PILOT SPIN
Pilot Zone => Accident Review/Never Again (I hope..) => Topic started by: PeterNSteinmetz on October 13, 2021, 07:09:53 PM
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Summary:
A gear collapse of a V35B Bonanza at Deer Valley Airport was caused by a slip of the pilot confusing the gear and flap levers. There was no danger of nor any injuries. The incident caused complete economic loss of the aircraft.
Introduction:
Since there has been some interest expressed in this incident here, I recently checked with my attorney who has approved public discussion of the aviation facts and aspects of this incident. I will first review the underlying facts, then discuss causes and lessons. My hope is that such careful review will help reduce the number of such incidents in the future.
Background:
Prior to this incident, I had flown ~900 hours in my fixed gear 1969 Cardinal which I had purchased pre-solo. During private training I had done more touch and goes in that aircraft than I can count and got in the habit of reaching over to the right during the latter part of the landing roll and bringing up the flaps. During training for my CFI, I had performed at least 100 short field landings in which I would bring up the flaps to get the weight on the main gear and improve braking effectiveness. I did my commerical training in a T-tailed Arrow IV back when retractable time was required. Prior to this incident, we had purchased for a jointly owned LLC a 1977 V-tailed Bonanza of which I then owned 50%. I had had 10 hours of dual training in this Bonanza as part of the Bonanza Pilot Profieciency Program and 5 hours of solo flight for insurance purposes. In total, I had 43 hours in retractables.
On September 4, 2021:
On this day, I had decided to take a friend for a breakfast flight up to Prescott, AZ, both to enjoy the flight and check out the situation with the new terminal there and the required shuttle to Suzie's Skyway restaurant; this in preparation for the upcoming fly-in breakfast on October 23. I decided to take the V-tailed Bonanza since I wanted to accumulate more time in it.
After breakfast, we went to overfly the nearby gliderport. We then headed south back to KDVT and I let my friend fly part of the way back and the descent back into the valley. It was somewhat difficult losing all the required altitude and, as we approached KDVT, I noticed we were inside the circle denoting their class D. I immediately began a turn to the west and called tower. It turned out that we were still above their airspace so no violation. They had us continue flying to the north to provide spacing for a slower aircraft which was also coming in to land from the north.
We were then turned back south to use an extended base with an original assignment for runway 7L. I had requested and expected to eventually be transferred to 7R as the airplane was hangared on the southwest part of the field. This eventually happened. As I had promised myself during my commercial training, I went through the GUMPS checklist 3 times: on the extended base (essentially the downwind check), on base proper, and on final. All 3 times 3 green lights were observed and confirmed by the passenger.
We were a bit fast initially on final but got the speed under control and landed. Once on the runway, I noticed we were a bit fast on rollout and made a comment about this. The passenger said he had noticed a bit of a tailwind as well. As we approached two possible turnouts, I decided I would bring up the flaps and, as in my Cardinal, reached over to the right and pulled the lever up.
The next thing I heard was a scraping sound and I then noticed the propeller tips bending over. Clearly I had brought up the gear instead of the flaps and uttered some profanity. We slid about 150' down the runway and came to a stop. What a sinking feeling - literally and figuratively! The passenger asked if we should get out now. I said to start doing so and turned off the fuel. The tower then called and asked if we had a problem. I confirmed we did and then turned off the electrical.
Exiting onto the right wing I could see some fuel dripping out onto the asphalt at the right wing tip but no smoke or other sign of fire. We moved a bit away from the airplane and started to assess.
My first thought and the first thing the passenger said was "What the Hxxx? Isn't there supposed to be a squat switch to prevent this sort of thing?" Looking at the airplane, the nose gear was completely collapsed and the main gear mostly but not fully retracted in an asymmetric way with the right gear more retracted. The right wing tip had struck the pavement and the right flap had hit. But overall at this point the damage didn't look too terribly bad.
Shortly a truck from airport management arrived and they called the NTSB to determine if the aircraft could be moved. We took a whole bunch of photos to record the incident and sent some to the NTSB.
Next thing I did was contact the co-owner of the LLC and explain the situation. Then my flight instructor to get his take on this.
The NTSB approved moving the aircraft and it took about an hour to locate a tow truck that had a crane for picking up wrecks. They lifted the aircraft over to the ramp area and we set it down using some concrete blocks to support the nose.
Next few days:
After inspecting the photographs, the NTSB determined there was no substantial damage and it was an incident rather than an accident. I described the entire incident to the FAA. Their basic determination was that this was a slip type of error -- intending to do one thing but instead mistakenly doing something else. They felt qualifications and training were more than adequate and had no required or recommended training. I believe they felt the incident itself was more than enough of a lesson in what not to do.
We obtained an estimate for repairs of $163,000, which exceeeded the insured hull value of $150,000, and so the insurance company decided to total the aircraft and took possession.
Causes:
In considering this incident, my thoughts are that there were two primary causes and two possible secondary causes:
Primacy of learning was likely one primary cause. I had literally 20 times as much time in a fixed gear Cardinal as in retractables, much of it taking up the flaps during touch and goes or during short field landings. By contrast, only a portion of the 10 hours of dual instruction in the Bonanza had dealt with not making configuration changes during the landing roll out. So during a quick decision while landing, the initial and much longer training took over. During my 5 hours of solo time in the Bonanza, I may have already started reverting to taking up the flaps, though can't remember.
Flying both fixed gear and retractables was another likely primary cause. The day before this incident I had been giving a lesson in the Cardinal and had taken up the flaps during the landing roll out, as was my habit. Several airline pilot friends have noted that in the airlines they learned a long time ago that this sort of thing could happen and so the pilots are trained for one type and only fly that type. Additionally, all crew use exactly the same procedures every time, even if there are multiple ways to accomplish a task. This consistency reinforces the proper habit to be used when flying the plane. Switching back and forth between airplanes with different procedures means the habits may be the wrong habit for the airplane.
A secondary cause likely included failure maintain a sterile cockpit. There was no operational reason to comment on the fast ground speed or be having a conversation about the tailwind at that point. This may have decreased my attention to identifying the flap lever properly. My friend previously worked as an aeronautical engineer and we always have way to much to talk about. I realize I had never discussed with him the need for a sterile cockpit during takeoff, pattern, and landing.
Another possible secondary cause was a failure of the squat switch. Since this was unfortunately not checked prior to the insurance company taking possession of the plane, the official read by the FAA is that this aspect is unknown. We were rolling fairly slowly, but the squat switch still allowing the gear to come up if there is lift from the flaps or a bump is one of the reasons that the Bonanza training is - don't change the configuration until stopped off the runway.
A contributing factor was likely the fact that older Bonanzas have the gear lever on the right versus on the left in other aircraft and in newer Bonanzas. If the flaps had been on the right, as in my Cardinal, my reaching over and lifting the lever likely would not have caused the gear collapse.
Lessons regarding procedures:
I think there are several lessons here.
Firstly, if one is going to be flying a mixure of types, such as fixed gear and retractables, it is best to adopt a set of procedures which will work in both types so that the proper habits are easier to maintain. In this case, don't touch the flaps or trim or other configuration during landing rollout, even though that may be fine in a fixed gear airplane.
Clearly in some cases, like touch and goes or short field landings, it will be necessary to makes changes during roll-out, but then likely best to explicitly brief them on downwind or before entering the pattern and reinforce this by manually identifying the controls to be used.
I don't know that this lesson applies as strongly or broadly when just flying fixed gear or transitioning completely to retractables.
Secondly, use multiple layered procedures during required configuration changes. Especially when moving between aircraft and/or types, perhaps best to first identify the control by feel, then state out loud what one's hand is on, then move it. And use the pinky finger to push up on the flap shaped flap lever since that won't work well on a wheel shaped gear lever.
As in handling firearms, multiple layers of safety should reduce the chances of an undesired outcome by a multiplicative effect. I have begun the process of training myself to not bring the flaps up on the runway - even in the Cardinal. I think I will be able to change this long standing habit. Combined with other changes, hopefully this will never happen again (knock on wood).
What I am presently doing with airplanes:
This was clearly a very unfortunate destruction of a rather nice Bonanza through a seemingly simple pilot error. Ugh. Several friends have noted that perhaps I would be well advised to switch to a C210 for a faster airplane since the layout of the controls will be more similar to the C177 Cardinal. While I agree this is true, the simple fact of the matter is that I vastly prefer the control balance and speed of the V-tailed Bonanzas.
Since a gear collapse on roll-out is not likey dangerous, I will start looking again for a V35B Bonanza come the new year. Presently I am working on taking delivery of a new to me glider and finishing up my helicopter add-on. My insurance on all aircraft, including gliders, will apparently be up about 30% over the next several years. I guess I will just pay it to continue to enjoy flying the aircraft I like.
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Thanks for the candid explanation of the incident. IMHO, unless the field is very short, I'd avoid configuration changes while on the rollout. Wait until you pull off the runway, stop, and then do your post landing and clean up the airplane.
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Good write up.
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I have a book that discusses in detail the mixing up of gear and flap levers. The gist of it is basically this:
After inspecting the photographs, the NTSB determined there was no substantial damage and it was an incident rather than an accident. I described the entire incident to the FAA. Their basic determination was that this was a slip type of error -- intending to do one thing but instead mistakenly doing something else. They felt qualifications and training were more than adequate and had no required or recommended training. I believe they felt the incident itself was more than enough of a lesson in what not to do.
It sounds like they read the book and accurately assessed the situation. It's a combination of design and normal human nature. This can happen to ANYONE.
I'll try to find it later, might never get to it, I'm swamped with work.
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Thanks for the candid explanation of the incident. IMHO, unless the field is very short, I'd avoid configuration changes while on the rollout. Wait until you pull off the runway, stop, and then do your post landing and clean up the airplane.
One of my primary instructors drilled into me, even in a welded gear 172, to say after turning off the runway and proceeding to clean up “It looks like a flap, it feels like a flap, it is a flap.”
I use that to this day and particularly in my Navion, when such things really matter.
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So I went to look at the configuration of an Arrow IV today. Gear lever to the left of the throttle quadrant and flap lever on the floor between the two front seats. This explains why this was not an issue for me when using that aircraft during my commercial training.
This shows I think an interesting point. Errors due to transitioning between airplanes are more likely to occur when the new airplane is close to, but not too close to, the airplane being transitioned from.
For example, moving from a C177 to a C150 is not likely to lead to this type of confusion because the layout is almost the same.
Similarly, moving from a C177 to an Arrow IV is not likely to lead to this confusion because the layout is so very different.
But in between lies a dangerous area. The controls are similar enough in layout that an older habit can dominate the response even if it is not the correct response. It seems like the older style Bonanzas relative to a Cessna like a C177 is a prime setup for this. I imagine there are other examples as well.
In the future I intend to specifically assess for this sort of middling similarity in layout when moving between planes and then put into place the multiple layers of protection against a possible bad older habit.
I have a book that discusses in detail the mixing up of gear and flap levers.
Seems like it would be a good read if you can find the title and or authors.
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So I went to look at the configuration of an Arrow IV today. Gear lever to the left of the throttle quadrant and flap lever on the floor between the two front seats. This explains why this was not an issue for me when using that aircraft during my commercial training.
This shows I think an interesting point. Errors due to transitioning between airplanes are more likely to occur when the new airplane is close to, but not too close to, the airplane being transitioned from.
For example, moving from a C177 to a C150 is not likely to lead to this type of confusion because the layout is almost the same.
Similarly, moving from a C177 to an Arrow IV is not likely to lead to this confusion because the layout is so very different.
But in between lies a dangerous area. The controls are similar enough in layout that an older habit can dominate the response even if it is not the correct response. It seems like the older style Bonanzas relative to a Cessna like a C177 is a prime setup for this. I imagine there are other examples as well.
In the future I intend to specifically assess for this sort of middling similarity in layout when moving between planes and then put into place the multiple layers of protection against a possible bad older habit.
Seems like it would be a good read if you can find the title and or authors.
For future reference, when operating any type airplane wait until exiting the runway before reconfigure (before anyone jumps in, I realize there are rare times to raise the flaps during rollout).
Once clear of the runway, place your hand on the flap lever (or switch) and say to yourself "Flap switch, verified" before moving it.
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So I went to look at the configuration of an Arrow IV today. Gear lever to the left of the throttle quadrant and flap lever on the floor between the two front seats. This explains why this was not an issue for me when using that aircraft during my commercial training.
This shows I think an interesting point. Errors due to transitioning between airplanes are more likely to occur when the new airplane is close to, but not too close to, the airplane being transitioned from.
For example, moving from a C177 to a C150 is not likely to lead to this type of confusion because the layout is almost the same.
Similarly, moving from a C177 to an Arrow IV is not likely to lead to this confusion because the layout is so very different.
But in between lies a dangerous area. The controls are similar enough in layout that an older habit can dominate the response even if it is not the correct response. It seems like the older style Bonanzas relative to a Cessna like a C177 is a prime setup for this. I imagine there are other examples as well.
In the future I intend to specifically assess for this sort of middling similarity in layout when moving between planes and then put into place the multiple layers of protection against a possible bad older habit.
Seems like it would be a good read if you can find the title and or authors.
I think it’s a good theoretical exercise, particularly if you are bouncing back and forth like an instructor.
However, I had 300 hours in Skyhawks before getting 75 hours in a Cutlass. I didn’t feel any fallback to my fixed gear flying. But I didn’t bounce back and forth.
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I think it’s a good theoretical exercise, particularly if you are bouncing back and forth like an instructor.
However, I had 300 hours in Skyhawks before getting 75 hours in a Cutlass. I didn’t feel any fallback to my fixed gear flying. But I didn’t bounce back and forth.
Do you mean the 172RG Cutlass? That will be rather close in layout to the 172 fixed gear, won’t it?
I agree that a couple of things make for a bigger risk:
Bouncing back and forth versus just moving over.
Moving between planes which have a middling similarity - not really close but also not really different.
Combination of those two is a situation I am certainly going to be very careful about in the future. Admittedly not a terribly common combination.
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Do you mean the 172RG Cutlass? That will be rather close in layout to the 172 fixed gear, won’t it?
I agree that a couple of things make for a bigger risk:
Bouncing back and forth versus just moving over.
Moving between planes which have a middling similarity - not really close but also not really different.
Combination of those two is a situation I am certainly going to be very careful about in the future. Admittedly not a terribly common combination.
Yes, sorry. A C-172RG. It was a very good complex airplane to use in training, plus it’s got a good 20+knots over a 172.
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So I went to look at the configuration of an Arrow IV today. Gear lever to the left of the throttle quadrant and flap lever on the floor between the two front seats. This explains why this was not an issue for me when using that aircraft during my commercial training.
This shows I think an interesting point. Errors due to transitioning between airplanes are more likely to occur when the new airplane is close to, but not too close to, the airplane being transitioned from.
For example, moving from a C177 to a C150 is not likely to lead to this type of confusion because the layout is almost the same.
Similarly, moving from a C177 to an Arrow IV is not likely to lead to this confusion because the layout is so very different.
But in between lies a dangerous area. The controls are similar enough in layout that an older habit can dominate the response even if it is not the correct response. It seems like the older style Bonanzas relative to a Cessna like a C177 is a prime setup for this. I imagine there are other examples as well.
In the future I intend to specifically assess for this sort of middling similarity in layout when moving between planes and then put into place the multiple layers of protection against a possible bad older habit.
Seems like it would be a good read if you can find the title and or authors.
You motivated me to search. Half my books are still packed in boxes from our last move. It wasn’t among the ones on shelves. I’m going to have to go on an expedition. My office is a mess.
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You motivated me to search. Half my books are still packed in boxes from our last move. It wasn’t among the ones on shelves. I’m going to have to go on an expedition. My office is a mess.
Haha. I know the feeling. If I hadn't gotten rid of perhaps 1/2 of my books when I moved to AZ, the house would be completely overrun.
If you can remember any hints about it, perhaps with some Google-Fu I can find it.
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A good analysis Peter. All valid points and good for consideration. I am learning all the time. This is another one for my memory bank. I am guilty of this as well and need to eliminate to risk. Thanks for the write up!
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A good analysis Peter. All valid points and good for consideration. I am learning all the time. This is another one for my memory bank. I am guilty of this as well and need to eliminate to risk. Thanks for the write up!
Welcome to pilotspin!
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Haha. I know the feeling. If I hadn't gotten rid of perhaps 1/2 of my books when I moved to AZ, the house would be completely overrun.
If you can remember any hints about it, perhaps with some Google-Fu I can find it.
It’s been years since I read it. They talked about the levers being shaped similarly and located close to each other, stuff you already know, and how one of the fixes is to make the knob on the gear lever round like a wheel and the flap one flap shaped. But it talked about the mental factors involved in mistakes like this and how it is inherently human nature.
Another thing they talked about was feathering the wrong engine. They called this “laterality” referring to our tendency to mix up left and right.
And about how automating things degrades stick and rudder skills, especially during the landing phase when workload is highest, stress is highest, fatigue is highest and so on.
It might have been “The Naked Pilot” but I’m not sure, I think I read more than one book on accident analysis. But I can’t find it (them)? I found “Weather Flying” and my Earnest Gann books and dozens of VHS tapes. I had my husband go look in the attic, he’d taken boxes of books up there.
I really should throw out most of my books but I can’t make myself do it. I keep thinking the power will go out long term and I’ll need my books again. Or like now, you never know when you want to refer to something in them again.
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One thing to consider is if you need to put the flaps up after landing. Our flaps are NO STEP, so we leave them down after landing, taxiing, and when the bird is hangared. If the flaps are down, they can't be stepped on. The next time they move after landing is on the next flight during the pre-taxi checklist when they're moved up to takeoff position.
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I really should throw out most of my books but I can’t make myself do it. I keep thinking the power will go out long term and I’ll need my books again. Or like now, you never know when you want to refer to something in them again.
My father was a professor of linguistics from the older days and always had walls of books. He said that while he knew he had perhaps too many of them, on the other hand, when he was working on a project it was often the case that he would go looking and be able to find just the book he needed.
When I was first a professor we lived in a house where I had my office on the lower level. Just outside the office in the family room I had a large bookshelf full of textbooks, reference books, etc. I was preparing a course and one day I noticed that when I needed to look up some particular item for the lecture, it was actually quicker for me to do a Google search than to get up and go outside the office and get the appropriate textbook. This was around 2001 and Google was still fairly new. When we moved from that house I gave in to my wife's strong suggestion that perhaps some of the books could go. But over the years the collection has grown again and now spills into the garage...
Thanks again for your and your husband's efforts to find that one on gear and flap levers.
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My father was a professor of linguistics from the older days and always had walls of books. He said that while he knew he had perhaps too many of them, on the other hand, when he was working on a project it was often the case that he would go looking and be able to find just the book he needed.
When I was first a professor we lived in a house where I had my office on the lower level. Just outside the office in the family room I had a large bookshelf full of textbooks, reference books, etc. I was preparing a course and one day I noticed that when I needed to look up some particular item for the lecture, it was actually quicker for me to do a Google search than to get up and go outside the office and get the appropriate textbook. This was around 2001 and Google was still fairly new. When we moved from that house I gave in to my wife's strong suggestion that perhaps some of the books could go. But over the years the collection has grown again and now spills into the garage...
Thanks again for your and your husband's efforts to find that one on gear and flap levers.
My father was a professor too and had a big wall of books in his den. I am also an avid reader, though I’m not a professor (I only have three undergraduate degrees) but I continued as an autodidact on many subjects. The last house before this one had a huge built in bookcase along the largest wall in the main front room plus another full wall of bookshelves in a large back office. I went from there to here with a tiny office and a miniscule set of three shelves.
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My flaps come up on landing, to give more authority to the brakes. Of course, my flap release is a little knob and my gear is a giant bar, so confusion isn't terribly likely. The accident pilot isn't the first to run afoul of the Bo's poor design (how does anyone decide to put the flap and gear levers next to each other and make them look alike?), I heard about this situation 20 years ago. That said, lots of pilots have flown lots of Bos for lots of years without falling victim to it. Were I flying one of those I'd be particularly paranoid about which switch was which, and might even use Mr. Pou's solution.
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One thing to consider is if you need to put the flaps up after landing. Our flaps are NO STEP, so we leave them down after landing, taxiing, and when the bird is hangared. If the flaps are down, they can't be stepped on. The next time they move after landing is on the next flight during the pre-taxi checklist when they're moved up to takeoff position.
My A&P recommended putting flaps down before shutdown on my Navion, because (a) it helps getting on and off the wing with the rear step (a modification vs the original front step) and (b) it looks a little like its grandfather, the P-51 Mustang, which always lowers the flaps before shutdown.
However, I try not to taxi either flaps down. I’ll clean up after I turn off the runway and raise flaps for taxi, but I lower them before shutdown, or if I forget, I can use the hand hydraulic pump to put the flaps down.
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However, I try not to taxi either flaps down. I’ll clean up after I turn off the runway and raise flaps for taxi
In days of yore, and maybe even still, taxiing with flaps down was an indication to ATC that you have been hijacked or otherwise were experiencing "unlawful interference". Nowadays I suspect that it would generate no more interest than an automobile alarm.
Tim
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In days of yore, and maybe even still, taxiing with flaps down was an indication to ATC that you have been hijacked or otherwise were experiencing "unlawful interference". Nowadays I suspect that it would generate no more interest than an automobile alarm.
Tim
Seriously? To me it indicates I have an urgent and dire need to shut down and hit the beer fridge in my hangar.
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Seriously?
Some info on the subject from 1980:
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/orders/ps_orders/a_7110.49d.htm
I don't know how much, if any, of that is still in force.
Tim
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Some info on the subject from 1980:
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/orders/ps_orders/a_7110.49d.htm
I don't know how much, if any, of that is still in force.
Tim
Thanks Tim. I did not know that.
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A bit more of an update on this. I have been seriously training myself to not touch the flaps on roll-out for the last several weeks. Probably 20 landings now.
It is really going to take a while to break this habit acquired early in my training and reinforced in over 800 hours, I suppose over 1500 landings. While I have only touched the flaps on roll-out once in these landings, every single time I start to reach over to do it and then have to think - wait - don’t do that.
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A bit more of an update on this. I have been seriously training myself to not touch the flaps on roll-out for the last several weeks. Probably 20 landings now.
It is really going to take a while to break this habit acquired early in my training and reinforced in over 800 hours, I suppose over 1500 landings. While I have only touched the flaps on roll-out once in these landings, every single time I start to reach over to do it and then have to think - wait - don’t do that.
What do you fly Peter? I used to clean up flaps on the runway to reduce lift, which is pretty ridiculous in a Skyhawk where it doesn’t take much to come to a stop. When I started flying a 172RG, I had to break that habit as you are. Now with my own NAvion, I don’t touch shit until I clear the runway and then clean up.
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What do you fly Peter? I used to clean up flaps on the runway to reduce lift, which is pretty ridiculous in a Skyhawk where it doesn’t take much to come to a stop. When I started flying a 172RG, I had to break that habit as you are. Now with my own NAvion, I don’t touch shit until I clear the runway and then clean up.
A 1969 Cardinal. IIRC rolling out with flaps does make it more likely to skid. And the laminar wing is slick compared to the 172. In any case, I just have to break that habit.
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A 1969 Cardinal. IIRC rolling out with flaps does make it more likely to skid. And the laminar wing is slick compared to the 172. In any case, I just have to break that habit.
Do you mean skid as in a crosswind? In any decent crosswind I usually use at most partial flaps, and often no flaps.
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As the airplane slows, increase up elevator to place more weight on the mains and improve braking.
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Do you mean skid as in a crosswind? In any decent crosswind I usually use at most partial flaps, and often no flaps.
I mean skid as in wheels skidding on pavement when brakes applied.
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Newer flight instructors are unaware of aerodynamic braking and don’t teach it. In the earlier days of jet aviation brakes weren’t that good and tended to overheat, which in turn lessened brake capability.
Touch down and use the wings to help you slow down, while putting more down force on the mains.
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My last house before this one had a huge built in bookcase along the largest wall in the main front room plus another full wall of bookshelves in a large back office. I went from there to here with a tiny office and a miniscule set of three shelves.
Look familiar ?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211207/c125ad8331399da4d63c9edb571edb8d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211207/da9e43af346d59dad06d7e2ef68af71d.jpg)
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Look familiar ?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211207/c125ad8331399da4d63c9edb571edb8d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211207/da9e43af346d59dad06d7e2ef68af71d.jpg)
That’s it!! I still can’t find my copy. I NEVER would have got rid of it. It’s around here somewhere.
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Another update.
After about 50 landings in my Cardinal I feel like I am not at all temped to raise the flaps now after landing until after roll-out. And always confirm the shape of the flap handle and announce.
So I guess that is about the number of repetitions to undo primacy of learning for this this type of behavior.
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I've known about the piano key Bo's for a long time, don't know why you didn't, especially when flying one. Were I flying I'd be completely paranoid of flipping the wrong switch. I'd be so paranoid that I'd not touch the thing unless I was staring right at it. To put this in context, I'm paranoid about gear up landings, enough so that the gear comes down 3 miles from the airport. That means I have to configure the airplane prior to that, and I get majorly paranoid if anything goes wrong with that sequence, as in I turn around if the gear isn't out at 3 miles.
I would add that if you need to get the flaps up after landing to get more weight on the mains you're coming in too fast. Yeah, I've used that trick too, but I certainly don't depend on it. My apologies, but despite the long read you made a very common mistake based on your lack of understanding of the aircraft you were flying.
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I've known about the piano key Bo's for a long time, don't know why you didn't, especially when flying one. Were I flying I'd be completely paranoid of flipping the wrong switch. I'd be so paranoid that I'd not touch the thing unless I was staring right at it. To put this in context, I'm paranoid about gear up landings, enough so that the gear comes down 3 miles from the airport. That means I have to configure the airplane prior to that, and I get majorly paranoid if anything goes wrong with that sequence, as in I turn around if the gear isn't out at 3 miles.
I would add that if you need to get the flaps up after landing to get more weight on the mains you're coming in too fast. Yeah, I've used that trick too, but I certainly don't depend on it. My apologies, but despite the long read you made a very common mistake based on your lack of understanding of the aircraft you were flying.
My Navion’s gear and flap speed is 100mph, so it takes some finesse to get it slowed down with a big bore Continental up front. I’ve been working on getting the gear down closer to the airport so I’m not dragging it in from too far out.
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My Navion’s gear and flap speed is 100mph, so it takes some finesse to get it slowed down with a big bore Continental up front. I’ve been working on getting the gear down closer to the airport so I’m not dragging it in from too far out.
Place the prop full forward and reduce the throttle (MP) and that effectively acts like a speed brake, and will slow the plane down considerably.
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Place the prop full forward and reduce the throttle (MP) and that effectively acts like a speed brake, and will slow the plane down considerably.
I do that. If necessary I’ll drop 50-100’ below TPA and then pull back up to TPA. That little move can knock off the remaining 5-10mph needed to get slow.
I flew the Warbird Island arrival to OSH last year with an experienced warbird pilot buddy. (Previously I had flown the Fisk approach in a PT-26.) I was going to drop gear and a few miles out and he said I shouldn’t do that because there are some fast movers behind me on the WB arrival. He was right. I had plenty of time to get it slowed and down much closer to the airport.
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I've known about the piano key Bo's for a long time, don't know why you didn't, especially when flying one. Were I flying I'd be completely paranoid of flipping the wrong switch. I'd be so paranoid that I'd not touch the thing unless I was staring right at it. To put this in context, I'm paranoid about gear up landings, enough so that the gear comes down 3 miles from the airport. That means I have to configure the airplane prior to that, and I get majorly paranoid if anything goes wrong with that sequence, as in I turn around if the gear isn't out at 3 miles.
I would add that if you need to get the flaps up after landing to get more weight on the mains you're coming in too fast. Yeah, I've used that trick too, but I certainly don't depend on it. My apologies, but despite the long read you made a very common mistake based on your lack of understanding of the aircraft you were flying.
I was surprised to learn that a gear collapse is so common.
I don’t think it was so much a lack of knowledge but the primacy of the 900 hours in the Cardinal and having been taught to take the flaps up after landing right from the beginning. Combined with a lack of sufficient paranoia about going back and forth between the planes, as you note.
I say this because I noticed afterwards that in the Cardinal, even after I decided not to bring flaps up, I would tend to automatically start reaching. Took a while to break the habit. So either need to have the right habits that work in all the planes you fly or be sufficiently paranoid.
I have learned there is considerable debate in the community on the wisdom of this teaching. Some people say it is fine and dandy. Others not a good idea. I am presently in the latter camp now. Particularly if you are moving back and forth amongst types.
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I've known about the piano key Bo's for a long time, don't know why you didn't, especially when flying one.
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My apologies, but despite the long read you made a very common mistake based on your lack of understanding of the aircraft you were flying.
Such apologies will less often be necessary if one refrains from drawing negative conclusions without actually knowing the facts.
A 1977 V35B Bonanza does not have the “piano key” switches.
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I would add that if you need to get the flaps up after landing to get more weight on the mains you're coming in too fast.
My flaps come up on landing, to give more authority to the brakes.
Of course, it also helps to be consistent.
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I've known about the piano key Bo's for a long time, don't know why you didn't, especially when flying one. Were I flying I'd be completely paranoid of flipping the wrong switch. I'd be so paranoid that I'd not touch the thing unless I was staring right at it. To put this in context, I'm paranoid about gear up landings, enough so that the gear comes down 3 miles from the airport. That means I have to configure the airplane prior to that, and I get majorly paranoid if anything goes wrong with that sequence, as in I turn around if the gear isn't out at 3 miles.
I would add that if you need to get the flaps up after landing to get more weight on the mains you're coming in too fast. Yeah, I've used that trick too, but I certainly don't depend on it. My apologies, but despite the long read you made a very common mistake based on your lack of understanding of the aircraft you were flying.
On a straight in final, gear goes down on 3mi final. In the pattern, gear goes down abeam of the numbers. On an approach, gear goes down at the FAF.
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On a straight in final, gear goes down on 3mi final. In the pattern, gear goes down abeam of the numbers. On an approach, gear goes down at the FAF.
Too late. Something goes wrong in the pattern you can easily get distracted and leave the gear up. Everyone who has ever landed an airplane gear up said they'd never do it. If the gear isn't down by 3 miles I turn around, and I'm still paranoid about gear up landings. One happens just about every week done by someone who had ingrained habits and swore they'd never do it.
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Such apologies will less often be necessary if one refrains from drawing negative conclusions without actually knowing the facts.
A 1977 V35B Bonanza does not have the “piano key” switches.
My mistake, I honestly didn't think you were that stupid. Accidentally retracting the flaps on rollout with the piano keys is at least u understandable. Retracting them on any other Bo, where the flap and gear switches are in different places and very clearly marked is pretty careless. Did you get treated to a 709 ride after?
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Too late.
TEHO
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My mistake, I honestly didn't think you were that stupid.
Resorting to ad hominem attacks, making false assumptions, and being inconsistent in statements are all logical fallacies.
I am surprised Prof. Michael Weinstein to see this in an associate professor, but I guess that may be why you write under a pseudonym, rather than using your real name.
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Resorting to ad hominem attacks, making false assumptions, and being inconsistent in statements are all logical fallacies.
I am surprised Prof. Michael Weinstein to see this in an associate professor, but I guess that may be why you write under a pseudonym, rather than using your real name.
Exactly, and Micheal is not immune to landing issues as I recall.
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Exactly, and Micheal is not immune to landing issues as I recall.
Is that right? Interesting. Are there more details which would be useful for others to learn from?
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Is that right? Interesting. Are there more details which would be useful for others to learn from?
He can give the full details if he cares, but the TL;DR version is he porpoised the Mooney on landing and had a prop strike.
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He can give the full details if he cares, but the TL;DR version is he porpoised the Mooney on landing and had a prop strike.
I see. He mentioned that back in the old Air Wagner thread. Seems he was forthright about it and took a lot of training to improve. All good things.
What is honestly more puzzling to me is the constant fallacies in a person who has professional scientific training. But oh well, I digress from the main point here which was to possibly help others understand and avoid similar issues with gear collapses. Particularly if moving between different aircraft types.
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I see. He mentioned that back in the old Air Wagner thread. Seems he was forthright about it and took a lot of training to improve. All good things.
What is honestly more puzzling to me is the constant fallacies in a person who has professional scientific training. But oh well, I digress from the main point here which was to possibly help others understand and avoid similar issues.
I can address that. It’s the absent minded professor syndrome. My father had it. I suppose it would sound like bragging if I said I have it but I believe I do. I can be extremely blind and unperceptive about things around me because my mind is constantly occupied with complex analysis of some topic or another. I think it actually made me a worse pilot, because I tend to over analyze, rather than make quick decisions.
It also leads people to extrapolate all possible futures and hence have more anxiety than the average person about the various consequences of your action or inaction. You can then become overly focused on one thing or another, I believe Michael admits being “paranoid” about gear up landings. He doesn’t mean literal psychotic paranoia, but perhaps a bit closer to a neurotic obsession. Smart people can be quite high in neuroticism because they see reality with all its dangers more acutely than the “fat, dumb, and happy.”
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I can address that. It’s the absent minded professor syndrome. My father had it. I suppose it would sound like bragging if I said I have it but I believe I do. I can be extremely blind and unperceptive about things around me because my mind is constantly occupied with complex analysis of some topic or another. I think it actually made me a worse pilot, because I tend to over analyze, rather than make quick decisions.
It also leads people to extrapolate all possible futures and hence have more anxiety than the average person about the various consequences of your action or inaction. You can then become overly focused on one thing or another, I believe Michael admits being “paranoid” about gear up landings. He doesn’t mean literal psychotic paranoia, but perhaps a bit closer to a neurotic obsession. Smart people can be quite high in neuroticism because they see reality with all its dangers more acutely than the “fat, dumb, and happy.”
Rather insightful about the possible obsession on gear up landings. But does that explain the numerous fallacies of this nature on other topics?
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Discussion of Michael Weinstein's prop strike moved to its' own thread. http://www.pilotspin.com/index.php?topic=6303.0