PILOT SPIN
Pilot Zone => Pilot Zone => Topic started by: PeterNSteinmetz on September 16, 2021, 07:36:10 PM
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Here is a question that was asked on PoA that could be interesting to discuss -
“This was mentioned in a reply on another thread but prompted my wonder…
Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…
however in my airplane they could….
Why is one considered out of bounds by the 4/5th amendment and the other isn’t?
Both driving and flying are privileges not rights, so that’s not it. Ones federal ones state regulated but I still don’t think the FBI could just do a vehicle inspection when I walk out of Walmart…
I’m just curious of what technicality allows for one but not the other…”
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I don’t think the premise is valid:
“Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…
however in my airplane they could….”
There are regulations that allow law enforcement and others so designated to see that you have required documents (e.g. pilot certificate, airworthiness, aircraft registration, etc.) but a warrant or probable cause is needed before they can enter or search a plane. And unless they are invited onto private property they can’t legally perform a ramp check at a private airfield.
This is one lawyer’s advice on dealing with ramp checks:
https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2019/june/01/be-prepared-ramp-checks-and-what-you-should-know (https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2019/june/01/be-prepared-ramp-checks-and-what-you-should-know)
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I've never been ramp checked (knocking on wood), but I haven't heard of law enforcement doing that. Your local law enforcement officer or FBI probably has no idea what documents are required to be on your person or in the aircraft. They may be able to search for drugs under the same restrictions as searching your car, but not to make sure you or your aircraft are airworthy.
I think that ramp checks are done by the FAA only. But I'd really be interested in knowing who can do it and under what circumstances.
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I've never been ramp checked (knocking on wood), but I haven't heard of law enforcement doing that. Your local law enforcement officer or FBI probably has no idea what documents are required to be on your person or in the aircraft. They may be able to search for drugs under the same restrictions as searching your car, but not to make sure you or your aircraft are airworthy.
I think that ramp checks are done by the FAA only. But I'd really be interested in knowing who can do it and under what circumstances.
Here ya go, tells you everything they do.
https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.6,Ch1,Sec4
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Years ago our EAA Chapter held a poker run. It was advertised in an email sent out to chapter members. Someone missed the fact that one of members was FAA. As several of us arrived at the first airport, there he was waiting to greet us and check everything out.
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Here ya go, tells you everything they do.
https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.6,Ch1,Sec4
Somehow the document got cut off in your link. Here's the link to the full document.
https://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8700.1%20GA%20Ops%20Insp%20Handbk/Volume%202/2_056_00.htm
Yep, there it is: "Airworthiness and Operations inspectors [aviation safety inspector (ASI)] conduct ramp inspections on airmen and aircraft operating under various 14 CFR parts."
Here's an interesting part: "(2) A ramp inspection is defined as surveillance of an airman, operator, or air agency during actual operations at an airport or heliport. "
Actual operations. No sir, I'm just standing here. I'm not operating this aircraft.
I read through the ramp check rules. Interesting that an FCC radio station license is required. I thought the ARROW second R was removed? I haven't ever read the full regulation but only what other people say about it. Glad I read through it myself.
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Somehow the document got cut off in your link. Here's the link to the full document.
https://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8700.1%20GA%20Ops%20Insp%20Handbk/Volume%202/2_056_00.htm
Yep, there it is: "Airworthiness and Operations inspectors [aviation safety inspector (ASI)] conduct ramp inspections on airmen and aircraft operating under various 14 CFR parts."
Here's an interesting part: "(2) A ramp inspection is defined as surveillance of an airman, operator, or air agency during actual operations at an airport or heliport. "
Actual operations. No sir, I'm just standing here. I'm not operating this aircraft.
I read through the ramp check rules. Interesting that an FCC radio station license is required. I thought the ARROW second R was removed? I haven't ever read the full regulation but only what other people say about it. Glad I read through it myself.
I could have sworn they did away with that.
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I could have sworn they did away with that.
Except for international travel.
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Except for international travel.
Looks like there are two licenses. One for the pilot, and a station license for the plane:
13. PILOT DOCUMENTS. When asked to present airman and medical certificates, a pilot may present a radio license formerly required by the fcc or make a statement that he or she does not have one. The FCC has determined that pilots are no longer required to have this license unless flying internationally.
17. AIRCRAFT DOCUMENTS.
C. Radio Station License. An aircraft FCC radio license is required although the FAA does not regulate the requirement. The license may be for that particular N-number or a fleet license. The expiration date of the license is in the upper right hand corner. Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only.
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Looks like there are two licenses. One for the pilot, and a station license for the plane:
13. PILOT DOCUMENTS. When asked to present airman and medical certificates, a pilot may present a radio license formerly required by the fcc or make a statement that he or she does not have one. The FCC has determined that pilots are no longer required to have this license unless flying internationally.
17. AIRCRAFT DOCUMENTS.
C. Radio Station License. An aircraft FCC radio license is required although the FAA does not regulate the requirement. The license may be for that particular N-number or a fleet license. The expiration date of the license is in the upper right hand corner. Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only.
I was thinking of the pilot one. I came across mine the other day. I remember looking at it years ago going “well I guess this is useless now”.
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I was thinking of the pilot one. I came across mine the other day. I remember looking at it years ago going “well I guess this is useless now”.
Yeah, that one was pretty cool. Looking more the FCC no longer requires the aircraft station license. But the FAA CFR hasn't been updated as far as I can tell and it's still on the required document list. Must be on a correction sheet somewhere.
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I don’t think the premise is valid:
“Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…
however in my airplane they could….”
There are regulations that allow law enforcement and others so designated to see that you have required documents (e.g. pilot certificate, airworthiness, aircraft registration, etc.) but a warrant or probable cause is needed before they can enter or search a plane. And unless they are invited onto private property they can’t legally perform a ramp check at a private airfield.
This is one lawyer’s advice on dealing with ramp checks:
https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2019/june/01/be-prepared-ramp-checks-and-what-you-should-know (https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2019/june/01/be-prepared-ramp-checks-and-what-you-should-know)
I think Peter’s premise does have some validity. We take the FARs as gospel, but in reality, any regulation or statute in violation of the Constitution is null and void. Marburg v. Madison.
Receiving an ASEL or any other certificate does not compel us pilots to follow regulations that violate the Constitution.
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I think Peter’s premise does have some validity. We take the FARs as gospel, but in reality, any regulation or statute in violation of the Constitution is null and void. Marburg v. Madison.
Receiving an ASEL or any other certificate does not compel us pilots to follow regulations that violate the Constitution.
That is true but that won’t stop the ones with the guns to enforce the unconstitutional law. They’ll do it until the Supreme Court strikes it down. In the meantime you can hope for jury nullification. That is, in the case of jury trial. For administrative enforcement you’re just SOOL.
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A stop by LEOs is a criminal matter. A ramp check is an administrative matter, at least that's how I understand it. I think they're profoundly different. And cops can stop you at random, just like they do at sobriety checkpoints.
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A stop by LEOs is a criminal matter. A ramp check is an administrative matter, at least that's how I understand it. I think they're profoundly different. And cops can stop you at random, just like they do at sobriety checkpoints.
A popo stop isn't necessarily criminal. In fact, you retain all your rights when detained. Legally they can only detain you on very specific criteria per SCOTUS case law. They certainly can "stop" you at random but you can also walk away unless they tell you you're "detained."
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A popo stop isn't necessarily criminal. In fact, you retain all your rights when detained. Legally they can only detain you on very specific criteria per SCOTUS case law. They certainly can "stop" you at random but you can also walk away unless they tell you you're "detained."
Try telling them that.
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Try telling them that.
I didn't say they can't force the issue, but they are on shaky legal ground. That's why you tell them you don't answer questions without your attorney being present, you are invoking all of your Constitutionally protected rights, then you clam up. Nicely, of course.
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I didn't say they can't force the issue, but they are on shaky legal ground. That's why you tell them you don't answer questions without your attorney being present, you are invoking all of your Constitutionally protected rights, then you clam up. Nicely, of course.
Yup, all that. But if you try to leave ahead of their schedule things could get pretty dicey. You might win in court, but it'll still hurt when they rough you up.