PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Rush on September 27, 2022, 05:11:33 AM
-
Question: If you were a young man in Russia today, would you leave to avoid being sent to Ukraine? So what is the difference between that and fleeing to Canada in the 60s to avoid Vietnam? We condemn those who did that. Somebody explain to me the difference. You cannot use “Russia is a communist shithole and the U.S. isn’t.” The reality is in both wars you are fighting a highly motivated enemy on their homeland for a cause you don’t understand.
-
I'd flee, not to avoid military service... but to get out of that place
-
You'll never know what you'd do until you're actually in that situation.
-
You'll never know what you'd do until you're actually in that situation.
Yeah but what would be your best guess? I'm thinking I wouldn't have gone to Canada but I would flee Russia but that's because when I was 17 or 18 I was an idiot easily manipulated by authority and now I have the self possession to say fuck authority. But that's not a fair answer either.
-
I'd run if possible. The big difference between Russia now and the US during VietNam is that in Russia you get drafted, given a weapon that dates back to WWI and sent to the front lines all in a day with little or no training. During VietNam there was some training, modern weapons and a reasonable chance you'd come back home.
-
Yeah but what would be your best guess? I'm thinking I wouldn't have gone to Canada but I would flee Russia but that's because when I was 17 or 18 I was an idiot easily manipulated by authority and now I have the self possession to say fuck authority. But that's not a fair answer either.
I was too young for Nam but I THINK I would have gone. Especially as a bullet proof teenager. I can't speak to the Russia scenario.
-
I'd run if possible. The big difference between Russia now and the US during VietNam is that in Russia you get drafted, given a weapon that dates back to WWI and sent to the front lines all in a day with little or no training. During VietNam there was some training, modern weapons and a reasonable chance you'd come back home.
That’s a fair point. Russia’s military today is a disgrace, very uncomfortable, even if you don’t die. We’ve always been much better even given the unusual conditions in Vietnam, which were also very uncomfortable.
Maybe a big difference is technology and social media. The truth about serving in Ukraine has gotten out to the Russian public even through government suppression. Soldiers have cell phones, the Ukrainians were even using the pings to locate units. One social media post can reach thousands in seconds. With Vietnam you had one hour of controlled reports on the 5:00 news. Even if a soldier could get a letter out without it being censored, it only went to one person at a time. The horrors of the war did eventually come out but it seems to have taken much longer so perhaps a draftee was more ignorant of what he was getting into, especially early on, than the Russians are today. Ukraine war is but half a year in and they already know. Seems like we were in Vietnam several years before it began to dawn on the public how bad it really was.
-
You're right about social media. Back during the VietNam war we saw it on the TV every night in (for the time) all its raw horribleness. Fast forward to today and the various mideast wars are mostly vacant from the TV. Even the body counts disappeared once Obama became president. It all happened over there and so there was never a massive uprising against them as we saw in the 1960s-1970s.
We're seeing in Russia what we saw in VietNam. The truth about the war is getting out despite the government censors. And the people aren't happy. The oppression is much more than we have here, but it's an amazing change from a few years ago. What we may be seeing is the second collapse of the USSR.
-
You're right about social media. Back during the VietNam war we saw it on the TV every night in (for the time) all its raw horribleness. Fast forward to today and the various mideast wars are mostly vacant from the TV. Even the body counts disappeared once Obama became president. It all happened over there and so there was never a massive uprising against them as we saw in the 1960s-1970s.
We're seeing in Russia what we saw in VietNam. The truth about the war is getting out despite the government censors. And the people aren't happy. The oppression is much more than we have here, but it's an amazing change from a few years ago. What we may be seeing is the second collapse of the USSR.
Agree! Mainstream media scrubs blood and guts nowadays. True, TV had it on every night but it was just one hour, otherwise life went on as usual. Today, we have our noses in our phone every waking hour of the day, at least the young do. And you are right about the interim, Afghanistan and Iraq were for the most part theoretical unless you personally knew someone over there. Media cleaned it up and internet had not yet become ubiquitous. Today, information leaks out all AROUND mainstream aka State Controlled (both Russia and here) media.
-
Agree! Mainstream media scrubs blood and guts nowadays. True, TV had it on every night but it was just one hour, otherwise life went on as usual. Today, we have our noses in our phone every waking hour of the day, at least the young do. And you are right about the interim, Afghanistan and Iraq were for the most part theoretical unless you personally knew someone over there. Media cleaned it up and internet had not yet become ubiquitous. Today, information leaks out all AROUND mainstream aka State Controlled (both Russia and here) media.
Remember, Leftist Walter Cronkite told the American people that the War in Vietnam was "unwinnable" and people bailed on staying in Vietnam because they were told to by the Media. Also, the nightly body count video on the "news" turned people off big time.
-
Remember, Leftist Walter Cronkite told the American people that the War in Vietnam was "unwinnable" and people bailed on staying in Vietnam because they were told to by the Media. Also, the nightly body count video on the "news" turned people off big time.
It’s easy to see in retrospect we were being manipulated. Right now I wouldn’t say we should have gone in there to win; we shouldn’t have gone at all. The Red Threat wasn’t as real as they made it seem. Or rather, the threat directly from China or Russia was never real, the actual red threat was always from within, incubated in academia.
-
I was too young for Nam but I THINK I would have gone. Especially as a bullet proof teenager. I can't speak to the Russia scenario.
I was too young for Nam too, born in 1960. However, I saw it every single night on TV. I grew up thinking that war was a perpetual state, and that eventually we would all be going to war, so it wasn’t much of a question in my mind.
My dad was in WWII, landed on D+1 and fought in the Bulge, leaving as a Tec sergeant. No one was a “career” military person in my dad’s friend group, even though all fought in WAII or Korea. So he was never a gung ho military man who put any pressure on me to join the military, and in fact subtly downplayed it.
So as for Nam, yes, I would have gone.
I don’t know who’s talking about Russia’s conscripts, but like you said, I would have hauled ass out of that country long ago.
Where are these men going? Where is their Canada?
-
I went. 1969-70. Ton Son Nhut Air Base, Saigon. To dodge the draft I joined the Air Force.
-
That’s a fair point. Russia’s military today is a disgrace, very uncomfortable, even if you don’t die. We’ve always been much better even given the unusual conditions in Vietnam, which were also very uncomfortable.
Maybe a big difference is technology and social media. The truth about serving in Ukraine has gotten out to the Russian public even through government suppression. Soldiers have cell phones, the Ukrainians were even using the pings to locate units. One social media post can reach thousands in seconds. With Vietnam you had one hour of controlled reports on the 5:00 news. Even if a soldier could get a letter out without it being censored, it only went to one person at a time. The horrors of the war did eventually come out but it seems to have taken much longer so perhaps a draftee was more ignorant of what he was getting into, especially early on, than the Russians are today. Ukraine war is but half a year in and they already know. Seems like we were in Vietnam several years before it began to dawn on the public how bad it really was.
We were Soldiers Once, and Young, is one of the best Vietnam books I’ve read. The battle of Ia Drang was in Nov 1965, so very early in the war.
The movie with Mel Gibson (one of his best performances IMO) starts out with the French Indochina occupation (maybe not the best term) of Vietnam which I believe ended in 1954.
-
It’s easy to see in retrospect we were being manipulated. Right now I wouldn’t say we should have gone in there to win; we shouldn’t have gone at all. The Red Threat wasn’t as real as they made it seem. Or rather, the threat directly from China or Russia was never real, the actual red threat was always from within, incubated in academia.
I’m not so sure about that. We saw such a proxy war in Korea. While VN was a shithole, I think we were looking at what was beyond.
-
We were Soldiers Once, and Young, is one of the best Vietnam books I’ve read. The battle of Ia Drang was in Nov 1965, so very early in the war.
The movie with Mel Gibson (one of his best performances IMO) starts out with the French Indochina occupation (maybe not the best term) of Vietnam which I believe ended in 1954.
I just started that movie as it happens.
-
I just started that movie as it happens.
Let me know what you think of it. I love Sam Elliott’s role. It’s very close to the book.
-
Let me know what you think of it. I love Sam Elliott’s role. It’s very close to the book.
Just finished it. Very well done. “Enjoyable” isn’t the word, more like emotional on a lot of levels. I was young then too, that was my generation, saw it on TV every night, I guess it’s still kind of unresolved.
-
Have that movie on DVD. It's excellent.
-
Have that movie on DVD. It's excellent.
I have it also. It is in the rotation of movies I watch once the wife goes to sleep.
-
I have it also. It is in the rotation of movies I watch once the wife goes to sleep.
Ha. Me as well. My wife can’t watch war movies; at least modern war movies with graphic violence. I’ve tried to talk her into watching We Were Soldiers and Saving Private Ryan, but no go.
-
author=nddons link=topic=6576.msg116538#msg116538 date=1664557389]
Ha. Me as well. My wife can’t watch war movies; at least modern war movies with graphic violence. I’ve tried to talk her into watching We Were Soldiers and Saving Private Ryan, but no go.
I have no problem with graphic violence. Even real life graphic photos like from Ukraine don’t bother me, by that I mean I have no physical reaction, but they bother me a great deal emotionally. But I’ll watch a war movie like We Were Soldiers anyway, I don’t shrink from unpleasant emotion, what a wuss would I be if I did. If soldiers can go do that stuff the least I can do is know a modicum of what they went through and appreciate it.
However I cannot watch Dr. Pimple Popper. Squeezing white stuff from a cyst makes me gag. I can watch videos of autopsies or surgery with no problem. Cannot handle seeing a pimple popped. Go figure.
-
I have no problem with graphic violence. Even real life graphic photos like from Ukraine don’t bother me, by that I mean I have no physical reaction, but they bother me a great deal emotionally. But I’ll watch a war movie like We Were Soldiers anyway, I don’t shrink from unpleasant emotion, what a wuss would I be if I did. If soldiers can go do that stuff the least I can do is know a modicum of what they went through and appreciate it.
However I cannot watch Dr. Pimple Popper. Squeezing white stuff from a cyst makes me gag. I can watch videos of autopsies or surgery with no problem. Cannot handle seeing a pimple popped. Go figure.
My daughter is a veterinarian because people are “gross,” even though she spent 6 years spending time shoulder-deep in cows preg checking them.
The pimple pop thing I don’t mind. But what is this thing where ads pop up with pictures of toe fungus? Just typing this out makes me want to gag at that.
-
My daughter is a veterinarian because people are “gross,” even though she spent 6 years spending time shoulder-deep in cows preg checking them.
The pimple pop thing I don’t mind. But what is this thing where ads pop up with pictures of toe fungus? Just typing this out makes me want to gag at that.
Oh God, the toenail fungus! I HATE that! So disgusting.
-
I do not like the commercials with crooked and bent carrots.
-
I can't do older women.