PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: President-Elect Bob Noel on May 21, 2020, 05:08:49 PM
-
hmmmm
The study "Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population" shows how much better real masks are than home-made masks.
I reread the study this evening and noticed this (at the end)
"A recent analysis of the 1918 epidemic, noted that cities where strict interventions were implemented early on to prevent transmission, were overall worse-off than cities where some degree of transmission occurred early on [16]. Given the need for the population to acquire sufficient natural immunity over time, it can not be excluded that the amount of protection conferred by home made masks might sufficiently reduce viral exposure to impact on transmission during the early waves, while allowing people enough exposure to start mounting an efficient immune response."
My comment: doesn't that sound suspiciously like: make people use homemade masks precisely because they aren't as good as real masks, which will increase the number of people exposed leading to more immunity earlier.
A lot of people go on and on and on and on about masks slowly (or stopping) the spread of COVID-19. Are they unwittingly requiring/encouraging behavior that will help, but not in the manner they think?
oh, btw, both this study and the study it referenced include the obligatory more-study-is-needed claim.
-
Good catch!
-
oh, btw, both this study and the study it referenced include the obligatory more-study-is-needed claim.
My wife and I talk about that every time we get back from a medical conference.
This is the mindset that keeps perpetual research funding going.
We do not know all of the answers until the money runs out!
-
Masks do one thing really well. They stop you from transmitting the virus if you're asymptomatic. Not all homemade masks are equal. Mrs. Steingar made ones that were two layers fo cloth sandwiching a pocket into which you can insert a hepa filter or coffee filter. Probably not as good as an R95, but pretty damn close.
-
Masks do one thing really well. They stop you from transmitting the virus if you're asymptomatic. Not all homemade masks are equal. Mrs. Steingar made ones that were two layers fo cloth sandwiching a pocket into which you can insert a hepa filter or coffee filter. Probably not as good as an R95, but pretty damn close.
And where is your source of information wrt the capabilities of a homemade mask and the R95?
-
Masks do one thing really well. They stop you from transmitting the virus if you're asymptomatic. Not all homemade masks are equal. Mrs. Steingar made ones that were two layers fo cloth sandwiching a pocket into which you can insert a hepa filter or coffee filter. Probably not as good as an R95, but pretty damn close.
Totally false and very bad information.
-
And where is your source of information wrt the capabilities of a homemade mask and the R95?
The fibre density of commercially made masks is freely available. The density of the home brew ones is based off an analysis I did years ago of some fabric Mrs. Steingar was using for something. I kinda kludged the coffee filters, just a wild guess estimate based on size and weight.
All that said, the R95's are single use, and decline in effectiveness with prolonged wear. Mrs. Steingar's masks are designed to be washed and reworn, the coffee filter is replaceable. Neat little things, actually. I hate wearing them, they set off my allergies and fog up my glasses. But unlike you guys, I understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
-
Totally false and very bad information.
Why do you think surgeons mask up when they do operations? Masks, properly worn, stop you from transmitting pathogens. That's what they're really there for. They're really not as good at preventing you from getting pathogens.
The properly worn thing is a big one. I can't tell you how many people I've seen wearing masks so their nostrils aren't covered, which means the mask isn't doing diddily squat.
-
Why do you think surgeons mask up when they do operations? Masks, properly worn, stop you from transmitting pathogens. That's what they're really there for. They're really not as good at preventing you from getting pathogens.
The properly worn thing is a big one. I can't tell you how many people I've seen wearing masks so their nostrils aren't covered, which means the mask isn't doing diddily squat.
In other words, you're just making shit up again.
I am certified in PPE and have to take annual training in, as well as annual mask fittings. Also just finished my blood borne pathogen training as well (annual requirement)
Thanks for demonstrating once again what a fraud you are.
-
Even the mask maker know it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200522/432e9d1b441989c67bf38cd936d19a70.jpg)
-
Why do you think surgeons mask up when they do operations? Masks, properly worn, stop you from transmitting pathogens. That's what they're really there for. They're really not as good at preventing you from getting pathogens.
The properly worn thing is a big one. I can't tell you how many people I've seen wearing masks so their nostrils aren't covered, which means the mask isn't doing diddily squat.
Sure, sugeons wear masks to help prevent transmissions of pathogens, But . . .
They also wear surgical smocks
And gloves (after thoroughly scrubbing their hands before using proscribed methods of donning said gloves,
And a hair net/covering.
And if they need to scratch their nose or eyes, the have a nurse do it with a sterile device which is then put in the scrub sink.
Then they properly remove masks, gloves harinets and smocks for sterilization prior to next use, or they discard them. Even in our veterinary hospital we put any potentially contaminated items in bio-hazard containers for disposal.
I wonder how many of those steps you and Mrs. Steingar take when using your masks to go to Sams. I think masks can be a big help if worn and handled properly. Otherwise they are like sitting on a chair with 3 legs missing.
-
But unlike you guys, I understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
Name one other poster on this forum that doesn't understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
And back up why you make the claim.
Name one.
-
Name one other poster on this forum that doesn't understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
And back up why you make the claim.
Name one.
No
No
No...
Liberals Never back up their lies, because they are babbling lies that are politically acceptable.
Now,liberals are under no obligation to pretend to care about the sexual assault against women because....
Wait for it...
Getting rid of President a Donald Trump (not hilary fucking clinton) is much more important than protecting women from sexual abuse.
How very liberal of them...
-
The fibre density of commercially made masks is freely available. The density of the home brew ones is based off an analysis I did years ago of some fabric Mrs. Steingar was using for something. I kinda kludged the coffee filters, just a wild guess estimate based on size and weight.
All that said, the R95's are single use, and decline in effectiveness with prolonged wear. Mrs. Steingar's masks are designed to be washed and reworn, the coffee filter is replaceable. Neat little things, actually. I hate wearing them, they set off my allergies and fog up my glasses. But unlike you guys, I understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
The study "Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population" shows how much better real masks are than home-made masks.
But, you've looked at fiber densitities. Of course! We have to wonder why the authors of the study referenced above didn't simply look at fiber densitities. Instead, they wasted so much time doing actual experimentation to look at actual performance of masks.
If only they had been wise enough to consult you.. they could have saved so much effort.
-
Masks do one thing really well. They stop you from transmitting the virus if you're asymptomatic. Not all homemade masks are equal. Mrs. Steingar made ones that were two layers fo cloth sandwiching a pocket into which you can insert a hepa filter or coffee filter. Probably not as good as an R95, but pretty damn close.
Wow, I hope you aren’t widely spreading this information. Hepa filters contain microscopic glass fibers, which aren’t the kind of thing you want to be breathing into your lungs by having them in front of your mouth and nose.
How many people have you put in mortal risk by recommending hepa filters in cloth face masks?
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scarves-hepa-filters-kind-face-covering-best-bet/story?id=70058603
-
Wow, I hope you aren’t widely spreading this information. Hepa filters contain microscopic glass fibers, which aren’t the kind of thing you want to be breathing into your lungs by having them in front of your mouth and nose.
How many people have you put in mortal risk by recommending hepa filters in cloth face masks?
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scarves-hepa-filters-kind-face-covering-best-bet/story?id=70058603
I didn't know that about HEPA filters. My wife made us several masks with a pocket for an insert. She got a couple feet of surgical drape material from the clinic and cut it up to use as filters. They seem to work really well. It is cheap (relatively) and is designed to prevent infection and to be placed over a patient's body.
-
... But unlike you guys, I understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
Come on professor. You claim to have more stones than the rest of us...
Name one other poster on this forum that doesn't understand the importance of not spreading a potentially lethal virus.
And back up why you make the claim.
Name one.
-
Filtration size of coffee filter: 20 microns
Filtration size of N95 masks: 0.1-0.3 microns
Size of SARS-CoV-2: 0.12 microns
Conclusion: coffee filters are an ineffective filtration system against the virus. Maybe better than nothing, but the virus is going through a coffee filter.
I have read research that surgical masks are fairly effective for controlling exhaling the virus. However surgical masks are 5 microns in filter size, still 1/4th the size of coffee filters.
Fitted n95 masks are the only real answer.
-
https://www.kpcnews.com/covid-19/article_f9bda4c8-adac-5d70-aa65-1d81dc5e8604.html
The drape masks, she said, are similar to an N-95 and are totally made with materials on hand.
“I didn’t create the idea, but I did come up with our pattern,” Dalton said.
My wife came up with the idea of using surgical drape material as filter inserts the day we we returned from South America on March 10. I don't know if she was the first but she came up with the idea when we were discussing various other materials, like coffee filters, various fabrics she had on hand and even vacuum cleaner bags.
-
All of this focus on preventing the spread of the virus when the real question is: should we be preventing it? The alleged answer when all this began was, “only to slow the spread enough to avoid overwhelming hospital facilities.”
That’s no longer a concern. Somehow that has morphed into, “we need to slow the spread as much as possible.”
Follow the logic of that. Delaying the spread means delaying herd immunity, which will increase the chance of a devastating second wave when the weather turns cold again.
The correct approach is to use masks only when you are caring for the elderly and vulnerable, but not when you are going about the community. The young and healthy should all be social un-distancing as much as possible so a majority of people build antibodies to it well before the next flu season.
-
All of this focus on preventing the spread of the virus when the real question is: should we be preventing it? The alleged answer when all this began was, “only to slow the spread enough to avoid overwhelming hospital facilities.”
That’s no longer a concern. Somehow that has morphed into, “we need to slow the spread as much as possible.”
Dr Bruce, in a rare appearance on the other board, stated that had we simply done NOTHING, this whole thing would have been over on 20 days.
A simple, yet very wise statement.
-
Dr Bruce, in a rare appearance on the other board, stated that had we simply done NOTHING, this whole thing would have been over on 20 days.
A simple, yet very wise statement.
He was just fine with he Lock Down and Panic just a few days/weeks ago. What changed? A determined Fauci supporter too.
-
He was just fine with he Lock Down and Panic just a few days/weeks ago. What changed? A determined Fauci supporter too.
Don't know, but that was his most recent post. Maybe he's seen the light that this was mostly a giant scam?
-
Dr Bruce, in a rare appearance on the other board, stated that had we simply done NOTHING, this whole thing would have been over on 20 days.
A simple, yet very wise statement.
I suspect he meant completely locking down for 20 days... that is, absolutely no way to spread the virus.
-
Don't know, but that was his most recent post. Maybe he's seen the light that this was mostly a giant scam?
Maybe or maybe like me he started out liking Fauci but the longer Fauci stood before the press and ran his mouth the less credible he seemed until finally he has none whatsoever as far as I’m concerned.
Or possibly like a lot of people he thought the death rate was much higher and now that more accurate data is coming in he sees it’s not nearly the plague we at first thought.
Or possibly he took off his doctor hat and put on his economist hat.
Or maybe he’s lost a bunch of income from lack of AME consults with the shutdown. Nothing makes you see the light like your own bank account draining.
-
All of this focus on preventing the spread of the virus when the real question is: should we be preventing it? The alleged answer when all this began was, “only to slow the spread enough to avoid overwhelming hospital facilities.”
That’s no longer a concern. Somehow that has morphed into, “we need to slow the spread as much as possible.”
Follow the logic of that. Delaying the spread means delaying herd immunity, which will increase the chance of a devastating second wave when the weather turns cold again.
The correct approach is to use masks only when you are caring for the elderly and vulnerable, but not when you are going about the community. The young and healthy should all be social un-distancing as much as possible so a majority of people build antibodies to it well before the next flu season.
Some thoughts in no particular order.
All the herd immunity we have for the flu didn't prevent the 34 million+ cases of the flu in the 2018-2019 season and 34,000+ deaths (numbers from the CDC).
Something I haven't heard about is whether or not COVID-19 will degrade over time as it (inevitably) mutates. If that were a real possibility, then slowing the spread would be beneficial to those that eventually get it later rather than sooner.
And, of course, if a miracle occurs and we get a viable vaccine, then slowing the spread will also have been useful.
-
I suspect he meant completely locking down for 20 days... that is, absolutely no way to spread the virus.
My husband and I have been discussing ways that countries could prepare for future and even worse bugs.
How about creating the capacity for a TOTAL lockdown for say, three weeks? People are warned ahead of time to lay in supplies. Except for bare minimum utilities, whose employees would have PPE and procedural protection as possible, EVERYONE STAYS INSIDE.
This could work in flu season as well. If it became an annual event, initiated when a bug first struck, people could hunker down with fairly short notice and without the massive, dragged-out shutdowns like we’re in now.
Of course, Libertarians might wreck the whole plan ... 🤣
-
My husband and I have been discussing ways that countries could prepare for future and even worse bugs.
How about creating the capacity for a TOTAL lockdown
This is something I agree with.
"Do or do not, there is no try" - Yoda
If you're going to lock down, do a total lockdown. Tighter than a gnats ass. None of this half assed dragged out everyone (governors and mayors) calls their own shots. Total nationwide lockdown, for length of illness plus a safety factor. They say it takes 14 days to recover, add 7 days to it, call it 21.
If it's a total lockdown, it not only works, but there is a set end date. No dragging it in...
-
This is something I agree with.
"Do or do not, there is no try" - Yoda
Gotta love those who quote meaningless fictional characters. ;D
If you're going to lock down, do a total lockdown. Tighter than a gnats ass. None of this half assed dragged out everyone (governors and mayors) calls their own shots. Total nationwide lockdown, for length of illness plus a safety factor. They say it takes 14 days to recover, add 7 days to it, call it 21.
If it's a total lockdown, it not only works, but there is a set end date. No dragging it in...
I knew this Lock Down was a total scam once Government started to pick winners and losers of who was "Essential" and who was not. Arbitrary, unfair, destructive, and senidn mixed signals and the wrong message. Mask? No Mask? The MEDIA pushing panic mode. All a freaking joke.
"Democrats suck." - Scroda
-
Gotta love those who quote meaningless fictional characters. ;D
Yea, but it's a good quote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4
-
Total lockdown ignores the fact that it’s not healthy for a species to not be exposed to pathogens.
-
Total lockdown ignores the fact that it’s not healthy for a species to not be exposed to pathogens.
A total lockdown would be appropriate under specific circumstances. The hyperexample would be an outbreak of Ebola. At the other end of the spectrum would be the common cold (if I understand correctly, the common cold is caused by a virus).
Not all viruses are created equal.
edit: the need for a total lockdown in response to COVID-19 is left as an exercise for the student...
-
A total lockdown would be appropriate under specific circumstances. The hyperexample would be an outbreak of Ebola. At the other end of the spectrum would be the common cold (if I understand correctly, the common cold is caused by a virus).
Not all viruses are created equal.
edit: the need for a total lockdown in response to COVID-19 is left as an exercise for the student...
In fact, the common cold is caused by a kind of corona virus. QUICK! LOCKDOWN IMMEDIATELY!
-
A total lockdown would be appropriate under specific circumstances. The hyperexample would be an outbreak of Ebola. At the other end of the spectrum would be the common cold (if I understand correctly, the common cold is caused by a virus).
Not all viruses are created equal.
edit: the need for a total lockdown in response to COVID-19 is left as an exercise for the student...
Agree. A total lockdown would be appropriate for a disease with a death rate so high it would threaten the species as opposed to improving it, or in our case simply would cause an unacceptably high loss. I doubt there is a pathogen from this planet anyway that would render humans extinct.
The problem now is that with covid19 we lowered the bar for “acceptable loss” until the loss due to the shutdown threatens to overtake it. That’s when it becomes really stupid.
-
In fact, the common cold is caused by a kind of corona virus. QUICK! LOCKDOWN IMMEDIATELY!
Yes, that is the sad part. 🙁
While being prepared and having the ABILITY to carry off a strategic, surgical lockdown might be extremely wise, the people in charge of deciding when to implement it may not be so wise.
-
Yes, that is the sad part. 🙁
While being prepared and having the ABILITY to carry off a strategic, surgical lockdown might be extremely wise, the people in charge of deciding when to implement it may not be so wise.
I don’t think it’s feasible. There is a huge portion of the population completely unable to stock up and plan for a lockdown.
These are the ones that loot after a hurricane.
-
Agree. A total lockdown would be appropriate for a disease with a death rate so high it would threaten the species as opposed to improving it, or in our case simply would cause an unacceptably high loss. I doubt there is a pathogen from this planet anyway that would render humans extinct.
The problem now is that with covid19 we lowered the bar for “acceptable loss” until the loss due to the shutdown threatens to overtake it. That’s when it becomes really stupid.
Well qualified. We’ve been watching Voyager and almost every episode has a virus or some other weird pathogen that requires all sorts of machinations to defeat. So no escapist viewing there.
Yes, I realize it’s fiction. But who knows what mysterious threats are hurtling toward us from the Delta Quadrant!
🤣
-
This "pandemic" (not an actual pandemic) has allowed the progressives to add a very important chapter to their playbook. And it worked magnificently. I don't believe it was all by design, but none the less it was a resounding success for the leftist.
Just think how this can now be utilized with what they learned, and how they will be able to learn from their mistakes made. The next iteration of this will be even more devistating (and I'm not talking virus and after effects).
We have allowed Pandora's Box to be opened. Unless we are willing to put controls in place NOW, the next one coming will have permanent changes to our way of life.
-
Well qualified. We’ve been watching Voyager and almost every episode has a virus or some other weird pathogen that requires all sorts of machinations to defeat. So no escapist viewing there.
Yes, I realize it’s fiction. But who knows what mysterious threats are hurtling toward us from the Delta Quadrant!
🤣
Tribbles.
-
He was just fine with he Lock Down and Panic just a few days/weeks ago. What changed? A determined Fauci supporter too.
Dr. Bruce helped me out with a couple Class III medicals when I briefly needed an SI. Nice guy in person, but could be a real ass on the AOPA Forums. He flew P-3s for the Navy.
-
Dr. Bruce helped me out with a couple Class III medicals when I briefly needed an SI. Nice guy in person, but could be a real ass on the AOPA Forums. He flew P-3s for the Navy.
Bruce helped me get back in the air.
-
Dr. Bruce helped me out with a couple Class III medicals when I briefly needed an SI. Nice guy in person, but could be a real ass on the AOPA Forums. He flew P-3s for the Navy.
That's my take also. Good guy one on one, but can be difficult on ALL the aviation forums and has a habit of taking his marbles and going home. I give him a few months on that other place. That's his M.O.
-
That's my take also. Good guy one on one, but can be difficult on ALL the aviation forums and has a habit of taking his marbles and going home. I give him a few months on that other place. That's his M.O.
Me three. I never met him in real life but have corresponded with him over the years and he has always been very gracious and helped me with certain issues like when my daughter got cancer. On the forum he can be abrupt, cryptic, and prophylactically rude if he thinks an OP might possibly even consider lying in the future. I attribute it to him having dealt with hundreds if not thousands of would be airmen who are less than forthright. And like many of us, he’s getting older... Get off my lawn!
-
Governor of NC is now talking about making masks mandatory. The mask is now definitely becoming a virtue signal.
-
https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/27/mandatory-masks-arent-about-safety-theyre-about-social-control/
Mandatory masking seeks to build that consent. In addition to extending the fiction that we are in an emergency sufficient to trigger the extra-constitutional authority of local and state executives, mandatory masking acts as a peer pressure-fueled signal that encourages conformity to our coming “new normal.”
An April 18 article in the Washington Post underscores the strategy, presenting the mask controversy as a left versus right debate. People resisting mandatory mask policies are, per usual, painted as unreasonable, headstrong, and backward—displaying ignorant American bravado while rejecting science and good sense. (That caricature is itself a tool to mock, marginalize, and silence dissent.)
The most telling passage of the article is this one:
For Trump’s supporters, declining to wear a mask is a visible way to demonstrate “that ‘I’m a Republican,’ or ‘I want businesses to start up again,’ or ‘I support the president,’ ” said Robert Kahn, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis who has studied Americans’ attitudes toward masks. ‘Masks will quickly become the new normal in blue states, but if social distancing continues through 2022, the mentality among Republicans could well change, too: If I can go to work and the cost of marginal improvement in my life is wearing a mask, maybe Americans of both parties do accommodate ourselves to it.’
And that’s the key. If we want to marginally improve our lives, we will submit. The masks aren’t the endgame. The point of the masks is to teach the American people that if we want to get some sense of normal, we have to accept abnormality.
-
The author is spot on.
In short, cloth masks are largely symbolic. The science hasn’t changed, but the agenda has.
Implementing mandatory mask policies across a society of 300 million because it makes some people feel better is absurd on its face. But the policy makes a lot of sense if you understand its purpose and usefulness to shift the American mindset.
Mandatory masks are a critical predicate conditioning us to accept abuses of our liberty. Mandatory masking provides the foundation on which governments continue to justify emergency measures and rule by executive fiat, and it creates a national mood of consent that America will accept indefinite government expansion because we face a “new normal.”