PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Little Joe on March 17, 2019, 02:18:39 PM
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In the TDS thread, Anthony suggested that non-violent criminals should not be jailed at all. I disagreed with him and sort of tongue-in-cheek said perhaps they should be executed. Of course, I would not actually go along with that, but we do need some serious reform.
Prison really should be a last resort. Almost NOBODY comes out of prison a better person, although there are exceptions. And anyone out of prison is going to have a problem finding a decent job for the rest of their life. That in itself is a crime (or should be looked at as such).
Lets throw out some ideas and suggestions.
I remember many years ago an American was caught somewhere in S.E. Asia spitting on the sidewalk. The punishment was caning. I forget how many lashes they got with cane, but at first I was aghast. Then I thought that might not be a bad idea. Certainly better than long term incarceration. And it probably would have some deterrent effect, especially with regards to second offenses, whereas a stretch in jail is actually like "school for criminals". When they get out they can't get a good job so they use what the learned in prison to become more effective criminals.
So I suggest that for first offenses like littering or petty shoplifting, the penalty is something like 15 lashes. Second offenses will be more lashes.
Or Decriminalize most drugs, but NOT the crimes they commit to get the drugs.
Let's have some other ideas; like decriminalize prostitution. But something like sex trafficking minors would get severe penalties, up to and including death.
Go . . .
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I am in favor of more people in jail, but better conditions in jail for non violent offenders. Jail is meant to be a punishment, but also a prevention of future crimes. Hard to do that when surviving prison requires skills that are incompatible with civilian life.
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In the TDS thread, Anthony suggested that non-violent criminals should not be jailed at all. I disagreed with him and sort of tongue-in-cheek said perhaps they should be executed. Of course, I would not actually go along with that, but we do need some serious reform.
Prison really should be a last resort. Almost NOBODY comes out of prison a better person, although there are exceptions. And anyone out of prison is going to have a problem finding a decent job for the rest of their life. That in itself is a crime (or should be looked at as such).
Lets throw out some ideas and suggestions.
I remember many years ago an American was caught somewhere in S.E. Asia spitting on the sidewalk. The punishment was caning. I forget how many lashes they got with cane, but at first I was aghast. Then I thought that might not be a bad idea. Certainly better than long term incarceration. And it probably would have some deterrent effect, especially with regards to second offenses, whereas a stretch in jail is actually like "school for criminals". When they get out they can't get a good job so they use what the learned in prison to become more effective criminals.
So I suggest that for first offenses like littering or petty shoplifting, the penalty is something like 15 lashes. Second offenses will be more lashes.
Or Decriminalize most drugs, but NOT the crimes they commit to get the drugs.
Let's have some other ideas; like decriminalize prostitution. But something like sex trafficking minors would get severe penalties, up to and including death.
Go . . .
I don't think that people that do not pose a violent threat to society to be jailed. Maybe house arrest, fines, probation etch could be used instead of jail time due to the expense and over crowding in jails. Plus, why do you want these non violent criminals to make contacts in jail, and be influenced to pursue further crime. I just don't see the benefit of jail to these types of people.
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Plus, why do you want these non violent criminals to make contacts in jail, and be influenced to pursue further crime. I just don't see the benefit of jail to these types of people.
Does this sound like I want them in prison?
Prison really should be a last resort. Almost NOBODY comes out of prison a better person, although there are exceptions. And anyone out of prison is going to have a problem finding a decent job for the rest of their life. That in itself is a crime (or should be looked at as such).
I remember many years ago an American was caught somewhere in S.E. Asia spitting on the sidewalk. The punishment was caning. I forget how many lashes they got with cane, but at first I was aghast. Then I thought that might not be a bad idea. Certainly better than long term incarceration. And it probably would have some deterrent effect, especially with regards to second offenses, whereas a stretch in jail is actually like "school for criminals". When they get out they can't get a good job so they use what the learned in prison to become more effective criminals.
So I opened up a thread for suggestions.
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Does this sound like I want them in prison?
I meant "you" figuratively", as in people in general, not YOU per se.
So I opened up a thread for suggestions.
And I think it is a legitimate topic for discussion.
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I am in favor of more people in jail, but better conditions in jail for non violent offenders. Jail is meant to be a punishment, but also a prevention of future crimes. Hard to do that when surviving prison requires skills that are incompatible with civilian life.
We already have way too many people in jail.
I could almost agree with your idea of better conditions if we reduced the jail population drastically, but as it is, just giving everyone a decent desert with dinner would probably cost Billions.
What would you suggest to make it nicer yet still maintain security?
I might be more in favor of Anthony's suggestion of house arrest if we could really verify their movements. Perhaps an implantable GPS that could be detonated if it left a defined area (like home to work).
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There should be almost no prisons. Citizens should have the right to defend themselves and their property with deadly force. Criminals not taken out of the gene pool by would-be victims should be confined to psychiatric hospitals and studied until we find the root causes of sociopathy. I used to be all for "Punish the bastards!" but now I believe:
1.) Punishment (prison) does not deter. It only embitters them and it trains them to be even worse criminals.
2.) Caning and corporal punishment sounds good in theory ("Punish the bastards!") but it is way too prurient. Feeding the mob's desire to witness physical torture is not what an advanced civilized society should be about.
3.) Crime has certain root causes, some well understood and others not so well understood. But "some people are just evil" is a cop out. Science can lead us to biochemical or other physical reasons some people commit evil acts. Other crimes are committed by normal people who don't intend to commit a crime but do so on a technicality or by accident or simply stupid youth, or, bad law. Bigamy for example, in fundamental Mormons is technically a crime in this country, but they are actually following their religion. We have no business putting such a person who is otherwise a good law abiding citizen, in prison. So we should totally overhaul our laws, they are too onerous, too numerous. Victimless crimes should not be crimes at all.
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Unfortunately, today's law enforcement and judicial system are huge revenue generators for jurisdictions even with prisons costing so much to operate that is a separate budget. The police now WANT to get otherwise law abiding citizens into the system, then bleed them dry with fines, court costs, fees, and other charges.
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Penal colonies.
Find a deserted island with miles upon miles of water around it (should be shark infested, bonus).
Drop them there, give them a few gardening tools to grow food, and move on.
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I can’t believe some of you guys and gals.
This just popped up as a headline: A Pennsylvania Sexual Predator Physician Molested several generations of children, gets 158 years in Prison.
Some of you wouldn’t jail him.
Someone would do away with prisons. Someone else might think this is non-violent and think he shouldn’t be in prison. Someone said the “just evil” thing is a cop out. Tell that to these victims, or the victims of Manson, John Wayne Gacy, a clown he molested and mutilated young boys and buried them in his crawl space, or Jeffery Dahmer, who ate his victims.
I knew a guy who was one of 3 owners of an investment company who created a $80mm Ponzi scheme. Each of them are in federal prison for 6 to 15 years. What else should we do with them? Put on an ankle bracelet while they lounge by the pool for 10 years?
I’m starting to like Lucifer’s methods.
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Oh, sexual predators, pedophiles, etc get FIRING SQUADS.
Jail time, like lifetime jail time. To me that is violence, and they pose a real THREAT to society. But, yeah firing squad, no blindfold.
So should drug users get jail time?
When you are on house arrest, you stay in your house, not go to the pool. They have the technology to keep you there or send you to jail.
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When you are on house arrest, you stay in your house, not go to the pool. They have the technology to keep you there or send you to jail.
How is someone on house arrest supposed to pay their rent and grocery bill if they can't leave the house? Or are taxpayers supposed to pay for their room and board? That would be much more expensive than a even a "nice" prison.
I say decriminalize a lot of things; eg. prostitution or marijuana use. Deport all illegal aliens instead of incarcerating them, but be sure to secure the borders so they don't just come right back. Now that we have reduced the size of the prison population, crack down on the brutal treatment and gang culture. Provide job training. Expand work-release programs.
I have other suggestions, like castration, but that may run into Constitutional issues.
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A Pennsylvania Sexual Predator Physician Molested several generations of children, gets 158 years in Prison.
Some of you wouldn’t jail him.
Someone would do away with prisons. Someone else might think this is non-violent and think he shouldn’t be in prison.
In what universe would you define assault on a child as non-violent?
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In what universe would you define assault on a child as non-violent?
I would, but I’m suspecting some wouldn’t.
Listen, I heard this shit in Wisconsin when this pencil necked geek democrat beat out Scott Walker. He promised to reduce the Wisconsin prison population by 50%. The problem is that 2/3rds of the 23,000 inmates have committed violent offenses. That means that some violent offenders would by math be let out. They are making justifications including decriminalizing some prior charges, doing away with parole revocation, and other things meant to minimize the specter of having bad guys let out the front door.
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Universal Free Airplanes. Solves everything.
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Universal Free Airplanes. Solves everything.
Yeah. 737 Max 800s.
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I can’t believe some of you guys and gals.
This just popped up as a headline: A Pennsylvania Sexual Predator Physician Molested several generations of children, gets 158 years in Prison.
Some of you wouldn’t jail him.
Someone would do away with prisons. Someone else might think this is non-violent and think he shouldn’t be in prison. Someone said the “just evil” thing is a cop out. Tell that to these victims, or the victims of Manson, John Wayne Gacy, a clown he molested and mutilated young boys and buried them in his crawl space, or Jeffery Dahmer, who ate his victims.
I knew a guy who was one of 3 owners of an investment company who created a $80mm Ponzi scheme. Each of them are in federal prison for 6 to 15 years. What else should we do with them? Put on an ankle bracelet while they lounge by the pool for 10 years?
I’m starting to like Lucifer’s methods.
I said no prison, but I did not say let them run free. Put them in psychiatric hospitals for life with maximum security - no chance of escape, but with medical and psychiatric care, and research, to figure out WHY they are child molesters or whatever, so we can do away with that sort! Yes, calling them "evil" and leaving it at that is a cop out. You don't want to try to figure out why they are that way??? You don't want to try to figure out how to prevent people from becoming that way??
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I said no prison, but I did not say let them run free. Put them in psychiatric hospitals for life with maximum security - no chance of escape, but with medical and psychiatric care, and research, to figure out WHY they are child molesters or whatever, so we can do away with that sort! Yes, calling them "evil" and leaving it at that is a cop out. You don't want to try to figure out why they are that way??? You don't want to try to figure out how to prevent people from becoming that way??
No I don’t. Whether I figure out why Jeffrey Dahmer tortured and ate his victims about 8 miles from where I’m sitting in my office is of less concern than what I’m grabbing for dinner when I get home late.
Isn’t it a little naive to think you can “figure out” the evil that is in some humans’ DNA?
Evil people have existed forever. They will always exist forever. My job is to protect my
lambs from the wolves. Period, end of story.
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Yeah. 737 Max 800s.
Exactly. Simple, proven.......
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No I don’t. Whether I figure out why Jeffrey Dahmer tortured and ate his victims about 8 miles from where I’m sitting in my office is of less concern than what I’m grabbing for dinner when I get home late.
Isn’t it a little naive to think you can “figure out” the evil that is in some humans’ DNA?
Evil people have existed forever. They will always exist forever. My job is to protect my
lambs from the wolves. Period, end of story.
And did you notice that my FIRST approach is to kill them on the spot before they get a chance to victimize? If I had my way my daughters would have carried guns on their person from the age of 13. They were well trained in firearms and self defensive shooting, as well as being black belts in martial arts, because I enrolled them, because my FIRST approach, like you, is to protect my lambs from the wolves.
The difference between you and me is for me that's not period, end of story. There is nothing naive in thinking we can eventually figure out what makes a psychopath. There's nothing wrong with applying scientific curiosity to the problem.
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Here's a good example of why we need a hella lot of reform. This lady was pulled for running a stop sign and ended up stripped and vaginally penetrated by a female officer in public, face down on the street, all for 0.2 ounces of marijuana.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyanpxw7v30&app=desktop
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Many in law enforcement and the judicial system want us disarmed, controlled and dependent. I just don't want to see otherwise good law abiding people incarcerated for stupid stuff. Yes, there is no one size fits all solution, but law enforcement, like politicians have become the ruling class in many ways.
Look at the current Democrat politicians that are gaining popularity. AOC, Beto, Bernie. They all are fine with taking our rights away, and younger people are fully on board.
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And did you notice that my FIRST approach is to kill them on the spot before they get a chance to victimize? If I had my way my daughters would have carried guns on their person from the age of 13. They were well trained in firearms and self defensive shooting, as well as being black belts in martial arts, because I enrolled them, because my FIRST approach, like you, is to protect my lambs from the wolves.
The difference between you and me is for me that's not period, end of story. There is nothing naive in thinking we can eventually figure out what makes a psychopath. There's nothing wrong with applying scientific curiosity to the problem.
I’ve seen One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. I’m not sure that’s much better than a prison.
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Here's a good example of why we need a hella lot of reform. This lady was pulled for running a stop sign and ended up stripped and vaginally penetrated by a female officer in public, face down on the street, all for 0.2 ounces of marijuana.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyanpxw7v30&app=desktop
That wasn’t a drug bust worthy of “reform.” That was an illegal assault by bad cops. Changing the law and legalizing pot wouldn’t have stopped this. Bad example.
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I’ve seen One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. I’m not sure that’s much better than a prison.
In addition to seeing that movie, I worked as a Red Cross volunteer inside a psychiatric hospital. You’re not telling me anything I don’t know, but what’s better is at least we might advance our knowledge in exchange for keeping them alive.
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That wasn’t a drug bust worthy of “reform.” That was an illegal assault by bad cops. Changing the law and legalizing pot wouldn’t have stopped this. Bad example.
I agree with the first two sentences but I don’t think such examples are rare. Maybe not that extreme but cops routinely try to circumvent your rights for the sake of making a bust or gaining civil forfeiture or writing needless tickets. Having so many petty laws gives them a sense of omnipotence over our lifestyles where they ought to be focused on serious violent crime.
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In addition to seeing that movie, I worked as a Red Cross volunteer inside a psychiatric hospital. You’re not telling me anything I don’t know, but what’s better is at least we might advance our knowledge in exchange for keeping them alive.
That had to be wild. You’re a better person than me, Rush. Seriously. I couldn’t do that.
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There must be a way for the CJ system to separate non violent/non threatening perpetrators of crime from the hardened violent criminals and pedophiles etc, whom are the people that really should be incarcerated in traditional jails. I don't know if it is a work release type of incarceration, or house arrest that allows one to go to work. I don't know. This is not my area of expertise. It just seems that once some of these people are put in traditional jails they get worse and eventually become career criminals.
Stan, your point is taken. Maybe drug DEALERS need to do jail time, and drug users go another route. Again, this is not my area of expertise.
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There must be a way for the CJ system to separate non violent/non threatening perpetrators of crime from the hardened violent criminals and pedophiles etc, whom are the people that really should be incarcerated in traditional jails. I don't know if it is a work release type of incarceration, or house arrest that allows one to go to work. I don't know. This is not my area of expertise. It just seems that once some of these people are put in traditional jails they get worse and eventually become career criminals.
Stan, your point is taken. Maybe drug DEALERS need to do jail time, and drug users go another route. Again, this is not my area of expertise.
Anthony, I think that is a major fallacy about drug users going to prison. That simply doesn’t exist. (I get that some exceptions apply, such as if someone on parole gets caught with heroin or something.).
First of all, there is no room for simple drug users. Hell, in Milwaukee and I presume elsewhere, the FIRST crime to get dropped by prosecutors is the use of a firearm in the commission if a felony. Why? Because federal prisons are too crowded, allegedly. If gun crimes are dropped, you can be damned sure that drug usage is dropped, and for the same reason.
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Anthony, I think that is a major fallacy about drug users going to prison. That simply doesn’t exist. (I get that some exceptions apply, such as if someone on parole gets caught with heroin or something.).
First of all, there is no room for simple drug users. Hell, in Milwaukee and I presume elsewhere, the FIRST crime to get dropped by prosecutors is the use of a firearm in the commission if a felony. Why? Because federal prisons are too crowded, allegedly. If gun crimes are dropped, you can be damned sure that drug usage is dropped, and for the same reason.
You're probably right, as I know a lot of crimes get pled down to much lesser offenses as DA's just want fast, out of court convictions to run up their numbers for political reasons.
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There must be a way for the CJ system to separate non violent/non threatening perpetrators of crime from the hardened violent criminals and pedophiles etc, whom are the people that really should be incarcerated in traditional jails. I don't know if it is a work release type of incarceration, or house arrest that allows one to go to work. I don't know. This is not my area of expertise. It just seems that once some of these people are put in traditional jails they get worse and eventually become career criminals.
Stan, your point is taken. Maybe drug DEALERS need to do jail time, and drug users go another route. Again, this is not my area of expertise.
I think that may actually be possible. But first, we either have to reduce the prison population (decriminalize certain victimless crimes) or build more prisons. I prefer the former.
Then we put violent criminals in different prisons from the non-violent criminals. I'm not saying put them in places like "Club-Fed", but just not smash all convicts into the same place. Judges already say that a convicted criminal will be housed in a facility to be determined by the Dept of Corrections. So direct the department to segregate prisoners based on the level of the violence of their crime (or other suitable classifications).
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I found this interesting. If it actually worked like it is supposed to, it would be a good start. But budgets and beds get in the way.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-judge-determine-what-prison-you-go-to
How does a judge determine what prison you go to?
After a person is convicted, they are sent to a reception center for a few weeks or months. Based on police and prisoner reports, evaluations are made to determine the “best” location for each prisoner. Allegedly prisons consider the safety and needs of the prisoner. For example, prisoners with mental or cognitive deficiencies are not supposed to be housed with people who will abuse them, and prisoners who have sworn enemies (such as rival gangs or hostile co-defendants) should be in separate facilities. Another consideration is the type of programs / classes needed by each prisoner. Allegedly, people needing employment training would go to prisons with such classes while people needing drug / addiction help would go to a facility with these types of classes.
Having completed a practicum at a prison in TN and conducted an extensive interviewed a man who spent 40 years working in prisons as the person who assigned prisoners to the various facilities & beds within his facility, I know the above is largely fictional. Prisons assign prisoners to the beds they have open. Sometimes they intentionally assign prisoners to places where they will be victims of other prisoners, but that practice seems to be declining. Prison programs are limited in number and most of them are not very instructional. I’ve talked with several men who report their “teachers” did not follow the curriculum (were there was one) and often did not show up to class for more than the time needed to get everyone’s signature.
For the most part, little consideration is given to keeping prisoners close to family members, and some private prisons actually ship prisoners to different states, making it almost impossible for families to visit prisoners. I’m sure you can call the department of corrections in your state to hear what they say are their criterion for assigning prisoner, but be aware that they do not feel a need to follow those standards to the letter of the law.