PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Anthony on October 03, 2019, 06:44:31 AM
-
Very sad for loss of life and loss of the aircraft. On some other forums I'm on they are calling for a permanent stop to all Warbird flights saying they are too old, and too dangerous. All should be in museums as static, non flying displays. What say you?
WINDSOR LOCKS, CT (WFSB) - Seven people died in a vintage WWII plane crash at Bradley International Airport in Windsor Locks.
The fiery crash happened at a building at the airport just before 10 a.m. on Wednesday.
The victims
In total, state police said 16 people were involved.
There were 13 people aboard the plane. Three of them were crew members and 10 were passengers. Seven of the people on board were killed.
Two airport employees were inside the building at the time of the crash.
One firefighter was hurt battling the fire.
https://www.wfsb.com/news/people-killed-in-b--crash-at-bradley/article_d514bd24-e51d-11e9-b6ac-47e02ec67428.html
-
Has the names been released yet?
I knew one of the pilots from years back, just seeing if he was flying.
-
Very sad for loss of life and loss of the aircraft. On some other forums I'm on they are calling for a permanent stop to al Warbird flights saying they are too old, and too dangerous. All should be in museums as static, non flying displays. What say you?
https://www.wfsb.com/news/people-killed-in-b--crash-at-bradley/article_d514bd24-e51d-11e9-b6ac-47e02ec67428.html
Like anything else that flies, it takes training and proficiency. With that said, I have no idea of how CF accomplishes this or whether it's a factor.
I do think this accident will probably put a stop to giving rides.
-
Very sad for loss of life and loss of the aircraft. On some other forums I'm on they are calling for a permanent stop to all Warbird flights saying they are too old, and too dangerous. All should be in museums as static, non flying displays. What say you?
Obviously these are not aviation forums.
-
Obviously these are not aviation forums.
No, more general and political, with people that have never sat left seat, or probably right seat for that matter.
-
No, more general and political, with people that have never sat left seat, or probably right seat for that matter.
You know..............................................morons.
-
Well, when I had a choice between doing aerobatics in an old warbird and a new Extra 300L, I took the Extra. Not that I don't trust pilots, but I'm a mechanical engineer too, and know a little about metal fatigue. Having said that, I'm just overly cautious in most areas of life, I'm not necessarily saying these things should be grounded. I don't know enough about the issue at this point, but I certainly don't think there should be a knee jerk emotional overreaction, and unfortunately that is likely.
-
Well, when I had a choice between doing aerobatics in an old warbird and a new Extra 300L, I took the Extra. Not that I don't trust pilots, but I'm a mechanical engineer too, and know a little about metal fatigue. Having said that, I'm just overly cautious in most areas of life, I'm not necessarily saying these things should be grounded. I don't know enough about the issue at this point, but I certainly don't think there should be a knee jerk emotional overreaction, and unfortunately that is likely.
They don't even know the CAUSE of the crash, yet people are calling to ground all warbirds.
-
Aircraft are meant to fly
If it's airworthy, let it fly.
-
They don't even know the CAUSE of the crash, yet people are calling to ground all warbirds.
The general public are idiots and the politicians will jump at the chance to benefit off other people’s tragedy.
-
Aircraft are meant to fly
If it's airworthy, let it fly.
“A ship in harbor is safe,
But that is not what ships are built for.”
John A. Shedd
-
I fly a Warbird for the Commemorative Air Force. I’m also the Wing Leader for the Wisconsin Wing of the CAF.
The Collings Foundation has a similar mission to the Commemorative Air Force, so when one Warbird goes down and especially if there is a loss of life, we all feel the pain.
The CAF’s mission is to Educate, Inspire, and Honor, by exposing current and future generations to the feel, sights and sounds of historical military aircraft, and educate the public about the men and women who flew them. (This is all paraphrased; you’ll find the exact mission at CommemorativeAirForce.org.)
The CAF is the largest flying history museum
In the world, with 170 WWII and later aircraft, with over 155 in flying condition. The Collings Foundation has about 30 flying aircraft.
I’m very certain that the level of training and maintenance is top notch in the CF as it is in the CAF. The thought of hurting a pax, or bending a piece of history, is worse than the idea of just losing my own life. It is very sobering to take a passenger up in a piece of history.
Most Warbirds operators fly these aircraft under a letter of authorization (LOA) with the FAA. I don’t know about the CF but I think that is how they operate.
My thoughts and prayers are with those affected by this accident.
And CT Senator Blumenthal’s call for more “scrutiny and oversight of these planes are going to continue to fly.”? The opportunistic little prick can kiss my ass.
-
Apparently, the first problem was the new engine.
-
^^^^Thanks Stan. I know these planes are meticulously maintained, and flown by extremely qualified pilots. Also, their safety record is excellent. Maybe Blumenthal needs to be reminded of that. Little D bag that he is.
-
There are enough examples in museums. If the owner wants to fly one and it is airworthy, then they should fly it.
-
There are enough examples in museums. If the owner wants to fly one and it is airworthy, then they should fly it.
Walk through the Air and Space Museum. Or the Udvar-Hazy Center at Dulles. What do you hear? Nothing. What do you smell? Nothing. What do you see? Basically 3-D artifacts.
Take a ride in a Warbird. Smell the oil. Smell the fumes. Smell the history. Hear the sound of a Ranger engine, or the roar of a Pratt & Whitney R-1340 in a T-6, or the R-2800 Double Wasp engine powering a Thunderbolt.
Watch a 90-year old veteran become a 22 year-old warrior again when he steps inside a B-17 once again.
That’s why we have to keep these aircraft flying.
-
^^^^^Agree. They need to fly. Just looking at them sitting there in a museum is OK, but nothing like seeing them in operation. Hearing the engines, smelling the oil and gas, hearing the brakes squeal, watching them taxi, takeoff, and land is priceless. That's why OSH is so cool, as that is constantly happening.
I hope they don't suspend giving rides, as that is just a great experience for many also, and helps defer some of the operating costs.
-
Democrats (communists) want to ground warbirds because they are a link to patriotism.
Democrats (communists) despise America and Americans because of the liberties won by patriotic men and women and want to erase that knowledge and history from all generations to come.
-
Little D bag that he is.
I saw what you did there!
-
^^^^^Agree. They need to fly. Just looking at them sitting there in a museum is OK, but nothing like seeing them in operation. Hearing the engines, smelling the oil and gas, hearing the brakes squeal, watching them taxi, takeoff, and land is priceless. That's why OSH is so cool, as that is constantly happening.
I hope they don't suspend giving rides, as that is just a great experience for many also, and helps defer some of the operating costs.
In most cases in aviation, it's not the FAA, but the insurance companies that can end up shutting down a program. And I don't think these organizations that have the warbirds can self insure.
-
Walk through the Air and Space Museum. Or the Udvar-Hazy Center at Dulles. What do you hear? Nothing. What do you smell? Nothing. What do you see? Basically 3-D artifacts.
Take a ride in a Warbird. Smell the oil. Smell the fumes. Smell the history. Hear the sound of a Ranger engine, or the roar of a Pratt & Whitney R-1340 in a T-6, or the R-2800 Double Wasp engine powering a Thunderbolt.
Watch a 90-year old veteran become a 22 year-old warrior again when he steps inside a B-17 once again.
That’s why we have to keep these aircraft flying.
I agree. I can make a personal decision not to fly in one if I want but unless there is overwhelming evidence that they aren’t reasonably safe, my general libertarian principle is let people do what they want. Nothing is 100% safe. People have varying risk tolerances.
That doesn’t mean let people do all things very likely to be dangerous, I’m not an anarchist. There is a cost to society even when you only hurt yourself.
Let’s have some quick and dirty fun with mandated seat belts and airbags in cars. Seatbelts alone reduce your risk of death by about 50%. Adding airbags reduces it only about another 10%, yet airbags are much more costly and come with unintended consequences, most notably the great increase of infants dying in hot cars because a distracted parent, not normally the one dropping them off at daycare, fails to remember the child - it not being directly in his vision right in the front seat. The kid’s not up front because airbags kill babies directly so babies are mandated to be tucked away hidden in the middle back seat, facing the wrong way.
Okay you can argue that the true root cause of most infant deaths in cars is feminism and the entry of women in the workforce. Babies are no longer safe at home with mommy all day. But these days it’s not the woman’s fault, most families need two incomes because when you double the workforce given the same number of jobs, you halve the earnings per job. Supply and demand! Has the entry of women in the workforce doubled a typical family’s standard of living? Of course not! Back when women stayed home the man’s earnings were sufficient to support a middle class lifestyle. Even worse, we must also account for the effect of greater proportion of the economy cycled through government waste, corruption and wealth redistribution (away from the middle class earners of course) so our standard of living has actually decreased, but I digress.
Back to seatbelts and air bags. Because the benefit of seatbelts alone is so huge, and cost relatively low, I generally favor mandating their use. But I disagree with mandated airbags. The marginal increase in safety is arguably not worth the costs, especially since there are better alternatives.
Size matters. All else equal, the bigger, heavier car is safer. Forcing cars to be energy efficient is the most counterproductive thing the government does for auto safety. The safest you can be in a car is to have a huge gas guzzler and install a five point harness.
The point is, I see no evidence that these warbirds are killing people at a great enough rate to ground them. If they start doing that, then I might reconsider.
-
Back to seatbelts and air bags. Because the benefit of seatbelts alone is so huge, and cost relatively low, I generally favor mandating their use. But I disagree with mandated airbags. The marginal increase in safety is arguably not worth the costs, especially since there are better alternatives.
The intent of airbags was not the incremental protection over seatbelts, but to protect the Darwin candidates who don't wear seatbelts. Remember for a while the cars with motorized shoulder belts or shoulder belts attached to the upper corner of the door frame? When airbags first came out, the Feds for a while allowed some cars to be sold sans airbags as long as they had active seatbelt systems like the ones just mentioned. Of course, as safety became a bigger selling point and older car platforms were re-designed, the active belts went away and airbags became universal.
-
The intent of airbags was not the incremental protection over seatbelts, but to protect the Darwin candidates who don't wear seatbelts. Remember for a while the cars with motorized shoulder belts or shoulder belts attached to the upper corner of the door frame? When airbags first came out, the Feds for a while allowed some cars to be sold sans airbags as long as they had active seatbelt systems like the ones just mentioned. Of course, as safety became a bigger selling point and older car platforms were re-designed, the active belts went away and airbags became universal.
Well now you’re going to ignite my rant about why we are hell bent on devolving our species by protecting Darwin candidates in the first place.
-
There are enough examples in museums. If the owner wants to fly one and it is airworthy, then they should fly it.
I totally agree! While there are many in museums, I don't know of any that allow people to go inside and imagine what it was like for teenagers to fly in harms way. A traveling display makes history available to far more people than static roped-off displays. Let's go out to the airport and check out the B17 is far more attractive than driving hours to a museum.
-
Well now you’re going to ignite my rant about why we are hell bent on devolving our species by protecting Darwin candidates in the first place.
Well, you'll find lots of things to rant about. Like, why you have to put the brake on to take the car out of park, why if you let go of the lawn mower handle, the engine stops, why friggin McDonalds coffee cups have warnings on them, why there are back up cameras....
-
Maybe Stan has access to the stats as he is in the Confederate, errrr, I mean the Commemorative Air Force. Warbird flights are very, very safe. I can't even remember the last time one crashed with passengers. No Reno is not indicative as that is air RACING.
-
Maybe Stan has access to the stats as he is in the Confederate, errrr, I mean the Commemorative Air Force. Warbird flights are very, very safe. I can't even remember the last time one crashed with passengers. No Reno is not indicative as that is air RACING.
I don’t have any stats, but when I attend the Wing Staff Conference in Dallas (designed for officers of the various units to meet and discuss important matters) an annual segment is the incidents or accidents in the past year, what we can learn from them, and of course what does our insurance company say about things. Some years are much better than others. None have involved fatalities in the CAF for a very long time. However, 2017’s C-47 “Bluebonnet Bell” crash in Texas enroute to OSH resulted in a brief safety stand down for the entire CAF fleet. There were no fatalities but there were some serious burn injuries. There were no paid passengers, and all were CAF volunteers. One guy spoke who was in the back with I think 10-11 people. All had Nomex flight suits, nicely stowed away in the baggage compartment. When this guy exited the aircraft in the aft section, as soon as he jumped out, the spilled fuel ignited. 3rd degree burns from his sock line to the bottom of his shorts. Nomex is required for required crew members (in a C-47 I presume pilot and copilot, not sure if they have a flight engineer), but not for pax. The only one wearing Nomex was the co-pilot. Also, no one used the emergency exists, which would have kept them away from the fire. Lots of changes in procedures came about because of that.
The feeling was that the next serious accident could result in Major FAA intervention.
But in general, yes, Warbird flights are very safe, in large part because of the relationship the CAF has with the FAA, which checks our maintenance procedures and other things on a regular basis.
-
We have Aluminum Overcast scheduled in town on Veteran's Day Weekend, surely hope the FAA doesn't ground these birds.
-
We have Aluminum Overcast scheduled in town on Veteran's Day Weekend, surely hope the FAA doesn't ground these birds.
I don't think the FAA will. But I do see it becoming an insurance issue.
-
I don't think the FAA will. But I do see it becoming an insurance issue.
You mean private for-profit enterprises move faster than lumbering giant government bureaucracies?
-
I don't think the FAA will. But I do see it becoming an insurance issue.
They certainly could. Operators of certain vintage aircraft operate under Letters of Authorization with the FAA. They can yank authorization quite quickly.
-
You mean private for-profit enterprises move faster than lumbering giant government bureaucracies?
You got it.