PILOT SPIN
Spin Zone => Spin Zone => Topic started by: Number7 on March 13, 2024, 12:17:43 PM
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I was browsing thru the list of people perusing threads and saw Jim was shown to be reading the "Let's try to Get to Know Each Other' thread from 2018.
It got me thinking.
Since I am unquestionably still the grumpy old man of the forum, why don't we try it again? Lots of people have come and gone since it was introduced
and lots of things have changed over time.
For fun, let's try to keep it on topic....
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I used to try really hard to do that.
It became truly impossible.
I don't think anything has changed except that people have gotten grumpier.
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My family earned poverty the hard way.
We were poor white trash.
Our family was known as the really poor family in the neighborhood, but we always ate even it wasn't enough, or nutritious.
My father was brutally disabled and my mother was illiterate.
You do what you do to survive and we all but one made it to adulthood. The baby was killed before he turned six.
It left my mother a husk, barely functional.
There was only one way out for people like us. Education was number two in importance, but work - hard work - came first.
We both (my older brother and me) studied as hard as possible and graduated ahead of almost everyone else. It wasn't enough to win any scholarships,
but when I took the military aptitude tests I did so well, it kind of helped me get assigned to training that would help me
in my career after the military.
The service offered the GI Bill in those days and it became the end all - be all for me and my older brother. The idea of a military
career never once entered my mind. I wanted the GI Bill and a chance out of the cycle of poverty that trapped most of the rest of my
loved ones.
My older brother chose the Army and communications as his desired field. He was exposed to tremendous radiation and spent the rest of his shortened life fighting cancer. It is my hope that his troubles were
caused by the fact that we didn't know enough about shielding in those days, and not because he was not important enough to protect.
Once my obligation was complete, I went straight to night school four nights a week and worked two, or three jobs during the day. Eventually (in my 40's)
I went back to graduate school and survived... barely.
Dated infrequently and married the second woman I dated more than once, or twice. We intend to stay married forever. So far - so good.
Dreamed of flying since I was 8 and didn't have a prayer of finding enough money to go with the boy scouts to Oshkosh and volunteer there.
It was Boys Life magazine, of all things, that ran a long feature of Oshkosh and got me started. Once that fire sparked to life, nothing could stamp it out for me.
Some think I came by my grumpiness because of my childhood, but that is not the case. Lots and LOTS of people were just as poor and struggled just as much.
There was nothing unique about my experience.
I HATE dealing with lazy, entitled, assholes. For your edification, I couldn't care less about your voter ID, your sexual peculiarities, or your skin color. If you are sincere about
living up to your obligations, raising the children you made, and paying your own way, I am all for giving you a hand up. If not, then fuck you.
I mean that in the most non-biased way.
Anyone else want to play?
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I’m gonna play but really busy now, gimme a while.
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I'm a lazy bum. That's why I ended up doing computer programming - it beat working for a living.
My dad served in the WWII European theater as a radioman in the 788th Field Artillery Battalion. He was a carpenter in civilian life, working, I think, with his future father-in-law. In 1966, when I was 10, he died at the age of 51 of lung cancer - possibly due to asbestos he inhaled while working (he also smoked a pipe.) Between exhausting work and exhausting chemotherapy and radiation treatment I wasn't able to interact with him much - besides he had 7 of us rug rats to spread his attention. I do remember us kids took turns rubbing his forehead to try to ease the headaches he got. I was told years later finances after his death almost lead to the family being split up into foster homes. A not-rich uncle gave my mom some money on a regular basis which helped us survive.
A few years later imminent domain was used to kick us and several neighbors out of their homes so the city of St. Paul. MN could create what later became Marydale Park. (I think my dad was into politics because I remember political posters being printed in our basement - he may have been fighting to keep our home and that fight ended when he died.) We moved to a suburb. Meanwhile I started reading science fiction and Robert Heinlein taught me a view of life I hope my dad would have taught me had he lived longer.
After that it was standard suburban life and I got into college, got a summer unskilled labor job at West Publishing - thanks again to the not-rich uncle who worked there. Physical labor was not my thing (did I mention lazy bum?) so having encountered teletypes at the suburban high school (and later college) that could dial into a time-shared computer I taught myself the BASIC and Fortran languages, among others. For writing games, natch. Computers (and natural inclination) ultimately lead to my life of bum-ness. Microcomputers came on the scene while I was in college and I could freelance out to small businesses and program their newly bought microcomputers. Self-taught accounting, programming invoicing and what-not programs because that is what they wanted but couldn't find off-the-shelf programs for - yet. I was in and out of college, sometimes working, sometime taking classes, before finally staying in long enough to get a college degree.
During the 1970s my older brother John subscribed to both left and right wing publications before settling on the National Review for a while. Naturally I would try reading the NR. Picked up some new vocabulary and WFB Jr's stilted style has probably affected my own writing. My brother later became a libertarian and I happened to end up the same. But Heinlein was a bigger influence on me than the conservative magazines.
Now I'm retired and hoping I still have at least a couple more decades before eternal oblivion.
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I love our stories. Tried to find the 2018 thread but couldn’t. But looking at old threads I realized how many years we’ve all been sparring, agreeing, insulting, complimenting, arriving at impasses, advising, sympathizing, and just generally hanging out and sharing life. Semper gratus. Forever grateful.
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My parents divorced at an early age. My Mother was 26 when I was born and my Dad was 50. My Mother went on the marry someone else while my Dad did not for many years. I spent weekends with him and a week in the summer. My Mother and Stepfather were borderline alcoholics. I ended up with a half sister and half brother. My stepfather and mother started a trucking company and bought two dump trucks driven by my stepfather and his brother. They hauled gravel to O'Hare when it was being built. Ended up going bankrupt. Stepfather got messed up with a bad guy who wanted him to go along on a robbery. Told him no and the guy pulled a gun and told hi to drive him to our house. He drove him to his brothers house instead, one street over from us. At some point there was a struggle for the gun and the bad guy was killed. Stepfather stood trial for murder and was acquitted. It was not a fun time. My Dad finally remarried and I chose to go live with him. Stepmother was very controlling. Upon graduating from HS (1969) I went to work for the power company, CEO was Thomas Ayers, father of Bill Ayers. I read meters initially and then moved into the Underground department.
I served in the U.S. Air Force from 1971-1975 stationed originally in Gila Bend, AZ and spent my last year at MacDill AFB in Tampa, FL. In the Air Force I spliced telephone cables at ComEd I spliced power cables. After the winter of 78-79
I decided we should move out of the north and we headed to Winter Park, FL and I went to work for the CableTV company and learned how to splice coaxial cable. Along the way I had entered Community College to learn about Electronics and earned an A.S. in Electronics Technology. While with the CableTV company I organized us with the CWA and took part in contract negotiations while on workers comp for a knee injury. It was fun times.
After that, I went to work for Pizza Time Theater (Chuck E. Cheese) as a store techician, then on to installing the robotic shows in new stores and finally as a District Technical Manager. After the merger of Pizza Time and Showbiz, it was time to move on. I became the Manager of Education and later Director of a local Electronics Technical School in the Atlanta area. We moved to the Atlanta area in 1982 while still employed by Pizza Time.
I enjoyed teaching and the school was growing under my leadership, then the parent company went bankrupt and our ability to participate in the loan and grant programs was withdrawn and we were out of business. That took me back into CableTV with a contractor initially doing CAD work and then we moved into the fiber splicing business as it became big in the early 90's So, that completed my career of splicing all types of cables.
I eventually ended up with Scientific Atlanta, a manufacturer of CableTV industry products including digital set-top boxes. I started there doing training classes and became an expert on the set-top box and the back end server systems. That led me to the marketing area where I became the technical lead to support our local Demo room and trade show systems for ten years for our digital set-top business. Cisco came along and bought us telling us how mach they liked the way we did things and then managed, over the years, to totally dismantle the company. Fortunately for me, they offered a really good early retirement package in 2011 and I never looked back. I was sixty then and haven't worked a paying job since. Don't have millions in the bank, but we do okay with two small pensions, SS and a small annuity that pays every month.
On the aviation side of things. I began taking lessons in 1970. Got about 4 hours in and went into the Air Force. When I got to Gila Bend I hooked up with a CFI and his C-150. Soloed with him and got through my first solo cross-country when reality set in after our first son was born in 1972. Aviation was on hold until 2008 when I began again and took my check ride in December of that year. Rented for a bit then got a chance to purchase a half share of a Piper Warrior. Other partner did not really fly much so I had wide open access to the plane. She also owned a hangar, which made it nice. She finally asked that we add two more partners, so I created an LLC and we added partners. The first two didn't last too long and were replaced, both were students and ended up not flying much at all. As my wife's health got to a point that she could not easily get in and out of the plane and three of the four partners wanted out, we decided to sell the plane to a local flying club. It still flies, quit regularly, to this day. It's had a couple of engines put on it and panel upgrades too.
I joined the local EAA chapter along the way and after my retirement I decided to run against the incumbent President. We had seen member decline steadily under his lack of leadership. Wasn't totally his fault as he had his arm twisted to run in the first place. I beat him handily and we began the process of growing the chapter. At one point we were over 300 members, family members included in that total. I server two two year terms and then a two year term as the treasurer. As President I started a Youth Program, first with a ground school and later with our build program. We were gifted an additional hangar by a member and his wife. The program allowed youth to come work on airplanes and earn credits for their hours of work that could be used for flight training with the flying club that purchased the Warrior. They had a C-152 and the principal of the club provided pro-bono instruction. We paid $75 per hour at the time for plane. A little over a year ago myself and a few others disassociated with the chapter due to the current leaderships desire to censor things posted on the chapter Slack account and their heavy handed leadership style.
So, know I spend my time working on our church website and the church newsletter. Working on a redo of the website. What I have in place now was an interim solution when we found ourselves losing our provider at the time. Just last Sunday, our church and another nearby church voted to merge our memberships. We've been renting in a strip center a bit off the beaten path and they have a nice 100+ year old sanctuary with a fellowship hall and a couple of classroom trailers. The next couple of months will be interesting as we bring the two groups together. They are a much older established congregation that has grown very small over the last few years.
My wife and I have two sons born in 72 and 74 and four grandchildren, one girl and three boys. The youngest grandson just turned seventeen. He plays HS soccer on the Varsity team and in the summer plays club soccer. He's a junior this year and has played varsity soccer since he was a freshman. The current team is currently 13-0 overall and 3-0 in conference play with three more conference games left. In his freshman year they went to the state semifinals. Last year they played for state championship and lost by a goal in overtime. They played 36 minutes total, one man down. Hopefully, this year they can take the last step. Our oldest grandson, graduated from college in December and is an equipment manager for the Carolina Panthers.
Next month I turn seventy-three. Overall doing fairly well. I have three small blockages in my heart and take statins to control the cholesterol. I have a knee that give me a little trouble now and then, but nothing serious. My wife had had both hips and knees replaced, had numerous back surgeries, she is fused from S1 - L3 and recently had a spinal cord stimulator implanted to hopefully control back pain she is having due to a disc issue at the L2-2 level. She is also fused in here neck at three levels and will have a shoulder replacement in April. I guess my primary job is helping to take care of her currently. She can't really drive right now because of her shoulder.
We enjoy going to the movies two to three times a week and generally being together. We go to out grandson's soccer games at least once a week. They play on Tuesdays and Thursday or Friday. We have a Bible study on Tuesday so we don't make those games. I think that about covers it.
P.S. Late addition, the grandson's soccer team is number 1 in the state for their class (6A) and number one in the nation.
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Your life has been much more interesting than mine.
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I grew up middle class but my parents were a “mixed” marriage, class wise, so I’ve always been kind of unsure which were my real roots. My mother was the child of European working class immigrants who had settled in the North, and my father's family were professionals and landowners in the South. They were introduced by a mutual acquaintance who thought they were a good match because both were devout Catholics (my father was a convert).
Actually they didn't have much in common beyond their religion, but both wanted to marry and have a family. That, they did quickly; I came along 10 months after the wedding, and was the first of 5. My mother was a smart woman, but she thought she was dumb, due to contrast with my Dad who was closer to brilliant. Mom loved old country peasant food; Dad liked steak and wine. Mom liked polka, Dad liked classical music. Mom was outgoing and had lots of friends, Dad was introverted and a nerd, with few friends but the ones he had were close. (I take after him in that respect.)
So I grew up sensing what turned out to be a permanent tension between the backgrounds of these two people. Visiting mom’s relatives was always like a party, with much joking and belly laughs and free flowing beer. This small immigrant community formed a club, which was basically just a bar with an upstairs community room, and it was on a barstool at the age of five, I had my first taste of beer given to me by my grandfather.
Visiting my father’s relatives on the other hand, had the air of formality at all times. They were all college educated, stoic Protestants, with impeccable manners. They were just as loving as my mother's family, but it was under the surface, hidden below their reserved sophistication.
So I was a half-breed in these settings, never quite fitting in with either one. What I see now is that both these sets of people were good, honest people, and hard workers. And despite my parents’ emotional distance from each other, they too had that work ethic in common, and dedicated themselves to providing the best life they could for their children.
But my father was a bit of a black sheep, having forsaken his family’s Protestantism to become a Papist, and then being a “mere” university professor earning an adequate but not more, salary for his family of seven. Likewise my mother, upon graduating high school and seeking to escape a lower working class future, had finagled a ride to Washington DC, took the Civil Service Exam, and ended up working for the Federal Government, a job she quit when they married. So they both had sort of rebelled against their backgrounds, and were regarded as somewhat outsiders by their respective families, although those families still accepted and loved them and were very accepting of us kids. Like I said, they were all good people.
But Mom never got over the fear of being on the edge of poverty. The Great Depression, during her childhood, had hit her community hard, and I was influenced by this chronic sense of insecurity, like financial catastrophe was always just around the corner, not to mention the threat of nuclear war hanging over us Duck and Cover children. Ironically, these fears are again coming to the forefront of my mind - gee, I wonder why?
I was, like Mom, just a “dumb” girl. I was a weirdo at school, and didn’t fit in there either. There were some years I had not a single friend in my class. I had two obsessions: 1.) Science, especially space travel, and 2.) Babies. All I wanted was to get married and have babies. And I wanted to be an astronaut or maybe a mad scientist in a laboratory. I guess I was an amalgam of my parents' backgrounds. All the women in mom's family just had babies, and focused on the home. From Dad I got the brains and drive for some sort of nerdy career. My whole life ended up being a tense standoff between these two halves of myself.
As a young adult I realized that astronaut was never going to happen. I was very nearsighted for one thing, and by that time I knew I didn’t have “the right stuff” anyway, so I settled for flying a little Cessna 152 instead. However, I ran out of money before I could complete my training.
Being just a dumb girl, I majored in worthless shit until a guy made fun of me for carrying around a calculator (one of the first portable scientific ones). “Haha! She thinks she’s an engineer!” he said. That pissed me off, but I’m grateful to him, because that smacked me upside the head and woke me up. Why can’t I be an engineer? I realized maybe I wasn’t actually stupid after all. I went back for a BS in physics, but changed to engineering after discovering it had better starting salaries.
I was almost 27 before I got my first real engineering job and there I met my husband, also an engineer and also had taken flying lessons but couldn't finish because of being a poor college student. He also claimed he wanted babies, except he phrased it differently: "Progeny to carry on the family name", or some such. Yeah I'll help you with that. It was a match made in heaven. Still is.
So our married life was a sequencing of me working full time, staying home with babies, working again, staying home again and homeschooling one of the kids, and finally now working part time as an independent contractor. We both went back for flying lessons. Hubby got certified, got IR, ME, and we ended up owning three planes in succession of ever greater range. I had to quit flying shortly before the check ride because of medical problems and ended up not bothering with the medical certification after it got too complicated, as I could always fly with hubby anyway. We integrated GA into everything we did as a family.
Unfortunately we had to sell our last plane with a job change and mandatory move across the country, which resulted in a loss of mission, but we are both nearing 70 and had a long and happy flying life, so are refocusing on other things now. Hubby is big in the RC community now, and restoring antique cars, and I'm just doing my contract business.
In early adolescence I hung around kids that we now call "hippies", or "freaks", but it was not their leftist ideology I embraced, just social and cultural trappings. I had read Alexander Solzhenitsyn and I was already firmly innoculated against communism or any kind of economic collectivism. Later, I met a man who introduced me to libertarianism. He became my best friend for life, he happened to be gay, so it was not in any way a romantic relationship. His libertarianism made complete sense with what I'd already started to figure out on my own, for one thing, like Jim, I was reading Heinlein. Then Ayn Rand. I'm now a right-leaning libertarian, not an absolute anarcho-libertarian. I believe in border control for example, and I disagree with the LA Libertarians that recently showed support for allowing illegals to own guns. That's a hard NO. On the practical front I support MAGA populism for the most part.
I suppose the biggest reason I could never be a leftist parasite is my original bifurcated roots: both of which believed in hard work. The immigrants started with nothing and had no choice but to work. They never expected free handouts and didn't get them, unlike the illegals pouring over our border right now. My father's family were successful because they too worked, and instilled responsibility and self sufficiency in their children. And I myself have been working since I was 12 years old when I started babysitting for the neighbors, I worked all through college mostly paying my way, and except for the times in my marriage that I was "just a housewife", continue working to this day. I'm not going to stop until I'm forced to by old age inability.
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Is it a surprise that that those who have been subjected to Number7’s abuse largely have no interest in participating?
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Is it a surprise that that those who have been subjected to Number7’s abuse largely have no interest in participating?
And who would that be?
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And who would that be?
Yourself and Little Joe come to mind.
While I have also been subjected to much of his abuse, I really just don’t have much to say which is not readily available to an internet search. I don’t write under a pseudonym.
Many of the others who have been subject to his abuse in the past appear to have simply left. Tolerating this behavior on his part makes for an echo chamber.
And by “tolerating” I am not advocating that Number7 be in any way officially censored by the moderators. I refer to people having for 9 years now continued to respond to him, positively emoji him, and fail to simply respond in kind with abuse.
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Yourself and Little Joe come to mind.
While I have also been subjected to much of his abuse, I really just don’t have much to say which is not readily available to an internet search. I don’t write under a pseudonym.
Many of the others who have been subject to his abuse in the past appear to have simply left. Tolerating this behavior on his part makes for an echo chamber.
And by “tolerating” I am not advocating that Number7 be in any way officially censored by the moderators. I refer to people having for 9 years now continued to respond to him, positively emoji him, and fail to simply respond in kind with abuse.
I don't participate for my own personal reasons. Some people don't like talking about themselves, and that's fine.
You still complain about people writing under a pseudonym, yet in your own forum you allow people to use pseudonyms. And speaking of echo chambers, how's the traffic on your forum?
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I do think people who use pseudonyms to abuse others are mild cowards. That doesn’t mean it should be banned.
I prefer a system where one can simply block them from one’s own contacts and be rid of them.
I think it is rather clear from behavior in this forum and many others that people are much more prone to be abusive of others and engage in all sorts of logical fallacies when they are writing under a pseudonym. That doesn’t mean everyone does so and we have examples of that here as well.
The primary point in my comment here is that one tends to reap what one tolerates and one sees the results here. Many of the prior posters who might have provided a counterpoint are now gone.
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I think people who pseudonyms to abuse others are cowards. That doesn’t mean it should be banned.
I prefer a system where one can simply block them from one’s own contacts and be rid of them.
You can block people here. So I still don't see the problem.
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You can block people here. So I still don't see the problem.
We have discussed the difference before, right? I think a bi-directional block is preferable. The only thing we have here is muting really.
So for example, while I had in the past just ignored Number7 he would consistently come into threads where I was ignoring him and make abusive posts - just out of the blue. In this sense he behaves like some random homeless guy in a public park who, when you are sitting having a reasonable conversation at a table with your friends, insists on coming over and inserting himself into the conversation. And just won’t leave.
That is essentially the difference between a mute and a bidirectional block. The former allows the homeless guy to keep doing this.
I am not advocating that it needs to be changed though I have advocated for it previously here on PS. But people here apparently prefer it this way.
As I said above, I just note that it will tend to create an environment where many people won’t be particularly interested in participating or disclosing much. It seems people here may like that.
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We have discussed the difference before, right? I think a bi-directional block is preferable. The only thing we have here is muting really.
So for example, while I had in the past just ignored Number7 he would consistently come into threads where I was ignoring him and make abusive posts - just out of the blue. In this sense he behaves like some random homeless guy in a public park who, when you are sitting having a reasonable conversation at a table with your friends, insists on coming over and inserting himself into the conversation. And just won’t leave.
That is essentially the difference between a mute and a bidirectional block. The former allows the homeless guy to keep doing this.
I am not advocating that it needs to be changed though I have advocated for it previously here on PS. But people here apparently prefer it this way.
As I said above, I just note that it will tend to create an environment where many people won’t be particularly interested in participating or disclosing much. It seems people here may like that.
Whatever. So how's your forum doing?
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You know Lucifer, you seem awfully concerned about that. And perhaps a bit touchy about any criticism of what happens here on PS. Why is that?
Is it similar to SCutler over at PoA. Early moderator and so “your baby”? (Perhaps a somewhat unfair comparison as he does not use a pseudonym so he is arguably a bit different.)
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You know Lucifer, you seem awfully concerned about that.
No, just asking.
And perhaps a bit touchy about any criticism of what happens here on PS. Why is that?
Touchy? Hardly.
Is it similar to SCutler over at PoA. Early moderator and so “your baby”? (Perhaps a somewhat unfair comparison as he does not use a pseudonym so he is arguably a bit different.)
Not familiar with whoever that is.
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No, just asking.
Touchy? Hardly.
Not familiar with whoever that is.
I think PoA has an enormous network effect that is very hard to overcome. You see this in how many people get there. New pilots will Google a question, just like I did, and the first few links are often to PoA.
Neither Jim nor I are sure how to more effectively combat that. Suggestions are most welcome!
SCCutler is the oldest standing member of the board at PoA. He is the one who banned me because I was promoting FlyersForum as an alternative and then likely arranged, for the same reason and again without explanation, to ban me from BeechTalk.
He is an open advocate of strong moderation stating that is “because it works”. I am not sure to what extent is incorrect in terms of developing a large audience. I mean a very very large number of people continue to use Facebook despite the fact that they took money from the government to suppress one side of the debates surrounding Covid-19. It may be that the average person just likes the large network effect and convenience of posting some family photos over dealing with people of other points of view.
MeWe is an example of a social media site that is doing fairly well using the bi-directional block model, though its numbers are quite small compared to FB. They have also been around a rather long time.
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You know Lucifer, you seem awfully concerned about that. And perhaps a bit touchy about any criticism of what happens here on PS. Why is that?
Is it similar to SCutler over at PoA. Early moderator and so “your baby”? (Perhaps a somewhat unfair comparison as he does not use a pseudonym so he is arguably a bit different.)
What is your problem with Spike?
Okay, go to PoA and advertise PS and see what happens. They don't take kindly to having that board used to advertise other boards. We;re all here because they did away with their Spin Zone many years ago.
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What is your problem with Spike?
Okay, go to PoA and advertise PS and see what happens. They don't take kindly to having that board used to advertise other boards. We;re all here because they did away with their Spin Zone many years ago.
Huh? Yes, I know the answer to that. Spike did so. Without any warning or explanation.
I certainly don’t agree with him on the use of moderation, as I imagine most of us here don’t, because it normally starts out semi-reasonable and then nowadays is captured by the woke crowd.
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Huh? Yes, I know the answer to that. Spike did so. Without any warning or explanation.
I certainly don’t agree with him on the use of moderation, as I imagine most of us here don’t, because it normally starts out semi-reasonable and then nowadays is captured by the woke crowd.
After what happened with Twitter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the CIA/FBI have someone on the PoA management board.
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After what happened with Twitter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the CIA/FBI have someone on the PoA management board.
Well, since we don’t actually know who owns PoA or the identities of most of the board members, I guess that is more likely.
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After what happened with Twitter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the CIA/FBI have someone on the PoA management board.
Somehow I don't think even the mighty POA registers on the CIA/FBI radar screen.
I'm reminded of the scene between Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan early in the movie where Kathleen finds out that he was Joe Fox.
...
case, and it was yours, and it is a
charming little bookstore. You probably
sell $250,000 worth of book a year --
KATHLEEN
How do you know that?
JOE
I'm in the book business.
KATHLEEN
I'm in the book business --
JOE
Oh, I see, and we're the Price Club.
Only instead of a ten-gallon can of olive
oil for $3.99 that won't even fit into
your kitchen cabinet, we're selling cheap
books. Me a spy.
(beat)
Absolutely. And I managed to get my hands
on a secret printout of the sales figures
of a bookstore so inconsequential and yet
full of its own virtue that I was instantly
compelled to rush over and check it out
for fear it would drive me out of business
--
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Somehow I don't think even the mighty POA registers on the CIA/FBI radar screen.
We are all on their radar.