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Messages - PeterNSteinmetz

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121
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 03:39:21 PM »
  I did.

Did you say how the exceptions applied in this case? Or how they have been adjudicated?

Those were the questions I was asking for enlightenment about.

122
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 03:37:33 PM »
  Nope.  Just using the same tactic you used.

Where did I make an assertion about your state of mind, as you did mine?

Also, this is the tu quoque fallacy.

Quote
I asked you to provide proof to back up your assertion. All you provided was a link (that cost) and asked me to do the research.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were disputing that Trump had been involved in that many lawsuits. I thought you were just asking for some research resources. If you seriously want to dispute that Trump is involved in that many lawsuits, I guess I can easily get you a screen capture pretty easily. I don't think it costs anything at all to run the search but you do have to log in.

123
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 03:23:32 PM »
Apparently the original case was New York Times Co vs. Sullivan. This law firm has a brief explanation. https://www.chicagobusinesslawfirm.com/public-figures-vs-private-figures-which-one-are-you.html

I can see how one might argue Carroll is a public person as someone who " have achieved a role of special prominence in the affairs of society by reason of notoriety of their achievements or vigor and success with which they seek public's attention."

That is why it would be interesting to see whether or how this was argued in this case.

124
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 03:17:35 PM »
  I have.   Go start reading about slander and libel in the law.  There are exceptions.

Yes, that is true there are exceptions. So which aspects of those exceptions would you say apply in this case specifically? And have they been adjudicated in this case? Please enlighten us based on your reading.

125
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 03:15:56 PM »
  As does your speculation and assumptions, and narrow understanding of the law.

Focusing on the characteristics of the speaker again, rather than the issues at hand.

  Really?  I believe you need to get our facts straight.

  You made the statement, you back it up.   

Which parts of my prior statements are in error?

You are seriously disputing that Trump is involved in that number of lawsuits?

126
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 02:54:39 PM »
  So why are all these suits coming about in 2023 and 2024?   The records case says the "crime" took place when Trump left the WH, yet they waited until 2023 (and after Trump announced his run) to seek indictments.
These cases have been going on for a long time. Lawyers have a saying "the wheels of justice grind very finely, but very slowly". The appellate issues had to be resolved before they could return to the defamation case.


 
Quote
He's a high profile public person, and has several businesses.   So yes, he gets sued, a lot. Many high profile people get sued for anything and everything.  Nothing new.
Yes, I don't know if this is atypical for someone at his profile level.

Quote
  Can you provide a link or screen shot of the Pacer?

https://pacer.uscourts.gov/ . You need a sign in and they charge a bit per page but wave the fees under a certain amount. There is also the free http://courtlistener.com which has copies for many of the case of general interest.

127
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 02:50:13 PM »
  Of course she is.  She was a columnist and writer, and known by the public.  She's been in the media eye since 2015 when she started making allegations.  She appears on numerous talk shows and news shows.

  There was evidence that Trump's lawyers tried to introduce as evidence that the judge would not allow.  The evidence would have sank her case, so the judge intervened.   Ask yourself why?

I have not read details regarding the legal standard for being a "public person" under the law for 1st amendment purposes. I also have not read the motions in that case regarding the motion in limine. I suspect neither have you.

So speculating about motive strikes me as uninteresting.

128
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 02:32:19 PM »
Here is another point regarding "lawfare". Why aren't the Republicans doing this as often against a Democratic target?

I assume they are just as motivated by their political interests.

I would suspect it is because Trump is often reckless in his speech and actions. So he attracts these sort of lawsuits. Run his name through Pacer, I think he is named as a defendant in a new case about 20-30 times per month.

129
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 02:29:19 PM »
   Calling a public person a liar is not against the law.  It's called free speech.

   That's why this whole case is nonsense and without merit, being run in a biased court.

I would agree with you if Carroll met the legal standard as a public person under 1st amendment jurisprudence. I don't believe she does as she is not a politician, but there are some exceptions.

Do you know if that matter was adjudicated in this case? I would assume Trump's lawyers would have tried to raise that as a defense.

130
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 02:20:12 PM »
Fair enough but I read the Truth Social post which I understand is the basis of the complaint. Am I wrong?

Here is a summary of the original complaint from the appelate court in the second case - https://casetext.com/case/carroll-v-trump-2

I have not found the original complaint which was in New York Supreme Court.

This is actually somewhat complicated but interesting. As that article notes, the primary basis of the defamation claim is that Trump called her a liar. As they also note, whether that is a false statement depends on whether her allegation is true. If it is, then Trump calling her a liar is a false statement which could damage her reputation as an advice columnist and journalist.

Since she had won her second case back in 2023, the one including the claim that Trump assaulted and raped her, the court in examining the defamation case decided as a matter of law that Trump was making a false statement in his post calling her a liar, because the jury had found Trump guilty of sexually abusing and defaming Carroll. The only judgement call involved in that is whether the jury finding him guilty of sexually abusing Carroll and defaming her constituted 'rape', the statement about which Trump said was lie.

This sort of subtle difference in language and the potential legal meaning of one's words was why it was very unwise of Trump to reply, I assume without legal advice. I think a lawyer in denying the allegations would have used words like 'Mr. Trump completely denies Ms. Carroll's allegations or any wrongdoing" rather than saying she was a liar.

I actually think there is a meaningful distinction between 'rape' and 'sexual assault' so he may have decent grounds for appeal of the summary judgement on that. He will have some difficulty because of all the other statements he made, which while not defamatory, don't make him look like the kind of person trying to make this fine distinction.

131
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 01:54:16 PM »
You seem uncomfortable with that.

Not at all. But I do note that I have not read the complaint in the defamation case and I suspect you have not either.

Thus the real problem here is that neither of us knows the exact legal status of the statements that were alleged to be defamatory or how the various motions played out. I would suggest it is best to know these things before becoming too upset about the issue one way or the other.

132
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 01:49:00 PM »
   What?   Who is attacking anyone?

   Oh, I do call bullshit on you stating my reply is a strawman.  I stated facts of the case.   You seem uncomfortable with that.

Not at all. Let's be objective here:

How do you seriously see nothing wrong with lawfare?

I never said there was nothing wrong with it. Strawman.

You seem to want to legitimize the use of lawfare, and now you want to see first amendment rights taken away.

Two strawmen in that, each clause is a separate one. I never asserted either.

I also note that if one states an argument is a strawman and it is not, that is a logical error, but it is not a strawman fallacy in any direct sense.

133
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 01:37:29 PM »
  Peter,

   You are really off base here.   You seem to want to legitimize the use of lawfare, and now you want to see first amendment rights taken away.

  Like it or not, outside of a biased political court, E. Jean Carroll is a public person just like Trump.   She garners no special treatment, and Trump like every other citizen has a right to free speech, even if politicized courts disagree.

   Look at Trump.  How many public people have gone into the media and called him names, made absolutely false statements and smeared him?  If he took any of these people to court, with the evidence in hand of the defamation the case would be tossed out immediately.
Let’s avoid the attacks on the speaker, shall we. These are all strawman arguments.

134
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 01:36:17 PM »


  Lawfare is a breakdown of our legal system, a weaponization to be used against political opposition.   Lawfare is practiced by totalitarian regimes.   How do you seriously see nothing wrong with lawfare?

I did not claim that. I just think that it is preferable to warfare, which is how political disputes are often settled when the political system breaks down.

135
Spin Zone / Re: Question:
« on: February 05, 2024, 01:25:15 PM »
Imagine, claiming innocence when you’ve been accused of a crime is now “defaming” the accuser.
I think it really does merit reading the complaint before drawing this sort of conclusion.

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