, dealerships are basically gov sponsored monopolies.
What is monopolized?
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What is monopolized?
Perhaps monopoly is not quite the word to use. Here's a good article that can explain it better:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a9265/do-we-really-need-car-dealerships-anymore-15748322/
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Perhaps monopoly is not quite the word to use. Here's a good article that can explain it better:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a9265/do-we-really-need-car-dealerships-anymore-15748322/
No time to read an article. Since you and Steingar used the same word I figured you’d be able to explain it and defend it.
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I'm not a fan of financing through the dealer. No such thing as "free" or "zero" in the car buying process, so your "savings" are buried elsewhere in the cost structure.
Most of my recent cars have been Fords, and since my FiL is a Ford retiree, I can buy the cars on the A/X/Z plan. Dealer has to show me the real invoice, on the invoice are three boxes for the A, X, or Z plan, and the dealer has to sell me the car at the price listed in the box. That price normally represents real dealer invoice minus holdback. IOW, real dealer cost. In addition, any incentives available on that car model at the time further reduce the price. When we bought our Fusion, the car listed for $31.5k, but after the Zplan price minus the $2500 cash back that was running, we paid $23.6k. And icing on the cake, Ford was running 0% at the time as well. Yes, please, I'll use your money for free!
We have bought some non-Fords over the years, but it's really hard to go back to haggling when I can buy at real cost + incentives.
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Most of my recent cars have been Fords, and since my FiL is a Ford retiree, I can buy the cars on the A/X/Z plan. Dealer has to show me the real invoice, on the invoice are three boxes for the A, X, or Z plan, and the dealer has to sell me the car at the price listed in the box. That price normally represents real dealer invoice minus holdback. IOW, real dealer cost. In addition, any incentives available on that car model at the time further reduce the price. When we bought our Fusion, the car listed for $31.5k, but after the Zplan price minus the $2500 cash back that was running, we paid $23.6k. And icing on the cake, Ford was running 0% at the time as well. Yes, please, I'll use your money for free!
We have bought some non-Fords over the years, but it's really hard to go back to haggling when I can buy at real cost + incentives.
I used to pull the Edmunds books, figure out dealer cost, and negotiate from dealer cost plus a few bucks.
However I’ve bought my last three Fords through EAA’s program with Ford, where I can get X plan pricing, which I understand is employee pricing. I print out a form, hand it to the salesman, and we’re done.
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Last car I bought from a "dealer".
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Last car I bought from a "dealer".
Nice ride, Huggy Bear.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/1af17f0490c19d58f40cf028248792ee.jpg)
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Because you are so much smarter than everyone else?
No, just smarter than you. ::)
Often the factory offers these financing deals so that they move cars faster. The Dealer has nothing to do with them, so they do not have to pad the car's pricing to make up for the cost of the loan. I had a major auto manufacturer as a client, and that's what they did. So, while it may not be "free", it may offer a cost advantage on picking that vehicle over another one.
I'm not sure what percentage of the total you mean by "often", but I grant that it may be in part a tool to move models off the lot. Buying a car from a dealership is like gambling. The house almost always wins. That's sales experts/organizations vs. average consumers. That's capitalism. Advertising 0% interest is a fantastic marketing tool. It gets people in the door, where they are immediately at a disadvantage because now they're in "your" house. And they have many tools to extract additional dollars from you outside of the financing.
I just prefer to walk in the door knowing exactly the rate I can get and with a draft check ready to go. The one time I made the mistake of allowing the dealership to offer financing at the rate I knew I could get and with the credit union I knew they could offer financing with, they came back with double the rate I could get, with some other financing institution, and had managed three hard credit pulls on my credit.
No thanks.
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Most of my recent cars have been Fords, and since my FiL is a Ford retiree, I can buy the cars on the A/X/Z plan. Dealer has to show me the real invoice, on the invoice are three boxes for the A, X, or Z plan, and the dealer has to sell me the car at the price listed in the box. That price normally represents real dealer invoice minus holdback. IOW, real dealer cost. In addition, any incentives available on that car model at the time further reduce the price. When we bought our Fusion, the car listed for $31.5k, but after the Zplan price minus the $2500 cash back that was running, we paid $23.6k. And icing on the cake, Ford was running 0% at the time as well. Yes, please, I'll use your money for free!
We have bought some non-Fords over the years, but it's really hard to go back to haggling when I can buy at real cost + incentives.
Now I'd do that too if I had your connections. No such luck here.
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No, just smarter than you. ::)
Well that very well may be, however, you're smarmy responses say otherwise.
I'm not sure what percentage of the total you mean by "often", but I grant that it may be in part a tool to move models off the lot. Buying a car from a dealership is like gambling. The house almost always wins. That's sales experts/organizations vs. average consumers. That's capitalism. Advertising 0% interest is a fantastic marketing tool. It gets people in the door, where they are immediately at a disadvantage because now they're in "your" house. And they have many tools to extract additional dollars from you outside of the financing.
I just prefer to walk in the door knowing exactly the rate I can get and with a draft check ready to go. The one time I made the mistake of allowing the dealership to offer financing at the rate I knew I could get and with the credit union I knew they could offer financing with, they came back with double the rate I could get, with some other financing institution, and had managed three hard credit pulls on my credit.
No thanks.
So look up Opportunity Cost of Capital, and get back to me.
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Now I'd do that too if I had your connections. No such luck here.
Are you an EAA member? If so, you’ve got the (nearly) same connections.
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/eaa-membership/eaa-member-benefits/save-with-eaa-affinity-benefits-and-discounts/ford-partner-recognition-program
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No time to read an article. Since you and Steingar used the same word I figured you’d be able to explain it and defend it.
My misuse of the word. The dealer network along various laws create what I believe is one of the most miserable experiences in big ticket purchases.
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Several weeks ago I was minding my own business waiting for the guy in front of me to turn left across traffic. Lady behind me stopped and the lady behind her never stopped. By outward appearance you'd not really know much happened to my car.
Original estimate to repair was $1307. Drop the car off Monday and work commences. Wednesday I get an email, there is more damage than we thought we're let the insurance company know. New estimate is $4185, car valued at $4035 and the car is declared totaled.
Start the the process today to find a replacement and first looked at Carmax for some used cars. Thinking about things we felt it might make more sense to go new. We went to a local Rick Hendrick Chevrolet. I would not send my worst enemy there. Old style dealership, lots of cars, but you can't just go and browse. We drive one and then and then sit down and tell the guy we want to hear his best price. What he comes back with doesn't even match what is on their website. We tell him it's not good so he heads off to see the manager again. When he comes back with yet another bad number I proceed to tell him how poorly they treat their customers and we head off.
We went and had dinner and then headed to a dealer that is part of the Costco network. While at dinner I look up a couple of cars and we tell them the stock numbers. Guy heads off and brings both vehicles up to the front door and we go out, look at them and decide which one we wanted. We go back in, he heads off and comes back with the Costco deal which turn out to be some 6k less than Hendricks for the same level vehicle. We set an appointment to complete the deal tomorrow, no money needed to hold the vehicle.
Night and day difference between the two. Second place is family run, been there 70 years, Christian music playing in the show room. Good experience.
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Lucifer has already said that "Monopoly" may not be the right word, and he is right about that. So what is the argument?
The dealership system is a business model that has been entrenched by overzealous regulation. The model is intended to maximize profits and efficiency for the car manufacturers. I don't like it, but maybe it has some benefits. Maybe without that sort of regulatory protection, our country would have lost even more of our manufacturing capacity in the past several decades. But that doesn't mean it always has to be that way.
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No time to read an article. Since you and Steingar used the same word I figured you’d be able to explain it and defend it.
“monopoly” - “an exclusive privilege to carry on a business, traffic, or service, granted by a government.” (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/monopoly (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/monopoly))
Tesla was denied, by law, the right to sell its electric cars directly to customers because only non-manufacture owned dealers are allowed to do that. The laws basically grant a sales monopoly to an entrenched group. Such laws are contrary to free a market.
More on Tesla’s dealership dispute here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes)
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I believe the same laws hold in the alcohol industry, at least here. A large brewer (non microbrewery) cannot sell direct to the public, they are required to have a non affiliated distributor.
Are there other industries like this too? What is the logic behind the laws?
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So here’s a fun one. The heater in my little convertible is busticated. The funny thing is if I turn up the speed on the fan I can hear is whirring but no heat and little blowing air, all of it cold. Sounds like a hose came loose, but I haven’t a floor jack and even I am not sufficiently diminutive to crawl underneath that thing.
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So here’s a fun one. The heater in my little convertible is busticated. The funny thing is if I turn up the speed on the fan I can hear is whirring but no heat and little blowing air, all of it cold. Sounds like a hose came loose, but I haven’t a floor jack and even I am not sufficiently diminutive to crawl underneath that thing.
Do a google search on make and model with the phrase fan works but will not blow hot air.
Could be something simple as a suck valve.
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Do a google search on make and model with the phrase fan works but will not blow hot air.
Could be something simple as a suck valve.
Thermostat?
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So here’s a fun one. The heater in my little convertible is busticated. The funny thing is if I turn up the speed on the fan I can hear is whirring but no heat and little blowing air, all of it cold. Sounds like a hose came loose, but I haven’t a floor jack and even I am not sufficiently diminutive to crawl underneath that thing.
Put the top down. Turn up the news (any station; they all put out hot air).
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Thermostat?
Dunno. Without knowing the make and model and how the system is designed. Like any other older car, someone else has already experienced the same problem, and there is a good chance to find something online to tell how to fix it.
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Here's an interesting discussion.
We often talk about our "free market system" here in the US. Let's take autos as an example, we really don't have a free market on them.
Automobiles are very heavily regulated in this country. Go to a dealer and try to buy a stripped down vehicle, and when I say stripped down, I mean something like a basic truck with no AC, no power anything, and no airbags or tire pressure sensors. When I was growing up we called these farm trucks.
You can still buy these kinds of vehicles around the world, but not here in our hyper regulated market.
Take the Toyota Land Cruiser 70 Series. This vehicle has been in production for the past 35 years, a basic SUV design (comes in pick up, wagon and a few other versions), diesel power, rugged as hell and built for the worst. You see these vehicles in Australian outback, Africa, the Middle East and Asia, and to some degree Europe. It's literally a vehicle that you buy and run the rest of your life.
Toyota won't sell them in the US. Why? They would have to redesign the thing to meet our regulations. Part of the redesign is to actually weaken the front structure so it will collapse in an accident. Toyota did this with the FJ Cruiser and the result was if used off road the front fenders would start sagging from the weakened structiure. Fortunately the fix was to go in and build doublers on the inner fenders to beef up the structure.
There are actually lots of great autos sold around the world, but you won't see them here due to our "free market".
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Here's an interesting discussion.
We often talk about our "free market system" here in the US. Let's take autos as an example, we really don't have a free market on them.
Automobiles are very heavily regulated in this country. Go to a dealer and try to buy a stripped down vehicle, and when I say stripped down, I mean something like a basic truck with no AC, no power anything, and no airbags or tire pressure sensors. When I was growing up we called these farm trucks.
You can still buy these kinds of vehicles around the world, but not here in our hyper regulated market.
Take the Toyota Land Cruiser 70 Series. This vehicle has been in production for the past 35 years, a basic SUV design (comes in pick up, wagon and a few other versions), diesel power, rugged as hell and built for the worst. You see these vehicles in Australian outback, Africa, the Middle East and Asia, and to some degree Europe. It's literally a vehicle that you buy and run the rest of your life.
Toyota won't sell them in the US. Why? They would have to redesign the thing to meet our regulations. Part of the redesign is to actually weaken the front structure so it will collapse in an accident. Toyota did this with the FJ Cruiser and the result was if used off road the front fenders would start sagging from the weakened structiure. Fortunately the fix was to go in and build doublers on the inner fenders to beef up the structure.
There are actually lots of great autos sold around the world, but you won't see them here due to our "free market".
You can apply this to so many things, almost everything really.
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I've always wanted a Land Rover D90 Defender. I had to buy a Jeep Wrangler instead as they can not sell them here due to DOT regulations. I've been happy with the Jeep, and it has been very reliable, which Land Rovers typically aren't, so I am probably better off. But still, there are a lot of cool vehicles that can't come here due to our onerous government regulations. Horrible, for a country that claims freedom, and liberty is important.
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I've always wanted a Land Rover D90 Defender. I had to buy a Jeep Wrangler instead as they can not sell them here due to DOT regulations. I've been happy with the Jeep, and it has been very reliable, which Land Rovers typically aren't, so I am probably better off. But still, there are a lot of cool vehicles that can't come here due to our onerous government regulations. Horrible, for a country that claims freedom, and liberty is important.
The average person has no idea the impact of regulations. They can lead to disaster. Take the water limitation on low flow toilets etc.
Suppose a human needs a minimum of 1 gallon water per day for all needs, to survive. Government regulations mandating that we use less water bring us closer to the minimum required. That’s not a good thing, it leaves no cushion! Suppose in a free market, no government interference, people tend to use 20 gallons of water per day. Infrastructure and facilities would be set up to process that much. Price would be set on the supply demand curve at that amount. Now if disaster strikes there’s a potential cushion of 19 gallons that can be cut back before survival is threatened. But if government regulations mandate we live closer to the minimum as a matter of course, there’s less wiggle room in the event of unforeseen problems that effect water supply.
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Well, it happened. Car started overheating. It sits where I left it, which I think is in a safe location. Someone said it right, thermostat. Either that, or the valve is frozen closed. Calling my mechanic in the a.m. Might have it towed over, I am quite concerned about driving it. Boy am I going to be broke.
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Well, it happened. Car started overheating. It sits where I left it, which I think is in a safe location. Someone said it right, thermostat. Either that, or the valve is frozen closed. Calling my mechanic in the a.m. Might have it towed over, I am quite concerned about driving it. Boy am I going to be broke.
Another possibility is a coolant leak. Heater relies on coolant for heat transport, so that could explain both problems. Had that happen to me about a year ago - fortunately I had it checked out before I had lost enough that engine cooling was seriously compromised. It did not come close to breaking me - but was somewhat expensive, on the order of 0.3 amu.
Just a thought - you'll know soon, and hopefully it won't be too expensive.
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Well, it happened. Car started overheating. It sits where I left it, which I think is in a safe location. Someone said it right, thermostat. Either that, or the valve is frozen closed. Calling my mechanic in the a.m. Might have it towed over, I am quite concerned about driving it. Boy am I going to be broke.
No heat at the heater yet car overheats sounds to me like the water pump shit the bed.
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No heat at the heater yet car overheats sounds to me like the water pump shit the bed.
A bad pressure cap on the radiator will do the same thing as he described.
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A bad pressure cap on the radiator will do the same thing as he described.
Goes to my mechanic tonight. I'll drive it very gingerly, and if I see overheating I'll shut it down and let it cool off. Tempted to just get a tow, but I'd need a flatbed with the mid-engine car.
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Goes to my mechanic tonight. I'll drive it very gingerly, and if I see overheating I'll shut it down and let it cool off. Tempted to just get a tow, but I'd need a flatbed with the mid-engine car.
Did you check to see if there was fluid in the radiator?
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Did you check to see if there was fluid in the radiator?
He should also check the blinker fluid level while he’s at it.
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Did you check to see if there was fluid in the radiator?
Yep, this is the first thing I would check (see post 91). Add some fluid if needed - of course if there's a leak it won't last long, but hopefully long enough to get it to the mechanic.
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Did you check to see if there was fluid in the radiator?
Yeah, checked yesterday, saw plenty.
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Yeah, checked yesterday, saw plenty.
That indicates the fluid is not moving around properly. The typical failure is a thermostat. Secondarily failure would be water pump, but that usually noticeable by leaking.
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That indicates the fluid is not moving around properly. The typical failure is a thermostat. Secondarily failure would be water pump, but that usually noticeable by leaking.
My thinking exactly. Been watching, haven't seen any leaks. Have seen smoke coming out portside aft. Could be oil on the exhaust, I just had it changed. But that's the hot side of the engine.
Could be a bad sensor, wouldn't be the first time. But given the lack of heat, I am siding on the side of extreme caution.
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I assume you checked the water pump belt? That would mimic a failed pump without the leak.
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My thinking exactly. Been watching, haven't seen any leaks. Have seen smoke coming out portside aft. Could be oil on the exhaust, I just had it changed. But that's the hot side of the engine.
Could be a bad sensor, wouldn't be the first time. But given the lack of heat, I am siding on the side of extreme caution.
Im betting on the thermostat.
IIRC those cars had electric radiator fans. If the fan is not being triggered to come on at whatever heat value that too will create problems.
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My vote is bad thermostat stuck closed, or dead water pump. In that order.
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My vote is bad thermostat stuck closed, or dead water pump. In that order.
Nonsense- it's Trump's fault.
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Oh it gets even better. The parking brake had locked a few weeks ago, I just figured it was some ice or some such and it would loosen up when things warmed up, which they did and it did. Well, last night it was cold. Parking brake locked up again. Between that and all the engine problems I tossed in the towel and called a wrecker. It now sits at my mechanics with my wallet a bit lighter.
We went out to dinner and ate impossible burgers.
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Oh it gets even better. The parking brake had locked a few weeks ago, I just figured it was some ice or some such and it would loosen up when things warmed up, which they did and it did. Well, last night it was cold. Parking brake locked up again. Between that and all the engine problems I tossed in the towel and called a wrecker. It now sits at my mechanics with my wallet a bit lighter.
We went out to dinner and ate impossible burgers.
Perhaps if you call AOC, she will see that some rich person pays to fix your car.
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Perhaps if you call AOC, she will see that some rich person pays to fix your car.
No no, cars are out with the green plan. She just might give you a discount on the bus pass, though. Oh, wait, no. You can ride a cow...oh wait, no...
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Perhaps if you call AOC, she will see that some rich person pays to fix your car.
My own car is my responsibility, and I will pay for the repairs. I still think the right blew it on AOC. She's a freshman Congresscritter, usually not very powerful or influential. But because of all the attention piled onto her by the right she is now very influential and fairly powerful. Had the right just ignored her she would be able to do little or influence little, and might no t have even won a second term. I bet she has no difficulty winning reelection now.
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My own car is my responsibility, and I will pay for the repairs. I still think the right blew it on AOC. She's a freshman Congresscritter, usually not very powerful or influential. But because of all the attention piled onto her by the right she is now very influential and fairly powerful. Had the right just ignored her she would be able to do little or influence little, and might no t have even won a second term. I bet she has no difficulty winning reelection now.
Ok Mikey. Totally ignore my post about the MSMs push of AOC as the next Barack. Don’t be so blind.
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My own car is my responsibility, and I will pay for the repairs. I still think the right blew it on AOC. She's a freshman Congresscritter, usually not very powerful or influential. But because of all the attention piled onto her by the right she is now very influential and fairly powerful. Had the right just ignored her she would be able to do little or influence little, and might no t have even won a second term. I bet she has no difficulty winning reelection now.
Actually, AOC is laughing stock, but without the GOP putting the spotlight on her, the MSM would have her looking like a Saint.
Why is your car your responsibility? That is quite a conservative outlook.
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The MEDIA created the buzz about AOC. Conservatives, Democrats, and socialists are just commenting on the STUPID stuff she says and does in the media. Even her own party doesn't like her. So don't blame conservatives. They don't tell her the stupid stuff to say. She does that own her own, and the Media repeats it, and showcases her utter stupidity.
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Oh it gets even better. The parking brake had locked a few weeks ago, I just figured it was some ice or some such and it would loosen up when things warmed up, which they did and it did. Well, last night it was cold. Parking brake locked up again. Between that and all the engine problems I tossed in the towel and called a wrecker. It now sits at my mechanics with my wallet a bit lighter.
We went out to dinner and ate impossible burgers.
The freezing parking brake can be fixed with drying the moving parts and giving them a good lubrication. That will offset the accumulated moisture that is freezing.
Hopefully the overheating is something simple. R&R a thermostat is fairly painless.
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Yeah it was simple. When i looked over the antifreeze there was plenty. The next day it was gone. A seal gave and it spilled, evaporated, or got burned off in the exhaust (hence the smoke I was seeing. My mechanic had to spend all day bleeding the lines (not easy on a little sports car) but its back.
As far as the parking brake, I'm going to leave it in gear in my garage, and probably only use the parking brake when I go out. I'll follow this regimen until summer, when everything melts. The problem is the car is slung low, and there lots of frozen and freezing crap here. Yeah, I can dry it out, but it'll just get clogged up again.
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Yeah it was simple. When i looked over the antifreeze there was plenty. The next day it was gone. A seal gave and it spilled, evaporated, or got burned off in the exhaust (hence the smoke I was seeing. My mechanic had to spend all day bleeding the lines (not easy on a little sports car) but its back.
As far as the parking brake, I'm going to leave it in gear in my garage, and probably only use the parking brake when I go out. I'll follow this regimen until summer, when everything melts. The problem is the car is slung low, and there lots of frozen and freezing crap here. Yeah, I can dry it out, but it'll just get clogged up again.
The grease on the parking brake cables and mechanism will displace the moisture. But from the sound of it, it would need to be on a lift to get to it. Next time you have the car lifted have them grease everything. Cheap insurance and the car will like it.
Glad the coolant problem wasn't anything really bad.
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The grease on the parking brake cables and mechanism will displace the moisture. But from the sound of it, it would need to be on a lift to get to it. Next time you have the car lifted have them grease everything. Cheap insurance and the car will like it.
Yeah, I'd like to, and I think I know where the relevant parts are. But I'd need ramps, or a floor jack, or something else I haven't got. Truth be told I'm not much of a mechanic when it comes to cars. Did a lot of wrenching on bikes in my youth (before I had a wife and property to maintain. Idyllic times. The ultimate irony of my youth, I always wanted a garage when I had the time to wrench. Now that I have a garage I really don't have the time).
Glad the coolant problem wasn't anything really bad.
Thanks. I suppose I should have seen this before my mechanic, but that wouldn't have changed the outcome. Thankfully no damage was done the engine, and my mechanic is both cheap and good.
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As far as the parking brake, I'm going to leave it in gear in my garage, and probably only use the parking brake when I go out. I'll follow this regimen until summer, when everything melts. The problem is the car is slung low, and there lots of frozen and freezing crap here. Yeah, I can dry it out, but it'll just get clogged up again.
You just need to put a little wd40 on the disks or drums. That will keep the pads from sticking.
Just don't try to use your brakes afterwards.
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Glad it was just that.
I replaced my girlfriend's car's front brake pads on Saturday. Afterward I go on a test drive and I'm getting a "whomp whomp whomp" from front right when not under braking. Doesn't appear to be dragging.
Back in the driveway and I pull the wheel off to look for the issue. Dust guard isn't touching the rotor. Caliper and piston look fine. Eventually I discover that what I think is the problem: the new retaining clips have little fins and they are extremely close to the edge of the rotor. I wonder if they're rubbing the rusty edge of the rotor at some point in the rotation?
I bent the little fins in and the noise is gone. I've done 5 or 6 brake jobs and this was a first for me. Always interesting.
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You just need to put a little wd40 on the disks or drums. That will keep the pads from sticking.
Just don't try to use your brakes afterwards.
Not big on WD40 as anything but a degreaser, and not too sanguine about using it for that. But some teflon lubricant like trifle might take care of the problem, and if not some grease should do the job. On the other hand, just leaving it in gear for the winter isn't that bitter a pill to swallow. The problem will fix itself this summer.
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Not big on WD40 as anything but a degreaser, and not too sanguine about using it for that. But some teflon lubricant like trifle might take care of the problem, and if not some grease should do the job. On the other hand, just leaving it in gear for the winter isn't that bitter a pill to swallow. The problem will fix itself this summer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't really done any mechanical work since I used to set the points with a matchbook cover (which was amazingly accurate). But don't disc brake pads stay in contact with the disc even when not engaged? It is only light contact with negligible friction while rolling, but they stay in contact, and can freeze in position. Of course, other brake components can freeze up too.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't really done any mechanical work since I used to set the points with a matchbook cover (which was amazingly accurate). But don't disc brake pads stay in contact with the disc even when not engaged? It is only light contact with negligible friction while rolling, but they stay in contact, and can freeze in position. Of course, other brake components can freeze up too.
Not to my knowledge. The disc stand off, and the caliper pushes it closed. At least that's how I remember it from the brake jobs I did in my glorious yesteryear. Also, its only the parking brake. I can feel the lack of tension in the lever, the parking brake doesn't disengage. It really isn't a burden to just not use it in cold weather.
Once things warm up a bit I might go look for a floor jack, to see if I can't ameliorate the situation. That, and if water is getting in there so is salt, so it would be well worth it to take that apart and do some cleaning. But I have to be able to get under the car without fear of getting squashed, and that takes equipment I don't have.
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Every now and again Costco sells a very nice low profile floor jack. It's a beast, I have one. Jack stands are cheap and should be used in addition to a jack. I like at least two forms of protection from being smushed by the car. And if I have a tire off I'll throw that under as well.