Post by: nddons on February 21, 2020, 01:40:50 PM
Edit: Crap! Didn’t mean for it to be in the SZ. Should be in the Pilot Zone. I can’t change in on Tapatalk. Lucifer, can you move it for me?
Post by: Lucifer on February 21, 2020, 01:48:13 PM
And congrats on your purchase.
Post by: Anthony on February 21, 2020, 01:51:38 PM
I was watching an old movie the other day, a RKO film (Howard Hughes) and the airport, probably Van Nuys, must have been a Navion dealer around 1950 or so as there were a ton of Navions parked there, even though one of the main character was flying a Bonanza (slacker). Can't remember the name of the film.
We need details, pictures, engine, avionics, 20mm cannon or .50 cals. Enquiring minds want to know!
EDIT: The movie I mention above that showed all the Navions was "Born to be Bad", released in 1950, and produced by known aviator Howard Hughes and RKO Pictures.
Post by: Little Joe on February 21, 2020, 01:54:17 PM
Wow! Congrats!!! That's great news.Yeah!
. . . snip . . .
We need details, pictures, engine, avionics, 20mm cannon or .50 cals. Enquiring minds want to know!
Post by: Steingar on February 21, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Post by: Rush on February 21, 2020, 03:16:05 PM
Post by: rotorhead1026 on February 21, 2020, 05:39:36 PM
Wow! Congrats!!! That's great news.
We need details, pictures, engine, avionics, 20mm cannon or .50 cals. Enquiring minds want to know!
I recommend a Gatling.
Post by: Anthony on February 21, 2020, 05:56:02 PM
I recommend a Gatling.
The guy I bought my Tiger from was a Cobra Pilot instructor when the Army still flew Cobras and he said the 20MM Gatling was a hoot to fire.
Post by: Username on February 21, 2020, 08:16:33 PM
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on February 21, 2020, 08:55:18 PM
Post by: nddons on February 21, 2020, 09:53:01 PM
Wow! Congrats!!! That's great news.I’ll send pics when it closes. People get emotional about Navions. Seller is a former Vietnam Navy pilot. IO-520-BB painted in military livery. With my CAF work and the way we conducted ourselves during the pre-buy I was told that I was deemed a “worthy buyer.”
I was watching an old movie the other day, a Republic film (Howard Hughes) and the airport, probably Van Nuys, must have been a Navion dealer around 1950 or so as there were a ton of Navions parked there, even though one of the main character was flying a Bonanza (slacker). Can't remember the name of the film.
We need details, pictures, engine, avionics, 20mm cannon or .50 cals. Enquiring minds want to know!
Post by: Anthony on February 22, 2020, 05:42:31 AM
I’ll send pics when it closes. People get emotional about Navions. Seller is a former Vietnam Navy pilot. IO-520-BB painted in military livery. With my CAF work and the way we conducted ourselves during the pre-buy I was told that I was deemed a “worthy buyer.”
Sounds very cool. I'm so excited. lol! ;D
Post by: Anthony on March 02, 2020, 06:05:51 AM
Post by: nddons on March 02, 2020, 05:23:53 PM
Any updates Stan?Bought a one-way ticket to Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport. If all goes well I’ll have the Navion in Wisconsin two weeks from today.
Post by: Anthony on March 02, 2020, 05:28:56 PM
Bought a one-way ticket to Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport. If all goes well I’ll have the Navion in Wisconsin two weeks from today.
Great news! Safe flights both ways!
Post by: Username on March 12, 2020, 07:48:59 AM
Post by: nddons on March 12, 2020, 08:53:18 AM
Would you care to share what you'll be paying for insurance? I've heard some horror stories about rates exploding upwards on complex aircraft.With no time in type, ASEL, instrument rating, complex and HP endorsements, 490 pic hours, $85k hull value, I’ll be paying about $2,600. I don’t think that’s too bad. It should go down with time in type, and a very slight reduction when I get my commercial.
Post by: nddons on March 12, 2020, 08:54:55 AM
Would you care to share what you'll be paying for insurance? I've heard some horror stories about rates exploding upwards on complex aircraft.According to Aviation Consumer it’s really the turbines and turboprop market that is taking it in the shorts, not the piston GA crowd.
Post by: Lucifer on March 12, 2020, 08:58:01 AM
With no time in type, ASEL, instrument rating, complex and HP endorsements, 490 pic hours, $85k hull value, I’ll be paying about $2,600. I don’t think that’s too bad. It should go down with time in type, and a very slight reduction when I get my commercial.
That's really not a bad quote. Good to hear.
Post by: nddons on March 12, 2020, 09:17:48 AM
That's really not a bad quote. Good to hear.Thanks. I didn’t think it was too bad. I used Ladd Gardner as the agent. They are big in the Warbird world. VERY easy to deal with. All their quotes were lower than AOPA. And, I can now drop my AOPA renters insurance as my owners insurance will cover any rental I may use. That was about $180/yr.
Post by: Anthony on March 12, 2020, 09:37:58 AM
Post by: Username on March 12, 2020, 10:14:20 AM
Post by: Anthony on March 16, 2020, 07:31:09 AM
Post by: nddons on March 16, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Were you able to get the Navion, Stan?Negative. A fucking stationary front was sitting over NE GA. We are trying this Friday or Saturday.
Neither the instructor nor I wanted to fly in IMC on a panel with which we are not familiar. We wouldn’t mind blowing through a layer but IMC was widespread on Saturday/Sunday.
Post by: Anthony on March 16, 2020, 08:36:28 AM
Negative. A fucking stationary front was sitting over NE GA. We are trying this Friday or Saturday.
Neither the instructor nor I wanted to fly in IMC on a panel with which we are not familiar. We wouldn’t mind blowing through a layer but IMC was widespread on Saturday/Sunday.
Wise choice. You want to stay alive to be able to enjoy it.
Post by: Mr Pou on March 16, 2020, 10:44:05 AM
Negative. A fucking stationary front was sitting over NE GA. We are trying this Friday or Saturday.
Neither the instructor nor I wanted to fly in IMC on a panel with which we are not familiar. We wouldn’t mind blowing through a layer but IMC was widespread on Saturday/Sunday.
These "fucking" stationary fronts have been here all winter and spring thus far. Crappiest winter for flying I can remember in a long time.
Post by: nddons on March 16, 2020, 11:08:35 AM
These "fucking" stationary fronts have been here all winter and spring thus far. Crappiest winter for flying I can remember in a long time.Seller said the same thing. This is in far northeast Georgia.
Post by: Anthony on March 16, 2020, 11:10:22 AM
These "fucking" stationary fronts have been here all winter and spring thus far. Crappiest winter for flying I can remember in a long time.
Almost Summer pattern like through the Winter. Must be man made climate change. The $15 per gallon tax on 100LL will fix it.
Post by: Mr Pou on March 16, 2020, 11:11:17 AM
Seller said the same thing. This is in far northeast Georgia.
METAR: 161753Z 15003KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC009 12/10 A3031 RMK AO2 DZE25 SLP262 P0000 60000 T01220100 10122 20083 58017
TAF:61720Z 1618/1718 16004KT 4SM BR OVC012
TEMPO 1618/1620 1 1/2SM -DZ BR BKN005 OVC010
FM162000 VRB03KT P6SM OVC016
FM170200 VRB03KT 5SM -SHRA BR OVC007
FM171300 00000KT 2SM -SHRA BR OVC005
FM171600 VRB03KT 3SM -SHRA BR SCT005 OVC007
Looks like this for at least another week+
Unless you're instrument rated, it's gonna be a while until you get out.
Post by: nddons on March 16, 2020, 12:29:32 PM
METAR: 161753Z 15003KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC009 12/10 A3031 RMK AO2 DZE25 SLP262 P0000 60000 T01220100 10122 20083 58017I’m still up here in Wisconsin. My Instructor is in Maryland. Lots of moving parts to get to GA, do a final test flight, and fly away. Oh, and the annual is due by 3/31. No pressure.
TAF:61720Z 1618/1718 16004KT 4SM BR OVC012
TEMPO 1618/1620 1 1/2SM -DZ BR BKN005 OVC010
FM162000 VRB03KT P6SM OVC016
FM170200 VRB03KT 5SM -SHRA BR OVC007
FM171300 00000KT 2SM -SHRA BR OVC005
FM171600 VRB03KT 3SM -SHRA BR SCT005 OVC007
Looks like this for at least another week+
Unless you're instrument rated, it's gonna be a while until you get out.
Post by: Rush on March 19, 2020, 05:23:04 AM
Post by: Anthony on March 19, 2020, 06:19:15 AM
I hope you can get er done before we are all on mandatory lockdown with National Guard posted at our front door.
Oh, so THAT'S what the Militia and Second Amendment are for! Got it. Thanks! ;D
Post by: nddons on March 19, 2020, 09:42:58 AM
I hope you can get er done before we are all on mandatory lockdown with National Guard posted at our front door.I’ll tell them I’m seeking social distancing and plan to be at least a mile from another human.
Post by: nddons on March 19, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
Post by: Anthony on March 19, 2020, 12:59:20 PM
Once again another Wx delay. I’ve decided to delay it until the week of April 15. Then I can take a week off, train down there, and take my time flying it solo back to Wisconsin.
Good idea! You won't have any trouble transitioning, but with the new panel, IFR, etc that is wise to do.
You'll also have to practice announcing to whomever, "Too close for missiles, going to guns". Never could figure out to whom or to what Tom Cruise was talking when he was saying all that stuff while maneuvering in a dogfight. :)
Post by: nddons on March 31, 2020, 08:59:06 AM
Post by: Mr Pou on March 31, 2020, 10:11:55 AM
Ok, I get that this is a first world problem, but my instructor doesn’t want to travel to the southeast for my insurance checkout until after Trump’s recommended April 30 date, so it looks like no Navion until May. Frustrating as fuck.
I had a day off last Friday, had an IPC scheduled, but the CFI called back and cancelled as his town's mayor put the city on lock down the night before at midnight. Do you know how hard it's been down this way to combine good weather, a day off, and plane availability? Oh wait, I guess you do...
Post by: Anthony on March 31, 2020, 10:17:56 AM
Ok, I get that this is a first world problem, but my instructor doesn’t want to travel to the southeast for my insurance checkout until after Trump’s recommended April 30 date, so it looks like no Navion until May. Frustrating as fuck.
Still SUCKS. Another effing Month! >:(
Post by: Anthony on April 12, 2020, 12:36:41 PM
https://www.thebaynet.com/articles/0320/small-plane-makes-emergency-landing-at-st-marys-county-airport.html
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on April 12, 2020, 12:47:43 PM
Stan, this will make you (and everyone else) sick.
not fatalities... other than the aircraft.
Post by: Rush on April 12, 2020, 06:30:38 PM
Ok, I get that this is a first world problem, but my instructor doesn’t want to travel to the southeast for my insurance checkout until after Trump’s recommended April 30 date, so it looks like no Navion until May. Frustrating as fuck.
Yeah but don’t underestimate the cumulative effects of too many first world problems. We are all having to give each other amateur haircuts for example while the salon owners and their employees go bust. And on and on and on and on....
Post by: nddons on April 13, 2020, 05:51:01 AM
Stan, this will make you (and everyone else) sick.Navions were designed by North American Aviation (T-6, P-51, B-25, etc.) and are built like brick shithouses. This one will be flying again.
https://www.thebaynet.com/articles/0320/small-plane-makes-emergency-landing-at-st-marys-county-airport.html
The joke is every time a Cirrus pulls a chute a Navion gets an IO-550.
Post by: nddons on April 13, 2020, 05:52:11 AM
Yeah but don’t underestimate the cumulative effects of too many first world problems. We are all having to give each other amateur haircuts for example while the salon owners and their employees go bust. And on and on and on and on....Totally correct.
Post by: nddons on May 05, 2020, 09:22:43 AM
I drive down to Georgia on Friday, and met the seller and instructor at 0800 Saturday morning for the acceptance flight and then training for the checkout. The instructor and I had a nice XC planned back to my old training grounds of south of Charlotte (KEQY, KLKR, KUZA), back to GA for lunch, and then off to a nice grass strip that he knows about. Navions love grass.
The seller suggested I combine the acceptance flight with the training flight (mistake on my part - I should have insisted on a flight with the owner first), so the instructor and I launched on our XC. However, upon takeoff the right main gear wouldn’t lock up in the gear well. There is a thing called the “Navion bump” where if necessary you do a slight negative G pushover to help the gear lock up. It’s not in the manual, but it’s been known for decades. Anyway, even severe negative G pushovers didn’t work. We had to stay over the airport because the gear speed is a low 100 mph, and you get there quickly in a 150 mph airplane with an IO-520 big bore Continental.
We landed and put the plane up on jacks. Literally 5 people, all knowledgeable and experienced Navion people from the airport, were underneath the airplane troubleshooting the problem. I got blisters on my hand from hand pumping the manual hydraulic pump in the cockpit during the 4 hours we spent trying to fix and diagnose it. There was also a hydraulic leak that was found, and a fitting was tightened.
We though that we had resolved it, so after a quick lunch the instructor and I decided that since it was already 1400 we would just stay over the field and do pattern work, and do the XCs on Sunday.
Well, the right gear still wouldn’t lock up, and at some recommendation from the ground we did some kabuki dance by shutting off and immediately pulling on the hydraulic pump while doing a pushover. That actually worked several times. However, it was not right, and I asked the instructor if he’s ever done this in his thousands of hours in Navions, and he said no. I told the instructor that I can’t purchase an non-airworthy airplane stuck in Georgia waiting for it to get properly fixed by a qualified CFI, and he totally agreed, so upon landing I told the seller the deal was off.
I was so pissed off I went back to the hotel to get my shit, and drove all the way home, arriving back in Wisconsin at 0430 Sunday morning. The last 2 hours were rough, but the previous 11 were all running on adrenaline.
Post by: Username on May 05, 2020, 09:30:42 AM
Post by: Anthony on May 05, 2020, 09:42:05 AM
Post by: nddons on May 05, 2020, 09:42:24 AM
Congratulations on your purchase, and condolences on your gear issues. I just sent you a PM with information on someone who may be able to help.Actually I canceled the purchase due to the gear issue. I’m done with that plane. Thanks for the PM.
Post by: nddons on May 05, 2020, 09:48:00 AM
That sucks Stan. Very disappointing as I am sure it was a VERY nice Navion other than the gear issue. Do you think when the owner has the gear fixed it could be a viable option for a purchase for you, or are you just soured on the airplane now? Which is understandable. How was the owner's demeanor on the entire fiasco?The owner was very quiet, and didn’t put up a flight when I canceled it. I think he’s 74 and ready to move on from it.
I would never have him fix it and would only buy it if my guy fixed it, but right now I’m in no mood to go back to him.
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on May 05, 2020, 09:57:11 AM
Post by: Steingar on May 05, 2020, 10:12:10 AM
Post by: nddons on May 05, 2020, 10:30:42 AM
Perhaps you should consider a Mooney. Manual gear doesn't break too often. Just as fast as a Navion, just not as much fuel burn. Doesn't have Navion room inside though. And of course, no canopy, which does lower the cool factor somewhat.Thanks, but I’m 6’3” and a former college defensive tackle, and all that that implies. I sat in a Mooney once and needed a case of Crisco to get me out of it.
Post by: Rush on May 05, 2020, 07:14:28 PM
Post by: Steingar on May 08, 2020, 06:46:33 AM
Thanks, but I’m 6’3” and a former college defensive tackle, and all that that implies. I sat in a Mooney once and needed a case of Crisco to get me out of it.Thought about a Comanche? Mooney speed, but cavernous inside. All that said, nothing whatsoever wrong with a Navion, if you can find the right one. I think your decision not to buy the example we've been discussing was prescient. If at sale there's a squawk that bad I can't imagine what's demons are lurking under the cowlings. I require an airplane to be clean and in good working order at the time of sale. If either of those things isn't met I am always ready to walk away.
Post by: nddons on May 11, 2020, 04:04:39 PM
Thought about a Comanche? Mooney speed, but cavernous inside. All that said, nothing whatsoever wrong with a Navion, if you can find the right one. I think your decision not to buy the example we've been discussing was prescient. If at sale there's a squawk that bad I can't imagine what's demons are lurking under the cowlings. I require an airplane to be clean and in good working order at the time of sale. If either of those things isn't met I am always ready to walk away.I’ve not flown in a Comanche, but I’m in the market for a Warbird, and the Navion works for that (despite only a few hundred that were actually L-17s.). If I were to go to a straight GA airplane it would be a Commander 114. Not super fast, but super comfortable and roomy.
I had a very good pre-buy on the Navion, and my mechanic said it had “good bones.” I had a list of squawks, but no airworthy squawks. The gear locked up on jacks during the pre buy two months ago, but seemed a little week to my mechanic. But not last weekend, when the gear simply would not lock up.
Post by: Lucifer on May 11, 2020, 04:58:46 PM
I’ve not flown in a Comanche, but I’m in the market for a Warbird, and the Navion works for that (despite only a few hundred that were actually L-17s.). If I were to go to a straight GA airplane it would be a Commander 114. Not super fast, but super comfortable and roomy.
I had a very good pre-buy on the Navion, and my mechanic said it had “good bones.” I had a list of squawks, but no airworthy squawks. The gear locked up on jacks during the pre buy two months ago, but seemed a little week to my mechanic. But not last weekend, when the gear simply would not lock up.
Ever looked into a Cessna L19 or a Stinson L5?
Post by: nddons on May 11, 2020, 11:15:43 PM
Ever looked into a Cessna L19 or a Stinson L5?Yea I looked into both. A Birddog being an all metal aircraft interested me, but watch the 1950s Army training films about ground looping those.
A Stinson L-5 is just kind of ugly, and I don’t want the fabric maintenance.
Here’s the Birddog film: https://youtu.be/U3hRFCP40F4
Post by: Anthony on May 12, 2020, 08:32:36 AM
Post by: nddons on June 01, 2020, 09:53:24 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200601/18b103ff5cf9b9b991bee07d4c6481ec.jpg)
Post by: Little Joe on June 10, 2020, 07:10:20 AM
Want a real warbird?
https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/last-airworthy-mig-17-for-sale/
Post by: Anthony on June 10, 2020, 07:17:27 AM
Hey Stan,
Want a real warbird?
https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/last-airworthy-mig-17-for-sale/
Last flying example? Really??? I saw one flown by the Black Diamond Jet Team and Dale Snodgrass at an airshow I attended. I later met him which was pretty cool.
Quote
In July 2011, The Heavy Metal Jet Team announced the addition of one MiG-17 replacing the T-33, which was grounded after maintenance problems.
Almost a year later in October 2011 the team changed the name to its present “Black Diamond Jet Team” and added another MiG-17. Then the team transited to new home base at Lakeland, FL.
Granted it has been several years since I saw these guys. They may no longer even exist anymore. Anyone know?
https://aerobaticteams.net/en/teams/i36/Black-Diamond-Jet-Team.html
Post by: nddons on June 10, 2020, 08:35:40 AM
Last flying example? Really??? I saw one flown by the Black Diamond Jet Team and Dale Snodgrass at an airshow I attended. I later met him which was pretty cool.Yea that article is inaccurate. A guy on the East Coast by the name of Randy Ball flies one.
Granted it has been several years since I saw these guys. They may no longer even exist anymore. Anyone know?
https://aerobaticteams.net/en/teams/i36/Black-Diamond-Jet-Team.html
This is a video of the MiG based in Rockford IL and a Sabre based at my home airport. This was the 2017 CAF Gathering of Warbirds of which I was chairman. Jeff still flies his MiG, but he also picked up an F-5. Jeff and my buddy Paul (F-86 guy) fly airshows under the name MiG Alley Airshows.
So yea, picking up a Navion puts me right in with these so called “Fast Movers.”
https://youtu.be/e6SAz0KJwl4
Post by: Username on June 10, 2020, 09:55:32 AM
Post by: nddons on July 15, 2020, 08:48:01 AM
However, Cessna O-2A intrigue the shit out of me. Love their history. I know they can be Mx hogs, with two of everything, but they are one of the safest twins in the market. Care and feeding of two power plants is a consideration. But it has hard points for rockets, so I’d have that going for me. Good for anti-Antifa work.
Here’s a cool video (though the music is irritating):
https://youtu.be/-GSl-bNl_xk
Post by: Anthony on July 15, 2020, 09:36:21 AM
Post by: nddons on July 15, 2020, 09:42:30 AM
I'd get an O-1 over an O-2. I can't imagine maintaining a Skymaster.Doesn’t fit my mission as a cross country machine like the Navion or O-2. Plus, landing that sob with its spring steel landing gear would be an adventure every time.
Post by: Username on July 15, 2020, 10:09:08 AM
Yes, fuel is more expensive feeding two engines. That is minor compared to maintaining two engines and all the associated features of a complex twin. It's certainly cool, but eventually the cost of ownership turned me around. My cost spreadsheet came out to $33k a year for 100 hours. I think that was way low. I couldn't see spending that much for a really really cool toy. Cost of getting into a 337 is attractive. And for a very good reason.
As an aside, I looked at a 336 as a way of lowering maintenance costs. Fixed-gear Skymaster. Rare and the rear engine has some issues. And insurance wasn't cheaper.
Post by: nddons on July 15, 2020, 11:37:14 AM
My mission for a long time was from Wisconsin to Columbus, OH. The choices were around Chicago, up around the UP, or over Lake Michigan. For all choices, it seemed that the Skymaster was the best plane for the job. Inline thrust, airstair, "flys like a big 182", and all that. I did a bunch of research. Most of the conventional wisdom turned out to be myths. But what finally got me off the Skymaster train was insurance. Regardless of the inline feature, it's still a complex twin and the insurance companies treat it as such. Cost is going up and fewer companies are willing to sell insurance to a relatively low time ( < 1000 hr) pilot.That’s a good point on insurance and one I haven’t gone down yet. Just exploring the type at this point.
Yes, fuel is more expensive feeding two engines. That is minor compared to maintaining two engines and all the associated features of a complex twin. It's certainly cool, but eventually the cost of ownership turned me around. My cost spreadsheet came out to $33k a year for 100 hours. I think that was way low. I couldn't see spending that much for a really really cool toy. Cost of getting into a 337 is attractive. And for a very good reason.
As an aside, I looked at a 336 as a way of lowering maintenance costs. Fixed-gear Skymaster. Rare and the rear engine has some issues. And insurance wasn't cheaper.
I won’t go over Lake Michigan in a single, but I can always go around.
Post by: Anthony on July 15, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
That’s a good point on insurance and one I haven’t gone down yet. Just exploring the type at this point.
Keep it to the exploration phase. I haven't seen a 337 at an airport in years. I used to see them once in a while maybe fifteen year ago or longer. There is a reason for that. I never see them now.
Post by: nddons on July 15, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Keep it to the exploration phase. I haven't seen a 337 at an airport in years. I used to see them once in a while maybe fifteen year ago or longer. There is a reason for that. I never see them now.I subscribe to Aviation Consumer. They had a good and fair article on the Skymaster in January 2019.
https://www.aviationconsumer.com/used-aircraft-guide/cessna-skymaster/
Post by: Lucifer on July 15, 2020, 04:55:56 PM
Post by: Lucifer on July 15, 2020, 04:56:20 PM
Post by: Lucifer on July 15, 2020, 04:56:43 PM
Post by: Lucifer on July 15, 2020, 04:57:06 PM
Post by: Anthony on July 18, 2020, 06:11:11 AM
(http://www.gadgetking.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Cri-Cri-Worlds-Smallest-Twin-Engine-Plane-5-590x400.jpg)
(http://www.gadgetking.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Cri-Cri-Worlds-Smallest-Twin-Engine-Plane-7-590x394.jpg)
Post by: Little Joe on July 18, 2020, 06:56:14 AM
Post by: Lucifer on July 18, 2020, 06:58:52 AM
Why would anyone get inside of a toy airplane and actually fly it?
Define toy airplane.
Post by: Anthony on July 18, 2020, 08:30:13 AM
Why would anyone get inside of a toy airplane and actually fly it?
I thought the same thing, but evidently they fly ok and are pretty "safe". The guy got into the damn thing used a ROPE pull starter to start each engine then flew off into the sunset. Unreal.
(Sorry for the thread drift Stan. All my fault.)
Post by: Little Joe on July 18, 2020, 10:42:37 AM
Define toy airplane.And YOU accused ME of not having a sense of humor? It was damn joke.
Post by: Lucifer on July 18, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
And YOU accused ME of not having a sense of humor? It was damn joke.
No, just asked for clarification. I didn’t understand your point.
Post by: Anthony on July 18, 2020, 11:29:47 AM
I think I'd be too skeered to get in one.
Post by: Username on August 03, 2020, 06:21:11 AM
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/8/2/21351789/small-plane-crashes-in-southern-utah-killing-2
Post by: nddons on August 03, 2020, 07:27:56 AM
Are you OK? There was a Navion down in UtahI’m fine. I don’t have my Navion yet. Walked away from one on May 2 when I was supposed to take delivery.
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/8/2/21351789/small-plane-crashes-in-southern-utah-killing-2
This sounds like a stupid pilot trick. It’s one thing to hit a 1,000’+ tower. It’s another to hit a 300’ tower.
Post by: nddons on December 11, 2020, 09:31:10 AM
I have three basic requirements for my Navion search, and was willing to take two out of three, figuring I could pay for the third requirement separately if the price was right.
My requirements are (1) a big bore Continental (IO-470, 520, or 550), (2) a workable IFR panel, and (3) military livery.
This one is two out of three. It has an E-225 engine, but only 350 hours SMOH.
My thought process is to accept the smaller engine, fly it for a few years, and then consider an upgrade at some point.
Post by: Lucifer on December 13, 2020, 07:31:26 PM
There’s another Navion in play. Going to see it on Monday.
I have three basic requirements for my Navion search, and was willing to take two out of three, figuring I could pay for the third requirement separately if the price was right.
My requirements are (1) a big bore Continental (IO-470, 520, or 550), (2) a workable IFR panel, and (3) military livery.
This one is two out of three. It has an E-225 engine, but only 350 hours SMOH.
My thought process is to accept the smaller engine, fly it for a few years, and then consider an upgrade at some point.
Does the E225 have a pressure carburetor? If so, they are painfully expensive to repair or replace. Or is the version on this plane a fuel injection?
Also, which prop does it have? Time since prop overhaul?
Post by: Anthony on December 14, 2020, 02:12:26 AM
Post by: nddons on December 14, 2020, 04:14:05 AM
Does the E225 have a pressure carburetor? If so, they are painfully expensive to repair or replace. Or is the version on this plane a fuel injection?Good questions on both of those. Not sure about the pressure carb, but I’ll find out.
Also, which prop does it have? Time since prop overhaul?
The prop has an AD, but not the annual AD like the bladder prop I believe. More to come on that.
Sounds like you’ve been around this power plant before. Thanks.
Post by: nddons on December 14, 2020, 04:18:00 AM
What's the HP on the E225?225 HP. The problem with that engine isn’t the HP as much as it’s no longer supported by Continental, so overhauls would be expensive.
The IO-520 and 550 are current production engines. They’re used on Bonanzas and Cirrus. They say ever time a Cirrus pops a chute, a Navion gets an engine.
Not sure about the Continental support for the IO-470-H, but that’s a common engine for a Navion too.
Post by: Lucifer on December 14, 2020, 06:31:40 AM
225 HP. The problem with that engine isn’t the HP as much as it’s no longer supported by Continental, so overhauls would be expensive.
The IO-520 and 550 are current production engines. They’re used on Bonanzas and Cirrus. They say ever time a Cirrus pops a chute, a Navion gets an engine.
Not sure about the Continental support for the IO-470-H, but that’s a common engine for a Navion too.
My personal preference is the O-470. Bulletproof engines. The 470 is the modern version of the E225.
Post by: Anthony on December 14, 2020, 07:49:44 AM
My personal preference is the O-470. Bulletproof engines. The 470 is the modern version of the E225.
I'll take the IO-550 if going Continental.
Post by: Lucifer on December 14, 2020, 08:02:35 AM
I'll take the IO-550 if going Continental.
It's not a bad engine, but they are pricey. It boils down to how much someone is willing to pay. The O470's are plentiful and well proven reliable and can be obtained for less.
Again, individual decision as either one will get the job done. The E225 if maintained will also give a long service.
Post by: Username on December 14, 2020, 11:50:26 AM
Do check on insurance. Retract insurance is going up, and the less-common aircraft insurance market is shrinking. Be prepared for a little sticker shock when it comes time to get insurance.
Good luck with your adventure!!! And send pictures. Lots of pictures!
Post by: nddons on December 22, 2020, 04:31:16 PM
Post by: Anthony on December 23, 2020, 02:12:13 AM
Purchase contract signed. Deposit sent. Found a Navion guy to do the pre-buy. Seller will fly it to Wisconsin. Waiting on title search and insurance quote. Hangar found. Trying not to get too excited.
Stan, that's fantastic. Keeping fingers crossed.
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on December 23, 2020, 06:15:56 AM
Post by: nddons on December 23, 2020, 06:35:16 AM
So the invasion stripes mean something to me so I’m keeping them.
http://368thfightergroup.com/368-photos-a3-then-now.html
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on December 23, 2020, 07:08:21 AM
So the invasion stripes mean something to me so I’m keeping them.
an excellent reason...
Post by: Anthony on January 03, 2021, 05:12:38 AM
Post by: nddons on January 04, 2021, 12:17:44 AM
Any news Stan? Inquiring minds want to know. ;DExtensive 2-day pre-buy went very well. Waiting for the 3-ring binder from the A&P, but only squawk was someone countersunk flathead screws into two hydraulic actuator access panels. Navions have a stressed skin wing, and A&P felt they were not satisfactory. Seller found NOS panels and proper hardware and they are being shipped directly to me to be installed at next annual. Compressions were between 62 and 74.
Post by: Anthony on January 04, 2021, 06:59:51 AM
Extensive 2-day pre-buy went very well. Waiting for the 3-ring binder from the A&P, but only squawk was someone countersunk flathead screws into two hydraulic actuator access panels. Navions have a stressed skin wing, and A&P felt they were not satisfactory. Seller found NOS panels and proper hardware and they are being shipped directly to me to be installed at next annual. Compressions were between 62 and 74.
Sounds like this one is going to be yours. Don't want to jinx it. Wow, I am very happy for you Stan.
Post by: Bamaflyer on January 05, 2021, 11:32:05 AM
Post by: Lucifer on January 05, 2021, 11:39:51 AM
Did flyingron on POA share his wealth of knowledge with you? 😏😎
The "Sultan of Suck"?
Post by: nddons on January 05, 2021, 11:40:37 AM
Did flyingron on POA share his wealth of knowledge with you?Negative. I haven’t been on POA for 4 years or more. However there are a ton of Navion resources out there, and Navion people willing to help out. It’s quite the cooperative community.
Post by: Lucifer on January 05, 2021, 11:49:55 AM
Post by: nddons on January 05, 2021, 01:40:15 PM
Is yours a North American or a Ryan?1949 Ryan A model.
Post by: Anthony on January 05, 2021, 01:42:07 PM
1949 Ryan A model.
The same outfit that built Lindbergh's plane, right? San Diego?
Post by: nddons on January 05, 2021, 03:54:08 PM
The same outfit that built Lindbergh's plane, right? San Diego?Affirmative! Here’s the data plate on the one that fell through last May:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210105/7deb6be240774e66dfefb86b761aa67e.jpg)
Post by: nddons on January 10, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210110/603afa972612660051d38650261cc597.jpg)
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on January 10, 2021, 11:00:27 AM
Post by: Lucifer on January 10, 2021, 11:00:56 AM
Post by: Anthony on January 10, 2021, 11:34:18 AM
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on January 10, 2021, 01:04:56 PM
Post by: Little Joe on January 10, 2021, 01:36:23 PM
Are those 3 women your daughters? Which one is the vet?
Post by: Rush on January 10, 2021, 02:20:21 PM
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on January 10, 2021, 06:59:18 PM
Post by: nddons on January 10, 2021, 09:48:55 PM
Cool Stan.Well my wife would be happy with you!
Are those 3 women your daughters? Which one is the vet?
No. From left to right:
Seller, daughter (and vet), me, my wife, and seller. They did most of the trip in MVFR weather. Averaged 138 mph at 11.7 gph.
Post by: Anthony on January 11, 2021, 03:32:19 AM
Post by: nddons on January 11, 2021, 05:23:38 AM
That bird looks in great shape. Pics of the panel and interior a possibility?Sure. The panel will be redone at some point. I want to fly it for a while while deciding what I want. Interior is very nice. Also has a baggage door, which was a factory option.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210111/1264629db82fe30745cb2053d7565d42.jpeg)
Post by: Bamaflyer on January 11, 2021, 10:09:04 AM
Post by: nddons on February 28, 2021, 02:38:54 PM
This is a Continental E-225-4 engine with a pressure carburetor. Apparently the pressure carb has an “enrichment valve” that with a wide open throttle, it send more gas to the cylinders which help keep it cool. If you back off even 1/2” on the throttle, that valve closes, so even if you’re thinking you’re keeping it cool by reducing MP, you’re actually hurting the cooling process. Seems counter intuitive.
In the Lycoming in the Cutlass that I flew, I was admonished to never go over square, and always reduce throttle before reducing RPM. That line of thinking is apparently out the window when talking about big bore Continentals.
According to the seller, this Continental can be flown over square all day long.
Apparently my HP training was lacking a little.
So the proper way to fly this is to leave WOT until altitude, adjusting prop as necessary, and then once at altitude, lean it out. This prop is dynamically balance to perform best at 2300 rpm. In fact, Lew Gage (Bonanza guru and Continental guru) recommends leaving WOT throughout the flight regime until decent.
Lots to learn.
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on February 28, 2021, 02:51:16 PM
Good luck with it.
Post by: Little Joe on February 28, 2021, 04:23:22 PM
I did my insurance checkout yesterday and can now start flying my Navion. I had some high CHTs, but learned from a discussion with the seller that I was using the wrong technique to keep the cylinders cool.Yeah, that surprised me in my C-172 many years ago.
This is a Continental E-225-4 engine with a pressure carburetor. Apparently the pressure carb has an “enrichment valve” that with a wide open throttle, it send more gas to the cylinders which help keep it cool. If you back off even 1/2” on the throttle, that valve closes, so even if you’re thinking you’re keeping it cool by reducing MP, you’re actually hurting the cooling process. Seems counter intuitive.
Quote
In the Lycoming in the Cutlass that I flew, I was admonished to never go over square, and always reduce throttle before reducing RPM. That line of thinking is apparently out the window when talking about big bore Continentals.Yes again.
According to the seller, this Continental can be flown over square all day long.
Here's a pretty good synposis of the over-square fallacy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1fmNFWNHD4&feature=youtu.be
Apparently my HP training was lacking a little.
Quote
So the proper way to fly this is to leave WOT until altitude, adjusting prop as necessary, and then once at altitude, lean it out. This prop is dynamically balance to perform best at 2300 rpm. In fact, Lew Gage (Bonanza guru and Continental guru) recommends leaving WOT throughout the flight regime until decent.If Lew said it (and I know he did), you can bank on it. I challenged him on-line one time. I lost that argument, but developed a huge respect for the man.
Lots to learn.
Post by: Username on February 28, 2021, 04:58:00 PM
Post by: Anthony on February 28, 2021, 05:05:15 PM
Post by: nddons on February 28, 2021, 05:32:28 PM
Yeah, that surprised me in my C-172 many years ago.Great stuff Joe. Thanks. I’m going to listen to that and start DuckDuckGoing (much longer and more awkward than the verb Google) this Lew guy.
Yes again.
Here's a pretty good synposis of the over-square fallacy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1fmNFWNHD4&feature=youtu.be
Apparently my HP training was lacking a little.
If Lew said it (and I know he did), you can bank on it. I challenged him on-line one time. I lost that argument, but developed a huge respect for the man.
Post by: Little Joe on February 28, 2021, 05:56:25 PM
https://american-bonanza-society.square.site/product/e-series-bonanzas-flying-owning-and-maintaining-a-classic/54?cs=true&cst=custom
Post by: Rush on February 28, 2021, 06:46:30 PM
Great stuff Joe. Thanks. I’m going to listen to that and start DuckDuckGoing (much longer and more awkward than the verb Google) this Lew guy.
DuckDuckGo or startpage ftw. I hardly ever use the Google engine anymore.
Post by: nddons on February 28, 2021, 09:42:28 PM
DuckDuckGo or startpage ftw. I hardly ever use the Google engine anymore.
I've never used startpage ftw, but I do use Bing. I never use the google on the line.
Post by: Jim Logajan on February 28, 2021, 10:30:09 PM
DuckDuckGo or startpage ftw. I hardly ever use the Google engine anymore.
Hadn’t heard of startpage.com. Looks “ok” from a privacy standpoint, but they pay to use google’s search engine, so google still makes money from a search via startpage. Also, I presume you still would be subject to google’s search result filters and prioritization algorithms.
Post by: Rush on March 03, 2021, 06:15:40 AM
Hadn’t heard of startpage.com. Looks “ok” from a privacy standpoint, but they pay to use google’s search engine, so google still makes money from a search via startpage. Also, I presume you still would be subject to google’s search result filters and prioritization algorithms.
Yeah, I’ve been using startpage for years but I’m migrating more to DuckDuckGo now. It being Tor’s default search engine is probably a good endorsement.
Post by: Rush on March 03, 2021, 06:23:00 AM
I've never used startpage ftw, but I do use Bing. I never use the google on the line.
Not startpage ftw but just startpage. “Ftw” is gamer terminology, “for the win”. I meant using either DuckDuckGo or startpage will do you better than using Google. Sorry about that. Sometimes I slip into gamer speak.
Actually I should be capitalizing startpage but my automatic caps isn’t doing it like it’s doing DuckDuckGo and Google. Ha! See, it did it again.
Post by: nddons on March 03, 2021, 08:18:15 AM
Not startpage ftw but just startpage. “Ftw” is gamer terminology, “for the win”. I meant using either DuckDuckGo or startpage will do you better than using Google. Sorry about that. Sometimes I slip into gamer speak.When I saw your picture on POA (when PS shut down) I knew we had a troublemaker here.
Actually I should be capitalizing startpage but my automatic caps isn’t doing it like it’s doing DuckDuckGo and Google. Ha! See, it did it again.
Post by: Anthony on March 28, 2021, 09:55:37 AM
Or does only your hairdresser know for sure? ;D
Calgon Take me away!
Ancient Chinese Secret......
Stronger than DIRT!
Post by: nddons on March 28, 2021, 12:36:50 PM
Alright Stan, where are the pictures, flying stories, performance notes, KTAS, Fuel Burn, etc.???All right all right! It is tax season after all. But I did my insurance checkout with a Navion-experienced instructor; finally got into my own hangar; finally got a tug to move it. I’ve flown solo a few times, and on Friday I flew it to Burlington, WI for its first annual. My A&P is president of the Midwest Navioneers, and I’m fortunate to have such an expert 21nm away.
Or does only your hairdresser know for sure? ;D
Calgon Take me away!
Ancient Chinese Secret......
Stronger than DIRT!
Had a high CHT issue on my insurance checkout, and I was concerned. However speaking to the seller, he said with the E-225 engine with a pressure carburetor you need to fly it with WOT because theirs a valve in the carb that sends more fuel to the Cylinders to keep them cool. I’m a skeptic so did my research and damned, he’s right. I’ve read some articles from some Bonanza guy who knows the engine, and also watched some videos with Mike Bush who basically said the same thing.
Still, my A&P will give it a good looking over.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210328/1f024fe0a6420c2fc230a87cd3e91754.jpg)
My hangar. Still need a beer fridge.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210328/f89721e3379e9e3d854106c6b32e568c.jpg)
In the A&P’s hangar on Friday.
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on March 28, 2021, 12:38:10 PM
Post by: nddons on March 28, 2021, 12:46:06 PM
1. Installing shoulder harnesses. Stock Navions only had lap belts.
2. Installing a screw-on oil filter. Currently just has an oil screen.
3. Removing vernier throttle and installing throttle with a friction lock. I couldn’t get used to twisting the throttle for fine tuning.
4. Installing connector to battery for a 12V battery minder.
Etc. No big ticket items yet; I thought let’s see how this first one goes.
Once I get a good sign off on the engine, I’m going to fly with my A&P and really learn engine management with this big bore Continental. He soloed in his dad’s Navion at age 16 so he knows them well.
Then I’m going to fly the hell out of it.
Someone took my picture after my first solo in my Navion.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210328/4f783886a5a0b51755ffc5c63a4177ff.jpg)
Post by: Username on March 28, 2021, 12:47:28 PM
Post by: Username on March 28, 2021, 12:51:38 PM
Post by: nddons on March 28, 2021, 01:22:12 PM
Ah... what brand is your spin-on oil filter adapter? There's been some ADs on some of them due to the adapter unscrewing from the engine causing a massive loss of oil. I asked my A&P about adding a filter to my plane. He said that my engine has lived 70 years with just an oil screen so it's not worth the bother. I agreed with him, but I still have the thought in the back of my mind that a filter would be better. Maybe someday. But do be careful and check the ADs.I don’t know what brand. There are also ones mounted to the engine, and remote ones mounted to the firewall I believe. He’s going to look into it and get back to me.
You’re right, these are relics of engines. However, I want to avoid having to do an overhaul during my ownership, and certainly a screw on filter will pick up more particulates than a screen. I also can move from 25 hours between oil changes to 50 hours.
I’m also starting oil analysis starting with this annual.
Post by: Anthony on March 28, 2021, 01:23:34 PM
Post by: nddons on March 28, 2021, 01:28:31 PM
Beautiful aircraft! But I'm really jealous of your insulated hangar. That's AMAZING!Thanks. These are crappy county hangars, but I got lucky that this one was insulated and heated. Only 3 out of 10 hangars have heat.
We have quite an eclectic group on our row of 5 hangars. One guy on the end next to me has a South African T-6 (he’s also my AME), a Thorpe, and a Rose Parakeet in his hangar. Two doors down a guy just built a Velocity and is doing his test flights right now. He did that in an uninsulated and unheated hangar. I don’t envy him. I got lucky. Otherwise I’d be installing a Reif heater on the Navion.
Post by: nddons on March 28, 2021, 01:29:26 PM
That's great stuff Stan. Glad to see you are and will be flying the heck out of it! Very cool.Thanks Anthony. After 15 years as a renter, it is so cool to own my own.
Post by: Lucifer on March 28, 2021, 01:29:55 PM
Easier to change, and typically will keep the oil cooler.
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on March 28, 2021, 06:18:24 PM
Post by: Rush on March 29, 2021, 09:32:09 AM
Thanks Anthony. After 15 years as a renter, it is so cool to own my own.
It really is, you’re gonna love it. Nothing like having everything the same way you left it next time you fly. (Absent the odd wasp nest ;) ) And it always being available when you want to go and being able to leave your stuff in it, and knowing the maintenance history and all the quirks, and always knowing your tail number when you talk to ATC, and probably more stuff I can’t think of off hand.
Post by: Anthony on March 29, 2021, 09:39:31 AM
It really is, you’re gonna love it. Nothing like having everything the same way you left it next time you fly. (Absent the odd wasp nest ;) ) And it always being available when you want to go and being able to leave your stuff in it, and knowing the maintenance history and all the quirks, and always knowing your tail number when you talk to ATC, and probably more stuff I can’t think of off hand.
You can go to the airport not knowing where you're going to fly and not worry about when you'll get back! Priceless!
Post by: Username on March 29, 2021, 11:10:12 AM
You can go to the airport not knowing where you're going to fly and not worry about when you'll get back! Priceless!This!! I can go to the airport and if the weather isn't great (or even if it is) I can putter around the hangar and really get to know my airplane. I can head out somewhere or nowhere. Everything is just as I left it. Being really familiar with it lets you know when something is just a little "off" that may mean something is headed toward trouble. It may not be the fastest or carry the most or do the most stuff. But it's MINE and I love it.
Last flight I noticed that the rudder pedals were feeling a little off. A little mushier on the ground than I remembered. Some investigation revealed that something in the tailwheel steering was wearing out and was failing. No way would I have found that if I was renting, turning it in with someone else hovering waiting to take the plane. On the other hand, I had to get it fixed myself. I couldn't just note it on the squawk sheet and have someone else take care of it. But then I got to learn a huge amount about tailwheel steering internals as I took it apart under the A&P's supervision.
Aircraft ownership. Welcome to the fun!
Post by: Steingar on March 29, 2021, 12:57:49 PM
GUMPS:
Get the gear down
Undercarriage down
Make certain the gear is down!
Put your hand on the gear switch and make certain it's down!
Secure the gear down!
Post by: Lucifer on March 29, 2021, 01:30:20 PM
Post by: nddons on March 29, 2021, 02:03:10 PM
The hangar and the airplane are gorgeous! Sorry not jealous of the airplane, Navions just aren't my thing. But that hanger is to die for! Good luck, and don't forget to put the gear down.I like that twist on GUMPs. The gear speed is a very low 100 mph, so it’s not like you can drop the gear 5 miles out and drag it in. So there’s a dance between getting close to TPA and then slowing to get below 100 mph.
GUMPS:
Get the gear down
Undercarriage down
Make certain the gear is down!
Put your hand on the gear switch and make certain it's down!
Secure the gear down!
I got lucky on the hangar. The only downside is the floor is asphalt, not concrete, so any oil stain just stays there and can’t really be cleaned off.
Post by: Rush on March 31, 2021, 06:20:37 AM
Pick a point on final ( I used 500" AFE) and check "Final, gear down" and get in the habit of doing a gear check. I would always verbalize it as well.
Bump in the butt, gear is up.
Three in the green, gear in the mirror.
Post by: Anthony on March 31, 2021, 05:21:55 PM
Post by: nddons on April 01, 2021, 12:26:02 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210401/5a8e9f49e653fa4cb1536a84b85824d0.jpg)
Post by: Anthony on April 01, 2021, 01:21:47 PM
I’m checking with my A&P to see how much this mod is. Hoping to get it done while it’s in for it’s annual this week.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210401/5a8e9f49e653fa4cb1536a84b85824d0.jpg)
You also want the 20mm cannon mod. For when the bombs are gone or for those pesky 109's.
Post by: nddons on April 01, 2021, 02:01:04 PM
You also want the 20mm cannon mod. For when the bombs are gone or for those pesky 109's.(https://media4.giphy.com/media/VEsfbW0pBu145PPhOi/giphy.gif)
Post by: nddons on June 02, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Post by: Lucifer on June 02, 2021, 03:21:47 PM
Fuuuuuuck. A&P found a cracked #2 cylinder today.
Welcome to ownership.
Shouldn’t be a big deal. Gonna replace or repair?
Post by: Username on June 02, 2021, 03:25:35 PM
Post by: nddons on June 02, 2021, 05:02:05 PM
Welcome to ownership.Replace. He’s calling a very good engine shop tomorrow. It’s cracked 3/4 around the barrel.
Shouldn’t be a big deal. Gonna replace or repair?
I look forward to the time that I can actually enjoy this ownership thing.
Post by: nddons on June 02, 2021, 05:03:25 PM
You might look into savvyaviation.com. I subscribe to their breakdown and Q&A service. Really useful when you want a second opinion on something. This seems pretty straightforward, but they may give you some other things to look at while you're at it. I think their service is well worth it. Mike Busch wrote the book (actually several) on engines and their maintenance.I might do this after making it through the first annual. I’ve read some excellent articles from him.
Post by: Lucifer on June 02, 2021, 05:08:57 PM
Replace. He’s calling a very good engine shop tomorrow. It’s cracked 3/4 around the barrel.
I look forward to the time that I can actually enjoy this ownership thing.
You typically spend the first year working out the problems from the previous owner(s). After that it usually levels out.
Post by: Mr Pou on June 03, 2021, 04:39:50 AM
You typically spend the first year working out the problems from the previous owner(s). After that it usually levels out.
We spent about 10% of the purchase price in the first year to get the bird up to snuff, since then, she's been a very solid bird. But, we also pretty much do everything that is recommended at each annual. I can't even remember a time me or a partner has had to scrub a flight due to MX issues.
Post by: Rush on June 03, 2021, 06:02:11 AM
Post by: Steingar on June 03, 2021, 07:27:38 AM