PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Jim Logajan on May 23, 2020, 08:50:03 PM
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“Jacob Hornberger came in second, with nearly 28 percent of the vote. Vermin Supreme came in third, with 20 percent of the final vote.”
https://reason.com/2020/05/23/jo-jorgensen-wins-libertarian-party-presidential-nomination/ (https://reason.com/2020/05/23/jo-jorgensen-wins-libertarian-party-presidential-nomination/)
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That's nice. Now for God's sake, all you Libertarians please recognize she doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell and vote for Trump in the general election. We cannot allow the democrat candidate, whoever he/she/it is, to win.
Tim
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That's nice. Now for God's sake, all you Libertarians please recognize she doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell and vote for Trump in the general election. We cannot allow the democrat candidate, whoever he/she/it is, to win.
Tim
Um, if SD or any other solid red state goes for Biden, then civilization as we know it is dead. I haven’t voted R or D for president most of my adult life.
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Um, if SD or any other solid red state goes for Biden, then civilization as we know it is dead. I haven’t voted R or D for president most of my adult life.
What is your objective for voting Libertarian? Is it to make a statement? Hope that the Libertarian will actually win? I believe the Establishment Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin, but I don't see another Party emerging to rival them. For me Trump is the first President with at least some, anti establishment leanings.
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What is your objective for voting Libertarian? Is it to make a statement? Hope that the Libertarian will actually win? I believe the Establishment Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin, but I don't see another Party emerging to rival them. For me Trump is the first President with at least some, anti establishment leanings.
I apologize for speaking for Jim but I’m going to guess it’s because he votes in accordance with his values. I’m a libertarian too and I understand that. Every election that I don’t vote for the Libertarian Party I feel like I am betraying my values. But I believe that of the two main parties, one is significantly worse than the other and so I compromise my values and vote for the lesser of two evils, because the damage to the country done by the other is so great I can’t in good conscience allow my third party vote to let them win.
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I apologize for speaking for Jim but I’m going to guess it’s because he votes in accordance with his values. I’m a libertarian too and I understand that. Every election that I don’t vote for the Libertarian Party I feel like I am betraying my values. But I believe that of the two main parties, one is significantly worse than the other and so I compromise my values and vote for the lesser of two evils, because the damage to the country done by the other is so great I can’t in good conscience allow my third party vote to let them win.
I understand and my question was not to be judgmental because I can certainly understand the FAILINGS of the Republican Party. In many ways they are Democrat Lite and have a core interest in growing Government to enlarge their piece of the Pie. However, to Becky's meme, there really is no pragmatic choice to at least try to counter the Democrats utter INSANITY. Look at SCOTUS appointments alone. Would we want Hillary's or Trump's?
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Just the fact that we’ve allowed ourselves into this quagmire speaks volumes about voter apathy.
We have a country that’s more interested in sports celebrities and celebrities that are famous for being famous than who is running their government. The career politicians, on both sides, have done more damage to this country than anyone who has been in the WH. Why? Because if we had true representatives that cared about our interest, the checks and balances of the founding fathers would be there. But we let a select few voters decide who will represent us, and often it’s just keep the-electing the same old shit over and over. And those shit heads are only their to enrich themselves at taxpayers expense.
The founding fathers warned us about 2 party rule. And they were right.
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I apologize for speaking for Jim but I’m going to guess it’s because he votes in accordance with his values.
That is pretty much it. I also don’t think Libertarian candidates have no chance - some do get elected to local government positions.
I’m a libertarian too and I understand that. Every election that I don’t vote for the Libertarian Party I feel like I am betraying my values. But I believe that of the two main parties, one is significantly worse than the other and so I compromise my values and vote for the lesser of two evils, because the damage to the country done by the other is so great I can’t in good conscience allow my third party vote to let them win.
Understandable - certainly if people are in toss-up states then exercising pragmatism is reasonable.
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I embrace some Libertarian characteristics, so often call myself a "Conservatarian", but I vote Republican for pragmatic reasons. We need to get more anti Establishment Republican candidates running, and instill in them they can not embrace the Dark Side (Deep State Corruption) just to get ahead in the Party and Politics. That is the hard part. How do you do that?
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“Jacob Hornberger came in second, with nearly 28 percent of the vote. Vermin Supreme came in third, with 20 percent of the final vote.”
https://reason.com/2020/05/23/jo-jorgensen-wins-libertarian-party-presidential-nomination/ (https://reason.com/2020/05/23/jo-jorgensen-wins-libertarian-party-presidential-nomination/)
Vermin Supreme didn’t win?
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/YWy8pvMqPTg7DItyY5/giphy.gif)
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Um, if SD or any other solid red state goes for Biden, then civilization as we know it is dead. I haven’t voted R or D for president most of my adult life.
I will make the assumption that a principled libertarian voter would rarely vote for a democrat candidate, especially Hillary Clinton.
In the 2016 election in Colorado, Hillary won with 1,208,095 votes over Trump’s 1,136,354 - a margin of 71,741 votes.
Gary Johnson garnered 129,128 votes.
Congratulations principled Libertarians. You turned Colorado blue.
Johnson’s vote count also exceeded the margin in Florida (won by Trump), Maine (won by Clinton), Michigan (won by Trump), Minnesota (won by Clinton), Nevada (won by Clinton), New Hampshire (won by Clinton), New Mexico (won by Clinton), Pennsylvania (won by Trump), and Wisconsin (won by Trump).
Six states could arguably have voted for Trump if not for principled libertarian voters voting for a candidate that had zero chance of winning.
Sorry but I’ve lost my patience with libertarians as a party.
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I will make the assumption that a principled libertarian voter would rarely vote for a democrat candidate, especially Hillary Clinton.
In the 2016 election in Colorado, Hillary won with 1,208,095 votes over Trump’s 1,136,354 - a margin of 71,741 votes.
Gary Johnson garnered 129,128 votes.
Congratulations principled Libertarians. You turned Colorado blue.
Johnson’s vote count also exceeded the margin in Florida (won by Trump), Maine (won by Clinton), Michigan (won by Trump), Minnesota (won by Clinton), Nevada (won by Clinton), New Hampshire (won by Clinton), New Mexico (won by Clinton), Pennsylvania (won by Trump), and Wisconsin (won by Trump).
Six states could arguably have voted for Trump if not for principled libertarian voters voting for a candidate that had zero chance of winning.
Sorry but I’ve lost my patience with libertarians as a party.
Your argument is vacuous and tiresome. You are under the delusion that those voters would have voted for Trump if only there was no Libertarian party candidate. When the major candidates are disliked by many, and there are no alternatives, they would have sat out the election, as in fact many chose to do. They were never Trump’s voters because Trump is nowhere near being a Libertarian. You must think people with principles should abandon them for candidates who don’t abide by those principles.
It’s almost as if you think the Republican and Democratic parties originated with Adam and Eve and will be the only major parties to the end of time. Go read the history of when and how the Republican party formed. Something about a principle was involved - I doubt you know what it was without looking it up. Libertarians started similarly.
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I will make the assumption that a principled libertarian voter would rarely vote for a democrat candidate, especially Hillary Clinton.
In the 2016 election in Colorado, Hillary won with 1,208,095 votes over Trump’s 1,136,354 - a margin of 71,741 votes.
Gary Johnson garnered 129,128 votes.
Congratulations principled Libertarians. You turned Colorado blue.
Johnson’s vote count also exceeded the margin in Florida (won by Trump), Maine (won by Clinton), Michigan (won by Trump), Minnesota (won by Clinton), Nevada (won by Clinton), New Hampshire (won by Clinton), New Mexico (won by Clinton), Pennsylvania (won by Trump), and Wisconsin (won by Trump).
Six states could arguably have voted for Trump if not for principled libertarian voters voting for a candidate that had zero chance of winning.
Sorry but I’ve lost my patience with libertarians as a party.
That’s assuming all those libertarians would have voted for Trump and not Hillary. I’m not sure that’s the case.
Edit: well Jim beat me to it.
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Your argument is vacuous and tiresome. You are under the delusion that those voters would have voted for Trump if only there was no Libertarian party candidate. When the major candidates are disliked by many, and there are no alternatives, they would have sat out the election, as in fact many chose to do. They were never Trump’s voters because Trump is nowhere near being a Libertarian. You must think people with principles should abandon them for candidates who don’t abide by those principles.
It’s almost as if you think the Republican and Democratic parties originated with Adam and Eve and will be the only major parties to the end of time. Go read the history of when and how the Republican party formed. Something about a principle was involved - I doubt you know what it was without looking it up. Libertarians started similarly.
Sorry, I foolishly thought Libertarians were still Americans who wanted their vote to mean something in the American Presidential election.
Yeah, I know how the GOP got started. It started 60 miles from me in Ripon, Wisconsin.
I was once a principled 32-year old. 20 million of us voted for independent businessman Ross Perot, 19% of the vote, and zero electoral votes. The margin of error was 6 million votes, so in reality we elected Bill Clinton.
I grew up and got over it. I realized I could try to use my influence within the GOP, instead of effectively sitting on the sidelines for every future election like a libertarian voter.
In the next election Perot only got 8 million and 8% of the vote, but the damage was already done. Did I like Bob Dole? No, but I disliked Clinton a lot more.
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That’s assuming all those libertarians would have voted for Trump and not Hillary. I’m not sure that’s the case.
Edit: well Jim beat me to it.
Yes, what I don’t think would happen is that a principled libertarian would vote for Hillary.
I didn’t anticipate his answer that a principled libertarian would rather sit in the stands and watch the game instead of using their vote to participate in it. That’s actually quite sad and pathetic.
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That’s assuming all those libertarians would have voted for Trump and not Hillary. I’m not sure that’s the case.
Edit: well Jim beat me to it.
Who would Libertarians lean towards today if they HAD to make a choice? The Fascist, Big Government Democrats? Because that's what they are at this point. I like to use the term Fasco-Communist because it is very descriptive of exactly what the Democrats have become. I think most would lean towards a Republican.
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Who would Libertarians lean towards today if they HAD to make a choice? The Fascist, Big Government Democrats? Because that's what they are at this point. I like to use the term Fasco-Communist because it is very descriptive of exactly what the Democrats have become. I think most would lean towards a Republican.
How many of those votes in 2016 were independents who said, “I hate both Trump and Hillary, so I’m going third party and toss a coin between Johnson and Stein.” Swing voters tend to not be very deep thinkers.
Of course one hopes most of the libertarian votes were actual libertarians and of the American variety, not the left-libertarianism from across the pond, or people who are attracted to libertarianism for the social freedoms but don’t understand economics.
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How many of those votes in 2016 were independents who said, “I hate both Trump and Hillary, so I’m going third party and toss a coin between Johnson and Stein.” Swing voters tend to not be very deep thinkers.
Of course one hopes most of the libertarian votes were actual libertarians and of the American variety, not the left-libertarianism from across the pond, or people who are attracted to libertarianism for the social freedoms but don’t understand economics.
I get voting on principle, its surely the most honorable thing to do. But, to vote in that way and KNOW that my vote didn't change ANYTHING would drive me nuts. I don't like that we only have two parties, and yes, sometimes (hell, most of the time) they're in bed together, but I'm still going to cast a ballot that at least counts in steering the country.
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How many of those votes in 2016 were independents who said, “I hate both Trump and Hillary, so I’m going third party and toss a coin between Johnson and Stein.” Swing voters tend to not be very deep thinkers.
huh? not deep thinkers? as opposed to the people who vote a straight party line every single election?
idle thought: do liberal have difficulty with the concept of voting a straight party line?
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I get voting on principle, its surely the most honorable thing to do. But, to vote in that way and KNOW that my vote didn't change ANYTHING would drive me nuts. I don't like that we only have two parties, and yes, sometimes (hell, most of the time) they're in bed together, but I'm still going to cast a ballot that at least counts in steering the country.
Yes. I respect Jim’s intellectual bonafides but here we part ways.
Principles are wonderful things and serve us well usually. Most of the wonderful aspects of my life today that I enjoy and cherish resulted from my adherence to my principles.
We’ve seen in the last 25 years, but most especially in the Obama years, that presidential elections can turn on a relatively small number of votes, and that who is president powerfully and radically can affect the culture. Politics, and their effect on the citizenry, are derivative of the culture.
While libertarians would like to see a certain set of principles govern America, the sad truth is that they’ve not come up with any (not one) inspiring or electable candidates for president. In fact, their presidential candidates typically have serious and visible weirdnesses that put people off rather strongly. Yet here is where the “principled” L hews to his party on principle and votes for the L candidate.
And certainly that is his sacred right and privilege.
But a look at the bigger picture should show the L that he might achieve at least some of his goals by voting D or R, depending on his personal set of principles. Instead, the L has just thrown his vote into a limbo of unquantifiable space where its only ultimate function exists in relation to whether he has affected the election’s outcome based on which D or R candidate he and his fellow Ls “probably would have voted for.”
Voting L in the current political environment is like pulling the chute on a Cirrus. Your vote is lost in electoral drift and you’ve just surrendered meaningful input as to where your country lands.
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While libertarians would like to see a certain set of principles govern America, the sad truth is that they’ve not come up with any (not one) inspiring or electable candidates for president. In fact, their presidential candidates typically have serious and visible weirdnesses that put people off rather strongly. Yet here is where the “principled” L hews to his party on principle and votes for the L candidate.
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what the heck was that?
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“serious and visible weirdnesses”... you mean like this?
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Yea, but look at the countries that have Libertarian governments and how well they are run!
Look at all of the libertarian governors, congressmen and senators!
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I'm kind of leaning towards a Modified Anarchy type of system, where government is highly restricted to providing a few basic services that are ALL outsourced to the private sector.
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Yea, but look at the countries that have Libertarian governments and how well they are run!
Look at all of the libertarian governors, congressmen and senators!
Careful with that...
Look at the countries that democatic governments and how well they are run!
Look at all the democratic governors, congressmen, and senators!
;-)
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Careful with that...
Look at the countries that democatic governments and how well they are run!
Look at all the democratic governors, congressmen, and senators!
;-)
So let's list the countries that have Libertarian governments:
1)
2)
3)
Now, lets list members of congress that are members of the Libertarian Party:
1) Justin Amash
Governors:
1)
And to be fair, there are a small handful of state legislators that claim to be of the Libertarian Party.
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Yes. I respect Jim’s intellectual bonafides but here we part ways.
Principles are wonderful things and serve us well usually. Most of the wonderful aspects of my life today that I enjoy and cherish resulted from my adherence to my principles.
We’ve seen in the last 25 years, but most especially in the Obama years, that presidential elections can turn on a relatively small number of votes, and that who is president powerfully and radically can affect the culture. Politics, and their effect on the citizenry, are derivative of the culture.
While libertarians would like to see a certain set of principles govern America, the sad truth is that they’ve not come up with any (not one) inspiring or electable candidates for president. In fact, their presidential candidates typically have serious and visible weirdnesses that put people off rather strongly. Yet here is where the “principled” L hews to his party on principle and votes for the L candidate.
And certainly that is his sacred right and privilege.
But a look at the bigger picture should show the L that he might achieve at least some of his goals by voting D or R, depending on his personal set of principles. Instead, the L has just thrown his vote into a limbo of unquantifiable space where its only ultimate function exists in relation to whether he has affected the election’s outcome based on which D or R candidate he and his fellow Ls “probably would have voted for.”
Voting L in the current political environment is like pulling the chute on a Cirrus. Your vote is lost in electoral drift and you’ve just surrendered meaningful input as to where your country lands.
That was said in a much nicer way than what I said, and I agree 100%.