I’m a veteran.  I find it disgusting when anyone starts smearing vets. 

 You’re not fooling anyone.

Well that is mostly civil. Do you find it disgusting if someone attacks a particular veteran and it is very clear it is a particular attack directed at one specific individual for something that person did?

It strikes me that reasonably one would have to assume either that the particular person didn't deserve it or alternately that all veterans are due some certain level of respect which would preclude making such an attack even if potentially deserved.

Don’t try to twist this.  I’m using YOUR words.  Your inherent disdain for veterans is abhorrent and disgusting.  You can try to deflect this on N7, but it comes from you.

 You’re nothing but a little Rambo wannabe thinking you are so cool walking around with an AR15 at an airport.  Truth be known, if you were in a real combat situation like a veteran endured you would be shitting and pissing yourself while crying for mommy. 

 Keep it up little man.  You’ve revealed your true self here.

Are you going to need to be treated similarly Lucifer?

You seem to be unable to distinguish between someone receiving abuse as retribution for their abuse and my more normal civil treatment of you. Your choice how you want to be treated.

Why do you think these insults apply to you?

Go do the research.  Almost 4 years ago there was massive research on the Georgia issue that exposed the problems.   And you are wrong about it not changing the outcome.

Maybe. But I haven't seen good evidence of that despite some looking at this issue (I have of course been more interested in Maricopa County since I live there). I thought the Heartland Institute report might be a good overview though am skeptical after having been disappointed by prior supposed proofs of fraud. It seems noone here has read it yet and is able to comment on it.

  You tend to deflect away from other election issues and focus on select ones to make your point.   The Arizona 2022 election was a clusterfuck with many irregularities.  The undersized ballots being placed in heavy conservative districts comes to mind as one of them.

You are correct that in my postings I will tend to focus on this issues that make my point. I suspect however that in actual analysis I am quite able to objectively consider the evidence on both sides of an issue.

Agreed the Maricopa election was a mess. It was obviously so on election day. Thus I initially shared the concerns about fairness and security. My primary concerns about security were more than addressed by the massive re-examination effort which failed to show fraudulent ballots being enough to change the outcome.

In terms of fairness I remain concerned, at least in terms of perception of fairness, with the changes to rules for signature verfication which were implemented by Hobbs as well as her supervising an election in which she was a candidate. While Kari Lake did raise those issues in her lawsuit, alas, she had filed them too late and only after she lost so they were time barred.

  I'm going to chime in once again.

   There you go again Pete, another lame attack on veterans.  ...  Why don't you lay off on the veteran smear tactics.

Again Lucifer, those are delivered in Number5 mode. They are in direct response to Number 7's abuse of the other speaker and are designed to be roughly proportional and appropriate given the abuse he has subjected the other speakers on this forum to for 9 years now.

So my counter question would be - why don't you complain about Number7's aggressive abuse of other speakers? I imagine you have your reasons. As I have mine for dealing with Number7 in this this manner.

In simple terms for me, to believe the guy that only rarely came out to campaign, and when he did couldn't attract a thousand people, got 81 millions people to vote for him mean I have to suspend believeability.

The shenanigans, here in Georgia alone, are appalling.

I understand the apparent disconnect there and the suspicion.

However I think there are other more likely explanations than massive fraud, for which there really hasn’t been good evidence despite a lot of looking.

One is as proposed here unlawful actions to bias the results in key places, like Georgia.

The other which may have contributed is that people on the left were all more afraid of Covid at the time and scarcely came out even when Biden did campaign. So it gave a smaller impression of support than was actually there.

Some thoughtful remarks here by all parties (other than Number7, who has had to be treated in Number5 mode again).

Which brings us to Lucifer’s asking about constitutional means and ways to make changes.

Firstly let me say that I think it is important at this juncture to first continue to try all legal and constitutional means. This may not work and people who are interested in liberty should likely begin to consider what is next for at least planning purposes.

Within the constitution obviously we vote. Given the fairly small margins voted in favor of liberty I tend to think that is not likely to work, but perhaps the example of Argentina suggest that when things get bad enough economically an overwhelming fraction of people are willing to throw the bums out.

Then there is nullification. Maybe that is constitutional though the nullification crisis of the 19th century suggests arguably not.

It appears at least nearly all of Texas could secede within the bounds of the Constitution and the law.

There is the Convention of the States. While that is risky, given the current tendencies of some states, it may be worth the risk at this point.

Returning to the OP. I do think that focusing on potentially fraudulent ballots is unlikely to help any of these solutions along. And calling other things, such as unlawful actions by politicians and bureaucrats, fraud or theft leads to a focus in the wrong areas. It also makes liberty minded people who do say that appear like nutcases in the eyes of the average citizen who views these terms much more along the lines of the dictionary definitions. That does not help the cause of liberty.

Yea, that’s the ticket, just vote them out. 

Should be easy to do when they control the voting process.

Who said anything about voting them out? That's sort of my whole point - that is not likely to work very well. Too far gone for that to work with the Federal government I suspect.

fraud /frôd/
noun

A deception practiced in order to induce another to give up possession of property or surrender a right.

A piece of trickery; a trick.

One that defrauds; a cheat

Sounds about right. So how is a politician or a bureaucrat unlawfully changing the rules on an election a deception? Does it even qualify as trickery? (which is usually defined as involving deception).

If this stuff is done out in the open and on the records in an unlawful manner, trying to treat it by trying to ferret out fraudulent ballots being dumped seems quite unlikely to help. What might help is getting rid of the politicians or government responsible. Focusing on ballot cheats seems like a diversion of resources which would be better spent elsewhere.