PILOT SPIN

Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Mase on November 09, 2021, 09:00:30 AM

Title: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Mase on November 09, 2021, 09:00:30 AM
https://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/buttigieg-us-will-use-infrastructure-bill-to-address-racist-highway-design/TQRWQQM2DJFWXECAS2F4JAAUNI/
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 09, 2021, 09:04:13 AM
that's a particularly special use of the race card...
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: jb1842 on November 09, 2021, 09:32:14 AM
that's a particularly special use of the race card...

That's a particularly special use of the retard card.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 09, 2021, 09:32:48 AM
Is Redlining a historical fact? Yes or No? It's a fact. Did policies of the US Government in home loans intentionally create White Suburbia and Black Ghettoes? FACT.


Highway design is an outgrowth of the same mindset.


A few years ago, I sat on an airliner with a professor who had been given grant funds to report on the proliferation of noise pollution caused by major airports. He said it was accepted knowledge among their community that airport planners ignore chemical and noise pollution in approach paths of predominately black neighborhoods. He cited LAX as an example, complete with analyses of exhaust falls. This is considered common knowledge.


His work wasn't about the existence of such incidences of exhaust and noise issues, but about the GROWTH of it and the correlation to behavioral traits and crime rates and how policy should be altered to quietly correct this. I believe this is now part of the dataset of the Chemtrail crowd. Although they may not use the correct language, the concerns are scientifically valid.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jim Logajan on November 09, 2021, 09:49:21 AM
Racially motivated redlining happened. Whether it still happens for racial reasons is debatable. Whether it makes sense to spend billions tearing up roads merely to relocate them is doubly debatable.

As to airport runways: they have historically been designed to align with prevailing winds when possible:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/150_5300_13_part2.pdf (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/150_5300_13_part2.pdf)

Approach paths eventually line up with runways. Cause and effect are likely reversed with regard to racial disparities in that real estate under flight paths may be lower than average value due to the noise and therefore such properties are within the means of lower income groups.

I suspect circling approaches are equal-opportunity offenders.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 09, 2021, 10:17:02 AM
Is Redlining a historical fact? Yes or No? It's a fact. Did policies of the US Government in home loans intentionally create White Suburbia and Black Ghettoes? FACT.

Intentionally?  No, you'll need to show your work on that one. 

Suburbanization took off after WW-II.  Developers discovered they could mass produce neighborhoods.  Between 1945 and 1970, all house loans were performed by banks, so point #1 - what government policy directed banks to refuse house loans to people on the basis of being black? 

The policies the government created in that time period revolved around FHA mortgage insurance, low interest construction loans to builders, and housing standards for loans.  Because of standards such as setbacks, etc, favored single family homes in the suburbs, the loans backed by the FHA mortgage insurance favored the suburbs.  Point #2, what about these government policies discriminated against people on the basis of skin color? 

In both cases - yes, skin color correlated to wealth and these policies discriminated against being poor.  But it should be noted that they discriminated against poor whites and blacks equally. 

Now if you want to claim that discrimination on the basis of skin color existed in 1945, I will heartily agree.  The Klan was still very strong and organized and very active, but in decline.  People were idiots and segregation was the law in many places.  But these are not issues of government housing policy as you claimed, they were issues of individual bigotry and ignorance.   
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 09, 2021, 10:35:49 AM
Convenient access to major highways is essential for people to get to work and other travel, including Minorities and working poor.  To deny them this type of access would be wrong.  Near me there are several highways that go right through some of the most expensive and affluent Zip Codes in the U.S.  Is that racist? 

These people are MENTALLY ILL and grasping at even more straws purely to divide.    >:(
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 09, 2021, 10:36:36 AM
Is Redlining a historical fact? Yes or No? It's a fact. Did policies of the US Government in home loans intentionally create White Suburbia and Black Ghettoes? FACT.


Highway design is an outgrowth of the same mindset.


A few years ago, I sat on an airliner with a professor who had been given grant funds to report on the proliferation of noise pollution caused by major airports. He said it was accepted knowledge among their community that airport planners ignore chemical and noise pollution in approach paths of predominately black neighborhoods. He cited LAX as an example, complete with analyses of exhaust falls. This is considered common knowledge.


His work wasn't about the existence of such incidences of exhaust and noise issues, but about the GROWTH of it and the correlation to behavioral traits and crime rates and how policy should be altered to quietly correct this. I believe this is now part of the dataset of the Chemtrail crowd. Although they may not use the correct language, the concerns are scientifically valid.
It really drives me nuts when people go looking forward racism where it doesn’t exist. You diminish the meaning of the word. If everything is racist, then nothing is racist.

LAX was formed on 640 acres of wheat, barley and lima bean fields in 1928. LA’s population was about 1.2 million, and the black population was about 39,000. You really think they located the airport with race in mind? 

Butigeg’s suggestions are ridiculous.  The interstate system was created in the 1950s and 1960s. It brought interstate travel to all major cities.  If not for that system, some cities would remain islands with poor accessibility for visitors and residents alike.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 09, 2021, 01:20:23 PM
Is Redlining a historical fact? Yes or No? It's a fact. Did policies of the US Government in home loans intentionally create White Suburbia and Black Ghettoes? FACT.
Highway design is an outgrowth of the same mindset.


What utter bullshit.

Interstate Highways (A system create by Ike) were built where they were most needed AND where they were most likely to be needed.

Once liberal democrat, whiny assholes started freaking out about lost bribe opportunity, the system devolved into a patronage opportunity.

Your entire agenda is to promote racism and hate. Grow up.

Oh, wait.... You worship that hate monger, farrakhan. No wonder.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 09, 2021, 03:47:19 PM
Intentionally?  No, you'll need to show your work on that one.   
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/redlining.asp

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 09, 2021, 08:05:56 PM
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/redlining.asp

Fail.  This link does nothing except define what redlining was. 

What you don't seem to realize is that white people had this problem too.  Poor white neighborhoods were redlined too and I know because my grandfather could not buy a house in one...because it was a poor white immigrant slum that banks didn't want to invest in.  They wound up in a little two room shack on a farm way out of town and basically got by on subsistence farming, too poor to even have chickens.  After many years, they managed to get a house with indoor plumbing, but to the day she died, my grandmother worked a multi-acre garden so they could have food.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 09, 2021, 08:16:34 PM
Why do Leftist (anti American Marxists) continually dwell on the DISTANT PAST?  Is this a tactic to justify current division, lying and hypocrisy to attempt more angst and societal despair to affect public policy?

Or is it just more victimhood to further justify the above?  Jaybird care to answer?   ::)
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 10, 2021, 04:54:43 AM
If one can blame someone else, then they don't have to take responsibility for their own actions and consequences.

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 10, 2021, 05:24:21 AM
Slavery!!!!!


 ::)
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 10, 2021, 06:11:43 AM
Fail.  This link does nothing except define what redlining was. 

What you don't seem to realize is that white people had this problem too.  Poor white neighborhoods were redlined too and I know because my grandfather could not buy a house in one...because it was a poor white immigrant slum that banks didn't want to invest in.  They wound up in a little two room shack on a farm way out of town and basically got by on subsistence farming, too poor to even have chickens.  After many years, they managed to get a house with indoor plumbing, but to the day she died, my grandmother worked a multi-acre garden so they could have food.

Both sides are right in this thread. There was redlining and it did disproportionately affect blacks but it also affected poor whites. Many things that blacks call “racist” are actually “classist”.  It looks racist because when it affects the previously segregated black neighborhoods it’s very obvious, especially to blacks who understandably have preconceived expectations of racism for very real reasons. Poor whites are just an “also ran”.

The truth is, banks want profit and money is colorblind. As a group, blacks start out at a disadvantage because they don’t have the inherited wealth whites do. So banks used race as a marker for poverty and its accompanying reduced likelihood of paying back the loans. They also used white ethnicity such as the Irish. They weren’t actually wrong. Poor people are more likely to default on loans, let’s be real. Without owning any assets other than the one being used for collateral, you have no financial safety net.

But blacks tend to forget that not all whites inherited wealth either. Running alongside the persistent generations of black poverty is a corresponding class of white poverty from which it is just as hard to break out. True a white can put on a suit and tie and “pass” for a higher class of white, and it’s true that gave an advantage. But breaking out of poverty is not as simple as all you need to do is be white. Having white skin doesn’t raise your IQ, give you better nutrition, a better upbringing, less lead poisoning. When schools were segregated it might have given you a better education, but not if you dropped out because you got pregnant at 14 and lived with your grandmother because no men ever stick around to raise their children. Not surprisingly it turns out that having a good male role model seems key to having a chance at bettering your life. Most especially for men. Without quality men, you cannot have quality women and families. Without that, boys are funneled into crime and girls into early unwed motherhood in the “poor white trash” neighborhoods too. And the banks sure as hell didn’t lend to them either.

And the banks weren’t wrong. When loans are made to people unable to pay them back you get housing market crashes when all these loans default. The problem with redlining is you are judging everyone as a group rather than individuals. Within those poor areas there are individuals with the drive and ability to make it if only given a starting chance. That is the tragedy of racism, and classism, and sexism, and all cases of treating people as members of a group identity and not as individuals. The banks, like insurance companies, view you only as a statistic. So the individual with great potential remains stuck.

A pervasive problem in all humankind is class, much more than race. Where all people of a nation are one race, you still have this exact problem. Race is one factor and racism is real but it’s not the root problem, classism is.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 10, 2021, 08:19:41 AM
In school, I never heard of the Freedmans Bureau. I learned about it in my adulthood. Dr. Martin L King was assassinated shortly after he began talking about the economic policies that created poverty among Blacks and the false perversion of "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps". Very interesting research for anyone who wants to understand the history of real estate disparity in this country. It was America's first handout or hand-up program (depending upon one's viewpoint). Although it was conceived as a means of providing a viable route to economic participation for newly emancipated American Blacks, it became useless when the policies were ,modified to only lend money and give land in the midwest to newly immigrated White settlers and the Bureau was eventually abolished in controversy. So forgive me for looking side-eye at nearly any White mid-westerner who claims hard-work alone got them where they are.

My mother's parents owned large tracts of farmland in the south (nearly the entire county), which over time became less attractive for farming because of economic (tax) policies and...guess what good ole Southern Jim Crow tradition (terrorism). I grew up hearing stories of family members being kidnapped to be bought back with land deeds. Today, I don't believe there are any farmers in my family, lured away by the idea of a "good education" and white-collar or government jobs. Most of my family are blue collar, with a few government/ white collars here-there. My mother is moving there because of her fond childhood memories, she purchased only 1/4 acre to build a house and it's a 20min drive to the family area. There is no more inheritance.

The hardest hit real estate market of 2008 was in Prince Georges County, Maryland followed by Dekalb County, Georgia. PG county overtook Dekalb as the wealthiest county in the nation for Blacks sometime in the early 2000s. That wealth was largely in Home equity. PG County has a large contingent of mid-upper level Federal government employees and retired military, it's very much a social circle. Recovery in PG has lagged behind the rest of the country, even today in 2021. There's a new lawsuit I read about last week that alleges systematic depression of home valuations in the county with one litigant bringing receipts for the building costs of their $1.6m home that only appraised for $1.2m (IIRC).

The nationwide crash was caused by subprime lending (that went to everyone), the lure of interest only loans, with a flippers market run amok. There was a whistleblower inside Wells Fargo that pointed out specifically they had software that targeted Black and Brown borrowers who were likely to default with the subprime lending a major part of it..in PG County. The Obama administration sold out Black America by not making those impacted  a required recipient of indemnification measures.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 10, 2021, 10:14:12 AM

https://www.foxnews.com/media/pete-buttigieg-racist-bridges-washington-post

Quote
The Washington Post admitted Wednesday it was wrong to do a knee-jerk defense of Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg’s recent comment about racist highways and bridges.

"We should be more careful to double-check on the latest views of historians," Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler wrote.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 10, 2021, 10:15:38 AM
https://www.foxnews.com/media/pete-buttigieg-racist-bridges-washington-post
And in the Washington Post's defense, they are so used to doing knee-jerk defenses of Democrats it is hard for them to stop.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 10, 2021, 11:18:27 AM
“pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps”

Agreed. People who say that are saying it in a context that makes certain assumptions:

1. A strong free market economy that supports a large middle class, otherwise there is no level to pull yourself up to

2. No discrimination based on anything other than your ability

3. Having been raised with basic social skills that make you acceptable, such as good manners

4. Not having a congenital or environmentally caused disorder compromising your brain such as being born to a drug addicted mother

There are probably more. Given the above then yes, hard work will lead to wealth if you put the work into the right direction- you also have to be smart about what work you do. But the above assumptions are simply not reality for some people. And the first one is going to be bad for all people, except the already rich.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 10, 2021, 11:25:53 AM
2. No discrimination based on anything other than your ability

Nonsense.  Every member of my family has been discriminated against - for being a dumb coal mining Pole, for being Irish, for being Mormon, for being Catholic.  Like I said, people were idiots in the past and some are still idiots today. 

We were taught to deal with it by not dwelling on the past, but rather on what we can do today.  No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the past.  I credit that attitude with why I can afford to fly a little while paying for a college education.  If I wallowed over the injustices done to my dead ancestors, I'd be a basket case and would probably be blaming everyone else for my failures.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 10, 2021, 11:45:37 AM
Both sides are right in this thread. There was redlining and it did disproportionately affect blacks but it also affected poor whites. Many things that blacks call “racist” are actually “classist”.  It looks racist because when it affects the previously segregated black neighborhoods it’s very obvious, especially to blacks who understandably have preconceived expectations of racism for very real reasons. Poor whites are just an “also ran”.

The truth is, banks want profit and money is colorblind. As a group, blacks start out at a disadvantage because they don’t have the inherited wealth whites do. So banks used race as a marker for poverty and its accompanying reduced likelihood of paying back the loans. They also used white ethnicity such as the Irish. They weren’t actually wrong. Poor people are more likely to default on loans, let’s be real. Without owning any assets other than the one being used for collateral, you have no financial safety net.

But blacks tend to forget that not all whites inherited wealth either. Running alongside the persistent generations of black poverty is a corresponding class of white poverty from which it is just as hard to break out. True a white can put on a suit and tie and “pass” for a higher class of white, and it’s true that gave an advantage. But breaking out of poverty is not as simple as all you need to do is be white. Having white skin doesn’t raise your IQ, give you better nutrition, a better upbringing, less lead poisoning. When schools were segregated it might have given you a better education, but not if you dropped out because you got pregnant at 14 and lived with your grandmother because no men ever stick around to raise their children. Not surprisingly it turns out that having a good male role model seems key to having a chance at bettering your life. Most especially for men. Without quality men, you cannot have quality women and families. Without that, boys are funneled into crime and girls into early unwed motherhood in the “poor white trash” neighborhoods too. And the banks sure as hell didn’t lend to them either.

And the banks weren’t wrong. When loans are made to people unable to pay them back you get housing market crashes when all these loans default. The problem with redlining is you are judging everyone as a group rather than individuals. Within those poor areas there are individuals with the drive and ability to make it if only given a starting chance. That is the tragedy of racism, and classism, and sexism, and all cases of treating people as members of a group identity and not as individuals. The banks, like insurance companies, view you only as a statistic. So the individual with great potential remains stuck.

A pervasive problem in all humankind is class, much more than race. Where all people of a nation are one race, you still have this exact problem. Race is one factor and racism is real but it’s not the root problem, classism is.
But “classism” has nowhere near the volatile, angry, self-righteous, divisive quality of “racism.” 
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 10, 2021, 11:50:42 AM
Nonsense.  Every member of my family has been discriminated against - for being a dumb coal mining Pole, for being Irish, for being Mormon, for being Catholic.  Like I said, people were idiots in the past and some are still idiots today. 

We were taught to deal with it by not dwelling on the past, but rather on what we can do today.  No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the past.  I credit that attitude with why I can afford to fly a little while paying for a college education.  If I wallowed over the injustices done to my dead ancestors, I'd be a basket case and would probably be blaming everyone else for my failures.
An affront to one is an affront to all. While your ancestors didn't get certain things, it wasn't enshrined in law like it was for mine. While I'm free of that today, I recognize that tradition and culture takes longer to adjust. And people's attitudes and beliefs are colorful.


All services are in some fashion conducting a review of disparities. Military life is in many ways a microcosm of the society at large, but has a better chance at positive change because of the need for interdependence. The USAF recently published an addendum to their findings of 2020 (https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2839037/department-of-the-air-force-releases-addendum-to-disparity-review/). I believed someone on this thread decried 'always talking in historical context', well this is right now and the legacy and shortcomings of racism is still here. The AF is considered the best example of cultural improvement and fairness and if it exists there...


The Marine Corps was last to integrate and took Pres FD Roosevelt to get involved to make it happen. Do you think I saw things (relatively recently) that shaped my views of race relations in this country? You bet I did! Did I sit down and cry about it? No, so stop saying (implying) that.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 10, 2021, 11:55:34 AM
Agreed. People who say that are saying it in a context that makes certain assumptions:

1. A strong free market economy that supports a large middle class, otherwise there is no level to pull yourself up to

2. No discrimination based on anything other than your ability

3. Having been raised with basic social skills that make you acceptable, such as good manners

4. Not having a congenital or environmentally caused disorder compromising your brain such as being born to a drug addicted mother

There are probably more. Given the above then yes, hard work will lead to wealth if you put the work into the right direction- you also have to be smart about what work you do. But the above assumptions are simply not reality for some people. And the first one is going to be bad for all people, except the already rich.
Sorry, but I have to call BS on most of this.

Two things are required to DRASTICALLY increase your odds of being able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps:

1.  Graduate from high school.

2.  Grow up in a 2-parent household, or if an adult, create a 2-parent household.

Both of these tasks are directly in the hands of those deemed oppressed, and simply require willpower and determination.

Past grievances are simply an excuse for failure to change your life circumstances.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 10, 2021, 11:55:59 AM
Nonsense.  Every member of my family has been discriminated against - for being a dumb coal mining Pole, for being Irish, for being Mormon, for being Catholic.  Like I said, people were idiots in the past and some are still idiots today. 

We were taught to deal with it by not dwelling on the past, but rather on what we can do today.  No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the past.  I credit that attitude with why I can afford to fly a little while paying for a college education.  If I wallowed over the injustices done to my dead ancestors, I'd be a basket case and would probably be blaming everyone else for my failures.
Exactly right.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 10, 2021, 12:04:01 PM
Nonsense.  Every member of my family has been discriminated against - for being a dumb coal mining Pole, for being Irish, for being Mormon, for being Catholic.  Like I said, people were idiots in the past and some are still idiots today. 

We were taught to deal with it by not dwelling on the past, but rather on what we can do today.  No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the past.  I credit that attitude with why I can afford to fly a little while paying for a college education.  If I wallowed over the injustices done to my dead ancestors, I'd be a basket case and would probably be blaming everyone else for my failures.

I’m saying that people that say you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps are not considering a scenario of frank discrimination in the present.

I agree it doesn’t help to wallow in what happened to your dead ancestors, I’m talking about current circumstances such as if blacks were discriminated against in real estate lending. In fact, in corporate America hiring today, the present circumstance is discrimination against white males.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 10, 2021, 12:16:01 PM
But “classism” has nowhere near the volatile, angry, self-righteous, divisive quality of “racism.”

Exactly why today’s Marxists use race instead of class as their oppressed victims and they no more care about racial minorities than past Marxists cared about the poor classes.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 10, 2021, 12:20:11 PM
Where I lived many years ago was within walking distance of a sovereign border. I recall a conversation with an Auto insurance agent that my rates would have been drastically different had my residence been a few yards away. Was my real accident rate any different? Probably not.

We must resist the temptation to think that because a particular societal malady doesn't affect us personally that it must not exist. This is the worst type of logic that stymies any real discussion.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 10, 2021, 12:48:06 PM
While your ancestors didn't get certain things, it wasn't enshrined in law like it was for mine.

Some of it WAS enshrined in law.  It's not surprising that you aren't aware because they were discriminating against white people.  There is a reason the civil rights act of 1965 is not limited to race.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 10, 2021, 12:52:07 PM
I’m saying that people that say you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps are not considering a scenario of frank discrimination in the present.

I disagree that discrimination is prevalent enough in the present to create a situation where someone is prevented from achieving success. There are too many counter examples that disprove it.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 10, 2021, 12:57:26 PM
Some of it WAS enshrined in law.  It's not surprising that you aren't aware because they were discriminating against white people.  There is a reason the civil rights act of 1965 is not limited to race.
Are you Chinese or Native American? Those are the only other lawfully discriminated groups I'm aware of.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 10, 2021, 01:44:38 PM
Speaking of working to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, I want to respond to some of this but I actually have work I’m supposed to be doing.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 10, 2021, 01:49:28 PM
We must resist the temptation to think that because a particular societal malady doesn't affect us personally that it must not exist. This is the worst type of logic that stymies any real discussion.

worth repeating.

and applies to EVERY SINGLE PERSON

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 10, 2021, 02:02:51 PM
One of the best ways to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is to get a job.
Under Trump, black employment was at an all time high.  So why was he called a racist?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jim Logajan on November 10, 2021, 02:41:44 PM
None of my footwear have bootstraps - not even my hiking boots or my rubber boots (they look like Wellington boots - they just slip on and off.) So I am unable to pull myself up by my bootstraps. If I buy boots with bootstraps, do I then need a new rating or just a log-entry for training on pulling up?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 10, 2021, 03:14:12 PM
One of the best ways to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is to get a job.
Under Trump, black employment was at an all time high.  So why was he called a racist?

The scam civil rights movement has never been anything but an enshrined method of keeping minorities voluntarily down by making believe every failure to succeed is because of race and never because of lack of effort, creativity and independent action.

Just because some people discriminate has no bearing on ones ability to succeed, except in the mind of weaklings, racist civil rights whiners and government using racism to keep people from organizing and kicking their bigoted p, corrupt asses to the curb.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on November 10, 2021, 04:29:14 PM
Sorry, but I have to call BS on most of this.

Two things are required to DRASTICALLY increase your odds of being able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps:

1.  Graduate from high school.

2.  Grow up in a 2-parent household, or if an adult, create a 2-parent household.

Both of these tasks are directly in the hands of those deemed oppressed, and simply require willpower and determination.

Past grievances are simply an excuse for failure to change your life circumstances.

0. Don't get pregnant before you graduate from high school and get married.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on November 10, 2021, 04:31:21 PM
Where I lived many years ago was within walking distance of a sovereign border. I recall a conversation with an Auto insurance agent that my rates would have been drastically different had my residence been a few yards away. Was my real accident rate any different? Probably not.
That had nothing to do with accidents, it was theft and proximity to another jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 10, 2021, 04:48:45 PM
That had nothing to do with accidents, it was theft and proximity to another jurisdiction.
Oh, I get it now...there was a force field in place that the thieves couldn't penetrate. Why didn't I think of that.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 10, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Oh, I get it now...there was a force field in place that the thieves couldn't penetrate. Why didn't I think of that.

Insurance rates are higher in high theft, high accident Zip Codes.  It's just a fact.  Get over it.   ::)

It's about statistics and RISK. 
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 10, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
Oh, I get it now...there was a force field in place that the thieves couldn't penetrate. Why didn't I think of that.
You can’t be this naive. You can look at crime
Maps in the city of Chicago and see murders, rapes, car theft, and other crimes by ZIP code. Insurance companies have those same maps, and price their policies accordingly. Live in a high crime neighborhood?  Your rates will be high. Live in a low crime neighborhood, and your rates will be low.

My wife and I have never met our auto insurance agent in person. They have no idea about my skin color. Are you saying yours has, and priced it high because of the color of your skin?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 11, 2021, 03:18:28 AM
Are you Chinese or Native American? Those are the only other lawfully discriminated groups I'm aware of.

So by your admission, you are not aware there were past laws that discriminated against other groups, you think you, native Americans, and the Chinese are the only ones.   

Wearing blinders is no way to look at discrimination.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 11, 2021, 05:43:00 AM
You can’t be this naive. You can look at crime
Maps in the city of Chicago and see murders, rapes, car theft, and other crimes by ZIP code. Insurance companies have those same maps, and price their policies accordingly. Live in a high crime neighborhood?  Your rates will be high. Live in a low crime neighborhood, and your rates will be low.

My wife and I have never met our auto insurance agent in person. They have no idea about my skin color. Are you saying yours has, and priced it high because of the color of your skin?

It’s another case of grouping people by a marker and not considering individuals. The zip code total average crime rates may be true but maybe at one edge of the zip code adjoining another zip code there is a neighborhood straddling both that has crime the same no matter which side of the street your house is on.

Then again they do consider individuals also. Credit rating, age, marital status, although those are also group averages, the more they add the more they narrow you down. I think once in awhile they get down to the singular you. When we moved into this high risk hurricane zone, our homeowners insurer said they no longer insure any homes here, but in our case they would make an exception because we had been with them for forty years, have all our homes, autos and umbrella policies with them and made very few claims in all that time. They had already come out way ahead in premiums with us and were willing to continue gambling on us LOL!
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 11, 2021, 07:21:06 AM
apropos of some of the discussion is Today's (11 Nov 21) Dilbert
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 11, 2021, 08:10:48 AM
Sorry, but I have to call BS on most of this.

Two things are required to DRASTICALLY increase your odds of being able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps:

1.  Graduate from high school.

2.  Grow up in a 2-parent household, or if an adult, create a 2-parent household.

Both of these tasks are directly in the hands of those deemed oppressed, and simply require willpower and determination.

Past grievances are simply an excuse for failure to change your life circumstances.

How is what I said BS?  What you are saying is not pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. If you graduate from high school and have a 2 parent household, you start out with an advantage, a supportive foundation. That’s like a small launch force. I’m talking about the welfare class, the people with nothing, not even a stable home life. Those are the people most criticized for not somehow saving themselves.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 11, 2021, 08:56:18 AM
How is what I said BS?  What you are saying is not pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. If you graduate from high school and have a 2 parent household, you start out with an advantage, a supportive foundation. That’s like a small launch force. I’m talking about the welfare class, the people with nothing, not even a stable home life. Those are the people most criticized for not somehow saving themselves.
I’m saying virtually everything is within grasp for someone who wants better. Is it as easy as a prep school in the suburbs?  Of course not. But is graduating from high school within a teenager’s grasp?  Yes. Is not impregnating a teenage girl, or getting impregnated as a teenage girl, within the teenagers’ grasp?  Yes. Is avoiding drugs and avoiding being a gang member within a teenager’s grasp?  Yes. To say these aren’t is to condemn those people to a life of poverty and worse.

Throughout our lives our personal discipline gets challenged, at every corner.  Whether it’s having an Angel on one shoulder and the Devil on the other shoulder, we are all faced with the options of immediate gratification or deferred gratification.  Human free will doesn’t disappear just because some circumstances are tougher than others.

I went to a Catholic high school. My sophomore year we were playing a night game at Hanson Stadium, a Chicago public school stadium in Chicago. After we showered, we were supposed to sit in the visitor stands and watch the varsity play the next game. During the varsity game, a dozen teammates walked around the track to the far side to exit the stadium and get some booze, since some of them lived in that neighborhood. I walked with them. About 20 yards before the gate, I stopped and turned around. It wasn’t a moral decision, but it was a fear of getting caught, and the ramifications of that.

When we got back to our school, our AD Fr. King lined us all up and chewed our asses for about 30 minutes. We were all punished, and had to show up on Saturday (usually an off day after a game) and run for miles as punishment. But the dozen got it worse. They were kicked off the team.

Everything is a choice.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 11, 2021, 10:36:37 AM
I’m saying virtually everything is within grasp for someone who wants better. Is it as easy as a prep school in the suburbs?  Of course not. But is graduating from high school within a teenager’s grasp?  Yes. Is not impregnating a teenage girl, or getting impregnated as a teenage girl, within the teenagers’ grasp?  Yes. Is avoiding drugs and avoiding being a gang member within a teenager’s grasp?  Yes. To say these aren’t is to condemn those people to a life of poverty and worse.

Throughout our lives our personal discipline gets challenged, at every corner.  Whether it’s having an Angel on one shoulder and the Devil on the other shoulder, we are all faced with the options of immediate gratification or deferred gratification.  Human free will doesn’t disappear just because some circumstances are tougher than others.

It is a fact that personality, baseline intelligence, and characteristics such as impulsiveness play critical roles in the ability to make good choices, and much of that is either genetic or a result of very early (in utero and early childhood) environment. Not everyone is dealt the same cards. Those dealt bad cards can change and overcome but it’s not simply a matter of willpower, they need focused mentoring.

To say everything is within your grasp just because you want it is to ignore reality. Outside influences matter. Note that I said number 1 in my list is the most critical. Number 1 is a good overall economy with a strong middle class. Absent that, it’s hard enough even if you stick it out through high school and have two supportive parents. What happened historically does matter but the current economic situation matters even more. Despite the legacy of slavery, blacks were rising as long as the economy was strong, jobs were plentiful, and religious and family values were supported in the community, until certain things happened to remove those things.

The person who is able to go rags to riches despite extreme deprivation in childhood and multi-generational poverty is the rare exception.  But what you mean when you say anyone can succeed if you want it bad enough has to be, “given fertile ground”. Without fertile soil, no seed can grow.

This attitude that Jaybird’s “Midwestern white Protestants” (and white conservatives in general) have about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is in the context of post war prosperity with a powerful U.S. manufacturing base. Contributing is a strong Calvinistic work ethic. You might call those two things chicken and egg. We are now losing both and have been since the 60s.


Quote
I went to a Catholic high school. My sophomore year we were playing a night game at Hanson Stadium, a Chicago public school stadium in Chicago. After we showered, we were supposed to sit in the visitor stands and watch the varsity play the next game. During the varsity game, a dozen teammates walked around the track to the far side to exit the stadium and get some booze, since some of them lived in that neighborhood. I walked with them. About 20 yards before the gate, I stopped and turned around. It wasn’t a moral decision, but it was a fear of getting caught, and the ramifications of that.

When we got back to our school, our AD Fr. King lined us all up and chewed our asses for about 30 minutes. We were all punished, and had to show up on Saturday (usually an off day after a game) and run for miles as punishment. But the dozen got it worse. They were kicked off the team.

Everything is a choice.

Strong male guidance and discipline is mandatory for society.

At the personal level, not institutionalized authoritarianism of course.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nudnik on November 13, 2021, 07:21:02 AM
Fail.  This link does nothing except define what redlining was. 

What you don't seem to realize is that white people had this problem too.  Poor white neighborhoods were redlined too and I know because my grandfather could not buy a house in one...because it was a poor white immigrant slum that banks didn't want to invest in.  They wound up in a little two room shack on a farm way out of town and basically got by on subsistence farming, too poor to even have chickens.  After many years, they managed to get a house with indoor plumbing, but to the day she died, my grandmother worked a multi-acre garden so they could have food.

You can't just use the example of one person (on either side) to try to make a point.

Here are some numbers from 1990. Showing just the extremes but all the tables are in the link below:

Approval rate for a White person at < 80% of median income: 76.5%
Approval rate for a White person at > 120% of median income: 81.9%
Approval rate for a Black person at < 80% of median income: 58.5%
Approval rate for a Black person at > 120% of median income: 64.5%

Low income person in a predominantly white neighborhood: 75.3%
High income person in a predominantly white neighborhood: 79.7%
Low income person in a predominantly black neighborhood: 61.8%
High income person in a predominantly black neighborhood: 74.1%

In either case, high income black people on average had a harder time to secure loans than low income white people. There will obviously be outliers on both sides of the equation, but there's no use trying to deny the past.

Page 872 & 874:
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/FRB/1990s/frb_111991.pdf
 
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 13, 2021, 07:24:07 AM
correlation does not prove causation
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 13, 2021, 08:38:27 AM
You can't just use the example of one person (on either side) to try to make a point.

Here are some numbers from 1990. Showing just the extremes but all the tables are in the link below:

Approval rate for a White person at < 80% of median income: 76.5%
Approval rate for a White person at > 120% of median income: 81.9%
Approval rate for a Black person at < 80% of median income: 58.5%
Approval rate for a Black person at > 120% of median income: 64.5%

Low income person in a predominantly white neighborhood: 75.3%
High income person in a predominantly white neighborhood: 79.7%
Low income person in a predominantly black neighborhood: 61.8%
High income person in a predominantly black neighborhood: 74.1%

In either case, high income black people on average had a harder time to secure loans than low income white people. There will obviously be outliers on both sides of the equation, but there's no use trying to deny the past.

Page 872 & 874:
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/FRB/1990s/frb_111991.pdf
 

Income alone proves absolutely nothing. Net worth and credit history are given heavy weight in loan consideration. Blacks start with less assets (net worth) as a group, so data showing loans based only on income without adjusting for other factors imply racism where the true cause of lower loan rates is lower net worth. Page 868 talks about that. The lower net worth is due to past racism. That’s probably your point, when you say there’s no use trying to deny the past.

But he’s right that whites have the same problem. In fact, what are the absolute numbers? In absolute numbers there were probably many more whites denied loans than blacks, because whites make up a higher proportion of the population. If you wanted to design a policy that would help the most numbers of people, you would focus on helping whites before blacks. But that would be racist and wrong. Likewise it’s also racist to help blacks with no assets before helping whites with no assets. It’s wrong to put anyone before anyone else based only on skin color.

It doesn’t matter how you end up with no assets. That the black has no assets because his ancestors were slaves and the white has no assets because his ancestors were immigrants that came here with nothing, they still both end up the same. The myth that all European immigrants got off the boat with nothing and worked their way up to riches is just that, a myth. Being white gave them an advantage over a black but didn’t guarantee them a damn thing. Now are we going to say, “they had no obstacles because they’re white so they should have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps”?  If you say that are you implying whites have the magic ability to do this physically impossible feat but blacks don’t?

Although many didn’t, many other white immigrants made it into the middle class and so did many blacks despite the legacy of slavery and were doing so even in the era of segregation. Many were making it into the educated and professional classes, because all of them were taking advantage of the fertile soil of the United States prosperity.

The answer for all races is a strong economy with a strong middle class meaning job availability. The biggest causes of loan default are job loss, divorce and market crash causing your equity to go negative. A strong economy and a stable society greatly improves everyone’s chance of achieving home ownership.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 13, 2021, 09:31:16 AM
In school, I never heard of the Freedmans Bureau. I learned about it in my adulthood. Dr. Martin L King was assassinated shortly after he began talking about the economic policies that created poverty among Blacks and the false perversion of "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps".
A job is the best way to provide a rope for someone to pull themselves up.  If you have a job you learn that if work extra hours you earn more and if you do a good job you may get promoted, or get more merit increases, or you find that it is easier to find a better paying job.

Welfare, foodstamps and other social programs remove the incentive to work and destroy the work ethic.  It is those nice, kind, thoughtful democrats that think they have to help the poor negro because they (negros) can't help themselves that are perpetuating poverty and dependency among blacks.

When Trump was President, employment among blacks was the highest EVER.  That is how you help blacks to help themselves.

In the past, racism and discrimination was a severe roadblock.  These days it still exists, but it is a relative bump in the road.  There is also the thought that if you make things easy for people, they become weak and soft.  I see that among lots of white people.  If people have to struggle (assuming they don't just quit), then they become stronger and more independent.

Past discrimination was a terrible thing and a blot on our history.  Progress is being made, or at least it was until the "woke" crowd began telling everyone how mean and racist whites are.  That just sets up a dividing line and people feel they have to retrench to their own side.  It does nothing to help mend the fences and promote progress.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 13, 2021, 10:10:41 AM
Race is being used by the ruling class to divide us and prevent us from joining together to disempower them. The last thing the Democrats and establishment Republicans, along with their corporate donors, want is for whites and blacks to get along. We have a common enemy and it’s not each other.



Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President in Exile YOLT on November 13, 2021, 11:44:43 AM
Race is being used by the ruling class to divide us and prevent us from joining together to disempower them. The last thing the Democrats and establishment Republicans, along with their corporate donors, want is for whites and blacks to get along. We have a common enemy and it’s not each other.

That red thing looks a lot like Soros.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 13, 2021, 12:14:56 PM
Race is being used by the ruling class to divide us and prevent us from joining together to disempower them. The last thing the Democrats and establishment Republicans, along with their corporate donors, want is for whites and blacks to get along. We have a common enemy and it’s not each other.

^^^^^^^^This!
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 17, 2021, 02:55:01 PM
So by your admission, you are not aware there were past laws that discriminated against other groups, you think you, native Americans, and the Chinese are the only ones.   

Wearing blinders is no way to look at discrimination.
Answer the question or move on
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 17, 2021, 03:03:10 PM
Answer the question or move on

Get a grip, Frances…
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 17, 2021, 03:16:30 PM
I’m saying virtually everything is within grasp for someone who wants better....

Throughout our lives our personal discipline gets challenged, at every corner.  Whether it’s having an Angel on one shoulder and the Devil on the other shoulder, we are all faced with the options of immediate gratification or deferred gratification.  Human free will doesn’t disappear just because some circumstances are tougher than others.

I went to a Catholic high school. My sophomore year we were playing a night game at Hanson Stadium, a Chicago public school stadium in Chicago. After we showered, we were supposed to sit in the visitor stands and watch the varsity play the next game. During the varsity game, a dozen teammates walked around the track to the far side to exit the stadium and get some booze, since some of them lived in that neighborhood. I walked with them. About 20 yards before the gate, I stopped and turned around. It wasn’t a moral decision, but it was a fear of getting caught, and the ramifications of that.

When we got back to our school, our AD Fr. King lined us all up and chewed our asses for about 30 minutes. We were all punished, and had to show up on Saturday (usually an off day after a game) and run for miles as punishment. But the dozen got it worse. They were kicked off the team.

Everything is a choice.


While everything is a choice, we are sometimes not in control of the outcome of those choices, which sometime are disparate.


I hooked school twice in my life. I got caught both times and didn't get to execute the second one, just barely made it out of the door before being caught by "The Colonel".


The first one, I was invited to hang out with "the cool kids" who would go to Mary's house. Crystal's mom thought her daughter was with us and demanded that we open the door to get her daughter. AFAIK, Crystal was an A-student.


Most of us were doing well in school, none were trouble makers, but it was a social class in our inner-city school with the bad reputation. Consequently because of that reputation, school administration, et al usually came down with both feet on any infractions. I also was made 2 years prior to serve a week's in-school suspension for (self-defense) fighting.


Back to the story: Crystal's mom was SERIOUS and somehow the cops were called. I recall running through an open field, moving around buildings and hiding in an effort to not get caught, while I was thinking about the possibility of losing any opportunity to apply to "The Academy" if I had an arrest record.


Somehow the names of those involved made it back to the Colonel and he exacted his form of discipline on us, which was merciful enough to not damage any of our futures. I'm sure it would have been different had the cops caught us or the school administration knows
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 17, 2021, 08:26:04 PM

While everything is a choice, we are sometimes not in control of the outcome of those choices, which sometime are disparate.


I hooked school twice in my life. I got caught both times and didn't get to execute the second one, just barely made it out of the door before being caught by "The Colonel".


The first one, I was invited to hang out with "the cool kids" who would go to Mary's house. Crystal's mom thought her daughter was with us and demanded that we open the door to get her daughter. AFAIK, Crystal was an A-student.


Most of us were doing well in school, none were trouble makers, but it was a social class in our inner-city school with the bad reputation. Consequently because of that reputation, school administration, et al usually came down with both feet on any infractions. I also was made 2 years prior to serve a week's in-school suspension for (self-defense) fighting.


Back to the story: Crystal's mom was SERIOUS and somehow the cops were called. I recall running through an open field, moving around buildings and hiding in an effort to not get caught, while I was thinking about the possibility of losing any opportunity to apply to "The Academy" if I had an arrest record.


Somehow the names of those involved made it back to the Colonel and he exacted his form of discipline on us, which was merciful enough to not damage any of our futures. I'm sure it would have been different had the cops caught us or the school administration knows

I have a story about social class in the inner city and the Jack and Jill club but I’ll save it for later.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 17, 2021, 09:38:16 PM

While everything is a choice, we are sometimes not in control of the outcome of those choices, which sometime are disparate.


I hooked school twice in my life. I got caught both times and didn't get to execute the second one, just barely made it out of the door before being caught by "The Colonel".


The first one, I was invited to hang out with "the cool kids" who would go to Mary's house. Crystal's mom thought her daughter was with us and demanded that we open the door to get her daughter. AFAIK, Crystal was an A-student.


Most of us were doing well in school, none were trouble makers, but it was a social class in our inner-city school with the bad reputation. Consequently because of that reputation, school administration, et al usually came down with both feet on any infractions. I also was made 2 years prior to serve a week's in-school suspension for (self-defense) fighting.


Back to the story: Crystal's mom was SERIOUS and somehow the cops were called. I recall running through an open field, moving around buildings and hiding in an effort to not get caught, while I was thinking about the possibility of losing any opportunity to apply to "The Academy" if I had an arrest record.


Somehow the names of those involved made it back to the Colonel and he exacted his form of discipline on us, which was merciful enough to not damage any of our futures. I'm sure it would have been different had the cops caught us or the school administration knows
So the problem was the mom and the police and the colonel, and not YOUR choice to play hooky?

Sounds familiar to what we are constantly hearing today.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 18, 2021, 04:27:52 AM
You can't just use the example of one person (on either side) to try to make a point.

Here are some numbers from 1990. Showing just the extremes but all the tables are in the link below:

Approval rate for a White person at < 80% of median income: 76.5%
Approval rate for a White person at > 120% of median income: 81.9%
Approval rate for a Black person at < 80% of median income: 58.5%
Approval rate for a Black person at > 120% of median income: 64.5%

Low income person in a predominantly white neighborhood: 75.3%
High income person in a predominantly white neighborhood: 79.7%
Low income person in a predominantly black neighborhood: 61.8%
High income person in a predominantly black neighborhood: 74.1%

In either case, high income black people on average had a harder time to secure loans than low income white people. There will obviously be outliers on both sides of the equation, but there's no use trying to deny the past.

Page 872 & 874:
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/publications/FRB/1990s/frb_111991.pdf
 

The data is over 30 years old. 

If you read the text, it explains that denied loans were lower in low income neighborhoods.  That explains the reason, not that the applicants had a particular skin color.   The discrimination is not against race, but against the location of the property. The mortgage lender did not want the property if the borrower defaulted.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 18, 2021, 05:03:53 AM
So the problem was the mom and the police and the colonel, and not YOUR choice to play hooky?

Sounds familiar to what we are constantly hearing today.

I played hooky and got away with it way more than twice.  I went to a “good” school in a “good” neighborhood and was a white female. It was very unlikely I would have been arrested or harshly disciplined or made an example of, unless I’d been caught committing a crime, and even then I would likely have been treated leniently. There is a systemic inequity applied to individuals within the stereotype groups “young black male in a bad neighborhood” and “young white female in a good neighborhood” even if we had both been A students and did the same behaviors. The consequences if caught committing teenage foolishness are applied to the individual in the broader context of groups and that is the disparate outcome of our choice to which Jaybird refers.

I didn’t grow up black or male or in an inner city social class of “bad reputation” but if I understand what it was like to do so, on top of normal adolescent problems, you had the additional layer of worry that you had a high statistical likelihood of ending up in legal trouble affecting your whole future or even physical danger, way above what a white girl in a “good” neighborhood would worry about.

Parents were even more keenly aware of these things, hence how the “Colonel” dealt with his son (I presume that was your father, Jaybird?). My reference to the Jack and Jill club, it was one way black parents attempted to protect their children, especially before desegregation, from being caught up in “the system”.

Maybe my solution to this disparity differs from BLM’s solution but I go beyond simply expecting immature youths (of any race or gender) to have all the wisdom needed to avoid these pitfalls. We all lucked out and survived stupid youth. Black males in the hood might have a higher likelihood of not, but that didn’t mean I survived because I made all good choices. I did plenty of massively stupid things but got lucky. Using the Swiss cheese metaphor for plane crashes, one of my slices of Swiss cheese had no hole and stopped the chain of events, that was the slice that had a hole if you were a black male in a certain neighborhood.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: texasag93 on November 18, 2021, 05:15:39 AM
I had never heard of Jack and Jill of America.

I looked them up and it looks like a good program.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 18, 2021, 06:19:23 AM
I played hooky and got away with it way more than twice.  I went to a “good” school in a “good” neighborhood and was a white female. It was very unlikely I would have been arrested or harshly disciplined or made an example of, unless I’d been caught committing a crime, and even then I would likely have been treated leniently. There is a systemic inequity applied to individuals within the stereotype groups “young black male in a bad neighborhood” and “young white female in a good neighborhood” even if we had both been A students and did the same behaviors. The consequences if caught committing teenage foolishness are applied to the individual in the broader context of groups and that is the disparate outcome of our choice to which Jaybird refers.

I didn’t grow up black or male or in an inner city social class of “bad reputation” but if I understand what it was like to do so, on top of normal adolescent problems, you had the additional layer of worry that you had a high statistical likelihood of ending up in legal trouble affecting your whole future or even physical danger, way above what a white girl in a “good” neighborhood would worry about.

Parents were even more keenly aware of these things, hence how the “Colonel” dealt with his son (I presume that was your father, Jaybird?). My reference to the Jack and Jill club, it was one way black parents attempted to protect their children, especially before desegregation, from being caught up in “the system”.

Maybe my solution to this disparity differs from BLM’s solution but I go beyond simply expecting immature youths (of any race or gender) to have all the wisdom needed to avoid these pitfalls. We all lucked out and survived stupid youth. Black males in the hood might have a higher likelihood of not, but that didn’t mean I survived because I made all good choices. I did plenty of massively stupid things but got lucky. Using the Swiss cheese metaphor for plane crashes, one of my slices of Swiss cheese had no hole and stopped the chain of events, that was the slice that had a hole if you were a black male in a certain neighborhood.
I grew up in a middle class neighborhood in a largely Polish neighborhood in the city of Chicago.  I didn’t grow up in the hood, and I’m not sure Jaybird did either.

I don’t buy this systemic bias bullshit. I buy only situational bias.  If you are in a high crime neighborhood, you will likely and correctly get higher police scrutiny. If you are in a relatively low crime area, like my old Polish neighborhood, police had less of a presence, though they still ran patrols.

If I read JB’s situation, police didn’t get involved because they were playing hooky. Police got involved because the mother thought that they were holding a girl against her will. If that happened in my Polish neighborhood, police would be all over that too.  Why?  Because it’s situational.

I’m fatigued by so many people turning STRAIGHT to race when Occam’s Razor says it’s something simpler like the higher existence of crime. 
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 18, 2021, 06:26:41 AM
Proclaiming racism every time you don't get your way is the coward's way out.

These days coward race whores outnumber the rest of us 1000 to 1.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 18, 2021, 07:44:52 AM
I grew up in a middle class neighborhood in a largely Polish neighborhood in the city of Chicago.  I didn’t grow up in the hood, and I’m not sure Jaybird did either.

I don’t buy this systemic bias bullshit. I buy only situational bias.  If you are in a high crime neighborhood, you will likely and correctly get higher police scrutiny. If you are in a relatively low crime area, like my old Polish neighborhood, police had less of a presence, though they still ran patrols.

If I read JB’s situation, police didn’t get involved because they were playing hooky. Police got involved because the mother thought that they were holding a girl against her will. If that happened in my Polish neighborhood, police would be all over that too.  Why?  Because it’s situational.

I’m fatigued by so many people turning STRAIGHT to race when Occam’s Razor says it’s something simpler like the higher existence of crime.
You seem hell-bent on proving that your way is the only and correct way of seeing things. Sorry to disagree with your version of the world, but this is how injustice persists. People of good-will who do nothing, claiming they see nothing.


Actually, I did grow up "in the hood". And Crystal's mom, I'm not in her head, but was likely convinced there was something nefarious going on but it certainly didn't rise to the level of a lights and sirens multiple police car chase. Why did the police take this response?


Now that my memory came back from so many years ago (and the battery in my solar keyboard), Crystal would have been a Sophomore that year while most of us were Juniors. Crystal was such a good student that she graduated as a Junior with us the following year. All of us graduated and went on in our lives, many of them I'm keep in touch with via social media and they're doing well in life (of varying degrees).


Why did they (police) allocate such resources? Nobody was killed, nor was there drugs or alchohol (or even cigarettes) involved in our group. Looking back, I don't think anyone would have even gotten naked that day either (LoL), though I was invited by the girl who would later become my girlfriend (for about a month or a little more, an eternity at that age- LoL).


Rush- The man referred to as Colonel, wasn't my father but a retired Greek-American military officer who was one of our teachers. He was a strict disciplinarian, growing up poor himself in the Bronx, but he didn't tell the school officials about that day, probably knowing they'd flip out. I'm sure the investigation started with Crystal's mom walking across the street to the school.


If anyone had a reason to complain it was Mary's mom, who was at work while her teenage daughter used her home to host other teenagers. It was teenagers doing what teenagers do, but it didn't warrant the response we got (from the police).
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 18, 2021, 09:52:05 AM
I grew up in a middle class neighborhood in a largely Polish neighborhood in the city of Chicago.  I didn’t grow up in the hood, and I’m not sure Jaybird did either.

I don’t buy this systemic bias bullshit. I buy only situational bias.  If you are in a high crime neighborhood, you will likely and correctly get higher police scrutiny. If you are in a relatively low crime area, like my old Polish neighborhood, police had less of a presence, though they still ran patrols.

If I read JB’s situation, police didn’t get involved because they were playing hooky. Police got involved because the mother thought that they were holding a girl against her will. If that happened in my Polish neighborhood, police would be all over that too.  Why?  Because it’s situational.

I’m fatigued by so many people turning STRAIGHT to race when Occam’s Razor says it’s something simpler like the higher existence of crime.

Race is one of many factors. There were also “bad white trash” neighborhoods in the city where I grew up. One of my sisters got involved with a family there. I heard from both sides, from her, and from an assistant DA who prosecuted several members of the family. Those neighborhoods were also targeted by law enforcement. Was it because of higher crime there? Or was it because the police expected malicious intent? Chicken and egg. Look for crime and you’ll find it. You’ll bust the teen for buying pot on the street in the hood, white and black, but the teen in suburbia will get away with it, simply because the police aren’t looking for it. Experimenting with pot leads to lifelong criminal record for poor kid, no consequence at all for rich or middle class kid (unless they go on to make drugs a habit). Yes, choosing to try drugs is a bad choice, but that gets us back to kids do stupid stuff, but the consequences they do or don’t face vary due to circumstances beyond their control.

My issue with race is that there are other things besides race that cause the same bad outcomes, but some political groups seem to blame only race, seemingly ignoring other factors that keep blacks down, or that keep whites down, and it seems that the plight of poor whites is often completely ignored, as if it doesn’t exist.

As I have said before, the bigger issue is class, not race. If it were only race, then there should be no poor whites at all. They weren’t physically segregated like blacks were prior to the 60s. They were free to move out of downtown, get a higher paying job and so forth. Why didn’t they? And blacks, when segregated, had class stratification within the race. Indeed the Jack and Jill club has been accused of being exclusionary, only accepting the “uppity” blacks. Back in the 40s and 50s with no choice but to live where you lived, that was how those of higher class protected their children from the more violent elements.

There does seem to be an association between poverty and criminal violence. There is justification for more police presence. Like I said, chicken and egg, it’s not easy to sort out how much is discrimination and how much is necessary law and order.  But my opinion is that factors such as poor nutrition and genetic disadvantages figure very strongly in the reasons poor people stay poor, possibly much more than race. If it were only race, then how did the higher class blacks rise at all, as they did starting right after the Emancipation?

It’s not politically correct to talk about it, but there are inborn differences in intelligence and personality. Mental disorders figure prominently in the criminal class, and are more prevalent among the poor. It’s one reason they stay poor. This affects all races. All races have individuals across the entire spectrum of intelligence and mental health. You can argue nature vs nurture but that doesn’t change the facts. My approach is the solution to elevating the poor classes (of all races) is 1. Must have a strong economy with jobs otherwise there is nowhere to elevate them to, and 2. Do a much better job identifying the reasons they stay unable to function, hold down a job, stay away from drugs, and so on. For example, drug use is often an attempt to self medicate depression. Drug sales is often the only option to earn money. Instead of spotlighting racism and stopping there, we should be focusing on all these other contributing factors.

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 18, 2021, 11:17:15 AM
You seem hell-bent on proving that your way is the only and correct way of seeing things. Sorry to disagree with your version of the world, but this is how injustice persists. People of good-will who do nothing, claiming they see nothing.


Actually, I did grow up "in the hood". And Crystal's mom, I'm not in her head, but was likely convinced there was something nefarious going on but it certainly didn't rise to the level of a lights and sirens multiple police car chase. Why did the police take this response?


Now that my memory came back from so many years ago (and the battery in my solar keyboard), Crystal would have been a Sophomore that year while most of us were Juniors. Crystal was such a good student that she graduated as a Junior with us the following year. All of us graduated and went on in our lives, many of them I'm keep in touch with via social media and they're doing well in life (of varying degrees).


Why did they (police) allocate such resources? Nobody was killed, nor was there drugs or alchohol (or even cigarettes) involved in our group. Looking back, I don't think anyone would have even gotten naked that day either (LoL), though I was invited by the girl who would later become my girlfriend (for about a month or a little more, an eternity at that age- LoL).


Rush- The man referred to as Colonel, wasn't my father but a retired Greek-American military officer who was one of our teachers. He was a strict disciplinarian, growing up poor himself in the Bronx, but he didn't tell the school officials about that day, probably knowing they'd flip out. I'm sure the investigation started with Crystal's mom walking across the street to the school.


If anyone had a reason to complain it was Mary's mom, who was at work while her teenage daughter used her home to host other teenagers. It was teenagers doing what teenagers do, but it didn't warrant the response we got (from the police).
What I’m hell bent on is not bowing on bent knee over perceived injustices that occurred in the past. I’m not blind to some injustices that exist today. I see injustice occurring today in a courthouse in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

But what I reject is people who make race the excuse de jur for bad behavior, lawlessness, and worse.

The talking heads in August 2020 called Kyle Rittenhouse a racist and white supremacist, with no basis whatsoever.  The utter definition of Libel and slander.

The mob bullied a Democrat DA to filing charges. Why?  Because Kyle shot criminals who were on the mob’s side.

Now 15 months later, with every video and picture available to him, the same leftist mobs are still calling him a racist and white supremacist, and are calling for him to spend the rest of his life in prison for what any sane person can see is self defense. That’s injustice.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 18, 2021, 12:12:56 PM
What I’m hell bent on is not bowing on bent knee over perceived injustices that occurred in the past. I’m not blind to some injustices that exist today. I see injustice occurring today in a courthouse in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

But what I reject is people who make race the excuse de jur for bad behavior, lawlessness, and worse.

The talking heads in August 2020 called Kyle Rittenhouse a racist and white supremacist, with no basis whatsoever.  The utter definition of Libel and slander.

The mob bullied a Democrat DA to filing charges. Why?  Because Kyle shot criminals who were on the mob’s side.

Now 15 months later, with every video and picture available to him, the same leftist mobs are still calling him a racist and white supremacist, and are calling for him to spend the rest of his life in prison for what any sane person can see is self defense. That’s injustice.

While I acknowledge Jaybird’s experience is real and that race is a real factor, I do agree with what you say here, and this is why: These leftist mobs who scream “Racism! White supremacist! Reparations!” have no logical solution whatsoever other than the implication that wealth must be taken from whites and given to blacks. Furthermore, whites must, as you say, bow on bent knee groveling for forgiveness. An honest black person, capable of empathy, that is, putting yourself in someone else’s shoes, would admit that were the situation reversed and he were being asked to bow and grovel before another group for the sins of his ancestors, and have his assets raided to give over to strangers, he would certainly balk at it. In fact, he would resent it. Anyone would. Except I suppose those who get a kick out of groveling submissively before a master. And that’s the insinuation. The leftist Marxist mob (mostly white by the way) want you to elevate black to Master and white to slave, or that’s what they steer you to accept with your cult devotion to the social justice cause. What they really want is to consolidate their own power into a centralized authority and take that reparations wealth to themselves, establish a ruling class, again, mostly white, that will oppress ALL of us commoners black and white alike.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 18, 2021, 02:18:14 PM
While I acknowledge Jaybird’s experience is real and that race is a real factor, I do agree with what you say here, and this is why: These leftist mobs who scream “Racism! White supremacist! Reparations!” have no logical solution whatsoever other than the implication that wealth must be taken from whites and given to blacks. Furthermore, whites must, as you say, bow on bent knee groveling for forgiveness. An honest black person, capable of empathy, that is, putting yourself in someone else’s shoes, would admit that were the situation reversed and he were being asked to bow and grovel before another group for the sins of his ancestors, and have his assets raided to give over to strangers, he would certainly balk at it. In fact, he would resent it. Anyone would. Except I suppose those who get a kick out of groveling submissively before a master. And that’s the insinuation. The leftist Marxist mob (mostly white by the way) want you to elevate black to Master and white to slave, or that’s what they steer you to accept with your cult devotion to the social justice cause. What they really want is to consolidate their own power into a centralized authority and take that reparations wealth to themselves, establish a ruling class, again, mostly white, that will oppress ALL of us commoners black and white alike.
Exactly. I will just add that it’s not wealth they they want from whites; it’s also pride, dignity, self worth and love of self. They’ll take away pride of country while they’re at it, since that’s what too many whites seem to like.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 18, 2021, 02:57:06 PM
While I acknowledge Jaybird’s experience is real and that race is a real factor

I'm not convinced race is a real factor anymore.  I do believe it's a historical factor, but it's so highlighted today that if anything, it is overcompensated.

There is a predictor to being poor which you didn't mention:  if your parents were poor.  Poverty is inherited, just not genetically.  Living in poverty teaches you that the source of support is welfare and too many never get past that.  You can say that's intentionally done by Democrats or an unintended consequence of the welfare system, but it's a reality.

But by far, the most important element to work success has traditionally been school success.  If someone has the focus and will to go through school and do well, they have characteristics that employees want - punctuality, ability to get along, ability to learn, willingness to work in the routine.  We know from statistics that black students don't do as well, but the reason is not well determined.  I reject that teachers are racist, even unconsciously.  I believe there must be other elements such as culture or external stresses that distract the student.  Rich kids - have to worry if they're getting a car for their 16th birthday.  Poor kids have to worry if they'll be alive on their 16th birthday.  Who is going to be a better student?

Answers?  Integration is one, but it can't just be putting kids in the same school, you have to set things up for them to work together.  Better schools that teach academics and not social justice is a huge one.  Kids can sniff out BS a mile away and teachers will fail if they try to spread it.  Other answers?  I'm sure they're out there, not going into more depth right now.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 18, 2021, 04:39:18 PM
The last thing the civil rights whores want is for black students and white students to succeed by working together.

The single biggest factor in trapping people in poverty and keeping them there has been the lack of accountability with regard to young black men knocking up women with no intention of ever participating in supporting them, raising them, guiding them and pushing them to succeed.

Somehow expecting and demanding accountability has become racist, which has resulted in generational failure to succeed. And it's getting worse.

Then, Black on black violence is an epidemic no one is supposed to notice. It is now racist to point out that blacks who make up 13% of the population are responsible for over 75% of murders and the vast majority of that is black on black violence. only when black men stop stop killing other blacks, will that crisis start to go away.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 19, 2021, 05:20:06 AM
The last thing the civil rights whores want is for black students and white students to succeed by working together.

The single biggest factor in trapping people in poverty and keeping them there has been the lack of accountability with regard to young black men knocking up women with no intention of ever participating in supporting them, raising them, guiding them and pushing them to succeed.

Somehow expecting and demanding accountability has become racist, which has resulted in generational failure to succeed. And it's getting worse.

Then, Black on black violence is an epidemic no one is supposed to notice. It is now racist to point out that blacks who make up 13% of the population are responsible for over 75% of murders and the vast majority of that is black on black violence. only when black men stop stop killing other blacks, will that crisis start to go away.

I agree, absence of fathers is the biggest problem. But blacks used to have a high marriage rate and strong families. What happened in the cities?  While I hold individuals themselves accountable I also hold the government accountable for making single mothers dependent on them instead of a man, and for policy that gets rid of jobs in the cities. There’s also the drug war which has accomplished only putting profit in the hands of the prison system and not done a single thing to prevent drug abuse. My assertion is that these things are NOT racism. As I keep saying, they affect poor whites the same way. Yes there’s the assertion that crack cocaine is racist. There is a difference between deliberate racism and racial disparity resulting from something that was actually motivated by profit.

Note this article was written 6 years ago (a lot of woke has happened in 6 years) and references a paper written 50 years ago. Despite it being written by Moynihan, he gets some things right.

https://reason.com/2015/02/26/the-black-family-in-1965-and-today/

Quote

The Black Family in 1965 and Today
Poor black neighborhoods are not the unassisted creation of poor black people, but largely the malignant result of factors beyond their control.

Steve Chapman2.26.2015 12:01 AM

The breakdown of the black family is a sensitive topic, though it's not new and it's not in dispute. President Barack Obama, who grew up with an absent father, often urges black men to be responsible parents.

Nor is there any doubt that African-American children would be better off living with their married parents. Kids who grow up in households headed by a single mother are far more likely than others to be poor, quit school, get pregnant as teens and end up in jail.

But these facts were once inflammatory. Fifty years ago next month, a Labor Department official named Daniel Patrick Moynihan published a paper titled, "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action," which argued that "a tangle of pathology" afflicting black communities had emerged because "the Negro family in the urban ghettos is crumbling." His key fact: Nearly one-fourth of black babies were born to unwed mothers.

He was accused of blaming the victim, but he was onto something important. Today, Moynihan, later a liberal Democratic senator, is invoked by conservatives to explain why African-Americans' progress has been so slow.

Jason Riley, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, claims that "family structure offers a much more plausible explanation of these outcomes than does residual white racism." Fox News host Bill O'Reilly is more blunt. "The reason there is so much violence and chaos in the black precincts is the disintegration of the African-American family," he said last year. "White people don't force black people to have babies out of wedlock."

They're right, up to a point. It's far from optimal for 72 percent of black children to be born out of wedlock. Social ills would diminish if there were more stable, two-parent black households.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it's incomplete. Worse, it's often used to gloss over intractable realities that continue to hinder black progress.


It's true that whites don't force blacks to have children out of wedlock. But it's wrong to suggest that whites bear no responsibility. Poverty is often the result of lack of access to good jobs or any jobs, and discrimination by employers didn't stop in 1965—and hasn't stopped yet.

The impact of drug laws, and the harsher treatment black men get from the criminal justice system, means that many have records that scare employers away. But research indicates that white applicants with criminal records are more likely to get interviews than blacks without criminal records. (This is no longer true. Definitely not true in the professional class.) my comment

A lot of the well-paid blue-collar jobs once abundant in cities have vanished. Moynihan lamented that unemployment had long been much higher for black men than for whites, and the gap is bigger today.

Without decent jobs, these men are not likely to be able to find wives or support families. They are not likely to get married or stay married. If family breakdown causes poverty, poverty also causes family breakdown.

African-Americans often find it hard to leave blighted neighborhoods. They can find themselves steered away from white communities by real estate agents or rejected by landlords. The Urban Institute reports a fact that ought to shock: "The average high-income black person lives in a neighborhood with a higher poverty rate than the average low-income white person" (my emphasis).

The concentration of poverty in inner cities means many black children are exposed daily to crime and violence. Their turbulent environment makes it harder for them to acquire habits of discipline and self-restraint.

It's tempting to blame African-American social ills on the modern welfare state, which allegedly breeds idleness. But most poor black households are poor despite having at least one adult who works. The welfare reform of the 1990s, which induced many recipients to take jobs, didn't reverse the decline of marriage.

Poor black neighborhoods are not the unassisted creation of poor black people, but largely the malignant result of factors beyond their control. These places generate a vicious cycle of poverty and dysfunction that mires children in desperate conditions. Then we wonder why many of these kids end up unemployed, addicted to drugs, behind bars or murdered.

Moynihan's report contained a passage that conservatives rarely quote: "Three centuries of injustice have brought about deep-seated structural distortions in the life of the Negro American. … The cycle can be broken only if these distortions are set right." He would be sorry to learn that we have yet to set them right, and that his insights are used to rationalize our failure.

Here is where I disagree with this article. Right now it’s not true that whites are favored over blacks in hiring. A white male is now disfavored over any minority in the corporation my husband works for. He is in charge of hiring engineers, technicians and operators. He is strongly pressured to hire any black, Hispanic, female or Asian before any white male. Given a set of applicants in each of these categories, all their qualifications being identical, he may not hire the white male. To hire a white male there must be no minority applicants, documented proof he attempted to get minority applicants, or the white male must be much more qualified than the others and in that case he must present a case to upper management whereas a minority is rubber stamped.

This policy is a result of the company’s lawyers’ fear of equal opportunity lawsuits, I know that because one of my daughter’s works for a consulting firm that coaches corporations on how to stay out of legal trouble for discrimination.

But this helps the professional class. It does nothing for the inner city poor who can’t get an engineering degree. This policy ends up helping the “Jack and Jill” class of black while those stuck in the hood still can’t escape. You can’t apply for a job that doesn’t exist.

The biggest cause of family breakdown and black poverty is lack of jobs. Women won’t marry a man without means. Like the song says, “Got no money, got no car, you got no woman and there you are.” Truth.

The solution is a strong economy, a strong middle class, and bring jobs back to the cities. But I don’t know if that’s possible at this point. The Democrats and federal government have ruined cities. And socialism does not create jobs. Capitalism does. When unencumbered by regulation and corruption.


Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 19, 2021, 08:53:09 AM
today's Pearls Before Swine...

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 19, 2021, 03:09:07 PM

Here is where I disagree with this article. Right now it’s not true that whites are favored over blacks in hiring.
I have another take on this.  I do think blacks face discrimination in hiring more than whites.
Maybe not in the big woke corporations with the woke HR departments.

But most jobs are in small business, and I have witnessed too may times where a small businessman winces when he sees a black candidate walk through the door.

I hired several blacks, and was surprised when the young liberal white women that worked for me were taken aback.  Then, they wouldn't even try to make friends and later claimed they "just don't fit in".  One white girl was the biggest instigator of this, so I fire her (for that and several other reasons).  But hiring a black into a small company of mostly whites is still a risk.

Discrimination still exists, and will always exist, on both sides.  But the most damaging discrimination is white on black.

(cue the pathetic, whining, rino, white apologist claims).

But on the other hand,  I don't think discrimination is the whole, or even most important issue any more. Yes, it used to be.  But I think the biggest issue today is R.E.S.P.E.C.T.  And this is where I think blacks must step up to the plate.  RESPECT is EARNED, not GIVEN.  Pull your pants up over your butt.  Speak normal English.  Get an education.  Get a job.  Show up for work regularly and on time.  Do the things expected of whites and you will be accepted and respected quicker.  Don't fall for the fake liberal promises of free stuff.  Show that you are willing to EARN what you get and in the process, you will EARN respect.

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Mase on November 19, 2021, 03:35:07 PM
.........................

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 19, 2021, 03:46:46 PM
I have another take on this.  I do think blacks face discrimination in hiring more than whites.
Maybe not in the big woke corporations with the woke HR departments.

But most jobs are in small business, and I have witnessed too may times where a small businessman winces when he sees a black candidate walk through the door.

I hired several blacks, and was surprised when the young liberal white women that worked for me were taken aback.  Then, they wouldn't even try to make friends and later claimed they "just don't fit in".  One white girl was the biggest instigator of this, so I fire her (for that and several other reasons).  But hiring a black into a small company of mostly whites is still a risk.

Discrimination still exists, and will always exist, on both sides.  But the most damaging discrimination is white on black.

(cue the pathetic, whining, rino, white apologist claims).

But on the other hand,  I don't think discrimination is the whole, or even most important issue any more. Yes, it used to be.  But I think the biggest issue today is R.E.S.P.E.C.T.  And this is where I think blacks must step up to the plate.  RESPECT is EARNED, not GIVEN.  Pull your pants up over your butt.  Speak normal English.  Get an education.  Get a job.  Show up for work regularly and on time.  Do the things expected of whites and you will be accepted and respected quicker.  Don't fall for the fake liberal promises of free stuff.  Show that you are willing to EARN what you get and in the process, you will EARN respect.

Fair enough. In my experience, many if not most small businesses start out family owned. They hire relatives and spouses and then friends, people known and connected to them. They end up all white not because overt discrimination but because of family connections. If it grows big and goes beyond family you end up with the so called good old boy network. This is a very legitimate gripe. Prior to the decline of the inner cities black owned businesses did the same. It’s human nature to associate with people most like yourself.

I’m not at all surprised your bunch of young liberal white women rejected the new person. Females, especially young ones, are very cliquish. They’re horrible, I hate them. But they reject you for anything, not just skin color. Damn stuck up bitches. Black females can do the same. It’s a female thing. Can’t stand them.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 19, 2021, 03:50:27 PM
They’re horrible, I hate them. But they reject you for anything, not just skin color. Damn stuck up bitches. Black females can do the same. It’s a female thing. Can’t stand them.
Come on Rush, Don't hold back.  Tell us how you really feel!
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 19, 2021, 03:53:19 PM
Come on Rush, Don't hold back.  Tell us how you really feel!

I have PTSD from high school.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 19, 2021, 06:54:05 PM
Fair enough. In my experience, many if not most small businesses start out family owned. They hire relatives and spouses and then friends, people known and connected to them. They end up all white not because overt discrimination but because of family connections. If it grows big and goes beyond family you end up with the so called good old boy network. This is a very legitimate gripe. Prior to the decline of the inner cities black owned businesses did the same. It’s human nature to associate with people most like yourself.

I’m not at all surprised your bunch of young liberal white women rejected the new person. Females, especially young ones, are very cliquish. They’re horrible, I hate them. But they reject you for anything, not just skin color. Damn stuck up bitches. Black females can do the same. It’s a female thing. Can’t stand them.
My wife and daughter would agree with your last paragraph 1,000%.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 19, 2021, 07:07:59 PM
Can anyone tell me why this trial, where one white guy shot three white guys in self defense, has anything - anything - to do with race? 

Anyone?  Bueller?  Jaybird?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 19, 2021, 08:55:31 PM
Can anyone tell me why this trial, where one white guy shot three white guys in self defense, has anything - anything - to do with race? 

Anyone?  Bueller?  Jaybird?

Because anytime a fucking democrat asshole doesn't get their way it is always racist.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 20, 2021, 03:58:47 AM
Because anytime a fucking democrat asshole doesn't get their way it is always racist.

ALWAYS.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 20, 2021, 09:28:52 PM
But the most damaging discrimination is white on black.

I disagree. The most damaging discrimination is black on black. When black children are told they’re an Uncle Tom for eating with the white kids, that they’re an Oreo for trying to dress and behave well, that if they do well in school, they are turning their back on black culture…that is the damage.  That is at Lara’s a large part of why black children don’t do as well in school.  Victimization and a rejection of anything “white”…whatever that means…keeps then separated and keeps them on the Democrat plantation.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 21, 2021, 03:49:08 AM
I disagree. The most damaging discrimination is black on black. When black children are told they’re an Uncle Tom for eating with the white kids, that they’re an Oreo for trying to dress and behave well, that if they do well in school, they are turning their back on black culture…that is the damage.  That is at Lara’s a large part of why black children don’t do as well in school.  Victimization and a rejection of anything “white”…whatever that means…keeps then separated and keeps them on the Democrat plantation.

Truth brother.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on November 21, 2021, 04:42:58 AM
Headed home yesterday after my grandson's soccer game, we stopped at a QT to get a drink. Black guy at the checkout was buying something he needed ID for and he was giving the girl a hard time. She was having none of it and he had to go out and get a friend come in and buy for him. He was definitely of age but didn't have his ID with him. The girl behind the counter was also black. I couldn't help but think how that scene might have played out had she been white.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 21, 2021, 05:52:47 AM
White people can’t fix black bigotry.  It has to come from inside their own culture. I’m hoping that before I die, the younger generation becomes exhausted from the hate and says “enough”.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 21, 2021, 07:48:37 AM
White people can’t fix black bigotry.  It has to come from inside their own culture. I’m hoping that before I die, the younger generation becomes exhausted from the hate and says “enough”.

It won't be allowed to stop.  Too many people make too much money, gain political capital, Power, a purpose, ego boost enable feel good virtue signaling, etc.

The MEDIA LOVES IT.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 21, 2021, 08:01:54 AM
It won't be allowed to stop.  Too many people make too much money, gain political capital, Power, a purpose, ego boost enable feel good virtue signaling, etc.

The MEDIA LOVES IT.

 Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan and numerous other race hustlers make millions from it.  It's a cottage industry for them.  Look at how BLM is profiting.

 Follow. The. Money.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 21, 2021, 08:29:29 AM
It won't be allowed to stop.  Too many people make too much money, gain political capital, Power, a purpose, ego boost enable feel good virtue signaling, etc.

The MEDIA LOVES IT.

Which is why I look to the youth to say "enough".  When they reject the dogma of "blackness", that is when you know we're getting close.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 21, 2021, 09:15:10 AM
When the communist bitch who headed BLM was unmasked as having purchased seven mansions with money donated (extorted) by the organization, everybody knew it was just another race scam.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 21, 2021, 11:54:59 AM
Which is why I look to the youth to say "enough".  When they reject the dogma of "blackness", that is when you know we're getting close.

They've been brainwashed and indoctrinated since Kindergarten.  Ain't happening.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 21, 2021, 12:43:14 PM
I disagree. The most damaging discrimination is black on black. When black children are told they’re an Uncle Tom for eating with the white kids, that they’re an Oreo for trying to dress and behave well, that if they do well in school, they are turning their back on black culture…that is the damage.  That is at Lara’s a large part of why black children don’t do as well in school.  Victimization and a rejection of anything “white”…whatever that means…keeps then separated and keeps them on the Democrat plantation.

The most damaging discrimination is probably different for different individuals and varies from none at all to complete oppression, and… in all races.

There is brutal discrimination based on attractiveness, something you never see discussed. The tall attractive man will be hired before the short ugly one. The well spoken one before the one raised with poor grammar, even if both have the same education and qualifications. The well dressed one before the slob, the fit one before the obese one. There is officially sanctioned discrimination against convicted felons. There is probably still discrimination against the handicapped although awareness about that has increased.

The harsh reality is people are born with differences and these differences rank us. We consciously or unconsciously judge and associate with others based on rank on many yardsticks. Race is one of them but not the only one. There is nothing wrong with trying to improve your rank on any of these scales. You might not be able to change your skin color or your height, but there is a lot you can do on some of these other scales. But the world cannot be expected to ignore differences or compensate for past injustices by overly compensating in the other direction. Do we now make it a point to only hire short people? You must hire the ugly one before the beautiful one. At least half your employees must be morbidly obese otherwise you are practicing “fat discrimination”.

My point isn’t that race discrimination shouldn’t be outlawed. My point is that before blaming all your failures to beat the competition on race, look to see if some of these other factors weren’t also in play.

And don’t assume anything about other people, they may know better than you what discrimination they faced.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on November 21, 2021, 12:46:04 PM
They've been brainwashed and indoctrinated since Kindergarten.  Ain't happening.

Not this generation.  Eventually one of them is going to wake up and say "WTF".
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 21, 2021, 03:38:22 PM
(http://www.pilotspin.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5959.0;attach=2376;image)
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 21, 2021, 07:06:06 PM
Not this generation.  Eventually one of them is going to wake up and say "WTF".

We hope.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 26, 2021, 09:05:30 AM
Can anyone tell me why this trial, where one white guy shot three white guys in self defense, has anything - anything - to do with race?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Jaybird?


I think Dave Chappelle best explained it when he talked about the Amber Guyer trial. It's not that we think she should have been treated more harshly, but we think that everyone should be treated with the same humanity, caring and dignity that Amber was shown.

The feelings of racism come not because Rittenhouse was found NG, but because if the shooter would have been black, there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.

Capiche?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 26, 2021, 09:14:56 AM


The feelings of racism come not because Rittenhouse was found NG, but because if the shooter would have been black, there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.

Capiche?



  That's just down right stupid.   Each and every trial is different.  Our legal system has trial by jury, and these jurors are picked randomly from the population.  The defense and prosecution make their arguments, present evidence and the jury makes a determination based upon this.

  The attempts to inject racism into the Rittenhouse trial are lame, at best.   But stay tuned, there will be another upcoming trial in Wisconsin of a fellow named Darrel Brooks.  He is accused of murdering six people randomly and injuring many more.  There is photographic evidence we know of right now, and more than likely more evidence forth coming.

 Will his trial be televised?  Doubtful.   Will the MSM provide coverage?  Not likely.   Will their probably be riots if he's found guilty? 




Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 26, 2021, 11:43:20 AM

  That's just down right stupid.   Each and every trial is different.  Our legal system has trial by jury, and these jurors are picked randomly from the population.  The defense and prosecution make their arguments, present evidence and the jury makes a determination based upon this.

  The attempts to inject racism into the Rittenhouse trial are lame, at best.   But stay tuned, there will be another upcoming trial in Wisconsin of a fellow named Darrel Brooks.  He is accused of murdering six people randomly and injuring many more.  There is photographic evidence we know of right now, and more than likely more evidence forth coming.

 Will his trial be televised?  Doubtful.   Will the MSM provide coverage?  Not likely.   Will their probably be riots if he's found guilty?


The real problem with the outfall from the Rittenhouse verdict has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with leftists using whatever is handy to claim racism, to promote their communist agenda.

Racism has been a hefty sword for democrat communists to bludgeon the rest of us. It worked for decades, but the effectiveness of the bullshit white supremacy claim has become so overused and downright dishonestly used, that many have stopped believing anything the asshole democrat racist, communists say about it.

Once that started happening, it freed the cowards, the liars, the racist democrats, and the rest of the communist party to reverse the sword and accuse everyone of racism just because someone dared to disagree with their dishonest asses.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 26, 2021, 09:35:20 PM

  That's just down right stupid.   Each and every trial is different.  Our legal system has trial by jury, and these jurors are picked randomly from the population.  The defense and prosecution make their arguments, present evidence and the jury makes a determination based upon this.

  The attempts to inject racism into the Rittenhouse trial are lame, at best.   But stay tuned, there will be another upcoming trial in Wisconsin of a fellow named Darrel Brooks.  He is accused of murdering six people randomly and injuring many more.  There is photographic evidence we know of right now, and more than likely more evidence forth coming.

 Will his trial be televised?  Doubtful.   Will the MSM provide coverage?  Not likely.   Will their probably be riots if he's found guilty?


It is either naive, foolish or disingenuous to think the system is truly equally applied to all. I think you are disingenuous.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 26, 2021, 09:37:09 PM

It is either naive, foolish or disingenuous to think the system is truly equally applied to all. I think you are disingenuous.

This coming from a race hustler.  ::)
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 26, 2021, 09:44:14 PM
Ad Hominem refutation is no defense.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 26, 2021, 09:57:36 PM
Ad Hominem refutation is no defense.

No Ad Hominem.  I was stating a fact.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 26, 2021, 11:08:28 PM


I think Dave Chappelle best explained it when he talked about the Amber Guyer trial. It's not that we think she should have been treated more harshly, but we think that everyone should be treated with the same humanity, caring and dignity that Amber was shown.

The feelings of racism come not because Rittenhouse was found NG, but because if the shooter would have been black, there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.

Capiche?

No, I don’t capiche at all. You’ve got to be fuckjng shitting me.

So the race bating race hustlers in the MSM and race bating race hustler politicians like Biden feel completely free to call Rittenhouse a racist and white supremacist, and the judge a racist, with 100% zero evidence, because……he didn’t sentence Rittenhouse to life in prison because that’s what you think a hypothetical black man would get? 

Joy Read, Jaybird et al needed a sacrificial white 18-year old lamb to feel better about THEIR circumstances? 

You are seriously one sick, twisted person.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 27, 2021, 03:48:28 AM
I'm so tired of the poor me, I'm Black and the world is racist against me crap.  Give it a rest already.  ::)

The MEDIA, Corporate America, Education, Tech, Social Media, Democrat Marxists, Entertainment, Sports, etc. are bending over backwards daily to promote the Systemic Racism fucking LIE.  Just stop.  It is sickening, wrong and destructive to our country.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Number7 on November 27, 2021, 04:24:58 AM
I'm so tired of the poor me, I'm Black and the world is racist against me crap.  Give it a rest already.  ::)

The MEDIA, Corporate America, Education, Tech, Social Media, Democrat Marxists, Entertainment, Sports, etc. are bending over backwards daily to promote the Systemic Racism fucking LIE.  Just stop.  It is sickening, wrong and destructive to our country.

But... it makes the weak minded feel special to whine and wallow in made up offenses.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 27, 2021, 05:08:22 AM


I think Dave Chappelle best explained it when he talked about the Amber Guyer trial. It's not that we think she should have been treated more harshly, but we think that everyone should be treated with the same humanity, caring and dignity that Amber was shown.

Yet the destructive rioting leads me to believe “you” actually want racial revenge, not equal treatment. (Who is this “we” of which you speak? All black people? White leftist intellectuals? BLM/Antifa?) I agree everyone should be treated equally (which makes me of the “we”). I agree with MLK, we each should be judged by the content of our character, (or in criminal trials, by the actual facts and evidence) not the color of our skin. But the reaction from the activists indicates that’s the last thing they want. The agenda is crystal clear: if it’s a white, it must be guilty, period. Facts and evidence don’t matter. In the Rittenhouse case it didn’t even matter that none of the attackers he shot were black. It was what? that those criminal thugs were protesting a racial issue? They had burned 100 cars belonging to innocent people the night before.

Any of the “we” thinking about Secoriea Turner? Anybody following Julian Conley and Jerrion McKinney’s trial? Where are the protesters demanding they be found guilty and locked up for life?  They’re black, so you won’t hear a peep from BLM/Antifa. Black men can kill black babies and it’s just fine. No demand for equal justice now because the shooter wasn’t white.

No, the protesters do not have the moral high ground. They get no credit for wanting equal justice. They are as bad as the corrupt police and system they’re supposedly protesting. In reality they’re just using circumstance as an excuse to go out and destroy innocent people’s livelihoods for kicks. When someone finally said “enough, I’m going to protect the innocent,” mob mentality reverses reality and calls him the evil one.

Not buying it, sorry. There is a better way.

Quote
The feelings of racism come not because Rittenhouse was found NG, but because if the shooter would have been black, there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.

Capiche?[/font]

Let’s say you’re right, if Rittenhouse were black he’d have been found guilty. Do two wrongs make a right? 
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 27, 2021, 05:57:53 AM
What "they" want is a FREE PASS for the past and the current Systemic Racism LIE.  They want more than special treatment.  They want a UTOPIA funded by WHITEY for their entire lives and their future offsprings lives FOREVER.  AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.  We'll have another World War first. 
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 27, 2021, 06:39:50 AM
What "they" want is a FREE PASS for the past and the current Systemic Racism LIE.  They want more than special treatment.  They want a UTOPIA funded by WHITEY for their entire lives and their future offsprings lives FOREVER.  AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.  We'll have another World War first.

The free pass utopia is Marxism which is an invention of certain very evil white men, and now being promoted by mostly white leftists, who have replaced classical Marxist working class with the black race as their poor down trodden victims that need to be saved by white men.

Systemic racism isn’t a lie, but it is not the overarching insurmountable obstacle these Marxists want you to believe. They need blacks to need them, to vote them in power, so they have sold blacks the lie that an economy can prosper by punishing private innovation and hard work, and rewarding laziness, and that, of course, carries the implicit assumption that blacks are lazy, and cannot be innovators and hard workers.

If you think that successful blacks will be exempt from the crushing taxes the left wants to impose, you’re dreaming. The billionaires will never be taxed, it’s the middle and upper middle classes that get punished. You say you want to get blacks out of poverty, well that means getting them into the middle and upper middle classes - the very targets of your punishing economic policy.

Or do you mean you want to keep them a dependent underclass by giving them just enough free money to survive, destroying the nuclear family in the process? Because that is all the left has actually accomplished in 50 years of promises to blacks.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 27, 2021, 09:35:45 AM
This thread is an example of why things don’t “get better”. I clearly articulate that Black people want a better standard of treatment and y’all go off the rails.


I am not your token voice of what Black people think/feel/want for a group that twists it beyond recognition. You asked, I answered and you wanna debate it, which says clearly you didn’t really want to know.


For you is what you earn. Good luck with your eternity.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 27, 2021, 09:42:49 AM
This thread is an example of why things don’t “get better”. I clearly articulate that Black people want a better standard of treatment and y’all go off the rails.


I am not your token voice of what Black people think/feel/want for a group that twists it beyond recognition. You asked, I answered and you wanna debate it, which says clearly you didn’t really want to know.


For you is what you earn. Good luck with your eternity.

  It's not "y'all" that's gone off the rails.    Just more projection.

  Race Hustlers inject racism into anything and everything.   You yell "racist!" so much that the word has lost it's meaning.   Calling a bottle of syrup racist, declaring cream of wheat racist, etc, etc, etc  only waters down your arguments and quite frankly makes you look petty.

  Speaking of better treatment, when will BLM apologize to the millions they have defrauded?   When will BLM apologize for the destruction of people's property, homes and businesses?  When will they apologize to a young man they have deemed a white supremacist and declared guilty of a crime he didn't commit?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jim Logajan on November 27, 2021, 10:42:20 AM
The feelings of racism come not because Rittenhouse was found NG, but because if the shooter would have been black, there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.

Andrew Coffee IV and Kyle Rittenhouse both argued they shot in self defense and both were found not guilty on the same day. Coffee was a felon and had shot at attackers who turned out to be police officers, while Rittenhouse had no previous convictions and had shot at attackers who turned out to have criminal backgrounds.

Granted, that is just one example and there likely exists counter-examples, but "feelings of racism" are no substitute for objective analysis that relies on verifiable facts.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 27, 2021, 10:49:42 AM
This thread is an example of why things don’t “get better”. I clearly articulate that Black people want a better standard of treatment and y’all go off the rails.


I am not your token voice of what Black people think/feel/want for a group that twists it beyond recognition. You asked, I answered and you wanna debate it, which says clearly you didn’t really want to know.


For you is what you earn. Good luck with your eternity.
No sir. I asked, in post #79, and you answered by responding about some other case and Chapelle, and deflection about Rittenhouse.

Are you blind to the vitriol and hatred by politicians and media against a kid who defended himself from three felons intent on killing or injuring him?  Are you blind that they cast the labels of racist and white supremacist on this kid, completely without proof and completely without remorse?  Are you blind that these race hustlers are calling this democrat judge a racist because of how he handled the case? 

You didn’t give me any answer to my questions.

You want things to “get better?”  Here are a few hints:

1. Don’t blame white people for black’s problems.
2. Don’t call everyone with whom you disagree a racist. “Racist” means virtually nothing any more, but is still capable of destroying someone’s life and reputation.
3. Calling whites “racist” by virtue of their skin color will not make things better.  That is making things much worse.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 27, 2021, 12:31:52 PM
Don’t neglect the role of media. In defense of the people that call Rittenhouse racist, mainstream media, big tech, and even Biden himself proclaimed his racist white supremacist guilt before any facts were known. Being steeped in all those lies it’s no wonder blacks hate whites.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 27, 2021, 03:56:14 PM
  It's not "y'all" that's gone off the rails.    Just more projection.

  Race Hustlers inject racism into anything and everything.   You yell "racist!" so much that the word has lost it's meaning.   Calling a bottle of syrup racist, declaring cream of wheat racist, etc, etc, etc  only waters down your arguments and quite frankly makes you look petty.

  Speaking of better treatment, when will BLM apologize to the millions they have defrauded?   When will BLM apologize for the destruction of people's property, homes and businesses?  When will they apologize to a young man they have deemed a white supremacist and declared guilty of a crime he didn't commit?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 27, 2021, 06:08:08 PM


I think Dave Chappelle best explained it when he talked about the Amber Guyer trial. It's not that we think she should have been treated more harshly, but we think that everyone should be treated with the same humanity, caring and dignity that Amber was shown.

The feelings of racism come not because Rittenhouse was found NG, but because if the shooter would have been black, there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.




This thread is an example of why things don’t “get better”. I clearly articulate that Black people want a better standard of treatment and y’all go off the rails.

Okay, I hear you. You said, “there is no faith that the outcome would have been the same.”  That is exactly what we are all experiencing with the government’s response to covid and particularly forced vaccination. There is no trust. We have no faith that the vaccine is really in our best interest, because we’ve been lied to for too long and too consistently by a government that has become a tyrant. So now whether or not the vaccine is good for us, we can’t trust it.

So likewise because of the long history of unequal treatment, you have no faith that the outcome would have been NG if the shooter had been black. Whether or not that would have been true, the feelings of racism are still there because of the long history and lack of trust.

So you try to articulate that and we go off denying that the racism you perceive is actually there. Your perception is valid. It might be true, it might not be, but the fact that you perceive it is definitely true. It is your truth. Why things don’t “get better” is because nobody wants to put themselves in the shoes of the other side and try to understand from their perspective.

This works both ways. A white person’s perception is that blacks want to literally kill us all. The evidence is the violent rioting. I myself was accosted by a gang of blacks during the 60s rioting. My coworker’s white wife, pregnant, was murdered by a black couple. If I were to stop there, I would think I knew it was true, you just want to kill all white people. But I know that’s not true. I’ve known plenty of black people that didn’t want to kill me, especially the one I dated. And I know that statistically blacks kill far more blacks than whites, it’s a poverty and crime thing. But knowing it is one thing, feeling it is quite another when confronted by constant media attention to racial strife.

But the truth on both sides might be somewhere between. Real racism exists but maybe not around every corner. Some blacks want to kill all whites but certainly not most. But there is no faith on either side, especially when emotions are whipped up by constant media focus on horrible events. Things can’t “get better” until there is trust. I don’t know how to bring that about.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 29, 2021, 07:07:47 AM
Rush- Maybe you make a case for irreconcilable differences.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 29, 2021, 07:09:25 AM
No sir. I asked, in post #79, and you answered by responding about some other case and Chapelle, and deflection about Rittenhouse.

Are you blind to the vitriol and hatred by politicians and media against a kid who defended himself from three felons intent on killing or injuring him?  Are you blind that they cast the labels of racist and white supremacist on this kid, completely without proof and completely without remorse?  Are you blind that these race hustlers are calling this democrat judge a racist because of how he handled the case? 

You didn’t give me any answer to my questions.

You want things to “get better?”  Here are a few hints:

1. Don’t blame white people for black’s problems.
2. Don’t call everyone with whom you disagree a racist. “Racist” means virtually nothing any more, but is still capable of destroying someone’s life and reputation.
3. Calling whites “racist” by virtue of their skin color will not make things better.  That is making things much worse.



What makes me responsible for what others have made you believe?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Jaybird180 on November 29, 2021, 07:10:44 AM
  It's not "y'all" that's gone off the rails.    Just more projection.

  Race Hustlers inject racism into anything and everything.   You yell "racist!" so much that the word has lost it's meaning.   Calling a bottle of syrup racist, declaring cream of wheat racist, etc, etc, etc  only waters down your arguments and quite frankly makes you look petty.

  Speaking of better treatment, when will BLM apologize to the millions they have defrauded?   When will BLM apologize for the destruction of people's property, homes and businesses?  When will they apologize to a young man they have deemed a white supremacist and declared guilty of a crime he didn't commit?
See my post above. Perhaps you make me the nameless, faceless Black Dude who is part of the mythical hive-mind
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Lucifer on November 29, 2021, 07:12:54 AM
See my post above

More obfuscation.  Why is no one surprised?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on November 29, 2021, 07:14:47 AM

What makes me responsible for what others have made you believe?

what makes me responsible for what others have done?

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on November 29, 2021, 07:24:13 AM

What makes me responsible for what others have made you believe?
Because you keep arguing the other side.  YOU are attempting to make people believe it is whitey's fault for, well, for everything bad.

What makes me responsible for slavery, or black on black crime?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 29, 2021, 07:51:03 AM
what makes me responsible for what others have done?
Game, set, match
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Anthony on November 29, 2021, 08:05:06 AM
what makes me responsible for what others have done?

Your White Privilege which like Original Sin can not be eliminated.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on November 30, 2021, 05:50:22 AM
Rush- Maybe you make a case for irreconcilable differences.

Maybe so. Sounds like Malcolm X, if I know my Malcolm X, black people need to have their own homeland, which means land, and the only way any humans have ever gotten land is by bloodshed, as in the American Revolution or the Russian revolution or any time an oppressed people finally took action to take possession of real estate and create, or recreate, their nation with themselves now in control. The trouble with that approach is of course pragmatism. What country in existence is going to give up land so African-Americans or Africans anywhere can segregate themselves into their own nation? Any such violent effort will be crushed by existing forces. Not to mention the glaringly obvious fact that that approach is blatantly racist.

I’m talking about other than Africa itself - it looks like that continent is going to end up owned by the Chinese. Hell, the U.S. is too for that matter. Maybe neither whites nor blacks will end up owning any land, we will all be subjects of Asians. I take back that the only way people get land is by bloodshed; apparently the Chinese can just loan you so much money you can never pay it back until all you own is theirs.

But I digress. If Malcolm X didn’t mean it literally, but rather that black people need to look to themselves to improve their lot, not wait for whitey to uplift them, he is correct. That’s why I get most of my input on the subject from blacks, not whites, although they are mostly libertarian or conservative blacks so maybe I can’t say I’m not politically biased. They, Thomas Sowell and Candace Owens for example, and countless others, like myself, firmly believe that a strong underlying economy is needed for any oppressed population to heal, progress and thrive. Without that how is your bloody war going to result in anything but a disaster? But with that, maybe there is no need for war and separation.

On the other hand, facts and reality and maybe even economic prosperity don’t matter when people have prejudices and remain ruled by emotion. It’s innate in all primates to distrust other versions of their own species. The long tailed macaque and pigtail macaque normally don’t get along, but under the right circumstances individuals can assimilate into each other’s troops and even mate, but it takes a lot to achieve that. Usually somebody literally gets ripped to pieces instead.

As humans we are supposed to be above animal instincts, or so we keep being told by religion. I don’t see any evidence we are better behaved than animals. But in some places we’re doing a little better than macaques, nobody around here is ripping anybody to pieces, blacks and whites get along fine in my social circle. But everyone has a job and is doing well. Could that be evidence that I’m right that if the economy is good, that smooths race relations? Or is it just because around here we’re not an urban Democrat-ruled hellhole?
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on November 30, 2021, 06:19:59 AM
Maybe so. Sounds like Malcolm X, if I know my Malcolm X, black people need to have their own homeland, which means land, and the only way any humans have ever gotten land is by bloodshed, as in the American Revolution or the Russian revolution or any time an oppressed people finally took action to take possession of real estate and create, or recreate, their nation with themselves now in control. The trouble with that approach is of course pragmatism. What country in existence is going to give up land so African-Americans or Africans anywhere can segregate themselves into their own nation? Any such violent effort will be crushed by existing forces. Not to mention the glaringly obvious fact that that approach is blatantly racist.

I’m talking about other than Africa itself - it looks like that continent is going to end up owned by the Chinese. Hell, the U.S. is too for that matter. Maybe neither whites nor blacks will end up owning any land, we will all be subjects of Asians. I take back that the only way people get land is by bloodshed; apparently the Chinese can just loan you so much money you can never pay it back until all you own is theirs.

But I digress. If Malcolm X didn’t mean it literally, but rather that black people need to look to themselves to improve their lot, not wait for whitey to uplift them, he is correct. That’s why I get most of my input on the subject from blacks, not whites, although they are mostly libertarian or conservative blacks so maybe I can’t say I’m not politically biased. They, Thomas Sowell and Candace Owens for example, and countless others, like myself, firmly believe that a strong underlying economy is needed for any oppressed population to heal, progress and thrive. Without that how is your bloody war going to result in anything but a disaster? But with that, maybe there is no need for war and separation.

On the other hand, facts and reality and maybe even economic prosperity don’t matter when people have prejudices and remain ruled by emotion. It’s innate in all primates to distrust other versions of their own species. The long tailed macaque and pigtail macaque normally don’t get along, but under the right circumstances individuals can assimilate into each other’s troops and even mate, but it takes a lot to achieve that. Usually somebody literally gets ripped to pieces instead.

As humans we are supposed to be above animal instincts, or so we keep being told by religion. I don’t see any evidence we are better behaved than animals. But in some places we’re doing a little better than macaques, nobody around here is ripping anybody to pieces, blacks and whites get along fine in my social circle. But everyone has a job and is doing well. Could that be evidence that I’m right that if the economy is good, that smooths race relations? Or is it just because around here we’re not an urban Democrat-ruled hellhole?
This is a very good post Rush.

I grew up in the City of Chicago, not just a Lilly white suburb. There was always racial tension as long as I remember. Same with Milwaukee, Cleveland, and especially Detroit.

When I lived in Charlotte, racial tensions were high, but it was more black on black and black on Hispanic crime than black on white crime.

However, there are certain pockets that are what I call “post-racial.”  I got that feeling when my daughter went to vet school at Mississippi State University. I explored the state, but didn’t go into Jackson, but in general I felt a level of peaceful, color blind coexistence that I never felt in Chicago or Milwaukee.

A friend told me they get the same feeling about Nashville.

I almost feel that that post-racial feeling is possible on a much more broad basis if not for the race hustlers who’s only job is to keep racial tensions at a rolling boil point.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: bflynn on December 01, 2021, 01:41:19 AM
At one time decades ago, Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) had the most racially integrated school systems in the country, thanks to extensive busing. Not surprisingly, they also had one of the lowest rates of racial violence in the country as well as the lowest rate of failed schools..there were no white schools or black schools, they were just schools. For some reason, they cut back on the busing and it all came undone.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on December 01, 2021, 04:46:20 AM
At one time decades ago, Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) had the most racially integrated school systems in the country, thanks to extensive busing. Not surprisingly, they also had one of the lowest rates of racial violence in the country as well as the lowest rate of failed schools..there were no white schools or black schools, they were just schools. For some reason, they cut back on the busing and it all came undone.

Same with Wake County. But they accomplished it by attempting to minimize forced bussing. They implemented the magnet school system. The magnets would be the inner city mostly black schools where they would have special programs to attract the white suburban students. Extra computer classes back when PCs were a new thing, exotic foreign languages like Japanese. Extra money was spent fancying up the schools which needed it anyway as they tended to be older. This got the white students to voluntarily ask to go to the magnet schools and you would have to apply and be accepted. I guess if you were black and lived in the suburbs you’d be turned down.

But the problem was how to attract the black students to the mostly white suburban schools. You couldn’t put enhanced programs there or you’d defeat the purpose of the magnets. I’m sure some black students wanted to go but in the end they had to bus black kids out of the cities a long way to the suburbs and many of them didn’t like that, the long travel time, and the lost sense of community with your local school. At one point there was a backlash from the black parents against this forced integration.

So the end result was that the effort to integrate schools ended up benefitting white students to the detriment of a lot of black students. The irony was that all the schools were already integrated before all this started, they just didn’t have balanced proportions. An inner city school might be 60% black and 40% white while a suburban school might be 95% white and 5% black. So they were trying to balance the proportions to get all of them to be say 80% white and 20% black, if that was the general population mix. And again, that hurt black students because now the black students were a minority in all the schools. And all students lost the sense of community they had when you go to a school in your own neighborhood.

I’m not saying there weren’t benefits. The magnet schools did keep a portion of the inner city neighborhood so those black students benefited from the enhanced programs, and it did achieve a more balanced mix complying with integration mandates without all forced bussing, and it resulted in interesting new courses that otherwise might not have ever come to the county, like Japanese. But it had unintended negative consequences that were, of course, unforeseen by people driving forced integration.

I don’t know what they’re doing nowadays. It’s been decades since I was there. Last I heard there was a lot of pushback because, all the buses and cars getting these students to distant schools is causing climate change, lol! You can’t win.

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Little Joe on December 01, 2021, 05:47:21 AM
Same with Wake County. But they accomplished it by attempting to minimize forced bussing. They implemented the magnet school system. The magnets would be the inner city mostly black schools where they would have special programs to attract the white suburban students.
One predictable problem with that is that when the liberals see that whites are passing those advanced courses at a higher rate than blacks, they lower the standards for passing.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: EppyGA - White Christian Domestic Terrorist on December 01, 2021, 05:50:40 AM
Now they don't want standards at all.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: President-Elect Bob Noel on December 01, 2021, 06:01:55 AM
At one time decades ago, Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) had the most racially integrated school systems in the country, thanks to extensive busing. Not surprisingly, they also had one of the lowest rates of racial violence in the country as well as the lowest rate of failed schools..there were no white schools or black schools, they were just schools. For some reason, they cut back on the busing and it all came undone.

conversely, I don't think the forced busing did much for "race relations" in the Boston area

perhaps it was the "forced" part, eh?

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on December 01, 2021, 06:15:24 AM
Now they don't want standards at all.

Yep, now they are eliminating advanced classes. Advanced classes saved my kid who was failing and we were being told had ADHD and needed meds. I took her to a psychologist who tested her, said she does not have ADHD but does have a very high IQ and is bored to death in school. So we got her into advanced classes and she did much better.

Black kids with high IQs face a lot of problems getting recognized and getting such benefits as advanced classes. Eliminating advanced classes because they are “racist” (meaning there are disproportionately more whites and Asians in them than blacks) removes the opportunity for the extremely smart black kid to thrive. It is the most anti-black racist thing you could do.

Here is a great book addressing the problem recognizing a smart kid, especially if you’re black where parts of society still stereotype you as stupid, and in the case of Sowell’s son, a late talker. Very smart kids are a minority, a much smaller minority than any race or ethnicity, yet these are the very kids you want to nurture because the economy needs their brainpower. Yet wokeness is increasing discrimination against this group. It’s one of most horrible features of leftism and wokeness, to punish superiority.

https://www.amazon.com/Late-Talking-Children-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465038352
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Mr Pou on December 01, 2021, 06:22:31 AM
Yep, now they are eliminating advanced classes. Advanced classes saved my kid who was failing and we were being told had ADHD and needed meds. I took her to a psychologist who tested her, said she does not have ADHD but does have a very high IQ and is bored to death in school. So we got her into advanced classes and she did much better.

I did very poorly in high school and most thought I was not very bright, but the truth was it was mind-numbingly boring. I got into college by the skin of my teeth yet freshman year in engineering I started banging out A's in physics and calculus. Finally, something interesting!

We made sure our daughter was placed in better classes, she carried four AP classes all though high school. It kept her engaged and working.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on December 01, 2021, 06:54:47 AM
I did very poorly in high school and most thought I was not very bright, but the truth was it was mind-numbingly boring. I got into college by the skin of my teeth yet freshman year in engineering I started banging out A's in physics and calculus. Finally, something interesting!

We made sure our daughter was placed in better classes, she carried four AP classes all though high school. It kept her engaged and working.

Me too, even the college BA double major bored me and I barely had a 2.5 GPA. When I went back for the engineering degree I was making straight As and a 4.0 back when 4.0 was the highest you could get, I think maybe they go over that now. Unfortunately they averaged it with all my prior years so my overall was only 3.0.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on December 01, 2021, 08:40:15 AM
At one time decades ago, Mecklenburg County (Charlotte) had the most racially integrated school systems in the country, thanks to extensive busing. Not surprisingly, they also had one of the lowest rates of racial violence in the country as well as the lowest rate of failed schools..there were no white schools or black schools, they were just schools. For some reason, they cut back on the busing and it all came undone.
My daughter went to Catholic Junior High and Catholic High School in Charlotte between 2000-2006. There was still some level of busing going on, but not like the wholesale bussing from the 1970s.

Because of that, secular private and Christian private schools were at full. Parochial Catholic schools (less expensive than other private schools) always have a built in constituency, but I know people who were willing to pay $14,000-$16,000 to send their kid to 1st grade in one of the private schools just to avoid the Charlotte Mecklenburg school system.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on December 01, 2021, 08:46:07 AM
Yep, now they are eliminating advanced classes. Advanced classes saved my kid who was failing and we were being told had ADHD and needed meds. I took her to a psychologist who tested her, said she does not have ADHD but does have a very high IQ and is bored to death in school. So we got her into advanced classes and she did much better.

Black kids with high IQs face a lot of problems getting recognized and getting such benefits as advanced classes. Eliminating advanced classes because they are “racist” (meaning there are disproportionately more whites and Asians in them than blacks) removes the opportunity for the extremely smart black kid to thrive. It is the most anti-black racist thing you could do.

Here is a great book addressing the problem recognizing a smart kid, especially if you’re black where parts of society still stereotype you as stupid, and in the case of Sowell’s son, a late talker. Very smart kids are a minority, a much smaller minority than any race or ethnicity, yet these are the very kids you want to nurture because the economy needs their brainpower. Yet wokeness is increasing discrimination against this group. It’s one of most horrible features of leftism and wokeness, to punish superiority.

https://www.amazon.com/Late-Talking-Children-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465038352
To get to be a voice for this woke movement most definitely doesn’t require intellect. It just requires a big mouth. It’s these big mouth race hustlers who probably needed things to be dumbed down when they were in school, so they are projecting their biases upon the entire black population. It’s criminal.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Rush on December 01, 2021, 09:49:30 AM
To get to be a voice for this woke movement most definitely doesn’t require intellect. It just requires a big mouth. It’s these big mouth race hustlers who probably needed things to be dumbed down when they were in school, so they are projecting their biases upon the entire black population. It’s criminal.

These are the same people that claim IQ doesn’t mean anything. IQ tests are racist, according to them, because on average the bell curve for blacks is shifted slightly to the left compared to whites, therefore it’s because the tests are culturally biased. Yes, at first they were culturally biased, but that was fixed a long time ago, yet the difference remains. Apparently we aren’t supposed to acknowledge the role of poverty and nutrition in brain development, nevermind genetics.

Also they were used to justify incredibly evil things like forced sterilization of people that scored low (of any race, but disproportionately affected blacks). That stopped (maybe transformed into promoting abortion among “undesirables”) but they threw the baby out with the bath water. Because IQ tests were misused does not mean they are invalid.

It is true there are other forms of intelligence that IQ doesn’t account for, such as emotional intelligence. Nevertheless it is a fact that the standard IQ tests are an accurate measure of raw processing power and speed of the human brain. But to acknowledge that people have different levels of this ability has become extremely politically incorrect.

Though the entire bell curve is slightly shifted for races as a whole (it is shifted to right in Asians and Ashkenazi Jews compared to non-Jewish whites) that says nothing about an individual. There are individuals of all races at every point on the curve, both the high and low ends while most are in the middle. So the thing you accomplish by discrediting the IQ test is to remove a very important tool needed to identify those at either end who both are in need of special help.

Everyone knows those at the lower end need help, but there is an assumption that those at the higher end don’t. They’re smart so they’ll sail through life. But that’s not the case. As we have seen with our stories about school, the world is geared toward the average majority. Those at the lower end struggle to keep up and those at the higher end suffer boredom, being misdiagnosed with ADHD, autism, or other behavioral disorders, being misunderstood, having social problems because of interests out of sync with peers, and in general have to constantly deal with a world designed to operate at a slower speed than their brain needs to go.

Providing help for these kids at the higher level they need is just as crucial as helping those on the other tail of the curve. Otherwise they can suffer depression and failure and the world loses a valuable asset. Black kids with very high IQ can fly completely under the radar, especially if in the lower echelons where everyone in society, including the upper class blacks, assume they’re “stupider”.

The LAST thing they need is to cancel advanced courses in the local schools, or discredit IQ tests which can identify these at risk kids, but this is exactly what woke-think is doing.
Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: Mr Pou on December 01, 2021, 11:24:06 AM
and those at the higher end suffer boredom, being misdiagnosed with ADHD, autism, or other behavioral disorders, being misunderstood, having social problems because of interests out of sync with peers, and in general have to constantly deal with a world designed to operate at a slower speed than their brain needs to go.

This really hits home and brings up a bad childhood memory. It was probably 4th or 5th grade, we were to go to the library, find a science type book, and do a presentation at the chalk board in front of the class. Being an aviation junkie from an early age (grew up under two mile final to a major international airport), I found a great book on jet engines, read it, understood it, and went to the chalk board and proceeded to diagram and explain the operation and differences between turbojets, fanjets, and pulse jets. The teacher jumped in and said this was way over my head, that I couldn't possibly understand or know what was going on, and told me to sit down. This was hugely deflating and embarrassing, and at that point my attitude towards "school" was set for the duration of my public education. "Fuck school!"

In hindsight I realized the subject matter was way over HER head, and she wasn't about to have a snotty nose little kid one up her in science. And again, my response was "fuck school."

They say it only takes one good teacher to light someone on fire to learn, well I'm here to tell you that one bad teacher can do quite the opposite.

Title: Re: Buttgig: Roads Are Racist
Post by: nddons on December 01, 2021, 11:55:21 AM
This really hits home and brings up a bad childhood memory. It was probably 4th or 5th grade, we were to go to the library, find a science type book, and do a presentation at the chalk board in front of the class. Being an aviation junkie from an early age (grew up under two mile final to a major international airport), I found a great book on jet engines, read it, understood it, and went to the chalk board and proceeded to diagram and explain the operation and differences between turbojets, fanjets, and pulse jets. The teacher jumped in and said this was way over my head, that I couldn't possibly understand or know what was going on, and told me to sit down. This was hugely deflating and embarrassing, and at that point my attitude towards "school" was set for the duration of my public education. "Fuck school!"

In hindsight I realized the subject matter was way over HER head, and she wasn't about to have a snotty nose little kid one up her in science. And again, my response was "fuck school."

They say it only takes one good teacher to light someone on fire to learn, well I'm here to tell you that one bad teacher can do quite the opposite.
What a shame. Even if it was over HER head (and grade school teachers don’t need to be rocket scientists) a GOOD teacher would have sent you to a real science teacher who could help you explore the topic.